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Bibleguys - My Journey These Past Couple of Years (2 Viewers)

I was in this position as well for a year or two. 
Dan Brown would love this stuff :)

Seriously though, I am always interested in the history behind these theories.   There are way too many things in your post to address all at once.   I'd be interested in just one for now.

I'd be interested in knowing what evidence you have that those verses in 2 Peter were written by someone in Alexandria as that one seems to have some concrete evidence from your post.   I'm assuming you are talking about 2 Peter 3:15-16.

I have no problems with the idea that some if not all of 2 Peter was likely not written by Peter and after his death.   But how do you know those sections were written by someone from Alexandria?

 
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I was in this position as well for a year or two. It was after I left seminary, where I realized seminary exists to create parrots of the faith, and not a place to think critically and question. My wife and I started looking into Torah observation, celebrating God's holidays (Jewish) and stopped celebrating pagan holidays (Christmas and Easter). The more I went in this direction, the more I questioned Paul's books. The more I questioned Paul's books, the more I saw inconsistencies between him and Jesus. The more I saw inconsistencies, the more I questioned his apostleship. The more I questioned his apostleship, the more I questioned those who selected his books as scripture. The more I questioned those who selected his books as scripture, the more I found evidence that Paul didn't even write some of the books attributed to him. The more I found evidence that Paul didn't even write some of the books attributed to him, the more I found evidence that the books attributed to Peter are forgeries. This led to learning that the gospels were likely written by followers of Paul. Out of the entire new testament, the only books that weren't written by followers of Paul were James and Revelation. And revelation even makes a case that Paul and his cohorts were false apostles. After realizing all this, reading Galatians now has an entirely different context for me. The church always taught that Paul is talking about some other group of people teaching a different gospel. But Galatians makes far more sense when the context that Peter (Cephas), John and James are teaching a different gospel than Paul. It's quite clear that Paul got his gospel from visions of Jesus after Jesus died. He even insinuates that God didn't share this gospel with the 12 apostles while he ministered to them for 3 and a half years because they were too stupid to understand it. So God waited until Jesus died so Jesus could show up to Paul in visions so Paul could share it with the world. What Paul taught was never taught by the 12 apostles. The verse in 2 Peter that supposedly validates what Paul taught was again a forgery written by a follower of Paul. It's written by someone who lived and/or was educated in Alexandria. It's very unlikely to be written by someone who lived in Judea like Peter. This knowledge led me to understanding that Paul's "gospel" is actually just a lot of pagan beliefs that had been around for centuries that he attributed to Jesus. Heaven, hell, salvation, afterlife, savior, redeemer, forgiveness of sin.... blah, blah, blah.... all of this can be found in pagan religions prior to Jesus even being born. As well as the holidays and traditions Christians follow. It's all just a bunch of pagan beliefs and traditions with Jesus as the centerpoint. So what's the truth about Jesus. I believe he existed. I believe he had a lot of people who believed he was the messiah (the next anointed king of Israel). I don't believe he had 12 apostles (that's a pagan story), but he did have a large following that included Peter, John and James (his brother). These people believed Jesus would end the gentile occupation (Rome) of their promised land. They believed he would reunite the lost tribes. They believed he would make Israel into a country the rest of the world would admire. This was a political movement. None of them believed he was a savior, who would die for our sins, who would redeem us to everlasting life. They wanted him to be the next king of Israel. And that's why he was killed. This political movement was upsetting Rome and it was upsetting the Jewish establishment. They both wanted him dead, so they worked together to do it. James then became the leader as royalty is passed to family. The movement rallied around James until around 70 AD when Jerusalem fell. Between Jesus death and 70 AD, this Jerusalem "church" (which again was a political movement within Israel) accepted gentiles. These gentiles however, in order to believe Jesus was the next king of Israel, would of course have to become Jewish. If they weren't Jewish, why would they care who the next king is? Problem is, these gentiles who were joining this political movement were upsetting other Jews in the political movement by not following Jewish law. James, finally decided following every Jewish law from the very first day of their conversion is a ridiculous expectation, given there are over 600 laws and they don't know them yet. So he said they can start by honoring a few easy ones, and they will learn to honor the rest by hearing the scriptures read in the synagogue over time. But rest assured, these gentile converts became Jewish, as this was a political movement about the new king of Israel.... which of course began to die off when Jerusalem fell. When Judea was lost a few decades later the movement of James, Peter, John, et al.... completely died off. After all, why have a political movement about a new king of a country that doesn't exist anymore. Which left followers of Paul to own the history of what happened. The truth is James, Peter, John at all, didn't know Paul was teaching a pagan version of Jesus to gentiles. They thought he was out recruiting gentiles to their political movement. When they heard about churches in Asia doing pagan things, they went there to correct it and return them to the Jewish Torah. THEY were the ones Paul was #####ing about in Galatians. They taught them a different gospel than Paul taught them, because Paul taught them the pagan religion that he fooled everyone into believing was given to him by Jesus and visions, and was kept from James, Peter and John, who actually knew Jesus while he was alive, because they were too stupid to understand the gospel. It was the churches in Asia that rejected Paul which Paul even admits (2 Timothy 1:15), the churches in Asia that Revelation was written too, and the church of Ephesus (in Asia) that is commended in Revelation 2:2 for testing and finding those claiming to be apostles false (Paul called many of his cohorts apostles too). Ephesus gave Paul a ton of crap during his missions (likely imprisoning him for quite a while as well). On Paul's last trip to Jerusalem, he couldn't even dock in Ephesus. He had to dock to the south, so that those in Ephesus who still followed him could safely meet with him. And to top it off, when Paul is in Jerusalem trying to convince James that the rumors about him teaching followers to not be Jewish are false, it was Asians that wouldn't let him get away with fooling James. At that point, Paul and the Jerusalem church parted ways. But again, because the Jerusalem church (a political movement) died off due to Jerusalem falling and Judea being lost, followers of Paul have taught Paul's pagan version of what happened unopposed. They wrote the gospels, which is just a ton of pagan beliefs tied to Jesus. They wrote forgeries such as both books of Peter. They even forged some books in Paul's name. Why they included James and Revelation in their chosen books of scripture is a mystery, but both are known to be the last chosen for acceptance and had the most opposition out of all the books that made it. So in the end, does this mean I believe the truth is we should all be Jewish? Not in the least. I believe there was a movement to make Jesus the next king of Israel, but that country died off. It's been gone for almost 2000 years. The new version of it is a joke. It was created by Zionists who are trying to make prophecy come true. Part of me wants to be bitter that I was raised on this bunk, because to be honest letting go of it literally had me going through the five stages of grief. And given my life, my family, my friends, et al, was a world established in, on and around Christianity, it's safe to say my world is much different now. So it would be easy to be bitter, but honestly it's quite fascinating knowing that billions of people throughout history have lived entire lives based on the teachings of Paul, who was clearly a male chauvinist bigot who condoned slavery. I'll give him a pass given those were cultural norms at the time. But humankind has had a serious delay in development due to so many people believing his writings to be the word of god.  
well that's just like...your opinion, man.

