AhrnCityPahnder
Yinz-o-riffic
Switz: Just for the record, Give us some projections for this upcoming year.
I'm going to go with
2860 yards, 25 TDs, 12 INts
I'm going to go with
2860 yards, 25 TDs, 12 INts
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Big Ben Whining AGAIN! (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter NorrisB
- Start date
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
That's what everyone said about him finishing 1st and 5th in adjusted yards per attempt his first two seasons ("Oh, it was only 250 attempts, when he throws the ball 25 times a game, that number will go through the floor, etc.. etc..) Now, this year, when he threw it over 25 times a game, and STILL was 3rd in adjusted YPA, you're going to compare him to other QBs that average MORE attempts per game. The Steelers are a run-first team, always will be. A Steeler QB is never going to throw the ball 550 times a year, you cannot hold that against Ben. He's proven that as his workload increase, he can maintain the same level of production, so this argument is bunk.
Road Warriors
Footballguy
Jumping in late, but to answer your question on projection going forward...Looking back at Ben's career #s, I discount year 1 ( rookie, held in check by coaching ) and year 3 ( motorcycle injury ). The biggest anomoly in the 4 years are his TDs in year 4 and his ints in year 3. I believe the ints were the true anomoly, from what I've seen of his play.Even eliminating that year, his best season is 18 TDs.You can't acknowledge that this year wasn't consistent with his past performances? Which do you think is more likely - Ben throwing closer to 32 or 18 TDs?
If you look at his 2005 season, he had 17 tds in only 268 attempts. This year he had about +50% attempts and nearly +100% TDs. I'd claim that the +50% attempts ( 404 in 2007 ) is probably a bit closer to the standard going forward than the earlier 2005 ( 268 att ). I'd expect a median of about 26 TD / year given his body of work so far, with some upside. The question is whether his TD% is climbing ( 5.8, 6.3, 3.8, 7.9 ) or will regress back some.
I guess the question comes down to if you believe the 2006 #s are due to the motorcycle injury and its side effects of no training camp etc. and discount or discard those numbers, Roethlisberger's numbers actually support a much higher likelihood of producing near the upper 20s - lower 30s regularly.
AhrnCityPahnder
Yinz-o-riffic
You too Norris....lets see some projections for next year.
switz
Footballguy
Fair enough:353 atts, 228 completions, 23TD, 14 INT, 2972 yards. My projections aren't that far off of yours. In fact my yardage is higher. Good for about 230 points in my league, which was good for #12 among QBs this past year (Ben finished 6th this past year).Anyway, as I said in my last post, I'm done with talking about Roeth. We'll see what happens.
Switz I believe you're using a double standard here. You're hyping up Edwards based on his potential and saying he will get a lot better, but then you look at Roethlisberger and question his improvement in numbers and ask if 2007 was an anomaly in comparison to his first 2 years.
The truth is that Roethlisberger, like you expect Edwards to do, IMPROVED since his first 2 years. This is actually the problem people tend to have when looking at Ben's career. Since he was so good his first 2 years, people tended to and sometimes still view him as a finished product back then, which is silly. He was a firts and 2nd year QB just like everyone else, he was just, well BETTER than pretty all other first and 2nd year QB's. If any season was an anomaly, it was his 3rd, because of the rare series of awful injuries right before the season. There's no need to dissect and find some other reason why his numbers improved, he just flat out became a better QB, which in turn led to the coaches allowing him to open up the offense more, as coaches do with all young QB's as they show they can handle the load.
I expect Roethlisberger to be at least as good in 2008 as he was last year, and it's possible he could improve even a little bit.
My projections:
3,512 yards
63% completion
29 TD's
15 INT's
The truth is that Roethlisberger, like you expect Edwards to do, IMPROVED since his first 2 years. This is actually the problem people tend to have when looking at Ben's career. Since he was so good his first 2 years, people tended to and sometimes still view him as a finished product back then, which is silly. He was a firts and 2nd year QB just like everyone else, he was just, well BETTER than pretty all other first and 2nd year QB's. If any season was an anomaly, it was his 3rd, because of the rare series of awful injuries right before the season. There's no need to dissect and find some other reason why his numbers improved, he just flat out became a better QB, which in turn led to the coaches allowing him to open up the offense more, as coaches do with all young QB's as they show they can handle the load.
I expect Roethlisberger to be at least as good in 2008 as he was last year, and it's possible he could improve even a little bit.
My projections:
3,512 yards
63% completion
29 TD's
15 INT's
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fred_1_15301
Footballguy
Yeah I've provided "nothing but attacks"
. I've provided you a statistical breakdown comparing each player. You've provided absolutely nothing. I'm flattered to be on your ignore list because you're not worth continuing this debate with. As I said up front, you're just a hater.....
