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BIG Ben = BIG Awful (1 Viewer)

........

I'm glad that someone called you on your baiting. Your ignorance of football should really prevent anyone from taking you seriously. You do know that Hines Ward is 6', Lee Mays is 6'2" and Fred Gibson (who most likely won't make the cut) is 6'4".

.........
:hijacked: I havn't followed Fred Gibson progess so far but is he really so bad that he needs to be cut? How many WRs will make the team?
I think Gibson will make itDefinates:

Ward

Randel El

Cedric Wilson

Then, there's 4 people fighting for 2 or 3 roster spots, depending on if we go with 5 or 6 WRs.

Lee Mays (this guy sucks...he should be cut)

Sean Morey (miserable at WR but a Spec Teams monster)

Fred Gibson (had a bad early camp but still has potential at this point)

Nate Washington (all but a lock IMO, he's looked very good so far.)

If we go with 6 WRs, I'd cut Mays. If we go with 5, I'd cut Morey and Mays. but keep in mind the Steeler brass very rarely hit my hotline for an opinion :(

 
I am completely amazed sometimes by the crap I read on these boards. Seeing as some of you morons know so much, why the $%^& aren't you NFL coaches????

 
........

I'm glad that someone called you on your baiting.  Your ignorance of football should really prevent anyone from taking you seriously.  You do know that Hines Ward is 6', Lee Mays is 6'2" and Fred Gibson (who most likely won't make the cut) is 6'4". 

.........
:hijacked: I havn't followed Fred Gibson progess so far but is he really so bad that he needs to be cut? How many WRs will make the team?
I think Gibson will make itDefinates:

Ward

Randel El

Cedric Wilson

Then, there's 4 people fighting for 2 or 3 roster spots, depending on if we go with 5 or 6 WRs.

Lee Mays (this guy sucks...he should be cut)

Sean Morey (miserable at WR but a Spec Teams monster)

Fred Gibson (had a bad early camp but still has potential at this point)

Nate Washington (all but a lock IMO, he's looked very good so far.)

If we go with 6 WRs, I'd cut Mays. If we go with 5, I'd cut Morey and Mays. but keep in mind the Steeler brass very rarely hit my hotline for an opinion :(
:goodposting: Gibson will NOT be cut.

 
Pitt is primed for a typical season after unexpected success in the Cowher Era. 8-8 at best.

I'll even sig it.
I'd take that out of your sig...Cowher's career record is 138-86-1 - which means a typical season under Cowher is 10-6, not 8-8.

Pittsburgh has 9 division titles in the past 14 years under Cowher. A typical season means winning the division.

Look up the number of wins each franchise in the NFl has over the past 10 years. Then look at the past 20 years. Then look at the past 30 years.

Now tell me again that 8-8 is a "typical" season......

:no:

 
I'm down on Ward as well... if Ben is playing hesitant, he's not going to get too many balls to a constantly double teamed Ward.
Hey Evilgrin... I'd like to get your opinion on this. TIA
 
I'm down on Ward as well... if Ben is playing hesitant, he's not going to get too many balls to a constantly double teamed Ward.
Hey Evilgrin... I'd like to get your opinion on this. TIA
From the "Hines Ward - why no love?" thread :This is not necessarily true. Burress got a lot of double coverage because he was the primary deep threat. With teams forced to put so many guys into the box to stop the inevitable runs, they couldn't afford to leave Burress alone in one on one coverage streaking down the field. I don't think anyone can argue the fact that Ward is a better receiver than Burress, but teams were more content to let Ward "kill" them over the middle than they were to give up that one big game-changing play to Plax.

Also...

I don't think Randle-El will draw the same attention as Burress from the SE spot mainly because his size is not as intimidating, and defensive coordinators may be more apt to take their chances against him in man coverage than they were with Burress. However, I think it's a fallacy to assume that all the double teams and top CBs are going to be automatically shifted to Ward. If you DO believe that, I'd draft El in every league you're in because he'll end up with 1000+ yards and 7-10 TDs minimum in that scenario. El will still command as much attention as Ward due to the fact that Ward will still be operating in short to intermediate routes, while El will be the deep threat.

I wouldn't say Roethlisberger favored Burress, but one thing we did see time and again is that given the option, Ben liked to go to Plax. When plays broke down and Ben was forced to go off instinct rather than going through his progressions, the precentage of targets Burress received went WAY up. Whether that was a propensity to throw deep and go for the big play, or whether he was just more comfortable throwing to that big target remains to be seen. Personally, I don't think Randle-El will see as many looks on these plays as Plaxico did, due to his size, and the fact that Ben apparently had a really good relationship/rapport with Plax. That would cause Ward's target percentage to bit a bit higher than last year.

 
I'm down on Ward as well... if Ben is playing hesitant, he's not going to get too many balls to a constantly double teamed Ward.
Hey Evilgrin... I'd like to get your opinion on this. TIA
From the "Hines Ward - why no love?" thread :This is not necessarily true. Burress got a lot of double coverage because he was the primary deep threat. With teams forced to put so many guys into the box to stop the inevitable runs, they couldn't afford to leave Burress alone in one on one coverage streaking down the field. I don't think anyone can argue the fact that Ward is a better receiver than Burress, but teams were more content to let Ward "kill" them over the middle than they were to give up that one big game-changing play to Plax.

Also...

I don't think Randle-El will draw the same attention as Burress from the SE spot mainly because his size is not as intimidating, and defensive coordinators may be more apt to take their chances against him in man coverage than they were with Burress. However, I think it's a fallacy to assume that all the double teams and top CBs are going to be automatically shifted to Ward. If you DO believe that, I'd draft El in every league you're in because he'll end up with 1000+ yards and 7-10 TDs minimum in that scenario. El will still command as much attention as Ward due to the fact that Ward will still be operating in short to intermediate routes, while El will be the deep threat.