 
Too many to count, and all of them I value as part of an amazing journey of God working in me to bring him closer to understanding Him and His Word. 

My journey of faith includes 6 different churches where myself or my parents have served in leadership, across 3 different denominations and 3 different countries.   We frequently had to relocate but I hope we left healthy thriving gospel oriented communities in all cases.

I can or have in the past identified with the following labels: baptist, anglican, non-denominational, fundamentalist, conservative, evangelical, protestant, liberal, emerging, modernist, postmodern, creationist, theistic evolutionist, anti-Catholic, Catholic sympathizing.  Labels can never fully capture what I or anyone else believes at any one time and definitely not through their entire life. 

Many of my positions are in disagreement with my pastors, church, parents, wife, and past versions of myself.  I try to engage all disagreement in a gracious way for both of us to look more carefully into what the bible is actually saying.   I do this not because they need to agree with me, but because I want us to always seek the truth, even if the truth is uncomfortable and disagrees with our understanding of the scriptures, God and the world.   If someone is willing to investigate more deeply what scripture actually says and what God wants in their life, even if they don't agree with me eventually, I am more than satisfied.
So im assuming that all of these changes were made thoughtfully and prayerfully?

 
This is a great post. Wish it had some paragraph breaks but it's a great post.
I'm not quite ready to toss out all of Paul. I think Paul's letters are interpreted incorrectly for a number of reasons. Primary among them is that most people don't understand the concept of the two houses of Judah and Israel, and how they tie in to the entire message of the Bible, both OT and NT. 

I do agree with PS regarding Zionism. But if I wrote down everything I believe, I'd be accused of being antisemitic, so I'll keep those thoughts to myself. 

 
The truth is James, Peter, John at all, didn't know Paul was teaching a pagan version of Jesus to gentiles. They thought he was out recruiting gentiles to their political movement. When they heard about churches in Asia doing pagan things, they went there to correct it and return them to the Jewish Torah. THEY were the ones Paul was #####ing about in Galatians. They taught them a different gospel than Paul taught them, because Paul taught them the pagan religion that he fooled everyone into believing was given to him by Jesus and visions, and was kept from James, Peter and John, who actually knew Jesus while he was alive, because they were too stupid to understand the gospel. It was the churches in Asia that rejected Paul which Paul even admits (2 Timothy 1:15), the churches in Asia that Revelation was written too, and the church of Ephesus (in Asia) that is commended in Revelation 2:2 for testing and finding those claiming to be apostles false (Paul called many of his cohorts apostles too). Ephesus gave Paul a ton of crap during his missions (likely imprisoning him for quite a while as well). On Paul's last trip to Jerusalem, he couldn't even dock in Ephesus. He had to dock to the south, so that those in Ephesus who still followed him could safely meet with him. And to top it off, when Paul is in Jerusalem trying to convince James that the rumors about him teaching followers to not be Jewish are false, it was Asians that wouldn't let him get away with fooling James.
 - I think you lose me here.

- When you say 'Asia' do you mean the Roman empire along what we now would call the Lebanese, Syrian, Turkish and Greek coast and isles? That I could see. Paul/Saul was a Romanized/hellenized Jew. He himself was from Tarsus. He may have been known to Josephus and he may have been close or near the Roman imperial family and clique. IMO there are two ways to look at this. One is that Paul himself felt personally involved. What happened in Jerusalem reflected on all Roman Jews. For him sort of merging the Christian epic into the Roman worldview was both necessary and also the way he understood it. The second POV is that that it was almost done as a sort of propaganda for the Empire to transform the Judaic movement into something pacified and itself pacific. I think regardless it's clear there is some inculcation of Roman ideas, for instance about mystic religion, into the Pauline texts. However I also think regardless you have to admit that if Paul and his branch of the community thought that Jesus' message was universal that it had to be infused with some ideas which would be acceptable to the greater audience.I think nearly all great religions, philosophies and ideologies go through this. Keep the message pure or ameliorate it to reach an expanded audience. I allude to this with CE about Constantine: sure Constantine is a terrible person who corrupted doctrine etc., but reality is IMO that if he did not adopt Christianity then we probably aren't having the conversation today since its reach would have historically been far, far more limited.

One thing I distinctly don't like about this version of the Bible is how it essentially whitewashes a lot of what the Romans were doing. It's bizarre to me that this is a telling of a political execution. Jesus is executed for free speech. He is tortured and publicly humiliated as an enemy of the state. The Jews are made to look 'bad', essentially at fault, while the Romans have this sort of ' :shrug: ' helplessness as they are almost dragged or forced into executing Jesus. That whole aspect bothers me and I really can't get around it. I don't even want to.

 
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People who practice Christianity, in your opinion or belief, when was the NEW Testament written and who do you believe wrote the passages in the NT? I will accept the simple answer of Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John but then I'm going to ask some follow up questions...

So who do you believe wrote the New Testament?