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
What are the odds that this guy revisits this topic next year? It's always easy to make bold statements when you don't have to back anything up. Making the claim (right now) that you think Edwards is a better qb than Ben is a bold statement.
FUBAR
Footballguy
Let's see24th in attempts per game14th in yardage7th in %2nd in rating2nd in TD/INT Division Championship, Playoffs, 10-6Maybe he's just so effective he doesn't need to throw more often, and he wasn't going after a record. Still, imagine what he'll do with a tall WR
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Getting back on subject:
As expected, this is much ado about nothing.
This year is going to be a real test for Ben and this Steelers team. They have the hardest schedule in the league on paper next season and mounting issues on the O-Line and defense. If Ben can put up solid numbers this year and bring the Steelers back to the play-offs he'll have proved himself beyond any shadow of a doubt. Should be exciting, but if there was a year to bet that Ben and the Steelers will struggle this would be the year.
ETA: I think this will probably mean Big Ben's pass attempts won't drop since the games should be much closer against tougher competition. Normally the Steelers shut down on offense when they get a 10-point lead and Ben’s pass attempts have dropped in the second half.
ETA: I think this will probably mean Big Ben's pass attempts won't drop since the games should be much closer against tougher competition. Normally the Steelers shut down on offense when they get a 10-point lead and Ben’s pass attempts have dropped in the second half.
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chris1969
Footballguy
Ohhhhhh! So it's all fine and dandy because you didn't start your own thread. I stand corrected. The fact that you guys post in our threads as much as we do and never have one objective thing to say doesn't make you obsessed because you didn't start the thread! And your probably whining about all those Browns, Bengals and Ravens haters just to demonstrate what whining really is. After all what Big Ben said was minor in comparison.Commenting on the Browns as a division rival and throwing some good-natured jabs out there hardly qualifies as obsession. Starting threads about another team's players offseason comments is very different. If you can link me any thread I've started on the Browns that was non-Steelers related and meant strictly to bash the Browns and/or their players, let's have it. Otherwise, you might to take that smiley back and shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.There are as many Steeler fans in Brown's threads as there are Browns fans in them and all of you claim to know more about the Browns than we do. If you would like me to highlight a few of your own posts in Brown's threads please let me know Evilgrin.
AhrnCityPahnder
Yinz-o-riffic
Ohhhhhh! So it's all fine and dandy because you didn't start your own thread. I stand corrected. The fact that you guys post in our threads as much as we do and never have one objective thing to say doesn't make you obsessed because you didn't start the thread! And your probably whining about all those Browns, Bengals and Ravens haters just to demonstrate what whining really is. After all what Big Ben said was minor in comparison.Commenting on the Browns as a division rival and throwing some good-natured jabs out there hardly qualifies as obsession. Starting threads about another team's players offseason comments is very different. If you can link me any thread I've started on the Browns that was non-Steelers related and meant strictly to bash the Browns and/or their players, let's have it. Otherwise, you might to take that smiley back and shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
Come on, you can't be this obtuse. I have very reasonably and rationally discussed many Browns-related issues. Sure, I throw jabs now and again, we're division rivals - especially when baited by the likes of BGP (obvious fisherman) and Bracie Smathers (once abrasive, but really seems to have found a posting style, and we discuss things very calmly and rationally these days.) Go back and look at my posts regarding the Browns QB situation - which is about all I've discussed in the past few months regarding Cleveland. Then, take a look at this obvious fishing trip and see if it's even remotely the same. I'll tell you what - when the day comes that I start threads saying Browns players are "whining" based on some innocuous non-story comment, then you can blast me.You'd think a fan of a team that has sucked as hard as the Browns have for as long as they have would be honored that Steeler fans even deign your team worthy of comment. They were such a non-factor for so long that you should take Steeler fans' participation in Browns threads as a compliment, regardless of what is said. It means they're relevant again. I know you have "little sister" syndrome as a Browns fan, but if I were you, I'd be quiet please and enjoy the fact that your team is remotely competitive again instead of taking up for people who start threads that are obvious fishing trips. All you've accomplished here is to align yourself with the likes of BGP and NorrisB. Congratulations on that.Ohhhhhh! So it's all fine and dandy because you didn't start your own thread. I stand corrected. The fact that you guys post in our threads as much as we do and never have one objective thing to say doesn't make you obsessed because you didn't start the thread! And your probably whining about all those Browns, Bengals and Ravens haters just to demonstrate what whining really is. After all what Big Ben said was minor in comparison.Commenting on the Browns as a division rival and throwing some good-natured jabs out there hardly qualifies as obsession. Starting threads about another team's players offseason comments is very different. If you can link me any thread I've started on the Browns that was non-Steelers related and meant strictly to bash the Browns and/or their players, let's have it. Otherwise, you might to take that smiley back and shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.There are as many Steeler fans in Brown's threads as there are Browns fans in them and all of you claim to know more about the Browns than we do. If you would like me to highlight a few of your own posts in Brown's threads please let me know Evilgrin.
