Bibleguys - My Journey These Past Couple of Years (1 Viewer)

[Charlie Steiner]

Just wanted to add, regardless of whether or not we ultimately see eye-to-eye on this stuff, thanks for making this thread and sharing your thoughts.

 

[shadrap]

Yeah,  you're not going to get more meaningful discussion of God's Word or church problems on here than you do at church.  

I think you've lost touch.  You never have to leave corporate worship or fellowship with Christians to find the truth.  Love others.  They're right in front of.  Your fellow brothers in Christ need it as much as anyone and it sounds like you've alienated yourself from them because they're "doing it wrong"  and you found out "the truth."  Don't miss the whole point of it all while trying to understand the Bible further.  In the last days,  the Church will need to come together for the battle that will ensue,  not spread apart and figure out things on their own. 

cool.

 

[cstu]

You misread what I wrote...or read into it. 

I said it was a topic of study. I rejected the pre-trib rapture clear back when I was still pastoring. The rapture is simply the event when Jesus returns and transports the few remaining believers from where they are to Jerusalem for the millennial kingdom. But the vast majority of Christians will have already been killed. 

As for the dietary laws, it's quite simple. The passages that A Christians point to for their dismissal aren't about the dietary laws. Read in context that becomes quite evident. Over and over throughout Scripture we are told that God's law is a blessings and are eternal. So why would they ever change? The dietary laws were given for our benefit, just like every other law (better translated "instructions" actually). Pork, shellfish, etc. are actually incredibly unhealthy to consume. That's why Yahweh told His people that they aren't for food.  

All of the things listed in the Bible are far more healthy than the processed garbage that most people eat today (and God has sent no message about). 

 

[matuski]

I don't thinks this is where this is going.

Not any time soon.  But he broke free of what some people were telling him to believe.  Eventually I would think he approaches this last group of people telling him what to believe (the book's authors) in the same manner.

Maybe not..

 

[cheese]

Didn't mean to overstate it, but when I talk about where the Church is now, I'm generally speaking about non-denominational churches, as I think at least in the U.S., when seen as a bloc, I think the majority of church-goers claim 'non-denominational' as their home, so I'll concede that I could be out of step with the majority of believers and the churches they go to, but I will stand by my thought that at least in this aspect--non-denominational churches--I see them moving in similar circles as each other and even starting to coalesce into a new denomination in everything but title alone.  And I think you're right about the difference between searching for truth and just focusing on the 'do unto others' aspect, so I agree that Cross is on the right track as well, and possibly on the leading edge of yet another shift in the collective consciousness of the Church in general.  

As a mega-church goer, I'd suggest it's more like "saved by grace" and a relationship with Jesus is the focus and the rest is barely brought up. Personally, I prefer the focus on the main thing and big picture, but I can see why others might care more about all the specifics.  

 

[cstu]

As for how we worship Yahweh, I think it absolutely matters to Him.

Not enough to show himself to people though.

 

[cstu]

It's not about how nice you treat those around you,  it's about how you are actively helping out others less fortunate than you.

Your true character is exposed by how you treat people when there's no supernatural being promising eternity in paradise.

 

[cstu]

You can reject dispensationalism without embracing the entirety of the old covenant law. In fact it's kind of important if you believe that Christ's sacrifice is the ultimate atonement, to see the New Covenant as replacing the Old. 

The law is/was a blessing, insofar as it bound a people to their God and showed us just how perfect one needed to be to remain clean/blameless in relationship with perfect holiness. Not that it's still binding on the church today. 

What sacrifice exactly?

 

[Zegras11]

Your true character is exposed by how you treat people when there's no supernatural being promising eternity in paradise.

And that's what God wants for us. For us to choose that life.

 

[culdeus]

The dietary laws were given for our benefit, just like every other law (better translated "instructions" actually). Pork, shellfish, etc. are actually incredibly unhealthy to consume. 

No, not really.  It's just at the time of writing pork and shellfish were kept and/or harvested in extremely unsanitary conditions leading to widespread parasitic contamination.  These parasites could lead to infection and death.  

There hasn't been a case of a parasite causing even as much as a stomach bug from pork since the 1930s.  You can still get sick from oysters, but farmed oysters are in general much younger when they are harvested compared to the 20-30 year old oysters they were eating then and parasites were able to glom onto them much easier and the way that oysters bred and lived made them a breeding ground for all sorts of bad stuff.

The push away from lard and into hydrogenated vegetable oil is probably one of the top 5 reasons for the decline of the US lifespan.  It had nothing to do with religion, it's just people have always been a little creeped out by pigs over time.

