Bill Maher Vs Rashida Tlaib (1 Viewer)

[jon_mx]

Let's get to the crux of the matter and maybe ren can help me out here. "Apartheid," per BDS, really is a clever activist description of the Israel/Palestine conflict. For a one state solution, one question: How would their First Amendment work?

Given they're also supporters of "right of return," how does that affect Israel as both a democracy and as a functioning state.

Here is the platform of BDS, culled from BDSmovement.net

What does BDS aim to achieve? Does it call for a one state or a two state solution?

The BDS movement aims to pressure Israel to respect international law by:

1. Ending its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands and dismantling the Wall
International law recognises the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, Gaza and the Syrian Golan Heights as occupied by Israel.

2. Recognizing the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality.

3. Respecting, protecting and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN resolution 194.

These are three basic rights without which the Palestinian people cannot exercise its inalienable right to self-determination.

The BDS movement does not advocate for a particular solution to the conflict and does not call for either a “one state solution” or a “two state solution”. Instead, BDS focuses on the realization of basic rights and the implementation of international law.

It is what BDS is not saying that is troubling.  There is not balance suggesting Israel has any right to any terroritory.  In fact, if you listen to their spokesperson, it is clear Jews have no place in the region.

----------

In an interview, Omar Barghouti, a top B.D.S. spokesman, called the Israeli laws racist and exclusionary. A democratic state could still provide asylum for Jewish refugees, showing “some sensitivity to the Jewish experience,” he said, “but it cannot be a racist law that says only Jews benefit.” Asked if that means Jews cannot have their own state, he said, “Not in Palestine.”

----------

Present day Israel is what most Arabs consider Pasestine.  

 

[The General]

Didn't he once retweet an image of the CNN logo inside crosshairs?

Perhaps. I don’t remember if he did. 

It does seem there are very few things that people chose to be critical of that he hasn’t done worse

 

[Amused to Death]

Perhaps. I don’t remember if he did. 

It does seem there are very few things that people chose to be critical of that he hasn’t done worse

Here it is.

U.S. president tweets video of him wrestling WWE chairman Vince McMahon with a CNN logo superimposed on McMahon's face

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Well aside from praising violence against a reporter ("Anyone who can body slam is my type!"), Trump himself has called for several boycotts, including the NFL, AT&T, CNN.

In addition, Trump regularly targets private firms in language similar to "Nice business you have there -- It would be a shame if something happened to it."  When that kind of thing comes for the President of the United States, there's really no way to interpret it other than as an obvious attempt to intimidate.

 

[Da Guru]

Tlaib won by about 2% over a black woman who took over for long time Congressman John Conyers had to step down following allegations of sexual harassment. It was a big change for the district as I believe Conyers held that spot for 50 years (though there was some redistricting along the way). The district is made up of a sliver of Detroit and several neighboring suburbs. It is as blue as they come- haven't had a Republican Rep since the 40s. However, it is not particularly Arab or Muslim. Dearborn is not part of the district.

I would say the district has 3 groups:

25% working class blue collar whites, the old union block. These people are not sympathetic to Palestine or anything remotely radical

55% working class blue collar blacks, very traditional, socially conservative and religious. I don't think they are sympathetic to Palestine or any radical foreign policy. 

10% upper middle middle class Arabs, the most expensive homes in the district belong in the area with the highest density of Arabs/Muslims and they are likely very sympathetic with Tlaib and Palestine, however Tlaib has taken some heat from them for not being Muslim enough 

10% Hodge podge of Hispanic, poor and some upper middle class white collar white voters who likely have opinions all over the place 

I guess my grand point was I doubt many of her constituents agree with her on a lot of this stuff. 

Tlaib has a good chance of being ousted next election.  Tlaib was not taken seriously as a candidate as the Conyers people thought their replacement was a lock.  Look for a much stronger fight to Tlaib next time.

Whoever wins the primary next time will run unopposed again.

 

[[scooter]]

He got himself in trouble with the squad

This is like saying Alex Jones got himself in trouble with Mitch McConnell.

Maher lives on his own political island and answers to nobody.

 

[Encumbrance]

It is what BDS is not saying that is troubling.  There is not balance suggesting Israel has any right to any terroritory.  In fact, if you listen to their spokesperson, it is clear Jews have no place in the region.

----------

In an interview, Omar Barghouti, a top B.D.S. spokesman, called the Israeli laws racist and exclusionary. A democratic state could still provide asylum for Jewish refugees, showing “some sensitivity to the Jewish experience,” he said, “but it cannot be a racist law that says only Jews benefit.” Asked if that means Jews cannot have their own state, he said, “Not in Palestine.”