chris1969
Footballguy
Evilgrin 72 said:Come on, you can't be this obtuse. I have very reasonably and rationally discussed many Browns-related issues. Sure, I throw jabs now and again, we're division rivals - especially when baited by the likes of BGP (obvious fisherman) and Bracie Smathers (once abrasive, but really seems to have found a posting style, and we discuss things very calmly and rationally these days.) Go back and look at my posts regarding the Browns QB situation - which is about all I've discussed in the past few months regarding Cleveland. Then, take a look at this obvious fishing trip and see if it's even remotely the same. I'll tell you what - when the day comes that I start threads saying Browns players are "whining" based on some innocuous non-story comment, then you can blast me.You'd think a fan of a team that has sucked as hard as the Browns have for as long as they have would be honored that Steeler fans even deign your team worthy of comment. They were such a non-factor for so long that you should take Steeler fans' participation in Browns threads as a compliment, regardless of what is said. It means they're relevant again. I know you have "little sister" syndrome as a Browns fan, but if I were you, I'd be quiet please and enjoy the fact that your team is remotely competitive again instead of taking up for people who start threads that are obvious fishing trips. All you've accomplished here is to align yourself with the likes of BGP and NorrisB. Congratulations on that.Ohhhhhh! So it's all fine and dandy because you didn't start your own thread. I stand corrected. The fact that you guys post in our threads as much as we do and never have one objective thing to say doesn't make you obsessed because you didn't start the thread! And your probably whining about all those Browns, Bengals and Ravens haters just to demonstrate what whining really is. After all what Big Ben said was minor in comparison.Commenting on the Browns as a division rival and throwing some good-natured jabs out there hardly qualifies as obsession. Starting threads about another team's players offseason comments is very different. If you can link me any thread I've started on the Browns that was non-Steelers related and meant strictly to bash the Browns and/or their players, let's have it. Otherwise, you might to take that smiley back and shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.There are as many Steeler fans in Brown's threads as there are Browns fans in them and all of you claim to know more about the Browns than we do. If you would like me to highlight a few of your own posts in Brown's threads please let me know Evilgrin.
still
We could care less that you grace your presence in our threads to give your unobjective opinion on our QB or anybody else on our team. Your on your own fishing trip just for posting in the thread, since you can't post anything objective. If you can highlight 1 positive thing you've posted in any Browns thread that didn't include a "but" statement you can post it here and prove me wrong. For my own objectivity you can scroll up to my first post in this thread, hereI posted that Ben's whining was a non-issue. That's being un-objective. Posting that DA is a mediocre QB because your a homer is not being objective. Even if it may or may not be true, no one in that thread takes it seriously because the only comments you ever post are negative ones. Look at the quote above and you should be able to squint through your own myopic view of the world to see how some people could care less about your opinions. Homerism mixed arrogance is what Steeler fans do best and you can expect a ton of kicking you while your down the next few years and rebuilding your o-line.
If you can't look at that above quote and see why you have no basis whatsoever of whining about anybody posting his opinion about any Steeler in any thread, then your simply entirely hopeless and it would be hopeless for me to continue this banter. The unfortunate thing is that even if you did see the light, there are at least a half dozen carbon copies of you out there in FBG Steelerville that won't. Stop whining when the same thing gets done to you that you do every day.
I swear! there should be a 12 step program for arrogant Steeler fans.
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Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
still
We could care less that you grace your presence in our threads to give your unobjective opinion on our QB or anybody else on our team. Your on your own fishing trip just for posting in the thread, since you can't post anything objective. If you can highlight 1 positive thing you've posted in any Browns thread that didn't include a "but" statement you can post it here and prove me wrong.
There you go, I sat here illustrating how much talent and Pro-Bowl caliber players are on the Browns' roster. No buts. Now admit you're wrong.Also, if you take the time to go look at my posts on Anderson and the Browns, you'll see that when I'm not responding to stinky bait like this thread, there's quite a lot of objective discussion involved. If you want to deny that, I'll copy one of those posts here too.
Discussing Derek Anderson or Romeo Crennel hardly compares to starting this thread, which is a blatantly obvious fishing trip. The day I start a "Romeo Crennel eats ANOTHER 6-foot sub himself at lunchtime" thread, then you can accuse me of being Browns-obsessed. Threads like this just show the desperation of fans of the also-rans, and how they need to try to beat on the Steelers even after the season is over. Sorry we've gotten in your heads, but you have to accept it.
