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Beware of Kevin Jones this season... (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Da Guru
- Start date
Calhoun is a officially a wasted 3rd round pick.
Anthony Borbely
Footballguy
He played at a very high level last year before being hurt, and at a very high level the 2nd half of his rookie season. His issue is not talent, it's staying healthy.
swirvenirvin
Footballguy
He was also a RBAnthony Borbely said:
Anthony Borbely
Footballguy
He used to be listed as a RB, and mainly before Martz got here, but now he is a fullback. Bryson was not going to play RB this year had he stayed.swirvenirvin said:
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Anthony Borbely
Footballguy
Westbrook is one, but he didn't have the serious lisfranc fracture than KJ had. But I believe Dunn had the serious lisfranc injury and he seemed to do fine.
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Warhogs
Footballguy
I would like to get a few names to examine how successful they were. For some reason it seems to me that about 10 years ago most RBs that had this happen were never the same. I know that was a long while ago with medical advancements so I am just trying to get a list of more recent cases and how quickly and successfully they came back. I did not recall any names so those would seem like two successful cases.
Anthony Borbely
Footballguy
I don't know of any other RBs, although there may have been some. They are much more advanced in treating it and a key seems to be how soon they diagnose it and get the player into surgery. KJ's was diagnosed right away. Comparing an unsuccessful diagnosis is LB Teddy Lehman, who was not diagnosed correctly for 3 weeks, and he has never been the same since. They think the time is critical to full recovery.
Warhogs
Footballguy
I'm not sure on these names but I thought Duce Staley had this. I'm not sure he ever had a decent season after it? I seem to remember a RB with Clev. or TB several years ago that had a career ended basically from lis franc but can't remember a name. I'm not sure if there are any others at Rb who have had this?
Foosball God
Foos
Duce did have the serious lisfranc and he was not the same afterwards. Duce could not afford to lose even a half step though. I think KJ could still perform if he loses a little but it's still an uphill climb.
Ron_Mexico
I Love Doggies
Calhoun will make the team, GUARANTEED.I will wager large sums on this.Ilov80s said:Calhoun is a officially a wasted 3rd round pick.
Anthony Borbely
Footballguy
You should be more conservative about that. He is far from a lock to make the team.Calhoun will make the team, GUARANTEED.I will wager large sums on this.Ilov80s said:Calhoun is a officially a wasted 3rd round pick.
The Man with the Plan
Footballguy
Duce Staley suffered this injury during the 2000 season. In the 2001 season he was the a top 20 (20) rb while splitting carries with Correll Buckhalter) and in the next season 2002 he was a top 15 running back(15).Warrick Dunn had the same injury in the 2003 and was ranked 12th and 15th the next two seasons.
If those two guys are any indication then Kevin Jones should be alright. I'm not the biggest Kevin Jones fan but a player of his ability being drafted where he is is the very epitome of value. A surefire starting running back with top 20, possibly top 10 potential available in the 7th round? I'll take that.
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Warhogs
Footballguy
Thanks. I have been strongly considering trying to get K Jones cheap in a dynasty auction draft but the lis franc injury has made me hesitant.
Sack-Religious
Footballguy
I believe the other guy you're referring to is Errict Rhett. He was solid his first two seasons in TB, and then a series of injuries limited his career, culminating in the Lis Franc injury while playing for Cleveland in the 2000 season. That was 6 years ago though, so there might have been significant progress made in the treatment and correction of this type of injury.From what other posters have said, Staley and Dunn both seem to have recovered quite well from similar injuries, although I think KJones' was more severe.
Anthony Borbely
Footballguy
KJ had the same injury that Dunn did.
The Man with the Plan
Footballguy
No. Not really. Football's a rough sport. Most running backs don't play 16 games unless they're named LaDainian Tomlinson (and even he's missed a game or was affected by injury). When Kevin Jones does play most of the time he's been pretty good. Now that he's getting drafted in the 7th round or at a low price in auction drafts the injury risk isn't nearly as high as it was in the past. If he plays like Kevin Jones (I think he will) that's great. If not it's not a terrible loss.
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benson_will_lead_the_way
Footballguy
That is true in a PPR, but in a non ppr he is horrid. The guy has a bad YPC and injury issues and doesn't make it into the endzone often enough to be considered a top 10-15 RB.