Jayrok?
I believe that some of the NT epistles were written before the gospels, some after (in the second century).  I think it is somewhat common knowledge that the gospels were written anonymously.  The names were associated later with each.  And they weren't written by eyewitnesses.  And I don't believe they were meant to be biographies of Jesus.  Matt and Luke used Mark but didn't necessarily know of each other.  I believe there was a Q source as well.  I believe Mark was written first and was the author's attempt at bringing to life the Jesus of Paul's letters.  This Jesus arose from the Hebrew scriptures, not some carpenter's son from Galilee.  The gospel of Mark is a story of Jesus told through midrash using source stories from the old testament.  The gospels that followed built upon Mark.  By the time it got to John's gospel, more Hellenistic philosophy entered the fray (e.g. the Logos of God... Jesus is God incarnate, etc.).  

The gospels were written at or near the end of the first century.  As for the epistles, I think Paul is the most misunderstood man in the NT.  He is the key to the entire NT, imo.  I think much of the Pauline letters are the result of many decades of warring factions looking to overcome each other through holy scripture.  The Catholic church vs the Gnostics, through forgery, redaction and interpolation of existing texts.  A common saying, which has actually been posted earlier in this thread, rings true:  History is written by the victors. 

There are scholars (Herman Detering and Robert M. Price for example) who proposed a radical view that the epistles were reworked by later scribes to tone down or remove Gnostic concepts, which made it more acceptable to the developing Roman church.  They've published books on that subject.  Price goes line by line with commentary in his book.  It is proposed that Marcion (the heretic) actually may have written some of them, such as Galatians, that were later interpolated to make them more orthodox.  The Gnostics had more influence in the early centuries than anyone today may realize.  I think it is a fair for some to say that Paul was Gnostic.  With all the patchwork and forgeries in the name of Paul (like the pastorals: 1&2 Timothy and Titus), we'll never truly know.  

I think Acts was written to smooth over the perceived relationship between Paul and Peter.  Paul is much different in Acts than he is in his letters, but I don't think Acts is a historical biography either.  It was written to harmonize Paul with the Jerusalem apostles (the infamous "super apostles" of Paul's letters), and to fulfill a prophecy the author attributes to Jesus.

I think most of the NT was written in the second century, with some exceptions.  Written and interpolated by a whole bunch of people fighting for authority of scripture.  Again, history is recorded by the victors.  Heretic beliefs were stamped out.  It is fortunate that a lot of the Gnostic writings were hidden away to be discovered later.  Otherwise, we would only know of them through the writings of church leaders arguing against them.  Somewhat an ironic twist.  

 
proninja said:
CE, at the very least you have saved us from a religion thread started by Paddington. For that I thank you. 

Also it's nice to have you back. These discussions are fun to read. 
Does anyone know who Paddington is, alias-wise?  His whole post-n-dash bit got tired so no one took the time to engage with him.  I like these discussions more as well.  I had some of the same experiences that CE and PS have mentioned here.  I went from trying to be a more liberal Christian (from fundy) to eventually a bizarre state of agnosticism.  The Jews!  I set out to better understand why they rejected Christ.  It's an interesting Journey.  

 
proninja said:
The funny thing is that "Jayrok" is probably as likely a name as "Matthew" or "Mark" in terms of NT authorship. 
I think it lost out somewhere in the 3rd century when Revelation was attributed, falsely, to John.  "Jayrok from Patmos" didn't have the same ring to it.  

 
Dan Brown would love this stuff :)

Seriously though, I am always interested in the history behind these theories.   There are way too many things in your post to address all at once.   I'd be interested in just one for now.

I'd be interested in knowing what evidence you have that those verses in 2 Peter were written by someone in Alexandria as that one seems to have some concrete evidence from your post.   I'm assuming you are talking about 2 Peter 3:15-16.

I have no problems with the idea that some if not all of 2 Peter was likely not written by Peter and after his death.   But how do you know those sections were written by someone from Alexandria?
I believe it was somewhere in the books I read by Bart Ehrman where I got a lot of info on this, but there is a section of a wikipedia article that discusses it at a very high level. 

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Petrine_epistles

Some scholars believe the author was not Peter, but an unknown author writing after Peter's death. Estimates for the date of composition range from 60 to 112 AD. Most critical scholars are skeptical that the apostle Simon Peter, the fisherman on the Sea of Galilee, actually wrote the epistle, because of the urbane cultured style of the Greek and the lack of any personal detail suggesting contact with the historical Jesus of Nazareth. The letter contains about thirty-five references to the Hebrew Bible, all of which, however, come from the Septuagint translation, an unlikely source for historical Peter the apostle, but appropriate for a Hellenized audience; thus the use of the Septuagint helps define the audience. The Septuagint was a Greek translation that had been created at Alexandria for the use of those Jews who could not easily read the Hebrew and Aramaic of the Tanakh, and for proselytes. A historical Jew in Galilee would not have heard Scripture in this form, it is argued.

I recall there being more evidence that the author would have been from Alexandria beyond the fact that that's where the Septuagint was written, such as references in the writtings that a person educated in Alexandria would be very familiar with, but those in Judea would have not used. Even if the author wasn't from Alexandria, the author being from Judea is very, very unlikely. 

 
 - I think you lose me here.

- When you say 'Asia' do you mean the Roman empire along what we now would call the Lebanese, Syrian, Turkish and Greek coast and isles? That I could see. Paul/Saul was a Romanized/hellenized Jew. He may have been known to Josephus and he may have been close or near the Roman imperial family and clique. IMO there are two ways to look at this. One is that Paul himself felt personally involved. What happened in Jerusalem reflected on all Roman Jews. For him sort of merging the Christian epic into the Roman worldview was both necessary and also the way he understood it. The second POV is that that it was almost done as a sort of propaganda for the Empire to transform the Judaic movement into something pacified and itself pacific. I think regardless it's clear there is some inculcation of Roman ideas, for instance about mystic religion, into the Pauline texts. However I also think regardless you have to admit that if Paul and his branch of the community thought that Jesus' message was universal that it had to be infused with some ideas which would be acceptable to the greater audience.