----------

Present day Israel is what most Arabs consider Pasestine.  

Exactly.

 

[jon_mx]

In addition, Trump regularly targets private firms in language similar to "Nice business you have there -- It would be a shame if something happened to it."  When that kind of thing comes for the President of the United States, there's really no way to interpret it other than as an obvious attempt to intimidate.

I was only making the point about Trump's criticism of the media.  I am not trying to defend every stupid thing he does.  Just asking people to be consistant in their criticism and understand how when you go too far you end up putting yourself in hypocritical positions later down the road.

 

[Amused to Death]

I was only making the point about Trump's criticism of the media.

Well I've given you 2 examples of Trump exhibiting or condoning violence against the media.

 

[jon_mx]

Well I've given you 2 examples of Trump exhibiting or condoning violence against the media.

Which would go beyond simply criticising them.    

 

[Amused to Death]

Which would go beyond simply criticising them.    

Well he criticizes, calls them the enemy, and condones violence against them. Kinda worse than calling for a boycott.

 

[sho nuff]

I was only making the point about Trump's criticism of the media.  I am not trying to defend every stupid thing he does.  Just asking people to be consistant in their criticism and understand how when you go too far you end up putting yourself in hypocritical positions later down the road.

When another President attacks the media as Trump has I will be as critical.  Tlaib taking on Bill Maher is not close to the level.

 

[John Blutarsky]

When another President attacks the media as Trump has I will be as critical.  Tlaib taking on Bill Maher is not close to the level.

When Obama Went to War on Fox News

https://www.newsweek.com/when-obama-went-war-fox-news-632424

 

[jon_mx]

Well he criticizes, calls them the enemy, and condones violence against them. Kinda worse than calling for a boycott.

Trump gets attacked for simply criticizing the media.  If the criticism of Trump was limited to when he was calling for boycotts and violence, that would be more consistant.  

 

[TobiasFunke]

It is what BDS is not saying that is troubling.  There is not balance suggesting Israel has any right to any terroritory.  In fact, if you listen to their spokesperson, it is clear Jews have no place in the region.

----------

In an interview, Omar Barghouti, a top B.D.S. spokesman, called the Israeli laws racist and exclusionary. A democratic state could still provide asylum for Jewish refugees, showing “some sensitivity to the Jewish experience,” he said, “but it cannot be a racist law that says only Jews benefit.” Asked if that means Jews cannot have their own state, he said, “Not in Palestine.”

----------

Present day Israel is what most Arabs consider Pasestine.  

This is a dishonest representation of both the quote and the movement. There is a MASSIVE gulf between "we don't think Jews should have their own state" and "we don't think there should be Jews in the region." At no point in that article is there a suggestion that Israel be disbanded and Jews be deported or made subservient to Arab/Muslim/Palestinian interests.

As a broader matter, this whole shtick where conservatives feign interest in fighting anti-Semitism when it serves a narrow political purpose, and then turn around and ignore, amplify and even occasionally embrace white nationalism, is downright nauseating. Especially when you consider that the vast majority of American Jews are left of center (example- Jews are more likely than Christians to say that Trump favors Israel too much). We are not your shields. Please read this and this. TIA.

Finally, Bill Maher sucks. He's a grotesque misogynist, a bigot and a bully whose entire shtick involves punching down and/or ####-stirring so he can play the victim. He should be "boycotted" on general principle, in the same sense that I "boycott" Pizza Hut and Two and a Half Men reruns.

 

[jon_mx]

When another President attacks the media as Trump has I will be as critical.  Tlaib taking on Bill Maher is not close to the level.

“With the decision to label a Fox News television reporter a possible ‘co-conspirator’ in a criminal investigation of a news leak, the Obama administration has moved beyond protecting government secrets to threatening fundamental freedoms of the press to gather news,” the New York Times editorial board wrote.

The Obama administration had a long history of trying to 'freeze out' Fox News and called them destructive, yellow journalism, and not legitimate.  

 

[sho nuff]

“With the decision to label a Fox News television reporter a possible ‘co-conspirator’ in a criminal investigation of a news leak, the Obama administration has moved beyond protecting government secrets to threatening fundamental freedoms of the press to gather news,” the New York Times editorial board wrote.

The Obama administration had a long history of trying to 'freeze out' Fox News and called them destructive, yellow journalism, and not legitimate.  

  opinion piece from when a leaker was a possibly investigated...and not actually freezing them out to Trumps daily attacks.  Going to have to come stronger than that.  And even so I dont support Obama doing so.