Ron_Mexico
I Love Doggies
I respectfully disagree.Maybe you should be more conservative aboutyour claim that Calhoun has a slim to none chance of making the teamif KJ is placed on PUP.Regardless of KJ's PUP status,Calhoun will not be cut, imo.You should be more conservative about that. He is far from a lock to make the team.Calhoun will make the team, GUARANTEED.I will wager large sums on this.Ilov80s said:
The Man with the Plan
Footballguy
But for his injured foot in which caused him to miss the last four games Kevin Jones would have easily been a top 10 running back in. 8 touchdowns in 12 games not enough for you? You must be pretty hard to please. He averages 4.1 yards a carry for his career. Not great but not terrible either. He averaged 4.7 ypc his rookie season and then under 4 the past two seasons. The offensive line may be partly to blame for that though. If Kevin Jones can come back from this injury (as other running backs were able to) and do what he did last year he'll be a worth a starting spot in any league, PPR or otherwise.
benson_will_lead_the_way
Footballguy
The thing is that I was a huge KJ backer from his days at VTech, him and Lee Suggs. I thought he was going to be a great back in the NFL. However, I just haven't seen the same RB since.Career wise 4.1 is average(after all its what Benson averaged last year and apparently he is a piece of *&%) and his TD numbers have always been low.
But the past two years he looks slower and his YPC have been horrible.
I wish the best for him and I used to believe in him....but that left once I saw an average back in the NFL.
Maybe he will come back faster from the injury, think Steve Smith after his broken leg.
Ron_Mexico
I Love Doggies
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I don't think KJ will ever be the same after the Lisfranc fracture.
Sack-Religious
Footballguy
They all had Lis Franc injuries. However, by all accounts Kevin Jones' was a very severe Lisfranc injury (on a scale of 1-3, it was acategorized as a 3+ by the Lions head athletic trainer), whereas Dunn's may have been less severe. Staley's, I've seen categorized as a "severe Lisfranc fracture" so if we're comparing injuries I'd venture that KJones' injury was probably similar to Staley's.
His YPC has been low the past two years. But, in the 3-4 games that I saw last year, I thought he looked very good. He was elusive, quick, fast and powerful. Probably to a fault, as his reluctance to go down caused him to lay the ball on the ground a few too many times fighting for yards. But, the guy was taking a lot of contact early and finding ways to get positive yards. I was actually impressed with how he looked with the ball in his hands last year. Martz definately saw him as a guy he wanted to get the ball to 20 times a game. I thought he was coming into his own last year and if he comes back healthy, expect more of what we saw last year.
The Man with the Plan
Footballguy
I agree. However average though he may be, he's also shown himself to be a pretty productive player (especially last season).In the end it always comes back to the value. Last year people were talking about him in the second round. I was like that's crazy and he isn't all that. Last year it was a choice between Brian Westbrook and Kevin Jones or Willie Parker and Kevin Jones. Such comparisons sound crazy now but this time last season that's exactly what was going on.
This year he's a 7th round pick. Look at what he was able to accomplish last season and the fact that he is for sure the starter for his team. For me that makes between him or guys like Fred Taylor, Lamont Jordan, or Brandon Jackson or anyone else in between really not much of a choice at all.
Anthony Borbely
Footballguy
KJ was 10th in one of my leagues in PPG last year, and it was a non PPR. He gets enough total yards to make it.
Anthony Borbely
Footballguy
I can only go by what I hear around here, and Cason has the edge over Calhoun right now for the last RB spot because of being a lot better on special teams. The Lions are not as high on him right now as the fantasy world is. It isn't helping that he can't play yet. He is a candidate to be put on IR.I respectfully disagree.Maybe you should be more conservative aboutyour claim that Calhoun has a slim to none chance of making the teamif KJ is placed on PUP.Regardless of KJ's PUP status,Calhoun will not be cut, imo.You should be more conservative about that. He is far from a lock to make the team.Calhoun will make the team, GUARANTEED.I will wager large sums on this.Ilov80s said:Calhoun is a officially a wasted 3rd round pick.
Anthony Borbely
Footballguy
Kevin Jones played great last year. His YPC is a reflection of the offensive line rather than his play. The Lions had 12 players who started 2 or more games on the offensive line, and that is only the 2 guard spots and right tackle. There were several games with three 3rd stringers starting. The line was terrible from start to end and the RBs just didn't have holes to run through. If the line had been good, KJ played to a level that would have equated to at least a 4.5 YPC. His performance last year can't be judged by just stats. Seeing him play, you can tell how well he played and how hard he ran. All of those short yardage numbers and YPC numbers are meaningless in this case, because the line was a disaster...nobody can run when the middle of the line gets pushed into the backfield.As far as him looking slower last year, I think it was the opposite. He was fast and hitting holes last year...the rare times there were holes to hit.TME said:
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So we're all settled in a concensus then? The OP is wrong, and we should draft KJ in rounds 4-5, and expect big numbers from the season opener onwards, correct? Glad we're in agreement, fellas...