One thing I distinctly don't like about this version of the Bible is how it essentially whitewashes a lot of what the Romans were doing. It's bizarre to me that this is a telling of a political execution. Jesus is executed for free speech. He is tortured and publicly humiliated as an enemy of the state. The Jews are made to look 'bad', essentially at fault, while the Romans have this sort of ' :shrug: ' helplessness as they are almost dragged or forced into executing Jesus. That whole aspect bothers me and I really can't get around it. I don't even want to.
Yes, "Asia" in Paul's times was referring to exactly what you said. Here is a map that shows it: http://www.bible-history.com/maps/maps/map_new_testament_asia_cities.html

I really don't get into Paul's motivations. If I had to have an opinion on why he did what he did, I'd say he really believed what he wrote (note: he didn't write every letter attributed to him). I think he really thought he saw visions of Jesus. That said, I think he was nuts to some degree, kind of like a Steve Jobs of his day. Very influential, and strongly opinionated, and a guy who wouldn't put up with those not 110% committed to the task at hand. Again, this is a weak position I have on who he was, but it's the best I can offer.

What is clear is that paganism was a big part of Roman and Greek cultures at the time. We know this as fact from all the buildings, statues and artifacts that still even exist today. We also know Judaism was not liked very much. It was conditions ripe for such an influential person such as Paul to create a religion full of paganism surrounded by a key figure from Judaism that the Jews rejected. It was like being able to have their cake and eat it too. Practice all the beliefs and traditions they like, while pointing at the Jews saying "you dummies". Again, I don't think this was a conspiracy by Paul, He really believed it, and felt he was chosen by god to be the vehicle of this "mystery" that again, those dumb disciples of Jesus just didn't understand. But once people began to believe in Paul, it took a life of it's own. It's not like this happened overnight either. The process of Paul beginning this and it become the religion of Rome took longer than the entire history of The United States of America to date. It took a lot of time, and a lot of things altered and changed during those centuries.

I don't think we can even know exactly what Paul wrote and was saying at the time. It's been so altered and interpolated over centuries that it's impossible to say for sure what Paul exactly was saying, what he believed, who he even was, or what his relationship with James, John and Peter really was. So I'm not saying I know what happened. I'm saying the christian church (or churches) very very likely have it wrong. In fact, there are so many inconsistencies and issues with christian doctrine that they can't possibly be true. It's also why there are so many different christian doctrines. Christians can see the issues with other christian doctrines, but they refuse to admit their own is flawed as well. Yet, they all willingly establish themselves on the version of history created by the victors of what happened before the NT was written, while it was being written, and after it was altered and interpolated. It's basically a "let's start with the assumption that the NT is absolutely correct". The flaws all then tumble down from that point and never work themselves out to an undeniable truth. That's because the basis is not true. The Bible is flawed.  

 
There are scholars (Herman Detering and Robert M. Price for example) who proposed a radical view that the epistles were reworked by later scribes to tone down or remove Gnostic concepts, which made it more acceptable to the developing Roman church.  They've published books on that subject.  Price goes line by line with commentary in his book.  It is proposed that Marcion (the heretic) actually may have written some of them, such as Galatians, that were later interpolated to make them more orthodox.  The Gnostics had more influence in the early centuries than anyone today may realize.  I think it is a fair for some to say that Paul was Gnostic.  With all the patchwork and forgeries in the name of Paul (like the pastorals: 1&2 Timothy and Titus), we'll never truly know.  
The etymology of the word "gnostic" or "gnosticism" is an interesting study in this regard. Eventually the word came to describe a set of beliefs radically different than orthodox christian beliefs. But at a high level gnostic or gnosticism is about knowing something that is a key to everlasting life. When the word (or words) isn't used to refer to a specific set of non-orthodox beliefs it's easy to see that the orthodox belief is itself a form of gnosticism or gnostic. Knowing Jesus died for your sins is the key to everlasting life. Knowing he was god. Knowing he always existed... etc, etc.... orthodox christianity is just as gnostic as the beliefs that the orthodox church deemed as heretical and labeled "gnostic". That being said, I think it can be very confusing to suggest to people that Christianity is a gnostic religion as most people today just assume words mean in the past what they mean today. Perhaps a better wy to put it is Christians believe their secret knowledge to salvation is correct but heretical secret knowledge to salvation is not correct. Do you know the correct secret? Well, do you? Do you know the correct knowledge (gnosis)?

 
Same here.  I know several people who've had crisis of faith in seminary.  Our pastor is celebrating his 26th year at our church (which is remarkable in this day and time), and he told me how his beliefs have changed over the years.  The church is considered southern baptist but there are some topics that he won't preach on.  I've had discussions in his office from time to time and he once told me that he's afraid he'd be run off if he told the congregation he didn't believe in hell...at least a fiery literal hell.  Far from a fundy, he is open to any type of discussion.  

IIRC, our friend, Politician Spock, also attended seminary where he started having some issues.  I imagine he will find this thread soon and we'll hear from him.  
Yep. Spent some time reading the entire thread and found this post..

I was 42 years old when I decided to go to seminary. I went because after nearly three decades of being a christian, the more I studied the bible, the more questions I had and the less believable it was becoming. I didn't want to leave the faith. I wanted it to be true. My life depended on it. So I was hoping seminary would restore my faith.

It didn't. In fact, it drove me away from the faith even further. It's not a place to think critically and question things like college was for me. After a while it was clear grades were dependent on parroting what they wanted to hear. If I recall, I had a 3.8 GPA or somewhere around there when I left. So I could parrot with the best of them. But I wasn't there to get a degree that would get me a job like most of my classmates were. I was there to think critically about it all, and that wasn't welcome in any circles. I learned so much more after leaving and spent 99% less. 

 
I, for one, thank you for going to seminary and posting what you learned from it here since you've explained a lot of things they I felt were wrong but never really knew why.  Really think you have a unique perspective and should write a book.

