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Better offensive teams then the Patriots. (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter SR388
- Start date
shining path
:prettyplease:
None of those were better that the current pats.
footballjunkie
Footballguy
-Crippler-
Footballguy
SR388
Footballguy
All this crap about the Patriots being the best offense ever is bothering me now. How come everything nowadays is the "Best Ever"? I have several reasons why I do not think they are even close to the best team ever, much less the best offense ever. To just be quick about it, I don't think their defense is I want to hear from others to see how far this lunacy has spread.
The Pats are running up the score. Calling TO's in the 4th quarter when up by 21+ on more then one occasion, two TD's in the last few minutes. I'm not debating on if it should or shouldn't be done here. I'm just stating the fact that I have never seen another team purposely run up the score like the Pats have. I'm 100% sure some of the past teams could have run up the score more then they did. The Pats are really not holding back till the final second comes off the clock. Their defense is so schematically ahead of other teams it's crazy. BB may indeed be the best modern day coach that has ever walked the gridiron. For Tom Brady and Co., it's awfully easy to abuse a defense that has been out there all day long because their offense. Not only are they already performing well against them, they keep throwing into the 4th quarter when the other team's defense has been on the field all day because their O couldn't stay on the field.
The teams the Pats are facing aren't even in the same league as some of the past generations teams. There was no salary cap. Teams used to be loaded with talent. Now with FA and the salary cap, all the teams throughout the league are watered down. It's next to impossible to be loaded at every position like teams in the past.
Im not stating this as fact, just giving my opinion.
The Pats are running up the score. Calling TO's in the 4th quarter when up by 21+ on more then one occasion, two TD's in the last few minutes. I'm not debating on if it should or shouldn't be done here. I'm just stating the fact that I have never seen another team purposely run up the score like the Pats have. I'm 100% sure some of the past teams could have run up the score more then they did. The Pats are really not holding back till the final second comes off the clock. Their defense is so schematically ahead of other teams it's crazy. BB may indeed be the best modern day coach that has ever walked the gridiron. For Tom Brady and Co., it's awfully easy to abuse a defense that has been out there all day long because their offense. Not only are they already performing well against them, they keep throwing into the 4th quarter when the other team's defense has been on the field all day because their O couldn't stay on the field.
The teams the Pats are facing aren't even in the same league as some of the past generations teams. There was no salary cap. Teams used to be loaded with talent. Now with FA and the salary cap, all the teams throughout the league are watered down. It's next to impossible to be loaded at every position like teams in the past.
Im not stating this as fact, just giving my opinion.
timschochet
Footballguy
Sorrry, this comes from a true Pats hater, as many of you know- but this is the greatest offense ever, at least after 8 games. Only the 89 49ers approach it, and they were IMO the greatest team ever- until now...
SR388
Footballguy
WHY?
Sorry, but those teams were not as good as the Patriots.
Jimmy James
Footballguy
I think it's absurd to consider this question prior to the end of the season.
SR388
Footballguy
Only the niners approach what? The statistic of most points scored? So because they have scored the most points ever so far, they are the best offense?The 72 Dolphins are the only team in history to go undefeated. Outside of Florida, you won't find another person claiming they are the best ever.
Jimmy James
Footballguy
I don't think that's true at all. I think that to many, a criteria for even being in the conversation is being undefeated. That leaves a party of one at this point.
bryhamm
Footballguy
what are you using for your definition. i am not sure about after 8 games, but he 99 rams had more points after 7 games I believe.
Statorama
Footballguy
The only thing that stops this team from being the greatest offensive machine ever built is an injury to Brady. You're watching greatness happen right before your eyes, and you'll feel a lot better about it if you embrace it rather than fight it.
I hate the Patriots like Paul hates Yoko, but even I can see that this team is just an unstoppable force right now.
I hate the Patriots like Paul hates Yoko, but even I can see that this team is just an unstoppable force right now.
SR388
Footballguy
Now imagine they tried to run up the score in every game they played like the Pats are CLEARLY doing this year.Im not saying they shouldn't or if it's right. But they are in fact trying to score as many points as possible. No other team in history has tried to do what the Pats are doing this year. Sure they might have ran it up against certain rivals, but not vs winless scrubs such as Miami.
SR388
Footballguy
Im not hating on them. They are amazing, they really are. I still stand by my original statement. I would take so many more offenses over this current Pats offense.