I wouldn't say Roethlisberger favored Burress, but one thing we did see time and again is that given the option, Ben liked to go to Plax. When plays broke down and Ben was forced to go off instinct rather than going through his progressions, the precentage of targets Burress received went WAY up. Whether that was a propensity to throw deep and go for the big play, or whether he was just more comfortable throwing to that big target remains to be seen. Personally, I don't think Randle-El will see as many looks on these plays as Plaxico did, due to his size, and the fact that Ben apparently had a really good relationship/rapport with Plax. That would cause Ward's target percentage to bit a bit higher than last year.
:goodposting: To whoever developed that insight, me like the logic.
 
This is not news. Any QB who starts 15 NFL games and averages 190 yards passing with roughly a TD and Int per week is not good.
That's about as misleading as to say any QB that starts 12+ NFL games and has less than 100 incompletions on the season is unbelievably accurate. As you can probably guess, Roethlisberger was the only guy to do that.
His completion % was awesome last year, but he hardly threw because Cowher had him on a short lease and they won with defense and a solid ground game.Like most QB's, Ben got too much credit for wins, however he didn't get enough blame for losses. Well this year, he will be exposed and make up for lost time. I don't know how anyone who has ever seen this guy play think he is good. He makes awful decisions, and is pretty easy to fluster. The only thing I like about him is his ability to scramble, which is surprisingly good. However, the book on Roth is to pressure him into mistakes, so he'll need his feet a lot this year until he proves he can beat somebody with his arm/brains.

GB Steelers homers supporting him, but he isn't taking this team anywhere this year.

 
I'm down on Ward as well... if Ben is playing hesitant, he's not going to get too many balls to a constantly double teamed Ward.
Hey Evilgrin... I'd like to get your opinion on this. TIA
From the "Hines Ward - why no love?" thread :This is not necessarily true. Burress got a lot of double coverage because he was the primary deep threat. With teams forced to put so many guys into the box to stop the inevitable runs, they couldn't afford to leave Burress alone in one on one coverage streaking down the field. I don't think anyone can argue the fact that Ward is a better receiver than Burress, but teams were more content to let Ward "kill" them over the middle than they were to give up that one big game-changing play to Plax.

Also...

I don't think Randle-El will draw the same attention as Burress from the SE spot mainly because his size is not as intimidating, and defensive coordinators may be more apt to take their chances against him in man coverage than they were with Burress. However, I think it's a fallacy to assume that all the double teams and top CBs are going to be automatically shifted to Ward. If you DO believe that, I'd draft El in every league you're in because he'll end up with 1000+ yards and 7-10 TDs minimum in that scenario. El will still command as much attention as Ward due to the fact that Ward will still be operating in short to intermediate routes, while El will be the deep threat.

I wouldn't say Roethlisberger favored Burress, but one thing we did see time and again is that given the option, Ben liked to go to Plax. When plays broke down and Ben was forced to go off instinct rather than going through his progressions, the precentage of targets Burress received went WAY up. Whether that was a propensity to throw deep and go for the big play, or whether he was just more comfortable throwing to that big target remains to be seen. Personally, I don't think Randle-El will see as many looks on these plays as Plaxico did, due to his size, and the fact that Ben apparently had a really good relationship/rapport with Plax. That would cause Ward's target percentage to bit a bit higher than last year.
:goodposting: To whoever developed that insight, me like the logic.
I'm quoting myself here.... :D
 
Obviously there are some Steeler haters and they have congregated here. I see the haters in question have ambiguous avatars, they are probably worried Raven fans trying to cope with the Kyle Boller experience.I especially like the Bills fan bashing Big Ben... :cough: Losman :cough: Can't wait to see how well he does...

 
Obviously there are some Steeler haters and they have congregated here.

I see the haters in question have ambiguous avatars, they are probably worried Raven fans trying to cope with the Kyle Boller experience.

I especially like the Bills fan bashing Big Ben... :cough: Losman :cough:

Can't wait to see how well he does...
Don't I remember you Steelers fans ranting about Kordel "slash" Stewart??? Big Ben could easily dissapoint like Slash. In saying that this year will determine alot. He is on the fence at this point and this year will determine if he falls to the good side or the dark side.
 
Don't I remember you Steelers fans ranting about Kordel "slash" Stewart???
Not me. I wasn't posting on these boards then, but I'll tell you exactly what I felt about him. I loved his athleticism and the added dimension his foot speed brought to the offense, but he couldn't hit the ocean from the beach with his passes. He brought excitement to the games, but given a situation where the Steelers had to come from behind and Kordell had to win it with his arm, he repeatedly came up short. I don't believe this will be the case with Roethlisberger, long term.
 
I don't know how anyone who has ever seen this guy play think he is good. He makes awful decisions, and is pretty easy to fluster.
Awful decisions, easy to fluster? Bud you are making yourself look foolish. From Stats Inc., I didn't have time to sort through each stat, but these tell the story.

NFL Leaders in QB Rating, 4th Quarter

(Thru games of Jan. 2, 2005)

(3.125 Att/Game)

Rank Player Team

1 Ben Roethlisberger Pit 118.5

2 Daunte Culpepper Min 111.7

3 Drew Brees SD 109.0

4 Peyton Manning Ind 95.2

NFL Leaders in QB Rating, Inside Opp 10

(Thru games of Jan. 2, 2005)

(0.625 Att/Game)

Rank Player Team

1 Ben Roethlisberger Pit 118.4

2 Tom Brady NE 114.5

3 Chad Pennington NYJ 112.1

4 Donovan McNabb Phi 105.8

NFL Leaders in %Passes Comp, Late & Close

(Thru games of Jan. 2, 2005)

(1.5625 Att/Game)

Rank Player Team

1 Ben Roethlisberger Pit 78.9 ( 30/38 )

2 Brian Griese TB 70.7 ( 41/58 )

3 Drew Brees SD 68.0 ( 34/50 )

4 Brett Favre GB 67.7 ( 42/62 )

5 Daunte Culpepper Min 67.6 ( 46/68 )

6 Peyton Manning Ind 66.7 ( 36/54 )

 
I don't know how anyone who has ever seen this guy play think he is good. He makes awful decisions, and is pretty easy to fluster.
Awful decisions, easy to fluster? Bud you are making yourself look foolish. From Stats Inc., I didn't have time to sort through each stat, but these tell the story.