 
I was in this position as well for a year or two. It was after I left seminary, where I realized seminary exists to create parrots of the faith, and not a place to think critically and question. My wife and I started looking into Torah observation, celebrating God's holidays (Jewish) and stopped celebrating pagan holidays (Christmas and Easter). The more I went in this direction, the more I questioned Paul's books. The more I questioned Paul's books, the more I saw inconsistencies between him and Jesus. The more I saw inconsistencies, the more I questioned his apostleship. The more I questioned his apostleship, the more I questioned those who selected his books as scripture. The more I questioned those who selected his books as scripture, the more I found evidence that Paul didn't even write some of the books attributed to him. The more I found evidence that Paul didn't even write some of the books attributed to him, the more I found evidence that the books attributed to Peter are forgeries. This led to learning that the gospels were likely written by followers of Paul. Out of the entire new testament, the only books that weren't written by followers of Paul were James and Revelation. And revelation even makes a case that Paul and his cohorts were false apostles. After realizing all this, reading Galatians now has an entirely different context for me. The church always taught that Paul is talking about some other group of people teaching a different gospel. But Galatians makes far more sense when the context that Peter (Cephas), John and James are teaching a different gospel than Paul. It's quite clear that Paul got his gospel from visions of Jesus after Jesus died. He even insinuates that God didn't share this gospel with the 12 apostles while he ministered to them for 3 and a half years because they were too stupid to understand it. So God waited until Jesus died so Jesus could show up to Paul in visions so Paul could share it with the world. What Paul taught was never taught by the 12 apostles. The verse in 2 Peter that supposedly validates what Paul taught was again a forgery written by a follower of Paul. It's written by someone who lived and/or was educated in Alexandria. It's very unlikely to be written by someone who lived in Judea like Peter. This knowledge led me to understanding that Paul's "gospel" is actually just a lot of pagan beliefs that had been around for centuries that he attributed to Jesus. Heaven, hell, salvation, afterlife, savior, redeemer, forgiveness of sin.... blah, blah, blah.... all of this can be found in pagan religions prior to Jesus even being born. As well as the holidays and traditions Christians follow. It's all just a bunch of pagan beliefs and traditions with Jesus as the centerpoint. So what's the truth about Jesus. I believe he existed. I believe he had a lot of people who believed he was the messiah (the next anointed king of Israel). I don't believe he had 12 apostles (that's a pagan story), but he did have a large following that included Peter, John and James (his brother). These people believed Jesus would end the gentile occupation (Rome) of their promised land. They believed he would reunite the lost tribes. They believed he would make Israel into a country the rest of the world would admire. This was a political movement. None of them believed he was a savior, who would die for our sins, who would redeem us to everlasting life. They wanted him to be the next king of Israel. And that's why he was killed. This political movement was upsetting Rome and it was upsetting the Jewish establishment. They both wanted him dead, so they worked together to do it. James then became the leader as royalty is passed to family. The movement rallied around James until around 70 AD when Jerusalem fell. Between Jesus death and 70 AD, this Jerusalem "church" (which again was a political movement within Israel) accepted gentiles. These gentiles however, in order to believe Jesus was the next king of Israel, would of course have to become Jewish. If they weren't Jewish, why would they care who the next king is? Problem is, these gentiles who were joining this political movement were upsetting other Jews in the political movement by not following Jewish law. James, finally decided following every Jewish law from the very first day of their conversion is a ridiculous expectation, given there are over 600 laws and they don't know them yet. So he said they can start by honoring a few easy ones, and they will learn to honor the rest by hearing the scriptures read in the synagogue over time. But rest assured, these gentile converts became Jewish, as this was a political movement about the new king of Israel.... which of course began to die off when Jerusalem fell. When Judea was lost a few decades later the movement of James, Peter, John, et al.... completely died off. After all, why have a political movement about a new king of a country that doesn't exist anymore. Which left followers of Paul to own the history of what happened. The truth is James, Peter, John at all, didn't know Paul was teaching a pagan version of Jesus to gentiles. They thought he was out recruiting gentiles to their political movement. When they heard about churches in Asia doing pagan things, they went there to correct it and return them to the Jewish Torah. THEY were the ones Paul was #####ing about in Galatians. They taught them a different gospel than Paul taught them, because Paul taught them the pagan religion that he fooled everyone into believing was given to him by Jesus and visions, and was kept from James, Peter and John, who actually knew Jesus while he was alive, because they were too stupid to understand the gospel. It was the churches in Asia that rejected Paul which Paul even admits (2 Timothy 1:15), the churches in Asia that Revelation was written too, and the church of Ephesus (in Asia) that is commended in Revelation 2:2 for testing and finding those claiming to be apostles false (Paul called many of his cohorts apostles too). Ephesus gave Paul a ton of crap during his missions (likely imprisoning him for quite a while as well). On Paul's last trip to Jerusalem, he couldn't even dock in Ephesus. He had to dock to the south, so that those in Ephesus who still followed him could safely meet with him. And to top it off, when Paul is in Jerusalem trying to convince James that the rumors about him teaching followers to not be Jewish are false, it was Asians that wouldn't let him get away with fooling James. At that point, Paul and the Jerusalem church parted ways. But again, because the Jerusalem church (a political movement) died off due to Jerusalem falling and Judea being lost, followers of Paul have taught Paul's pagan version of what happened unopposed. They wrote the gospels, which is just a ton of pagan beliefs tied to Jesus. They wrote forgeries such as both books of Peter. They even forged some books in Paul's name. Why they included James and Revelation in their chosen books of scripture is a mystery, but both are known to be the last chosen for acceptance and had the most opposition out of all the books that made it. So in the end, does this mean I believe the truth is we should all be Jewish? Not in the least. I believe there was a movement to make Jesus the next king of Israel, but that country died off. It's been gone for almost 2000 years. The new version of it is a joke. It was created by Zionists who are trying to make prophecy come true. Part of me wants to be bitter that I was raised on this bunk, because to be honest letting go of it literally had me going through the five stages of grief. And given my life, my family, my friends, et al, was a world established in, on and around Christianity, it's safe to say my world is much different now. So it would be easy to be bitter, but honestly it's quite fascinating knowing that billions of people throughout history have lived entire lives based on the teachings of Paul, who was clearly a male chauvinist bigot who condoned slavery. I'll give him a pass given those were cultural norms at the time. But humankind has had a serious delay in development due to so many people believing his writings to be the word of god.  
Spock, check your messages. 