![[scooter]](/data/avatars/m/22/22287.jpg?1659477690){kind=avatar}
[scooter]
Footballguy
They had a cake schedule and put up 33 points per game (not even top 5 all time). The Pats have a much tougher schedule and are scoring well over 40 points per game.Brady will post better stats than Warner, and Moss & Welker will put up better stats than Bruce & Holt.
bulger2holt
Footballguy
The Rams always pulled Faulk in the 4th quarter when they had a big lead. The always ran the ball with a backup just to run the clock out.
redman
Footballguy
I do think it's a valid point that some of these points by the Pats appear to be getting scored as part of a conscious effort to break records rather than "organically" as part of an effort to win, only. I can't think of another NFL team that has done this. And no, there's no bright line for "organic" versus intentional scoring of points, but "I know it when I see it".
Gibbs is known for not running up the score in the second half of blowouts, which makes his 1983 and 1991 offenses especially impressive.
And no, I'm not bashing here - the Pats have an amazing team, especially on offense.
Gibbs is known for not running up the score in the second half of blowouts, which makes his 1983 and 1991 offenses especially impressive.
And no, I'm not bashing here - the Pats have an amazing team, especially on offense.
eom
Footballguy
yeah, while we're debating the best ever offenses, could we add in the extra dimension of top 3 defense?
note: while it's probably actually the league's best d, I'll let you pats haters slide w/a top 3 ranking just so you don't have a stroke.
and could you nitwits try to get over this 'omg running up the score!!' nonsense I keep reading in every thread?
seriously --- do any of you pats haters even watch football, or do you just hop on message boards to stir #### up?
note: while it's probably actually the league's best d, I'll let you pats haters slide w/a top 3 ranking just so you don't have a stroke.
and could you nitwits try to get over this 'omg running up the score!!' nonsense I keep reading in every thread?
seriously --- do any of you pats haters even watch football, or do you just hop on message boards to stir #### up?
[scooter]
Footballguy
But at the same time, they are easing back and playing their 2nd (and 3rd) stringers in the 4th quarter. So yeah, they're running up the score -- with Cassel and Eckel.With that in mind, you shouldn't be dismissing "total points" so quickly. Just think how many points they're leaving on the field. If they had played Brady/Moss/Welker/Stallworth/Maroney full-out for 4 quarters, they would have put up 70 points on Washington. Easily.
And that's what makes them the best offensive team in modern history.
Neil Beaufort Zod
Footballguy
The 2007 Patriots have only won eight games. That's not terribly impressive. Perhaps we should wait until the season is over to determine where they fall in the best-ever category?
SR388
Footballguy
ninerfanatic492000
Footballguy
ok ok. i am the 'cliche' 49er fan who still lives in the 80's-early 90's. i've got tapes of the damn niners from before there historic beatdown of the broncos.
New englands offense may not have the overall 'firepower' of the great niners team but the freak'n efficiency of the patriots is just freak'n insane. Montana was the epitome of efficient-but he never put together a year like Brady is now.
i also believe brady could have put up season's similar to this one before but he didn't have the offensive weapons(salary cap and FA issue that the great niners didn't have to deal with).
what also helps that patriots that they among all those great offenses listed-they prolly have the best defense out of the group. the pats are near the lead league scoring aloud and more IMPORTANTLY they lead the league in 3rd Down defense. they simply play less defense than anyone else b/c they stop everyone on 3rd down. thus giving their highly potent the ball even more chances.
Best Defense+Best offense+best gameplanning HC in NFL= unstoppable juggernaut
New englands offense may not have the overall 'firepower' of the great niners team but the freak'n efficiency of the patriots is just freak'n insane. Montana was the epitome of efficient-but he never put together a year like Brady is now.
i also believe brady could have put up season's similar to this one before but he didn't have the offensive weapons(salary cap and FA issue that the great niners didn't have to deal with).
what also helps that patriots that they among all those great offenses listed-they prolly have the best defense out of the group. the pats are near the lead league scoring aloud and more IMPORTANTLY they lead the league in 3rd Down defense. they simply play less defense than anyone else b/c they stop everyone on 3rd down. thus giving their highly potent the ball even more chances.
Best Defense+Best offense+best gameplanning HC in NFL= unstoppable juggernaut
Tau837
Footballguy
I think this is a difficult question for some people because some people define better/best with statistics and others do it subjectively. Personally, I'd say some of the great offensive teams may not have seemed as statistically dominant because they didn't have to score as many points to win... but they could have if needed.
I think the early 90s Cowboys, 99-01 Rams, late 80s 49ers, and the 15-1 Vikings team, in no particular order, were better off the top of my head. Two things were different about those teams so far - (1) they could dominate running or passing, whereas the Pats haven't shown that they can do it with the running game (yet); and (2) they sustained it for an entire season, which the Pats haven't done (yet).
I also think if it were possible to adjust for era that some of Lombardi's Packers teams and Jim Brown's Browns teams might rank up there... I mean, different styles clearly, but perhaps just as dominant. (I'm not really sure, it was before my time.)