NFL Leaders in QB Rating, 4th Quarter

(Thru games of Jan. 2, 2005)

(3.125 Att/Game)

Rank Player Team

1 Ben Roethlisberger Pit 118.5

2 Daunte Culpepper Min 111.7

3 Drew Brees SD 109.0

4 Peyton Manning Ind 95.2

NFL Leaders in QB Rating, Inside Opp 10

(Thru games of Jan. 2, 2005)

(0.625 Att/Game)

Rank Player Team

1 Ben Roethlisberger Pit 118.4

2 Tom Brady NE 114.5

3 Chad Pennington NYJ 112.1

4 Donovan McNabb Phi 105.8

NFL Leaders in %Passes Comp, Late & Close

(Thru games of Jan. 2, 2005)

(1.5625 Att/Game)

Rank Player Team

1 Ben Roethlisberger Pit 78.9 ( 30/38 )

2 Brian Griese TB 70.7 ( 41/58 )

3 Drew Brees SD 68.0 ( 34/50 )

4 Brett Favre GB 67.7 ( 42/62 )

5 Daunte Culpepper Min 67.6 ( 46/68 )

6 Peyton Manning Ind 66.7 ( 36/54 )
:goodposting: People remember nothing but the playoffs; admittedly he was poor, but it doesn't erase what happened in the prior 13 games. Ben may struggle here and there, but in the long haul, he's got a bright future.

 
I don't know how anyone who has ever seen this guy play think he is good. He makes awful decisions, and is pretty easy to fluster.
Awful decisions, easy to fluster? Bud you are making yourself look foolish. From Stats Inc., I didn't have time to sort through each stat, but these tell the story.
All due respect to you personally, but obviously we disagree. You can posts stats that say he's great, and I can counter with stats that say he only threw for over 200 yards four times in thirteen starts...we can both make a valid argument to back our point of view, so its a zero sum game. All I know is when I watch him, he looks like a deer in the headlights and his stats don't show his forced passes into double coverage and dropped interceptions.

The Steelers team around him (kudos to Cowher) are exceptional, however Ben is not. He may be great one day, but he isn't now, and he won't be this year.

 
I don't care what anyone says, Big Ben is a joke.  Starting last year and all preseason he has been so indecisive, that it is almost unwatchable.  Every time he drops back, he pats the ball 20 times before doing anything.  Then he starts to run, stops, taps the ball 10 more times, then runs again.I don't know what happened to the guy, but he now needs to call a timeout before he can decide if he wants to run, or throw that ball.  Say he's young and that is fine, that is one of the reasons he will suck this year.  Add in that the line will probably play worse then last year, the RB's are banged up and they have no WR over 5'10", and I would not draft him as my 5th QB.  I'm glad that even though I live in Pittsburgh, I'm not a huge Steeler fan, because it is going to be a long year.
I'm glad that someone called you on your baiting. Your ignorance of football should really prevent anyone from taking you seriously. You do know that Hines Ward is 6', Lee Mays is 6'2" and Fred Gibson (who most likely won't make the cut) is 6'4". Of course you're also uninformed enough to correlate height with success for receivers. Care to take a guess as to the height of Harrison, Wayne and Stokely? 6', 6', 5'11". Torry Holt and Isaac Bruce? 6', 6'. CJ and Houshmanzadeh? 6'1" and 6'1". If you want to cream your pants over every 6'4" workout wonder, be my guest, but remember Billy McMullen is 6'4". As for your comment on line play, this is another area in which you may wish to obtain a clue. Jags and Bengals are the only teams returning all of their starters from last year. Care to take a guess as to how many ROOKIES the greatest show on Turf are starting? 2 on the OL.

I'll agree that Roethlisberger has looked pretty god awful during the preseason, but hey, it's the preseason, I don't think I'd call him a joke yet. No game planning, no chance to get in rhythm, small sample size. Do you even know what the preseason is for? Coaches typically use it to a) get starting players back to game speed b) evaluate which marginal players to cut to field the starting roster. Of those two functions can you guess which one is more important. I'll give you a hint, it involves shaping the roster. Pre-season isn't for the players (and certainly not the fans) it's for the coaches.
Your are a wize man.Even though the height thing was kind of an exageration, I'm glad you took that to prove a point. So, Lee Mays and Fred Gibson are both tall. Who cares, they both are terrible. I'm not saying if your a tall WR you are good. If Lee Mays was on any other team, as long as he has been with the Steelers, he'd be cut. He has never done anything, and never will. It's time for him to move on. And Gibson, you even state he probably won't make the team. So when he's gone that leaves Hines at 6' (as you say), who is their only good WR. By the way, I saw Hines at a Dave 'n' Busters, and I'm only 5'11", and I was not looking up.

You mention, Harrison, Wayne, Stokely, Torry Holt, Isaac Bruce, CJ and Houshmanzadeh. All that I see you personally measured being you listed their exact height. Why would you bring these guys up? To compare any of these WR's to the likes of Randle-El and C. Wilson is an insult, and shows your are no pro scout. If they had a WR on the roster, outside of Ward, who could hold one of these guys jocks, maybe things would be different. I did not say all WR's under 6'2" sucked, so why you had to post that CJ was 6'1", is beyond me.

Again you wing and miss. I did not bring up any other o-line, or how many lineman were returning for any other team. What does it matter who CIN or JAC has coming back. I am not saying just because a team has a turnover on the o-line they will suck, I'm saying the o-line may take a step back, because Starks is a total unknown, and it is rare that all of your lineman make it through the entire season, wihtout an injury. That was my point. Again if you do not get it, I said it was rare for an entire o-line to go through an entire season w/o any injuries. Meaning that may not happen again this year, and if that is the case, they may have to rely on a rookie. That in my opinion could lead to the line under performing compared to last year.

Why is STL starting two rookies a point for you. Do you know these guys? Can you already tell me how they will perform this season? Are you saying that because 2 rookies are starting on the o-line for STL, that that makes it OK for all teams to do so? Does the structure of the STL o-line set the standards for the entire league? So STL is starting 2 rookies on their o-line this year. That must mean if a starter for the Steelers goes down and a rookie has to fill in, they will be fine. Yes I see your point, that makes total sense. If their doing it in STL, it must work. The Steeler o-line will be fine. Funny, and I need to get a clue.