 

[identikit]

  opinion piece from when a leaker was a possibly investigated...and not actually freezing them out to Trumps daily attacks.  Going to have to come stronger than that.  And even so I dont Obama doing so.

 

[John Blutarsky]

  opinion piece from when a leaker was a possibly investigated...and not actually freezing them out to Trumps daily attacks.  Going to have to come stronger than that.  And even so I dont Obama doing so.

Opinion piece? Good Lord

 

[jon_mx]

This is a dishonest representation of both the quote and the movement. There is a MASSIVE gulf between "we don't think Jews should have their own state" and "we don't think there should be Jews in the region." At no point in that article is there a suggestion that Israel be disbanded and Jews be deported or made subservient to Arab/Muslim/Palestinian interests.

As a broader matter, this whole shtick where conservatives feign interest in fighting anti-Semitism when it serves a narrow political purpose, and then turn around and ignore, amplify and even occasionally embrace white nationalism, is downright nauseating. Especially when you consider that the vast majority of American Jews are left of center (example- Jews are more likely than Christians to say that Trump favors Israel too much). We are not your shields. Please read this and this. TIA.

Finally, Bill Maher sucks. He's a grotesque misogynist, a bigot and a bully whose entire shtick involves punching down and/or ####-stirring so he can play the victim. He should be "boycotted" on general principle, in the same sense that I "boycott" Pizza Hut and Two and a Half Men reruns.

Who is being dishonest?  I said Israel.  I said nothing about Jews being deported.    Although there is a history of deportation of Jews in Arab countries. 

“This book is the story of a tragedy,” he writes in a special introduction to the Hebrew edition, “of the uprooting of hundreds of thousands of Mizrahi Jews, who were torn cruelly from their homes and homelands. Whole communities of Jews, who had always resided in the heart of the Arab-Muslim world, underwent expulsion, persecution and malicious liquidations Nevertheless, this drama remains unknown and it has been denied for a lengthy period.”

 

[jon_mx]

As a broader matter, this whole shtick where conservatives feign interest in fighting anti-Semitism when it serves a narrow political purpose, and then turn around and ignore, amplify and even occasionally embrace white nationalism, is downright nauseating. Especially when you consider that the vast majority of American Jews are left of center (example- Jews are more likely than Christians to say that Trump favors Israel too much). We are not your shields. Please read this and this. TIA.

 If this forum condones accusing other posters of 'embrace(ing) white nationalism'.........this crap goes on way too much

 

[TobiasFunke]

Who is being dishonest?  I said Israel.  I said nothing about Jews being deported.    Although there is a history of deportation of Jews in Arab countries. 

“This book is the story of a tragedy,” he writes in a special introduction to the Hebrew edition, “of the uprooting of hundreds of thousands of Mizrahi Jews, who were torn cruelly from their homes and homelands. Whole communities of Jews, who had always resided in the heart of the Arab-Muslim world, underwent expulsion, persecution and malicious liquidations Nevertheless, this drama remains unknown and it has been denied for a lengthy period.”

You claimed that a BDS spokesperson made it clear that "Jews have no place in the region."  Where is this suggested? 

Before you answer please remember that "Jews" and "Israel" are not synonymous, and that for many American Jews it's kind of offensive to suggest that they are. Here's a passage from one of the two articles I asked people to read explaining this:
 

Other Republicans took their cues from their president. Among them was Steve Daines, senator from Montana, who wrote: “Montanans are sick and tired of listening to anti-American, anti-Semite, radical Democrats trash our country and our ideals. This is America. We’re the greatest country in the world. I stand with @realdonaldtrump.”

According to the Jewish Virtual Library, the Jewish population of Montana stands at a scant 1,395. Daines has never made mention on his Twitter account of the anti-Semitic people and events in his home state—including Richard Spencer, whose hometown is Whitefish, Montana, nor Andrew Anglin, who released a troll storm so vile on a Jewish woman living in Whitefish that a court awarded her $14 million in damages this week. Daines declined to tweet out a statement of solidarity after a white nationalist gunned down eleven Jews in a synagogue in Pittsburgh; Daines was silent after another white nationalist attack on a synagogue in Poway, just outside San Diego, earlier this year. But when an issue was made of the President’s naked racism, Daines rode up with a cargo of Jews—imaginary Jews, silent Jews, the easiest kind of Jews to employ—to defend him. Daines isn’t the only example of right-wing politicians who wish to wield anti-Semitism as a convenient cudgel against their political enemies, with scant if any evidence. But Montana’s vanishingly small Jewish population makes it particularly clear that this strategy has little to do with flesh-and-blood Jews at all.