I think the early 90s Cowboys, 99-01 Rams, late 80s 49ers, and the 15-1 Vikings team, in no particular order, were better off the top of my head. Two things were different about those teams so far - (1) they could dominate running or passing, whereas the Pats haven't shown that they can do it with the running game (yet); and (2) they sustained it for an entire season, which the Pats haven't done (yet).
I also think if it were possible to adjust for era that some of Lombardi's Packers teams and Jim Brown's Browns teams might rank up there... I mean, different styles clearly, but perhaps just as dominant. (I'm not really sure, it was before my time.)
gianmarco
Footballguy
Forget the #'s for a second. When you watch the Pats out on the field right now, there just doesn't seem to be a single thing that can stop them. Not a single defense, not a single player, nothing. Even when Brady was having an "off" day last week, Moss still went and just snagged every ball out of the air anyway. I don't think there is a defense in the league right now that could keep the Pats from putting up 30+ pts in any week. And I don't think there's an offense that can put up 30 on the Pats right now with the exception of Indy. Let me also remind those that are saying the Pats are running up the score: They've put up the majority of their points in the 1st half of their games. While they keep trying to score in the 2nd half of these "games", it's at a much lower intensity. I really think we could see these guys put up 70-80 pts in a given week if they really wanted to.
Dude,Cassel has played 1.5 quarters this season! Check the stats. Before last week, he had taken 2 kneeldown snaps.
Yes, the Pats are great, probably one of the best offenses ever. But they are playing differently than other teams in history. As so many others have mentioned, I have never seen a coach this smart work so hard to rack up stats and break records. It's great for fantasy football (if you own a Pat), but the guy is willing to increase his risk of injury just to tell the rest of the league to go to hell. When Tom Brady breaks a collarbone up by 40 with 3 minutes left in the game some week, it will be interesting to see how Pats fans react. Will it still be "just football" at that point?
Just as a recent example, for all the drooling Brady lovers who seem to have no sense of history, how many TD's would LT have scored last year if he would have played as deep into the game as Brady is? Would you have thought the Chargers we "just playing football" when LT scored his 5 or 6 TD's three weeks in a row with the team up by 45 points?
And yes, I have become a hater this year. I was not before this year, and rooted for them last year, but cheating and running up the score have turned me into a card carrying member of the "would someone just hit them really hard" club. They have no class - the entire team, no matter how pretty Brady looks. Moss is a perfect fit.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
It it hard to say, because many of those other great offenses could have scored points at will like the Patriots are doing right now, but they didn't have a head coach who is trying to set as many records as possible at the cost of sportsmanship.
I will point out the '98 Broncos. I remember a game against the Eagles, where the score was something like 41-3 at the half. Elway and Terrell Davis barely played in the second half (and they might not have played at all). Realistically, the Broncos probably could have won that game 70-10 if they had wanted to, but Shanny called the dogs off and just played out the string in the second half.
I will point out the '98 Broncos. I remember a game against the Eagles, where the score was something like 41-3 at the half. Elway and Terrell Davis barely played in the second half (and they might not have played at all). Realistically, the Broncos probably could have won that game 70-10 if they had wanted to, but Shanny called the dogs off and just played out the string in the second half.
Your argument against greatest ever is because they score too much late in the games? There's no quit in them? Their Defense is good, so it's unfair to compare? What is different about this team is that they're doing nothing special on offense. They just line up and their players beat you, play after play. The 9ers were innovative, as were the 98 broncos. This team is just more talented and better coached so the execution level matches the talent level. What they're doing is historic, no matter how you analyze it.
Yeah, remember how they tried to run it up in the Superbowl? That game aside, didn't they set some records with Marshall Faulk back then?
E-A-G-L-E-S
Footballguy
Rule changes have continued to favor the offense. The rules for DBs bumping WRs were different when those 49ers, Broncos, Rams etc played. It is hard to compare teams of different eras
Also the record of the Pats opponents so far is something like 15-30
Also the record of the Pats opponents so far is something like 15-30
Assani Fisher
Footballguy
none, although the stats might not indicate it at the end of the year due to teh Pats having to play a bunch of cold weather games.
Assani Fisher
Footballguy
For as much flack as the Pats are getting for an "easy schedule", those Rams had a ridiculously easy schedule. Plus they played in a dome.
Assani Fisher
Footballguy
Wrong on the first one.