No I didn't know what the preseason was for, so thank you. No matter what it is for, the guy has looked BAD. Just like he did at the end of last year. I know, they didn't game plan for those games against NYJ and NE either. Oh wait, those defenses were good. Whatever. Remember, the defenses he is facing now are not game planning for him either.

If you can honestly say you have watched each preseason game this year, and some of the late games last year, and don't think he looks VERY indecisive and lost out there, then you are blind. If he was making quick decisions, and getting rid of the ball, even if some of those decisions were wrong, I'd chalk that up to being a young QB. But the problem is he just does not react quick enough, and you can see him thinking way to much. All the tapping, pumping and hesitating makes that very clear.

Lasty if Cowher was "shaping" his roster, Alonzo Jackson would have been sent home already.

Good day.
Okay, last things first. As stated in my response I think that Big Ben has looked "god awful" in the pre-season. Based on those observations, I'm not going to toss out a season worth of data and pronounce him a "joke". Right back to business. The height issue, you were clearly trying to make a point there. Par for the course you don't really manage to articulate it. So why don't you try again. Reading between the lines the comment "they have no WR over 5'10" " when you were listing the negatives about the Steelers led me to believe that you felt wide receiver height is a substantial predictor of talent. If you meant something else, by all means let me know. As for me personally measuring people, you did mention that you saw Hines ward and he didn't look 6' to you. I tend to go off of the published heights, which are about as accurate as you're gonna get.

Holt, Bruce, Wayne, Harrison, etc. were brought up as examples of teams with pretty effective receiving corps where there's not a 6'5" burner among the group. The Steelers have two good wide receivers. Ward has been to 4 straight pro bowls and Randle El is no slouch, he's just lacked opportunity. In the 5 games missed by Burress he averaged 4 catches and 70 yards/gm, vs. 2 catches and 22yds when Burress was healthy. 64 catches and 1120 yds as a #2 target is a pretty good stat line.

Now to O-Lines. Admittedly I didn't double check my sources and incorrectly stated St. Louis was starting two Rooks. I guess now they'll just be My bad, I guess the "Big Picture" on this site needs an update. The point is that Rookie O-Linemen are not the end of the world. The fact that you think Keydrick Vincent (that's the other guy) and Oliver Ross had career years shows that you might be smart enough to be a GM for a great franchise like the Arizona Cardinals. The steelers ran for 4.81 adjusted line yards per attempt over left Tackle and 3.64 Adj. Ln. Yds. over right tackle. That's an enormous difference between run blocking on opposite sides of the same line.

JAC and CIN were mentioned to point out that offensive lines always have turnover in the NFL. And every line that has turnover can't possibly take a step back, or else NFL lines would be in a constant state of regression. This is called supporting your argument with facts rather than spouting opinions. You should try it sometime.

Just so know know, first year starters with a similar statistical season to Ben last year; Brady, Montana, McMahon and Favre. I'll take that company any day.

As far as roster shaping, again I'll toss you a clue, final cut down is tomorrow at 6pm. Jackson will be hitting the streets by then. It is kind of hard to walk away from a second round draft pick, but it has to happen.

 
I don't care what anyone says, Big Ben is a joke.  Starting last year and all preseason he has been so indecisive, that it is almost unwatchable.  Every time he drops back, he pats the ball 20 times before doing anything.  Then he starts to run, stops, taps the ball 10 more times, then runs again.I don't know what happened to the guy, but he now needs to call a timeout before he can decide if he wants to run, or throw that ball.  Say he's young and that is fine, that is one of the reasons he will suck this year.  Add in that the line will probably play worse then last year, the RB's are banged up and they have no WR over 5'10", and I would not draft him as my 5th QB.  I'm glad that even though I live in Pittsburgh, I'm not a huge Steeler fan, because it is going to be a long year.
I'm glad that someone called you on your baiting. Your ignorance of football should really prevent anyone from taking you seriously. You do know that Hines Ward is 6', Lee Mays is 6'2" and Fred Gibson (who most likely won't make the cut) is 6'4". Of course you're also uninformed enough to correlate height with success for receivers. Care to take a guess as to the height of Harrison, Wayne and Stokely? 6', 6', 5'11". Torry Holt and Isaac Bruce? 6', 6'. CJ and Houshmanzadeh? 6'1" and 6'1". If you want to cream your pants over every 6'4" workout wonder, be my guest, but remember Billy McMullen is 6'4". As for your comment on line play, this is another area in which you may wish to obtain a clue. Jags and Bengals are the only teams returning all of their starters from last year. Care to take a guess as to how many ROOKIES the greatest show on Turf are starting? 2 on the OL.

I'll agree that Roethlisberger has looked pretty god awful during the preseason, but hey, it's the preseason, I don't think I'd call him a joke yet. No game planning, no chance to get in rhythm, small sample size. Do you even know what the preseason is for? Coaches typically use it to a) get starting players back to game speed b) evaluate which marginal players to cut to field the starting roster. Of those two functions can you guess which one is more important. I'll give you a hint, it involves shaping the roster. Pre-season isn't for the players (and certainly not the fans) it's for the coaches.
Your are a wize man.Even though the height thing was kind of an exageration, I'm glad you took that to prove a point. So, Lee Mays and Fred Gibson are both tall. Who cares, they both are terrible. I'm not saying if your a tall WR you are good. If Lee Mays was on any other team, as long as he has been with the Steelers, he'd be cut. He has never done anything, and never will. It's time for him to move on. And Gibson, you even state he probably won't make the team. So when he's gone that leaves Hines at 6' (as you say), who is their only good WR. By the way, I saw Hines at a Dave 'n' Busters, and I'm only 5'11", and I was not looking up.

You mention, Harrison, Wayne, Stokely, Torry Holt, Isaac Bruce, CJ and Houshmanzadeh. All that I see you personally measured being you listed their exact height. Why would you bring these guys up? To compare any of these WR's to the likes of Randle-El and C. Wilson is an insult, and shows your are no pro scout. If they had a WR on the roster, outside of Ward, who could hold one of these guys jocks, maybe things would be different. I did not say all WR's under 6'2" sucked, so why you had to post that CJ was 6'1", is beyond me.