 
That said, I think he was nuts to some degree, kind of like a Steve Jobs of his day. Very influential, and strongly opinionated, and a guy who wouldn't put up with those not 110% committed to the task at hand. Again, this is a weak position I have on who he was, but it's the best I can offer.
I don't know if I would say nuts but definitely drove others nuts.

I always thought ths story of the stoning of St Paul was rather curious. But you can see in Acts that Paul was really upsetting people, he was splitting the community.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
I just thought I'd point out that some of the writing by Paul or attributable to him is really, really good. Part of the reason for the effect of his books is that IMO the writing is just great.
I don't disagree with this at all. He's an awesome writer. And to be honest, I want it to be true. My desire for it to be true was a major reason I believed it for so long. I believe this is true for many, if not all believers. But a desire for it to be true has absolutely zero relevance on whether or not it is true. The more I removed my desire from my study, and let the evidence speak for itself, the harder it became to believe it. But yes, it's awesome. So is JRR Tolkien's books. So are many other authors writings. Being a great author doesn't mean your are right, let alone mean you speak the word of god.

 
Politician Spock said:
it's impossible to say for sure what Paul exactly was saying, what he believed, who he even was, or what his relationship with James, John and Peter really was.


CE2, FYI I get absorbed in certain subjects and I got into this a few years ago. One of the things that interested me the most was the convergence of very similar Hebrew sounding names in the NT, especially these:

- Boanerges - or Sons of Thunder, but also Sons of Anger. These were James and John, also aka brothers of Jesus, and they were also called sons of Zebedee. This was also possibly translated through Greek as Ben Argus, essentially son of Father (i.e. Zeus, eg Argus in Greek pantheology was the son of Zeus). Zebedee is also possibly translated through Hebrew as 'gift of Yahweh (Father)'.

- Barnabas - variant on Son of the Father.

- Barsabas - also a variant on Son of the Father.

- Barabbas - also a variant on (wait for it) Son of the Father.

It's interesting to me given the roles these 5 played in the NT.


I'd love to get your take on this given your knowledge. This is obviously not something I just came up with but from stuff I have read (by serious scholars who I would not be surprised you have read or are aware of based on some of your posts...) and I would throw in names like Stephen and Andrew who seem like stand-ins based on their generic Greek names (andro or 'man', steffanos or 'crown').

Point being I think there was a lot more interaction with James and John (especially James) than the Bible shows due to overwriting. Barnabas especially was Paul's traveling partner.

And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker.
In that Acts story I just linked to I think it's really interesting that 'Barnabas' is the Jupiter and Paul is the spokesman or messenger Mercury. That's mighty high praise for a guy Barnabas who is supposed to be just a traveling companion from the community. That sounds more like James to me.

 
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I'd love to get your take on this given your knowledge. This is obviously not something I just came up with but from stuff I have read (by serious scholars who I would not be surprised you have read or are aware of based on some of your posts...) and I would throw in names like Stephen and Andrew who seem like stand-ins based on their generic Greek names (andro or 'man', staffanos or 'crown').

Point being I think there was a lot more interaction with James and John (especially James) than the Bible shows due to overwriting.
Convergence is explained by the process of book creation in ancient times. It was a painstaking task in those days. No publishers. No printing press. If you wanted a copy of a book, you either asked someone to manually pen out a copy of it, or you manually penned out a copy of it yourself. As a believer, I liked to think that the holy spirit made sure that copies never got altered. I even had pastors preach behind the pulpit that god preserved the books over the centuries so we can trust they have not been altered. The evidence clearly establishes that this is hogwash, and as new copies have been discovered over the past couple centuries, the changing of the texts is obvious. Now, the vast majority of the changes are not earth shattering. That is to say they don't alter doctrine. A few do, but that is not applicable to what you are asking. How this is applicable to convergence is the person copying the book would have no issue of changing the name of someone to the name the person asking the for the copy would be more comfortable with, or recognize easier. If if the person copying it was making it for themselves, they would use names they prefer. This was common. Again, fundamentalists believers want to deny that copiers would do this, but again, the evidence is obvious things like this occurred frequently, not just with names, but with other things too. You can pretty much assume a lot of convergence occurred on a lot of different subjects. Again, most not doctrinal changing, but some did go that far. 

 
Again, most not doctrinal changing, but some did go that far. 
I'd say that the presence of James, John and Peter running around doing important things and leading the early Church being overwritten with scattered pseudonyms as supporting role players while Paul is always Paul with a shining hagiographic light around him is fairly much doctrinal by implication.

 
I'd say that the presence of James, John and Peter running around doing important things and leading the early Church being overwritten with scattered pseudonyms as supporting role players while Paul is always Paul with a shining hagiographic light around him is fairly much doctrinal by implication.
Not sure what you mean by being overwritten. Paul was the first to start writing and he didn't start writing until decades after Christ died. At least another decade past after Paul started writing before the first gospel was penned, likely by a follower of Paul. The originals of all the NT books were likely doctrinally pagan from the start. What Paul and Paul's followers wrote was then changed over the years resulting in convergence of some ideas, but the overall pagan doctrine was already there.

 
Not sure what you mean by being overwritten. Paul was the first to start writing and he didn't start writing until decades after Christ died. At least another decade past after Paul started writing before the first gospel was penned, likely by a follower of Paul. The originals of all the NT books were likely doctrinally pagan from the start. What Paul and Paul's followers wrote was then changed over the years resulting in convergence of some ideas, but the overall pagan doctrine was already there.
I'm just talking about the names. I think several of those names are either one in the same person or 2-3 and more than likely they are some combination of James, John or Peter. I think what you had in your first response made sense to me on that basis, with various scribes filling in or picking generic names to meet the preferences of their benefactors or themselves. 