Assani Fisher
Footballguy
The 1992 Cowboys scored 409 pointsThe 1991 Redskins scored 485 points
Advantage: Redskins
The 1992 Cowboys let up 243 points
The 1991 Redskins let up 224 points
Advantage: Redskins
The 1992 Cowboys were 13-3 with all 3 losses coming in games they fully tried to win
The 1991 Redskins were 14-2 including a meaningless week 17 loss
Advantage: Redskins
The 1992 Cowboys worst game was a 31-7 loss in which they were thoroughly dominated
The 1991 Redskins biggest loss was a 3pt loss in which their opponent caught a hail mary and recovered an onside kick
Advantage: Redskins
The 1992 Cowboys gained 5718 total yards on offense
The 1991 Redskins gained 5820 total yards on offense
Advantage: Redskins
The 1992 Cowboys allowed 4278 total yards on defense
The 1991 Redskins allowed 4638 total yards on defense
Advantage: Cowboys
The 1992 Cowboys intercepted 17 passes
The 1991 Redskins intercepted 27 passes
Advantage: Redskins
The 1992 Cowboys threw 15 interceptions
The 1991 Redskins threw 11 interceptions
Advantage: Redskins
The 1992 Cowboys forced and recovered 21 fumbles
The 1991 Redskins forced and recovered 24 fumbles
Advantage: Redskins
The 1992 Cowboys fumbled and lost the ball 19 times
The 1991 Redskins fumbled and lost the ball 16 times
Advantage: Redskins
The 1992 Cowboys had 6 pro bowlers
The 1991 Redskins had 7 pro bowlers
Advantage: Redskins
The 1992 Cowboys had 44 sacks
The 1991 Redskins had 50 sacks
Advantage: Redskins
The 1992 Cowboys gave up 23 sacks
The 1991 Redskins gave up 9 sacks
Advantage: Redskins
The 1992 Cowboys averaged 18.891 yards per kickoff return
The 1991 Redskins averaged 18.897 yards per kickoff return
Advantage: Redskins
The 1992 Cowboys allowed 20.3 yards per kickoff return
The 1991 Redskins allowed 17.5 yards per kickoff return
Advantage: Redskins
The 1992 Cowboys averaged 12.5 yards per punt return
The 1991 Redskins averaged 13.3 yards per punt return
Advantage: Redskins
The 1992 Cowboys allowed 11.7 yards per punt return
The 1991 Redskins allowed 6.1 yards per punt return
Advantage: Redskins
The 1992 Cowboys averaged 43.0 yards per punt
The 1991 Redskins averaged 39.8 yards per punt
Advantage: Cowboys
The 1992 Cowboys made 24/35 field goals(68%)
The 1991 Redskins made 31/43 field goals(72%)
Advantage: Redskins
ESPN.com writer, Eddie Epstein came up with a forumla called "adjusted power index" which basically ranks all teams taking all factors into consideration. He explains his formula here.
The 1992 Cowboys did not make the list of top 10 all time
The 1991 Redskins had the 5th highest ranking of all time
Advantage: Redskins
Assani Fisher
Footballguy
The Pats points in the 1st half of games this year:24
42
21
20
17
17
24
14
179 total, which comes out to 22.375 per half, which comes out to 44.75 per game.
I'd be interested in someone doing this analysis for the other great offenses.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
I don't understand this sentiment at all. Before this year I would have said Montana was better and you could have made the old Montana/Marino argument with Brady/Manning..... but now? Brady is well on his way to carving out his niche as the best QB of all time. He's got a lot of rings and counting and now he's putting up the stats. He's the NFL MVP in a landslide at the half way point.
Assani Fisher
Footballguy
What???!!!I'm young(25), so I havn't seen as much football as some, but in my honest opinion Brady is the best football player I've ever seen.
Jason Wood
Zoo York
A lot can happen in the final 8 games of the season, so it's really unfair to compare the Patriots place in history until the season has finished up. But, since the thread seems to have some legs to it, let's look at this objectively, strictly a comparison of the numbers:Through their first 8 games:
2140 yards passing
934 yards rushing
331 pointsProrating those numbers would yield a season of:
6,148 yards from scrimmage
662 pointsThe Pats 6,148 yards wouldn't be close to the all-time marks (St. Louis '00, Miami '84 and San Francisco '98).
However, their points scored would demolish the Vikings current record of 556 by a wide margin.
So really the argument becomes, which is the better barometer of offensive dominance? Points scored or total yards? I, for one, think tie clearly goes to points scored (that's how you win games); but if you want to argue otherwise, so be it.
IMHO, the only team that really is in the argument here is St. Louis in 2000. They are the only team to rank in the top 3 ALL TIME in yards and points for a season. First in points, 3rd in yards.
Jason Wood
Zoo York
And I keep seeing the '99 Rams mentioned...that wasn't the best Rams offense, the '00 vintage was better (most yards in NFL history, 3rd most points in league history).