Again you wing and miss. I did not bring up any other o-line, or how many lineman were returning for any other team. What does it matter who CIN or JAC has coming back. I am not saying just because a team has a turnover on the o-line they will suck, I'm saying the o-line may take a step back, because Starks is a total unknown, and it is rare that all of your lineman make it through the entire season, wihtout an injury. That was my point. Again if you do not get it, I said it was rare for an entire o-line to go through an entire season w/o any injuries. Meaning that may not happen again this year, and if that is the case, they may have to rely on a rookie. That in my opinion could lead to the line under performing compared to last year.

Why is STL starting two rookies a point for you. Do you know these guys? Can you already tell me how they will perform this season? Are you saying that because 2 rookies are starting on the o-line for STL, that that makes it OK for all teams to do so? Does the structure of the STL o-line set the standards for the entire league? So STL is starting 2 rookies on their o-line this year. That must mean if a starter for the Steelers goes down and a rookie has to fill in, they will be fine. Yes I see your point, that makes total sense. If their doing it in STL, it must work. The Steeler o-line will be fine. Funny, and I need to get a clue.

No I didn't know what the preseason was for, so thank you. No matter what it is for, the guy has looked BAD. Just like he did at the end of last year. I know, they didn't game plan for those games against NYJ and NE either. Oh wait, those defenses were good. Whatever. Remember, the defenses he is facing now are not game planning for him either.

If you can honestly say you have watched each preseason game this year, and some of the late games last year, and don't think he looks VERY indecisive and lost out there, then you are blind. If he was making quick decisions, and getting rid of the ball, even if some of those decisions were wrong, I'd chalk that up to being a young QB. But the problem is he just does not react quick enough, and you can see him thinking way to much. All the tapping, pumping and hesitating makes that very clear.

Lasty if Cowher was "shaping" his roster, Alonzo Jackson would have been sent home already.

Good day.
Okay, last things first. As stated in my response I think that Big Ben has looked "god awful" in the pre-season. Based on those observations, I'm not going to toss out a season worth of data and pronounce him a "joke". Right back to business. The height issue, you were clearly trying to make a point there. Par for the course you don't really manage to articulate it. So why don't you try again. Reading between the lines the comment "they have no WR over 5'10" " when you were listing the negatives about the Steelers led me to believe that you felt wide receiver height is a substantial predictor of talent. If you meant something else, by all means let me know. As for me personally measuring people, you did mention that you saw Hines ward and he didn't look 6' to you. I tend to go off of the published heights, which are about as accurate as you're gonna get.

Holt, Bruce, Wayne, Harrison, etc. were brought up as examples of teams with pretty effective receiving corps where there's not a 6'5" burner among the group. The Steelers have two good wide receivers. Ward has been to 4 straight pro bowls and Randle El is no slouch, he's just lacked opportunity. In the 5 games missed by Burress he averaged 4 catches and 70 yards/gm, vs. 2 catches and 22yds when Burress was healthy. 64 catches and 1120 yds as a #2 target is a pretty good stat line.

Now to O-Lines. Admittedly I didn't double check my sources and incorrectly stated St. Louis was starting two Rooks. I guess now they'll just be My bad, I guess the "Big Picture" on this site needs an update. The point is that Rookie O-Linemen are not the end of the world. The fact that you think Keydrick Vincent (that's the other guy) and Oliver Ross had career years shows that you might be smart enough to be a GM for a great franchise like the Arizona Cardinals. The steelers ran for 4.81 adjusted line yards per attempt over left Tackle and 3.64 Adj. Ln. Yds. over right tackle. That's an enormous difference between run blocking on opposite sides of the same line.

JAC and CIN were mentioned to point out that offensive lines always have turnover in the NFL. And every line that has turnover can't possibly take a step back, or else NFL lines would be in a constant state of regression. This is called supporting your argument with facts rather than spouting opinions. You should try it sometime.

Just so know know, first year starters with a similar statistical season to Ben last year; Brady, Montana, McMahon and Favre. I'll take that company any day.

As far as roster shaping, again I'll toss you a clue, final cut down is tomorrow at 6pm. Jackson will be hitting the streets by then. It is kind of hard to walk away from a second round draft pick, but it has to happen.
I'm not going to go on and on about this, because I got way to much to do to get ready for my big $$$ draft tomorrow, but I'll lasty say this.Again, the fact that there are go short WR's in the league, does nothing to validate any Steeler WR under 6'. Nor does them being under 6' mean they will suck. I just belive they do.

I don't care when a guy was drafted, and yes, Alonzo Jackson probably will be gone tomorrow, the fact is he should already be gone. Cowher always says he will keep the best 53 men. If one of your best 53 is Jackson, your in trouble. But that has nothing to do with this thread.

5 games does not a season make.

I know that all teams don't return all starters on the o-line. That is noty my point. All I was saying is that all 5 o-lineman played all 16 games together last year. That IS RARE in the NFL. I believe that by doing so, they were a very good unit, even with a patchwork left side. 3.64yd/carry for those guys is a career year. And no, if I was a GM I would not want them. To compare just about any combo of RG & RT in the entire NFL to Faneca and Smith is a joke. And to do so with Vincent and Ross shows you will throw out any lame stats to prove a point. I never said they are as good as Faneca and Smith, but neither are Simmons and Starks. Starks will be fine, OK Kevin Colbert. I know some rookie o-lineman can come in and play, but answer me this:

Who would you rather have starting on the o-line for the Steelers this season?

Smith, Faneca, Hartings, Vincent, Ross

(OR)

Smith, Faneca, Harting, ROOKIE, Starks

The later group could not be chosen, and backed up with a logical response.

They're one K. Simmons injury away from that starting unit. And don't say you can't predict injuries, because I am not saying that one of their o-lineman WILL get injured. Just that if they do, and Simmons has a history, they would Probably play worse then last year.