Ron_Mexico
I Love Doggies
Best of luck with him.This LFF injury just keeps lingering.I think his best days are behind him.
Anthony Borbely
Footballguy
They said the same thing about Dunn and Staley and they both played at a high level after the injury...and both had the same serious lisfranc injury that Jones had. I'm not worried at all long term.So we're all settled in a concensus then? The OP is wrong, and we should draft KJ in rounds 4-5, and expect big numbers from the season opener onwards, correct? Glad we're in agreement, fellas...
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Restricted
Footballguy
http://www.mlive.com/lions/index.ssf/2007/...g_jones_ou.html
Lions plan on holding Jones out first six games of the regular season
Lions plan on holding Jones out first six games of the regular season
Routilla
Footballguy
Well there you go, grab Bell and don't look back.
Anthony Borbely
Footballguy
That is not official yet...just making sure people know. However, Kowalski is usually spot on and I'm taking it as fact right now. This is not a surprise to me, so it changes nothing in my approach.
Routilla
Footballguy
I should have been more transparent. I would make sure everyone knows about it in my league and then look to get KJ late. Bell will likely move up now in ADP and depending how high that is, KJ could be the value play. I wouldn't mind grabbing them both as my #4RB if I could get Bell around 7th and KJ around 11th.
Anthony Borbely
Footballguy
It really doesn't matter if you are transparent, because everyone will have differing opinions. I don't want either unless they slide...and KJ will have more value because he will slide more. I have both in separate leagues.
I hope Bell plays better than he did last night. He looked indecisive hitting the holes.
Hipple Long Ware & Peete
Footballguy
Da Guru 
Tom Kowalski
Tom Kowalski
Anthony Borbely
Footballguy
Kowalski is clearly the best of the Lion beat writers in my opinion.Da Guru
They said the same thing about Dunn and Staley and they both played at a high level after the injury...and both had the same serious lisfranc injury that Jones had. I'm not worried at all long term.
All this business about who has a more serious lisfranc injury is kind of silly. These injuries are all pretty serious. The key to recovery is more based on early diagnosis, good care, and rehab as well as the players make-up and skill and less to do with the "seriousness of the injury." Ex. Willis Magahee and Frank Gore have recovered quite well from serious knee injuries while other RB have not. I have no clue how KJ would do and am pretty sure he would have been better off without the injury but I think to try to compare him more to Staley then to Dunn is not appropriate.
Anthony Borbely
Footballguy
From the things I have read...early diagnosis is the number one factor in how well they recover. Lehman had the same injury, but wasn't diagnosed for 3 weeks, and he has struggled mightily. KJ was diagnosed right away, and he is WAY ahead of schedule thus far in his recovery. The Lions think he will be fully recovered or close to it by the time he is eligible to be removed from the PUP list.They said the same thing about Dunn and Staley and they both played at a high level after the injury...and both had the same serious lisfranc injury that Jones had. I'm not worried at all long term.So we're all settled in a concensus then? The OP is wrong, and we should draft KJ in rounds 4-5, and expect big numbers from the season opener onwards, correct? Glad we're in agreement, fellas...
Best of luck with him.This LFF injury just keeps lingering.I think his best days are behind him.
All this business about who has a more serious lisfranc injury is kind of silly. These injuries are all pretty serious. The key to recovery is more based on early diagnosis, good care, and rehab as well as the players make-up and skill and less to do with the "seriousness of the injury." Ex. Willis Magahee and Frank Gore have recovered quite well from serious knee injuries while other RB have not. I have no clue how KJ would do and am pretty sure he would have been better off without the injury but I think to try to compare him more to Staley then to Dunn is not appropriate.
bcr8f
Footballguy
When will be eligible to be removed?
Anthony Borbely
Footballguy
I'm not sure if it is 6 games or 6 weeks. The Lions have a bye in week 6.
Righetti
Footballguy
Running back Kevin Jones is using heat acupuncture to help him recover from a Lisfranc injury to his left foot, a tearing of the tissues that connect the bones in the middle of the foot. "It's not conventional or traditional," Jones told the Detroit Free Press. "I just was willing to try kind of like anything because I was, you know, hurting. That's one of the reasons my recovery is speeding up so good."