 
I'm just talking about the names. I think several of those names are either one in the same person or 2-3 and more than likely they are some combination of James, John or Peter. I think what you had in your first response made sense to me on that basis, with various scribes filling in or picking generic names to meet the preferences of their benefactors or themselves. 
Yes. If we had the originals, even then we'd have the burden of determining who the author meant by the name they used. But since all we have are copies of a copy, which is itself a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy, etc, etc... we have the burden of determining who the copier meant by the name they used, and the issue of whether or not the copier knew who the copiers before them meant, and the issue of whether the copiers before them knew who the author meant. And this is just the issue of knowing who the writing is talking about. Now consider the same issue exists when determining the point author was trying to make.  :loco:

 
Politician Spock said:
I believe it was somewhere in the books I read by Bart Ehrman where I got a lot of info on this, but there is a section of a wikipedia article that discusses it at a very high level. 

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Petrine_epistles

Some scholars believe the author was not Peter, but an unknown author writing after Peter's death. Estimates for the date of composition range from 60 to 112 AD. Most critical scholars are skeptical that the apostle Simon Peter, the fisherman on the Sea of Galilee, actually wrote the epistle, because of the urbane cultured style of the Greek and the lack of any personal detail suggesting contact with the historical Jesus of Nazareth. The letter contains about thirty-five references to the Hebrew Bible, all of which, however, come from the Septuagint translation, an unlikely source for historical Peter the apostle, but appropriate for a Hellenized audience; thus the use of the Septuagint helps define the audience. The Septuagint was a Greek translation that had been created at Alexandria for the use of those Jews who could not easily read the Hebrew and Aramaic of the Tanakh, and for proselytes. A historical Jew in Galilee would not have heard Scripture in this form, it is argued.

I recall there being more evidence that the author would have been from Alexandria beyond the fact that that's where the Septuagint was written, such as references in the writtings that a person educated in Alexandria would be very familiar with, but those in Judea would have not used. Even if the author wasn't from Alexandria, the author being from Judea is very, very unlikely. 
Sorry but I find that to be very unconvincing.   The septuagint was used by Jews in Israel during Jesus time.  Why would its use make its authorship unlikely Judean?  Maybe Ehrman has better evidence.   Would that be in his Forged book?

I already agree with your overall premise that 2 Peter is unlikely to have been written by Peter in whole or in part.   That is something significant portions of the church has agreed with for a long time as evidenced by ancient Christian writings debating its canonicity.

Lets try another one.  Explain how Galatians makes more sense if "a different gospel" was the one preached by Peter James and John.  

 
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Gold Dragon said:
Too many to count, and all of them I value as part of an amazing journey of God working in me to bring him closer to understanding Him and His Word. 

My journey of faith includes 6 different churches where myself or my parents have served in leadership, across 3 different denominations and 3 different countries.   We frequently had to relocate but I hope we left healthy thriving gospel oriented communities in all cases.

I can or have in the past identified with the following labels: baptist, anglican, non-denominational, fundamentalist, conservative, evangelical, protestant, liberal, emerging, modernist, postmodern, creationist, theistic evolutionist, anti-Catholic, Catholic sympathizing.  Labels can never fully capture what I or anyone else believes at any one time and definitely not through their entire life. 

Many of my positions are in disagreement with my pastors, church, parents, wife, and past versions of myself.  I try to engage all disagreement in a gracious way for both of us to look more carefully into what the bible is actually saying.   I do this not because they need to agree with me, but because I want us to always seek the truth, even if the truth is uncomfortable and disagrees with our understanding of the scriptures, God and the world.   If someone is willing to investigate more deeply what scripture actually says and what God wants in their life, even if they don't agree with me eventually, I am more than satisfied.


CrossEyed2 said:
So im assuming that all of these changes were made thoughtfully and prayerfully?
Yes? No?

 
Lets try another one.  Explain how Galatians makes more sense if "a different gospel" was the one preached by Peter James and John.  
Read it in that context. It flows, as opposed to the orthodox view that he's jumping around talking about different parties. It's a letter about the Galatians, him and Peter/James/John. It's not a letter about the Galatians, him, Peter/James/John and another group of people. 

 
Hmmm...perhaps there's something drawning you towards these discussions. You just never know. 
Nice try Jedi-diah. If there is a ---, It can only be found in three places - the deepest recesses of my heart-brain, the interactions with my environment (oddly, you're included), and the Stars. How's that for a Trinity? Everything else is snake oil.

I reserve the right to change my mind.

 
Nice try Jedi-diah. If there is a ---, It can only be found in three places - the deepest recesses of my heart-brain, the interactions with my environment (oddly, you're included), and the Stars. How's that for a Trinity? Everything else is snake oil.

I reserve the right to change my mind.
Of course. How could I ever argue with that?

 
These threads always fall apart when people start bringing in anti-Paul nonsense, and debating bible writers.

 
Great.

So why don't you give me that same benefit of the doubt regarding my journey?
I just want to remind you of my first post in this thread to you which you liked.

https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/topic/746082-bibleguys-my-journey-these-past-couple-of-years/?do=findComment&comment=19343326

CE, I want to encourage you challenging your preconceptions about Christianity, ecclesia and the bible by digging more into the Bible.   The church has always been an institution that is resistant to questioning and critical thinking even though the scriptures themselves encourage it.

And the people of Berea were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, and they listened eagerly to Paul’s message. They searched the Scriptures day after day to see if Paul and Silas were teaching the truth.   Acts 17:11 (NLT)
And when we do so, we do it in prayerful humility of wanting to better know God and live him out so that we can be a blessing to all.
My responses to you are trying to help a brother search the scriptures to see if Two House theology is teaching you the truth.   Maybe you are not ready for that at this time but I hope you file away the passages I referenced for the day you are.