Lastly, I have no idea why people are throwing out stats, and you say look at Brady, Montana, McMahon and Favre in their first year. I don't care. My original point, and I will stand by it because anyone who has watched the guy play, and has any sense would agree, that he has looked terrible over the entire preseason and late last year. That is a fact that you say you agree with. And like I said earlier, it's not making bad reads or bad throws terrible, it is deer in the headlights terrible. A look no one wants to see from their QB. I know it's only preseason and the offense is not game planning, but neither are the defenses that seem to be confusing the hell out of the guy. He just looks like he is lost out there. I believe that he has looked that way enough times to be concerned. If you do not, that is fine. Time will tell, and if they struggle out of the gates this year, I'm sure you will just say, "hey it's only 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 games, the guy is young."

Anyway I have no more to add. He has looked terrible for a while now, and that can not be disputed.

And Randle-El sucks.

Thank You

 
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Just out of curiosity, who do you pull for 4 digit-shark...
As I have said before, I live in Pittsburgh, but am not a die hard Steeler fan. That said, I am much happier when they do win. But, I am not going to just support what they do and say, because it is my home team. The Steelers have been a successful franchise, but they have not won the super bowl in over 20 years. Some people in this town seem to forget that. We are not the City of Champions anymore. I know they have won many didvision titles, and that is great, but the value of doing that now has diminished slighty, with 4 team divisions.I am not a Steeler hater, nor do I wear Black and Gold glasses. I just try to tell things how I see them. If people agree, that is fine, if not, that is fine as well. I may be a little overly harsh at times, but if they look bad, they look bad, and I will point it out. I hope Ben does turn it around when the regular season starts, I just don't think it is as sure too happen, as some here do.

Here we go!

ETA: Just because someone points out negatives about a team, does not mean they do not hope they win. People that blindly follow the team, and won't acknowledge when they are playing bad, are just blinded by loyalty.

 
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"5 Games does not a season make". Yet you are willing to write off a career on 2 playoff and 4 preseason games (where a total of 36 pass attempts are made). Your consistency is amazing. I understand your aversion to "lame stats", you prefer unsupported opinions and straw man arguments. I hope the fellas in your $$$ league enjoy having a guppy like you to feed on. If you can explain to me how a 68% Catch % age and 14 y/catch (Harrison is 62% and 12 yd/catch for reference) sucks, without resorting to "he just does", I'd love to hear it. You've admitted that Ross and Vincent were substantially below the talent on the other side of the line, and the Steelers did fine, so a downgrade (which would be a Rookie in place of Simmons) shouldn't cause too many problems. But I'm sure you'll find some other loudmouth opinion to spout once you're done getting fleeced at the draft.Have Fun.

 
"5 Games does not a season make". 

Yet you are willing to write off a career on 2 playoff and 4 preseason games (where a total of 36 pass attempts are made).  Your consistency is amazing.  I understand your aversion to "lame stats", you prefer unsupported opinions and straw man arguments. 

I hope the fellas in your $$$ league enjoy having a guppy like you to feed on.  If you can explain to me how a 68% Catch % age and 14 y/catch (Harrison is 62% and 12 yd/catch for reference) sucks, without resorting to "he just does", I'd love to hear it. 

You've admitted that Ross and Vincent were substantially below the talent on the other side of the line, and the Steelers did fine, so a downgrade (which would be a Rookie in place of Simmons) shouldn't cause too many problems. 

But I'm sure you'll find some other loudmouth opinion to spout once you're done getting fleeced at the draft.

Have Fun.
Honestly Roddy, this is my last post here.The guppy thing is good. It gives me a good idea about the type of person you are. You don't know me, have no idea about me and really I think that type of stuff is not needed. I'm not going to throw out anything in my defense, because your not worth the time. If your in the Pittsburgh area though, I'd offer you an invite to my league draft tomorrow, so you can personally rate my performance.

I'm not writing off a career. I'm saying the guy has looked real bad, and I think there is a good possibilty that that will continue into the season. Period. Maybe my use of the word joke, hit home too hard or something, but the way he has been playing just does not look good. You think it is automatic that we will do well this season, and I think there is a better chance he will not. We disagree and thats fine.

I know Ross and Vincent are not as good as Faneca and Smith, but the way they played last year (over achieving), could be on par with Simmons and Starks, and would be better then ROOKIE and Starks or ROOKIE and any 4 lineman. (You did not answer that question by the way)

We can agree to disagree. I should have stressed more that my mian point was that Ben has looked like crap, and I m affriad I think it will continue. Throwing in the O-line and WR's got this way off track. Eventhough I do not like the WR's as a whole, and think the o-line is one injury away from trouble.

BUT,

YOU just compared A. RANDLE-EL to MARVIN HARRISON.

HARRISON:

+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| Rushing | Receiving |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| 1996 ind | 16 | 3 15 5.0 0 | 64 836 13.1 8 |

| 1997 ind | 16 | 2 -7 -3.5 0 | 73 866 11.9 6 |

| 1998 ind | 12 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 59 776 13.2 7 |

| 1999 ind | 16 | 1 4 4.0 0 | 115 1663 14.5 12 |

| 2000 ind | 16 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 102 1413 13.9 14 |

| 2001 ind | 16 | 1 3 3.0 0 | 109 1524 14.0 15 |

| 2002 ind | 16 | 2 10 5.0 0 | 143 1722 12.0 11 |

| 2003 ind | 15 | 1 3 3.0 0 | 94 1272 13.5 10 |

| 2004 ind | 16 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 86 1113 12.9 15 |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| TOTAL | 139 | 10 28 2.8 0 | 845 11185 13.2 98 |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

EL:

+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| Rushing | Receiving |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| 2002 pit | 16 | 19 134 7.1 0 | 47 489 10.4 2 |

| 2003 pit | 13 | 15 75 5.0 0 | 37 364 9.8 1 |

| 2004 pit | 16 | 8 34 4.2 0 | 43 601 14.0 3 |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| TOTAL | 45 | 42 243 5.8 0 | 127 1454 11.4 6 |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

:goodposting:

:confused:

You Win!!! :bye:

 
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Ben is a top 15 QB this year.
:lmao:
in my league he was 20th last year, and the difference between 20th and 15th was 30 pts over 16 games. In other words he needs to avg only a couple more pts per game than last year. I dont think that's out of his reach, obviously to go 13-1 and lead your team to the AFC Championship game, you have a good skill set. Whatever "IT" is, Roethlisberger sure has it. I believe in him anyhow.
 