 

[mr roboto]

Rome and atheism being posited as the logical endpoints confuses me. I would have said Judiasm or Orthodoxy.

Yep. 

 

[mr roboto]

What sacrifice exactly?

I feel like you know the answer. 

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I have come to believe that the Roman church was/is truly evil...

Wow, nice. This seems inherently bigoted, yes?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

It's pretty much a fact that the vast majority of Christians don't know the bible.

This is kind of an old canard, isn't it? Isn't the same thing said about muslims?

People have been reading the Books and fighting over interpretation since before they were books. Actually that's probably how they became books.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

There are also some books that I think are more authoritative than the church would have you believe. Specifically, ...Jubilees. 

The Book of Jubilees narrates the genesis of angels on the first day of Creation and the story of how a group of fallen angels mated with mortal females, giving rise to a race of giants known as the Nephilim, and then to their descendants, the Elioud. The Ethiopian version states that the "angels" were in fact the disobedient offspring of Seth (Deqiqa Set), while the "mortal females" were daughters of Cain.[18] This is also the view held by Simeon bar Yochai, Clementine literature, Sextus Julius Africanus, Ephrem the Syrian, Augustine of Hippo, and John Chrysostom among many other early authorities. Their hybrid children, the Nephilim in existence during the time of Noah, were wiped out by the great flood. However, Jubilees also states that God granted ten percent of the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim to try to lead mankind astray after the flood.

I mean, you can see how this might not be received well by a judaic community trying to create a single rational cannon, right?

 

[cstu]

I feel like you know the answer. 

There was no 'sacrifice' involved. 

 

[shader]

Wow, nice. This seems inherently bigoted, yes?

Oh dear.  Why is it bigoted to think that a church is evil?  Especially one with a historical past like that of the Catholic Church. 

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Oh dear.  Why is it bigoted to think that a church is evil?  Especially one with a historical past like that of the Catholic Church. 

I thought about editing that post. It just sounded somewhat 'anti-papist' and then leads to Catholics = evil. Which is a thing in some far right, extremist, white supremacist circles. Reading through the thread perhaps that's not where he is going though because he's obviously talking about some originalist theory that ties Christianity to Judaism.

eta - but no the Catholic church isn't evil any more than certain muslim sects, etc. People ought to leave that language out regardless IMO, if they're speaking academically.

 

[mr roboto]

There was no 'sacrifice' involved. 

Ok?

 

[shader]

There was no 'sacrifice' involved. 

Because...you say so?

Edit:. Not sure where you are going with this.  Explain?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Just wanted to add, regardless of whether or not we ultimately see eye-to-eye on this stuff, thanks for making this thread and sharing your thoughts.

Agreed.

 

[shader]

I thought about editing that post. It just sounded somewhat 'anti-papist' and then leads to Catholics = evil. Which is a thing in some far right, extremist, white supremacist circles. Reading through the thread perhaps that's not where he is going though because he's obviously talking about some originalist theory that ties Christianity to Judaism.

eta - but no the Catholic church isn't evil any more than certain muslim sects, etc. People ought to leave that language out regardless IMO, if they're speaking academically.

I suppose it depends on what you call evil. 

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I suppose it depends on what you call evil. 

I think it's best not to call whole religious groups evil at all. Drop in on the Trump thread and everyone that islam is evil, see how that goes.

 

[CrossEyed2]

I mean, you can see how this might not be received well by a judaic community trying to create a single rational cannon, right?

Sorry, but the Seth/Cain theory makes no sense in the context of the passages. It's simply a way to explain away what some are uncomfortable dealing with. 

But it's much easier to push this theory when you hide books like Enoch, Jasher and Jubilees. 

 

[shader]

I think it's best not to call whole religious groups evil at all. Drop in on the Trump thread and everyone that islam is evil, see how that goes.

Again, I don't think anyone is saying that all people of a certain religious group are evil.  But that doesn't necessarily mean the group itself or those running it aren't.  Tho that would depend on your definition of evil I imagine?

 

[CrossEyed2]

I think it's best not to call whole religious groups evil at all. Drop in on the Trump thread and everyone that islam is evil, see how that goes.

The leaders were/are evil. The folks in the pew are mostly just misled. 

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I was a pastor for 8 years, and served in ministry full-time for another three years. 

There are also some books that I think are more authoritative than the church would have you believe. Specifically, Enoch, Jasher, and Jubilees. 

I think you are what could be called an 'expert' or professional and the rest of us (all of us?) are really amateurs, so I have to defer on almost any opinion you give on this stuff, so I recognize that.