As far as whining goes, what are you talking about? I simply pointed out the obvious fishing here, YOU called me out individually and whined about the fact that I don't make pro-Browns posts. We're bitter rivals, sorry if I haven't made you feel all warm and fuzzy. I'll tip my cap to the Browns when they surpass the Steelers. It hasn't happened in recent memory, sorry about that. Ironic that you're posting these pot/kettle smileys then accuse me of whining, when clearly you're the one doing so.
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Ghost Rider
Footballguy
You could also be accused of being inaccurate since Crennel reportedly only eats 4-foot subs for lunch.
But seriously...
Considering how Hines Ward reacted to Roethlisberger's comments, I do not think it was originally as much of a non-story as you would have us believe, but Roethlisberger was on Rome Is Burning this past week and said that he and Ward talked, everything was clarified, and it is all good now with them.
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poopdawg
Footballguy
still
We could care less that you grace your presence in our threads to give your unobjective opinion on our QB or anybody else on our team. Your on your own fishing trip just for posting in the thread, since you can't post anything objective. If you can highlight 1 positive thing you've posted in any Browns thread that didn't include a "but" statement you can post it here and prove me wrong.There you go, I sat here illustrating how much talent and Pro-Bowl caliber players are on the Browns' roster. No buts. Now admit you're wrong.Also, if you take the time to go look at my posts on Anderson and the Browns, you'll see that when I'm not responding to stinky bait like this thread, there's quite a lot of objective discussion involved. If you want to deny that, I'll copy one of those posts here too.
Discussing Derek Anderson or Romeo Crennel hardly compares to starting this thread, which is a blatantly obvious fishing trip. The day I start a "Romeo Crennel eats ANOTHER 6-foot sub himself at lunchtime" thread, then you can accuse me of being Browns-obsessed. Threads like this just show the desperation of fans of the also-rans, and how they need to try to beat on the Steelers even after the season is over. Sorry we've gotten in your heads, but you have to accept it.
As far as whining goes, what are you talking about? I simply pointed out the obvious fishing here, YOU called me out individually and whined about the fact that I don't make pro-Browns posts. We're bitter rivals, sorry if I haven't made you feel all warm and fuzzy. I'll tip my cap to the Browns when they surpass the Steelers. It hasn't happened in recent memory, sorry about that. Ironic that you're posting these pot/kettle smileys then accuse me of whining, when clearly you're the one doing so.
I am a huge Braylon Edwards fan myself. Not only cuz he took me to the promised lane this year in fantasy 
but I like what he has done off the field as well. I think most Steeler fans on here (Evilgrin, Godsbrother, myself, etc.) for the most part can bring a non-homer type discussion to other threads with a little jawing here and there which is all in good fun. Me, I like the fact that the Browns are in contention now. It makes the season much more exciting.With that said, show me one thread that has been started by one of us that is a blatant rip on a rival player or team in order to incite what has happened in this thread......
chris1969
Footballguy
<--- That would be your "but" statement. You couldn't say the positive without the negative. Hey I'll give you credit though, that was enough positives to choke most Steeler fans. And not all of you are bad either. There are a few guys like Jeff and Godsbrother who are actually pretty objective. You just have more than your fair share of guys that that can't be. As far as not starting your own Browns bashing threads, I would prefer that. I can ignore those threads. It's much harder to ignore 50 idiot Steeler posts in the Official Browns thread. Hey I'm not upset, but I'm also not gonna let you get away with all the "mean Bengal, Browns, and Ravens fans are mean to us for no reason" stuff either. We all know the reason. I'm not even sure what team the guy that started this post is a fan of. Anyway I'm done with this post if you are. I do have some advice. If you went into a Browns thread and simply posted..."I have to admit, even though I hate the Browns..." (that last part keeps your fanhood in tact) then post something positive and STOPPED!Your credibility would greatly improve the next time you posted there.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
It wasn't a "but" statement. Bracie talked about how Crennel took a team devoid of Pro Bowl talent and guided them to a 10-6 record. I pointed out that they, in fact, have a lot of talent. It wasn't a backhanded compliment.And I already know the reason Bengal, Brown, and Raven fans hate the Steelers. I'm used to it, and I'm cool with it. However, I am going to call a spade a spade, and this thread was obvious fishing from a guy notorious for it. I answered it in the spirit in which it was started. Whether or not I typically post comments complimentary to the Browns doesn't change that, and comparing my Browns-related posts to this thread is flat out incorrect. Whether or not you feel I have credibility here is immaterial - look up any of those "who in the SP do you listen to?" threads and you'll see I have all the board cred I need. Finally, I would never have posted in a Browns thread to begin with were it not for your boy BGP. Sorry the rest of you have to suffer for his lack of foresight, I really am.
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