The only Steeler worth having this year is Ward, and he's slipping on my sheet.
:penalty: FWP

:football:

Seriously, as long as they have their offensive line going, they'll be fine and that will help Ben's confidence.

 
My theory:Ben was thrust into the lineup hastily when Maddox went down, and without having time to think about it too much, he had some early, modest success which carried him throughout the season. Now he's had an entire offseason to digest the enormity of being the starting quarterback of the Pittsburgh Steelers - not to mention having time to read his press clippings - and he looks overwhelmed by the prospect.The reality is that he is much closer to the QB who struggled mightily vs. the Jets and Pats in the playoffs than he is to the QB who led Pittsburgh to the impressive win streak.
:goodposting:
 
M'Kay, when and where are you drafting, I'll try to make it if I can, but this being Labor Day weekend and all, I think there might be something on my schedule. Thx for the invite though. To answer your question about o-line, I did say that it would be a downgrade to have a rookie start in place of one of the current starters, that's thin limb you've gone out on and you've gotten me to agree with it. The comparison of Ross and Vincent to Faneca and Smith is indeed an unfair one, so how about we look at their performance with respect to the rest of the league. The 3.64 Adj. Line Yards running over RT Tackle was 29th best in the league. Buffalo was the worst at 2.94 Adj. Line Yards over right tackle. So even though it could get worse...it won't get that much worse. Maybe since you are unfamiliar with "stats" and statistical methods you're not comfortable with the idea that samples (in this case receiver stats from a given season) can be compared without being deemed comparable. You first started off with something about the Steelers having an undersized receiving corps. When it was pointed out that size and skill aren't necessarily correlated you changed your tune. Now they only have one good receiver. When I pointed out that Randle El put up solid numbers in the games where Burress was injured, you replied that 5 games doesn't make a season, which is a totally fair point. You also threw in that Randle El sucks, so well reasoned, how could I argue. Since Randle El doesn't have the gaudy numbers of a good #1 or #2 receiver, because he had been well a #3 wide receiver for his first 3 years the only really valid metrics are efficiency based. Catch percentage and yards per catch are 2 fairly good efficiency metrics. Since I realized you weren't really familiar with "stats" I thought I would be courteous and put in a point of comparison, and why not use a receiver that you think "doesn't suck" as that point of comparison. Now to be clear (because you appear to need things spelled out for you) I am not saying Randle El is a better receiver than Harrison, nor am I saying that if Indy offered to trade Harrison straight up for Randle El that I wouldn't jump on the offer. I'm also not saying Randle El has had a better career than Harrison. I don't know who is better looking either, so I'm not trying to say anything in that regard. What I am saying is that a player who has demonstrated efficiency stats on par with one of the best receivers in the game in his limited opportunities does not suck. What I want to know is how do you arrive at that conclusion that he does? And you've dodged that question once again.I'm sorry this is your last post on the subject...it's been ever so fun to watch you spew and backpedal. Be sure to let me know if you want to do this again sometime!! Have a neat summer.

 
I have posted on Ben many times. I think he is greatly overrated by many here on this board.On the loss of Burress:

it is worth noting that Burress averaged 19.9 yards per catch last season. Obviously, he and Ben were able to hook up on medium to deep passes fairly often, and that helped boost Ben's ypa. Will ARE or someone else be able to fill that role this year? Ward and ARE averaged 12.6 and 14.0 ypc respectively last season.
On the success of Cowher's fantasy QBs:
If you look further back into Cowher's history, he has shown that he will allow his QBs to throw plenty. Neil O'Donnell played 54 games as a Steeler under Bill Cowher. He attempted 1585 passes during those games. That's an average of 29.352 passing attempts/game. That averages out to 470 attempts over the course of a sixteen game season....Tommy Maddox threw the ball 519 times as Cowher's quarterback in 2003...
O'Donnell finished as QB16, QB11, QB20, QB21 from 1992-1995 under Cowher. Not a viable fantasy starter unless you play in a huge league.In 1996, Tomczak was the leading QB and finished as QB21.Kordell finished as QB2 in 1997, but that was mostly because of his 88/476/11 rushing. He also finished as QB9 in 2001, when he had 96/537/5 rushing. In between he finished as QB16, QB31, and QB17 from 1998-2000.You also mentioned Maddox. He finished as QB22 in 2002 and QB16 in 2003, his two years as the Steelers' primary starter.So, while it is true that Cowher has adapted and passed more at times, it is not true that he has produced any viable starting fantasy QBs other than Stewart. Stewart was worthy for two years thanks to his rushing totals.Unless you think Roethlisberger is going to compile Kordell-like rushing totals, there is no favorable comparison to be gained from Cowher's history.You can certainly take the position that Roethlisberger is better than Cowher's previous QBs, but that remains to be proven (EDIT: from a fantasy perspective, at least) at this point.
On Roethlisberger's performance last season:
look at Roethlisberger's splits (14 games, so 7 and 7):First 7 games: 107/155 (69%), 188 passing yards per game (8.5 ypa), 11 passing TDs, 5 interceptions, 16.4 fantasy points per gameLast 7 games: 89/140 (64%), 186 passing yards per game (9.3 ypa), 6 passing TDs, 6 interceptions, 13.4 fantasy points per gameHe played worse in his second half, not better. From a fantasy perspective, he had 4 of his 5 worst games in his last 7 games. And he followed that decline by playing poorly in the playoffs, when he was 31/54 (57%) for 407 yards, 3 TDs, and 5 interceptions in 2 games.
So it was more than just the playoffs. It was the last half of last season, followed by the playoffs, followed by a lousy preseason. Ben has played 16 regular or post season games and this preseason, and he has had precious few impressive performances, at least from a fantasy perspective.
 