Righetti
Footballguy
Kevin Jones uses unconventional heat acupuncture to get back on field
August 14, 2007
BY NICHOLAS J. COTSONIKA
FREE PRESS SPORTS WRITER
In the off-season, maybe three days a week, Lions running back Kevin Jones would drive to Saline to see someone about his injured foot. He wasn't going to a high-tech treatment center; he was going to an Asian man's basement. This wasn't state-of-the-art; this was martial arts.
Jones would lie on an examining table. The man would say a prayer, then hold his hands over a little box. The box contained a flame. The man would absorb the heat in his hands, then put his hands on Jones' foot and project the heat to the injured area, laser-like. Swelling and pain would subside.
Advertisement
Heat acupuncture. Sound strange? Well, it sounded strange to Jones, too, at first. But he was injured, and he did what he had to do. And now he swears by it.
"It's not conventional or traditional," Jones said with a laugh Monday, after going through conventional and traditional rehab at Lions headquarters. "I just was willing to try kind of like anything because I was, you know, hurting. ... That's one of the reasons why my recovery is speeding up so good."
Jones was trying to score Dec. 10 at Minnesota when he planted his left foot and was stopped just short of the goal line. His foot stuck in the turf and twisted. He suffered a Lisfranc injury -- a tearing of the tissues that connect the bones in the middle of the foot.
In surgery three days later, doctors put three pins in the foot to hold together the bones so the structures around them could heal in place. No one could say for certain when he would be able to play again. He went stage-by-stage -- no weight on the foot, walking boot, regular shoe, another surgery to remove two of the pins -- while the Lions brought in running backs Tatum Bell and T.J. Duckett.
Offensive lineman Barry Stokes told Jones about his agent, Dr. D.S. Ping, who studied martial arts in Japan and had been helping NFL players overcome injuries for years. Ping helped Stokes with a hernia and a herniated disk in his back. Stokes credits Ping for keeping him in the league.
"He's a grand master in jujitsu, and with this art, it's not just physical but it's mental, it's spiritual," Stokes said. "It's not Western philosophy. It's Eastern, transferring heat through the flesh. It's very unique exercise. ... He's got a gift of healing."
Ping called his technique "heat acupuncture" and said it was part of martial arts.
"It's great to learn to destroy a body," Ping said. "But it's more wonderful to put it back together."
Jones had used acupuncture before. He once had another Asian man stick needles into his leg to help with a quadriceps problem. He believed in this kind of thing. Still, he was unsure.
"I kept on telling him," Stokes said. "I said, 'KJ, come on, buddy. We need to get you over here.' He said, 'Well, I've seen a guy over here who does that stuff.' I said, 'You don't understand. This guy can get you right. You'll come back stronger than you were before.' "
"Barry's crazy," Jones said. "I was like, 'Yeah, OK, OK.' And then finally ... I just went to try it out."
Jones and his father, Thomas, went to Ping's house. They went to the basement. Jones' father held his hand over the hot box and had to pull it away in two seconds. He was amazed when Ping did his thing.
"Absorb the heat and project it back out," Ping said. "I have to not worry about myself but project it back into him. Any time you're talking about heat of that intensity -- pardon the expression -- it's pretty damn hot."
Ping pinpointed the heat to where it was needed.
"When you put a heat pad on, it spreads out," Ping said. "This is more concentrated into one specific area -- and I mean into a size of a pinhead. ... It would feel just like a needle and hitting one spot. Nothing else. I mean, you literally do not feel it anywhere else except that one spot."
How did it feel?
"People say your body can't transfer heat to another, but ... it hurt because it was real hot," Jones said. "It's intense."
Jones started seeing Ping regularly, not only getting the heat acupuncture but working out with him.
"He was truly surprised by the impact it had on him," Stokes said. "It really is a wow factor."
Jones is on the physically unable to perform list, and he might stay on it to start the regular season, meaning he would miss at least the first six weeks. But he hopes to come back for the regular-season opener Sept. 9 at Oakland, and he is trying other things, too. He soaks his foot in hot water and Epsom salts. He wears a compression sock to bed.
"Anything that can work to heal," Jones said. "Just dedicated to getting back and getting my foot right as fast as possible."
No weird teas, though.
"Barry gave me some tea," Jones said, laughing. "But I didn't use it yet."
August 14, 2007
BY NICHOLAS J. COTSONIKA
FREE PRESS SPORTS WRITER
In the off-season, maybe three days a week, Lions running back Kevin Jones would drive to Saline to see someone about his injured foot. He wasn't going to a high-tech treatment center; he was going to an Asian man's basement. This wasn't state-of-the-art; this was martial arts.