 
Read it in that context. It flows, as opposed to the orthodox view that he's jumping around talking about different parties. It's a letter about the Galatians, him and Peter/James/John. It's not a letter about the Galatians, him, Peter/James/John and another group of people. 
My hermeneutic is one what tries to read the text with as few pretexts as possible.   You must be familiar with the concept of eisegesis.    Of course it is impossible to completely remove my own preconceptions from interpretation but if you read a text with a preconceived conclusion, you are bound to find that in the text.

I'll have another read of Galatians and be open to this as a possibility.    Are there any specific portions that you consider better flowing if "another gospel" is better understood as Peter/James/John.

 
I just reread Galatians 1 and 2 and the corresponding passage about the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15.   I think it is pretty clear from Galatians that Peter initially held a more open position on gentiles, but via the influence of some other parties, had "turned to another gospel" that required Gentile Christians to follow Jewish customs, specifically circumcision.    The other parties are reported as being from James in Galatians and are unnamed in Acts.   In Acts it appears that the apostles are encouraging this "other gospel" as the men sent from Judea to Antioch appear to be following marching orders from the apostles.

For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. Galatians 2:12 (NIV)
So I guess I agree with PS that the "other gospel" is error that had crept into the gospel preached by Peter, James and John of requiring circumcision and possibly other Jewish customs of Gentiles.    Paul made a convincing argument and Peter and James saw the error of their ways and they reversed their position, at least part way in the case of James as we see in Acts.

I wouldn't say this is all that different from how I've read it before and doesn't seem all that controversial.   Acts appears to be written in a way that saves face for Peter and James making it look as if they were more neutral and saves them from the embarrassment of looking like they are reversing a wrongly held position while softening the harsh criticisms of Paul.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+1

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+15

 
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I just reread Galatians 1 and 2 and the corresponding passage about the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15.   I think it is pretty clear from Galatians that Peter initially held a more open position on gentiles, but via the influence of some other parties, had "turned to another gospel" that required Gentile Christians to follow Jewish customs, specifically circumcision.    The other parties are reported as being from James in Galatians and are unnamed in Acts.   In Acts it appears that the apostles are encouraging this "other gospel" as the men sent from Judea to Antioch appear to be following marching orders from the apostles.

So I guess I agree with PS that the "other gospel" is error that had crept into the gospel preached by Peter, James and John of requiring circumcision and possibly other Jewish customs of Gentiles.    Paul made a convincing argument and Peter and James saw the error of their ways and they reversed their position, at least part way in the case of James as we see in Acts.

I wouldn't say this is all that different from how I've read it before and doesn't seem all that controversial.   Acts appears to be written in a way that saves face for Peter and James making it look as if they were more neutral and saves them from the embarrassment of looking like they are reversing a wrongly held position while softening the harsh criticisms of Paul.
I believe those dots can safely be connected... that the unnamed people in Acts were from James and Peter's group. But they weren't sent by James and/or Peter.  Peter says as much in v24 (We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you..).  But the fact that there were such men, and Pharisees, in the Jerusalem group tells us that the Jerusalem leaders didn't have a problem with the message that was taught.  The believers in Antioch were Gentiles, though.  Thus the compromise from James in the letter to them.  

Acts definitely seems to be written in a way to soften the relationship between Paul and the Jerusalem apostles.  Heck, it softens Paul in general and makes him somewhat subordinate to those in Jerusalem.  Acts 15 says that Paul and Barnabas were appointed and sent by the church in Antioch to Jerusalem to ask James and Peter about the issue:  "Unless you are circumcised... you cannot be saved."  But in Galatians 2, Paul takes Barnabas to Jerusalem in response to a personal revelation (not sent by any church..  everything was by revelation from Jesus with Paul in his epistles).  He had no itinerary appointed to him by any of his churches.   

Paul's meeting with James and Peter in Galatians 2 ends with the two leaders agreeing that Paul should go to the Gentiles and they will stick with the circumcised.  And, interestingly, all James and Peter asked of Paul was that he should continue to remember the poor.  There is NO mention of any letter that contained an abbreviated or watered down version of the law requirements of no blood, no meat of strangled animals, etc.  

This seems significant given Paul's message in Galatians.  Galatians 2:21 -- I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"   Paul wants no part of the law, watered down or not, to be pushed upon his Gentile congregation.  There was no letter to compromise between James and Peter and his flock.  "All they asked was that we remember the poor."  His message was that if believers were still required to keep the law then Christ died for nothing.  

Was Acts 15 written in response to Galatians?  or vice-versa?  Who knows?  Acts leans Peter and gives Paul somewhat of a back seat or a seat at the end of the table where Peter and James are at the head.  It's the same with the mission to the Gentiles.  Peter seems to inaugurate Gentiles into the faith with his vision and subsequent visit to Cornelius in Acts 10/11.  But if you read Galatians 1, Paul is chosen by God, who set Paul apart at birth, to be sent to preach among the Gentiles.  And his message does not include observing the law and/or any of its requirements.  Peter and James kept the law, and even had members of the Pharisees among their flock.  

 
Could any of you scholarly lads tell me the English spelling/pronunciation for the Hebrew word(s) for the temple court marketplace where Jesus showed such anger with the dovesellers and their like? TIA -

 
Could any of you scholarly lads tell me the English spelling/pronunciation for the Hebrew word(s) for the temple court marketplace where Jesus showed such anger with the dovesellers and their like? TIA -
Are you looking for the Hebrew word for "temple"? This event was recorded in the NT, which was written in Greek, and the passage simply says He entered the temple. Just looking for clarification. Your question is a little confusing. 

 
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I have no interest in a big debate about Paul, but you cannot read all of Paul's letters and conclude that he wanted nothing to do with the law. That's some seriously selective stuff, right there. 

 
My bible has 'temple court', but it's the bazaar it had become that i'm interested. It's just such a beautiful metaphor, especially today, that i wanted to know the word translated to English. If it was greek, it would probably have been 'agora', which has its own evocation. The hebrew 'shuk' is a modern appellation i think. Thx, tho.

 

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