People seem to be overreacting a bit considering this is only preseason and Ben really has not played very much. Ward held out and Plax is gone in free agency. The Oline is still gelling.Game 1 vs. Philly 4 attempts 2 completions 13 yards 0 TD 0 Int 1 rush 4 yardsGame 2 vs.Dolphins 11 attempts 6 completions 51 yards 0 TD 1 Int 2 rushes 14 yardsGame 3 vs. Washington 15 atempts 6 completions 57 yards 0 TD 1 Int 1 rush for 9 yardsGame 4 vs. Carolina 6 attempts 2 completions 24 yards 0 TD 0 Int2 rushes for 20 yardsThe Steelers played against some of the best defenses in the league during this preseason. Maybe Miami is not that great anymore but they are not bad. The other 3 defenses are definitly good and it seems that during preseason defenses have an advantage when both sides are playing limited packages.Ben did not throw any TD passes in any of these games seems to be the worst thing about his performance but it is hard to say that he really got a chance to get into a rhythm when his highest number of attempts out of any of these games was 15. He threw interceptions in the 2 games that he actualy had over 10 pass attempts which killed scoring opportunities as well.He is a young player and is going have some struggles while developing. I could see these growing pains carrying into the regular season as the recievers still seem to be adjusting right now as well. I think there may be somthing to the loss of Plax being a large target that Ben would go to when in trouble. I think Heath Miller needs to develop at that bail out option for Ben but he is a rookie learning to play right now. Ward is still trying to get up to speed after holding out and his contract status may be effecting his attitude. El is a very different player than Plax and Ben is probobly still getting used to that. It is not like Ben has a great ammount of experience and versitility at this level yet.Still this is preseason and I think people may be over reacting a bit here. I fully expect Ben to lose some games with stoopid mistakes this year. But he has not been given the opportunity to fight through this funk in any of these preseason games yet so far. And I expect that he will be able to do that when the games count.What goes up must come down and Ben has had more than his share of success so far so I expect that to even itself out for awhile before he turns the corner again which I believe he will based off of his past performance.Right now is a good time to beat the Steelers because they will improve as the season goes on I think. They are a bit behind in terms of synchronicity as a offense right now. But I would not count on the Titans winning this 1st game of the year although it may be played ugly while the Steelers offense gels. I don't see that they have been able to do that yet.I still think that Ben is one of the best Qbs to come in to the league in many years but it is to be expected that a young Qb will have some growing pains and Ben did so well in his rookie year that those lumps have been delayed a bit.He is taking them now.If your playing Dynasty I recomend this as a great buy low opportunity to get Ben in a trade because I fully expect him to turn the corner and once he does it will be too late to get him at any reasonable price.

 
I think Ben will benefit from having W. Parker at RB. If defenses cheat with the blitz and PIT runs it with Willie, once he gets past the line it's bye-bye. After a few of these scorchings, the DEF will back off and the underneath routes will open up. JMO.

 
To be honest, I'm amazed at the amount of thinking and work going into big Ben... there are SO MANY better QBs where hyperbole would more likely pay out...two word analysis of Big Ben...Byron Leftwich...

 
I think Roethlisberger does have a bright future ahead of him (like some have already said), but I do think he is going to struggle this season. The loss of their number two receiver is going to hurt and the Steelers running game may struggle early and often because of the injuries to their primary backs. All of this is going to put more pressure on Roethlisberger and he is still only a second year player. I, also, wonder if there will be a bit of a hangover by the Steelers defense. I have seen it before where a great defense gets their asses handed to them in a playoff game (like Pitt did by New England) and then struggles the next season to regain their dominance. I predict the Steelers win no more than 8 or 9 games and miss the playoffs.

 
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I don't care what anyone says, Big Ben is a joke. Starting last year and all preseason he has been so indecisive, that it is almost unwatchable.  Every time he drops back, he pats the ball 20 times before doing anything.  Then he starts to run, stops, taps the ball 10 more times, then runs again.I don't know what happened to the guy, but he now needs to call a timeout before he can decide if he wants to run, or throw that ball.  Say he's young and that is fine, that is one of the reasons he will suck this year.  Add in that the line will probably play worse then last year, the RB's are banged up and they have no WR over 5'10", and I would not draft him as my 5th QB.  I'm glad that even though I live in Pittsburgh, I'm not a huge Steeler fan, because it is going to be a long year.
:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
 
:lmao:Yeah, looked like Roethlisberger really missed Burress today. I guess he IS a joke.[rub it in]158.3 rating[/rub it in]

 
Funny but EVERY year people watch the preseason and think it has something to do with how they will perform in the regular season. Bulger and Steven Jackson couldn't be stopped and Ben couldn't do a lick. ;)

 
Someone who didn't watch the game will post how Ben had nothing to do with this win, just like last year.The guy was sharp and accurate today, and he made plays moving out of the pocket and avoiding passrushers. He was awesome today. It's amazing that he only had 2 passes in the 2nd half, but the game wasn't close.

 
Someone who didn't watch the game will post how Ben had nothing to do with this win, just like last year.

The guy was sharp and accurate today, and he made plays moving out of the pocket and avoiding passrushers. He was awesome today.

It's amazing that he only had 2 passes in the 2nd half, but the game wasn't close.
Props to him, he played well. As a side note, why did they bother to pay Ward? He is persona non grata in their offense.

 
Damn near about as perfect a rating as you can get. I think we have silenced the critics......for this week.I got 4 digits for ya pal - 158.3

 
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As I said earlier, it was PRESEASON. The guy is fine. He'll be a better QB this year than last year. The Steelers probably won't win 15 games, but Ben will continue to get better. The talk shows will be interesting to listen to this week. I wonder if anybody will still be calling for Maddox.

 
Someone who didn't watch the game will post how Ben had nothing to do with this win, just like last year.

The guy was sharp and accurate today, and he made plays moving out of the pocket and avoiding passrushers. He was awesome today.

It's amazing that he only had 2 passes in the 2nd half, but the game wasn't close.
Props to him, he played well. As a side note, why did they bother to pay Ward? He is persona non grata in their offense.
:nerd:
 

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