However just IMO I always thought the Book of Sirach was always a big in the middle of the OT. Here's a teacher/rabbi named Joshua - called Jesus - who has teachings which are here and there pointed to in the NT. he created a whole school just 150-200 years before Jesus.  And it's canon in Christianity but not in Judaism (IIRC). It's those ghosts in the machine which fascinate me.

 

[shader]

People like simple explanations to issues that are anything but. They also overestimate their ability to understand said complex issues, so you get statements like that. 

Also, no one called an entire group evil.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

The leaders were/are evil. The folks in the pew are mostly just misled. 

Which leaders? All the Popes from Linus to Francis? The archbishop in your district too? The priest in your parish? Just Constantine? Just the members of the Council of Nicea?

 

[Megaton]

Because...you say so?

Edit:. Not sure where you are going with this.  Explain?

He appears to be trying to derail the discussion.  

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Again, I don't think anyone is saying that all people of a certain religious group are evil.  But that doesn't necessarily mean the group itself or those running it aren't.  Tho that would depend on your definition of evil I imagine?

I realized I created a hot button, I'll drop it. I'd like to hear a little more from CE2 who the evil leaders are/were specifically though. I can reach the point where Constantine comes in and inculcates imperial politics into the church, but I still don't think that was evil or even the Crusades. CE2 seems to think it relevant though so I'd just like to unpack that a little.

- eta - btw this does not necessarily get limited to Catholics, if Protestant Christian leaders are hiding or distorting the Word then it would seem to me they would be 'evil' too.

 

[shader]

Which leaders? All the Popes from Linus to Francis? The archbishop in your district too? The priest in your parish? Just Constantine? Just the members of the Council of Nicea?

I make it a point never to call any one person evil.  But as a whole over a long period of time, the church basically became embroiled in politics, killed people left and right, took up teachings I personally find evil (hellfire for one), burned people alive who tried to own or translate bibles, and got involved with countless wars that caused a ton of death and destruction.

So overall, yeah an evil organization historically, but as to which parts, I'm glad I don't have to be the judge of that, and certainly I think the modern Catholic Church realizes and has apologized for many of the atrocities, whether that means anything to anyone or not, who knows.

Back to the original point though, many of the teachings and beliefs that continue today were inserted during those time periods where everyone can admit the Catholic church had major, major problems.  

 

[cstu]

Because...you say so?

Edit:. Not sure where you are going with this.  Explain?

An all-powerful being cannot make an earthly sacrifice.  Seems self-evident to me.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Back to the original point though, many of the teachings and beliefs that continue today were inserted during those time periods where everyone can admit the Catholic church had major, major problems.  

Is this not true of protestantism as well? In the context of what CE2 is saying they are evil for hiding/distorting the true Word.

 

[shader]

An all-powerful being cannot make an earthly sacrifice.  Seems self-evident to me.

Why?  He can't have feelings?

 

[shader]

Is this not true of protestantism as well? In the context of what CE2 is saying they are evil for hiding/distorting the true Word.

Of course

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

the church basically became embroiled in politics, killed people left and right, took up teachings I personally find evil (hellfire for one), burned people alive who tried to own or translate bibles, and got involved with countless wars that caused a ton of death and destruction.

Again, plenty of this in the protestant sects. They did all this as well.

I don't mean to derail but getting back to the OP CE2 is obviously saying the evil is in the distortion of the real message and it seems to me that would apply to all of Christianity based on what he is saying.

 

[Megaton]

Should be careful when you label things as evil.  Even if they are wrong or misguided about certain things, that does not make them evil.  Nobody has all the answers. 

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Most Christians can't really understand the New Testament properly because they are so uninformed about the Old Testament. 

The biggest problem, in my opinion? Dispensationalism.  Not understanding that there is no distinction between Israel (the people, not the current nation) and the church has led to a myriad of unbiblical teachings. The church didn't start at Pentecost in the first century, the church started at Sinai when Yahweh gave Moses the commandments.

He's not just talking about Catholics here. If the "Church" was responsible and evil for creating this heresy then all the protestant Christian sects which followed that still are also evil in the same way. The Church hasn't been stopping them for understanding this Truth for some 500 years now.

 

[CrossEyed2]

I make it a point never to call any one person evil.  But as a whole over a long period of time, the church basically became embroiled in politics, killed people left and right, took up teachings I personally find evil (hellfire for one), burned people alive who tried to own or translate bibles, and got involved with countless wars that caused a ton of death and destruction.

So overall, yeah an evil organization historically, but as to which parts, I'm glad I don't have to be the judge of that, and certainly I think the modern Catholic Church realizes and has apologized for many of the atrocities, whether that means anything to anyone or not, who knows.