Jones would lie on an examining table. The man would say a prayer, then hold his hands over a little box. The box contained a flame. The man would absorb the heat in his hands, then put his hands on Jones' foot and project the heat to the injured area, laser-like. Swelling and pain would subside.
Advertisement
Heat acupuncture. Sound strange? Well, it sounded strange to Jones, too, at first. But he was injured, and he did what he had to do. And now he swears by it.
"It's not conventional or traditional," Jones said with a laugh Monday, after going through conventional and traditional rehab at Lions headquarters. "I just was willing to try kind of like anything because I was, you know, hurting. ... That's one of the reasons why my recovery is speeding up so good."
Jones was trying to score Dec. 10 at Minnesota when he planted his left foot and was stopped just short of the goal line. His foot stuck in the turf and twisted. He suffered a Lisfranc injury -- a tearing of the tissues that connect the bones in the middle of the foot.
In surgery three days later, doctors put three pins in the foot to hold together the bones so the structures around them could heal in place. No one could say for certain when he would be able to play again. He went stage-by-stage -- no weight on the foot, walking boot, regular shoe, another surgery to remove two of the pins -- while the Lions brought in running backs Tatum Bell and T.J. Duckett.
Offensive lineman Barry Stokes told Jones about his agent, Dr. D.S. Ping, who studied martial arts in Japan and had been helping NFL players overcome injuries for years. Ping helped Stokes with a hernia and a herniated disk in his back. Stokes credits Ping for keeping him in the league.
"He's a grand master in jujitsu, and with this art, it's not just physical but it's mental, it's spiritual," Stokes said. "It's not Western philosophy. It's Eastern, transferring heat through the flesh. It's very unique exercise. ... He's got a gift of healing."
Ping called his technique "heat acupuncture" and said it was part of martial arts.
"It's great to learn to destroy a body," Ping said. "But it's more wonderful to put it back together."
Jones had used acupuncture before. He once had another Asian man stick needles into his leg to help with a quadriceps problem. He believed in this kind of thing. Still, he was unsure.
"I kept on telling him," Stokes said. "I said, 'KJ, come on, buddy. We need to get you over here.' He said, 'Well, I've seen a guy over here who does that stuff.' I said, 'You don't understand. This guy can get you right. You'll come back stronger than you were before.' "
"Barry's crazy," Jones said. "I was like, 'Yeah, OK, OK.' And then finally ... I just went to try it out."
Jones and his father, Thomas, went to Ping's house. They went to the basement. Jones' father held his hand over the hot box and had to pull it away in two seconds. He was amazed when Ping did his thing.
"Absorb the heat and project it back out," Ping said. "I have to not worry about myself but project it back into him. Any time you're talking about heat of that intensity -- pardon the expression -- it's pretty damn hot."
Ping pinpointed the heat to where it was needed.
"When you put a heat pad on, it spreads out," Ping said. "This is more concentrated into one specific area -- and I mean into a size of a pinhead. ... It would feel just like a needle and hitting one spot. Nothing else. I mean, you literally do not feel it anywhere else except that one spot."
How did it feel?
"People say your body can't transfer heat to another, but ... it hurt because it was real hot," Jones said. "It's intense."
Jones started seeing Ping regularly, not only getting the heat acupuncture but working out with him.
"He was truly surprised by the impact it had on him," Stokes said. "It really is a wow factor."
Jones is on the physically unable to perform list, and he might stay on it to start the regular season, meaning he would miss at least the first six weeks. But he hopes to come back for the regular-season opener Sept. 9 at Oakland, and he is trying other things, too. He soaks his foot in hot water and Epsom salts. He wears a compression sock to bed.
"Anything that can work to heal," Jones said. "Just dedicated to getting back and getting my foot right as fast as possible."
No weird teas, though.
"Barry gave me some tea," Jones said, laughing. "But I didn't use it yet."
I think you are looking at the issue a little differently. Phurfur is probably approaching the question in pure fantasy terms. In pure fantasy terms, there is a core group of fantasy-worthy RBs that seem to stay generally injury-free. In general NFL terms, most RBs get hurt, and most RBs have short careers. Also, phurfur's definition of "injury risk' would be the type of guy that misses lots of games and has an assortment of injuries, and it doesn't really make sense to include LT getting nicked up once in his career where he doesn't miss any time. In short, you probably need to clarify some definitions first. You seem to be jumping to conclusions.
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