Back to the original point though, many of the teachings and beliefs that continue today were inserted during those time periods where everyone can admit the Catholic church had major, major problems.  

Yeah, I would agree with this. 

And I'll add that I think a person can be "unintentionally evil". Some people are used by Satan for his purposes and don't even realize what they are doing.

As for the current church, we all still have the ability to read Scripture and make changes, based on what we read. So by perpetuating the evil pagan practices that have become associated with the church's holidays (which Yahwheh never said to celebrate, by the way), I think it's valid to call it out as evil. 

I realize that not everyone will agree with that, and that's ok. 

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Yeah, I would agree with this. 

And I'll add that I think a person can be "unintentionally evil". Some people are used by Satan for his purposes and don't even realize what they are doing.

As for the current church, we all still have the ability to read Scripture and make changes, based on what we read. So by perpetuating the evil pagan practices that have become associated with the church's holidays (which Yahwheh never said to celebrate, by the way), I think it's valid to call it out as evil. 

I realize that not everyone will agree with that, and that's ok. 

Protestants put up Christmas trees and tell their children about the Easter bunny too, right?

 

[CrossEyed2]

I really appreciate your ability to reconsider things that you considered primary. The CE I knew would never have challenged the canon. Most people aren't willing to look at things that fundamental to their belief, and for that I give you kudos.  

My eyes have been opened to so many of the lies around us. Lies in government, lies in science (which is primarily controlled by government) and lies in the church. I would say that I've discovered that most of what I used to believe as true, simply isn't. 

 

[bueno]

Thanks. I've been reading anything and everything. Mostly Scripture, and mostly the prophets. The church doesn't understand what Paul wrote because they don't understand what Paul read.

I think what first turned the light on for me was an article that was in the appendix of a prophecy book I was reading. It was about the two houses (Israel and Judah) and just made so much sense. And it started making other things make more sense. And once that snowball started rolling downhill, it just kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger. Since then I've branched out into all kinds of topics, like the rapture timing, who/what the beasts of Revelation actually will be, the watchers and the nephilim, the literal understanding of the creation account, the pagan origins of the vast majority of our holiday traditions, God's feast days and why the church should be observing them (along with the dietary laws), and on and on and on. It just seemed like every topic led to two or three others.

When you are ready, research Ugarit the El.[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]

 

[cstu]

Why?  He can't have feelings?

"Ouch, that hurt.  Wait, never mind, I turned off my pain receptors."

 

[bueno]

Im with you on the Roman Church.  The trinity is tough for most people, because that is one belief that carried on into Protestant Churches, and is quite deeply ingrained into people's minds.  But there were spurious verses added, and also translation decisions made, due to that belief.  

I can't agree on the bible, although it's possible that some of those books have historical value. 

But if the bible is more than just books written by men (i.e. If it was inspired), then the same God who has allowed for it to become the most widely translated and published book, and sent to the far-flung corners of the earth, would also protect it from the reaches of the Catholic Church.  So personally, I don't spend too much time investigating the actual composition of the bible. 

Glad to see your journey keep up the search.

How is the Trinity any different from a Pagan Triple Goddess?

 

[CrossEyed2]

Protestants put up Christmas trees and tell their children about the Easter bunny too, right?

Yes, they do. And by bringing those practices with them, we were perpetrators of the same evil. I've done it too. But no longer, now that I understand their roots and that worshiping God in that way is not pleasing to Him.

Just to clarify, I'm pointing to the Roman church as the source of these problems, but the Protestants have been willing participants as well. 

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

When you are ready, research Ugarit the El.[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]

Or Al-Lat (or Al-Lat, Al Uzzah & Manat)  for that matter.

 

[shader]

"Ouch, that hurt.  Wait, never mind, I turned off my pain receptors."

Jesus felt the pain and it was true, physical pain and then true physical death.

God felt the pain of watching his beloved son die an excruciating death.  Any parent should be able to see how that was a sacrifice.  

 

[shader]

How is the Trinity any different from a Pagan Triple Goddess?

Well it's really not any different.

 

[jhib]

Yeah, I would agree with this. 

And I'll add that I think a person can be "unintentionally evil". Some people are used by Satan for his purposes and don't even realize what they are doing.

As for the current church, we all still have the ability to read Scripture and make changes, based on what we read. So by perpetuating the evil pagan practices that have become associated with the church's holidays (which Yahwheh never said to celebrate, by the way), I think it's valid to call it out as evil. 

I realize that not everyone will agree with that, and that's ok. 

What Christian denomination  was the church in which you were a pastor for 8 years? 

Do you feel that you were unintentionally evil during that time? 

Eta: I see you answered that second question already.