If it did, why would Israel return again and again to the fore? There are millions of Jews living in this country, who have known no other home than America, many of whom have strong objections to racism–and who vote, in a supermajority, for the Democratic Party. Jews and Israel are not synonymous; nor is support for Palestine synonymous with anti-Semitism; nor is questioning the orthodoxy of the Republican party, which the majority of us do with relish, an insult to Jewry.

It’s not a surprise, though, that the Republican establishment makes public statements about its superglued-to-Netanyahu foreign policy as if it inoculates them against anti-Semitism. Nor is this the first time Trump has conflated American Jews with Israel. At a White House Hanukkah party, Trump told a gathering of American Jews that Israel was “your country.” More strikingly, when blood ran on the streets of Pittsburgh after the pogrom at the Tree of Life Synagogue in 2018, Trump did not meet with community leaders of the Pittsburgh Jewish community, nor the family members of the dead, nor even the city’s mayor. He spoke with Ron Dermer, Israel’s ambassador to the United States. The city’s Jews led a massive protest against his visit. The message, though politely veiled, was as stark as his message to congresswomen of color: you may live here, but this is not your country. You are not from here; you are not of this country. If you don’t like it, leave.

 

[TobiasFunke]

FU....and report me.  If this forum condones accusing other posters of 'embrace(ing) white nationalism'.........

I wasn't speaking about you specifically, I was referring to a common tactic of the conservative movement in the Trump era more broadly (which is why I prefaced the statement with the phrase "as a broader matter"). Again, the two articles I linked to make the focus or my (and many other American Jews') frustration on this point abundantly clear. 

I don't report anyone and I'm not gonna start now, but maybe next time take a glance at the stuff someone politely asked you to read before you curse them out? 

 

[jon_mx]

You claimed that a BDS spokesperson made it clear that "Jews have no place in the region."  Where is this suggested? 

Before you answer please remember that "Jews" and "Israel" are not synonymous, and that for many American Jews it's kind of offensive to suggest that they are. Here's a passage from one of the two articles I asked people to read explaining this:
 

'Not in Plalestine' when asked about Israel.  I guess the appropriate term is a 'dog whistle' because we know darn well where it will lead.  

 

[jon_mx]

I wasn't speaking about you specifically, I was referring to a common tactic of the conservative movement in the Trump era more broadly (which is why I prefaced the statement with the phrase "as a broader matter"). Again, the two articles I linked to make the focus or my (and many other American Jews') frustration on this point abundantly clear. 

I don't report anyone and I'm not gonna start now, but maybe next time take a glance at the stuff someone politely asked you to read before you curse them out? 

Your comment was addressed at me and you certainly did not exlude me.  Saying 'as a broader matter' very much implies I am in that group.  

 

[rockaction]

I wasn't speaking about you specifically, I was referring to a common tactic of the conservative movement in the Trump era more broadly (which is why I prefaced the statement with the phrase "as a broader matter"). Again, the two articles I linked to make the focus or my (and many other American Jews') frustration on this point abundantly clear. 

I don't report anyone and I'm not gonna start now, but maybe next time take a glance at the stuff someone politely asked you to read before you curse them out? 

This is horse####. The is where the liberal wing of the New New Left comes to scream "Not OUR Jews!"

 

[TobiasFunke]

'Not in Plalestine' when asked about Israel.  I guess the appropriate term is a 'dog whistle' because we know darn well where it will lead.  

For the umpteenth time: "Israel" and "Jews" are not synonyms.

Look, I'll put it this way:  If there's anyone out there who has spent more time railing against the BDS movement or Tlaib and Omar for their supposed anti-Semitism than they have spent railing against Fox News for keeping Lou Dobbs on the air after his rhetoric clearly inspired the Tree of Life massacre, or allowing Tucker Carlson to call the rising white supremacist movement in America a "hoax," you are not a friend of the Jews.  And it makes me incredibly angry when people like that use us for their own political or rhetorical purposes.

I don't know if you fall into that category. I don't know how you reacted to the Tree of Life massacre and Fox News' role in promoting the conspiracy theory that fueled it, for example. But people that do fall into that category are people I can't really say anything more about without getting banned.

 

[whoknew]

When Obama Went to War on Fox News

https://www.newsweek.com/when-obama-went-war-fox-news-632424

That entire article has one quote from Obama - Not so, Obama countered. "I've got one television station entirely devoted to attacking my administration."

It also talks about how David Axelrod met with Roger Ailes to try to smooth things over. 

That's all of the talk/action attributed to the Obama administration in that article. We are comparing that to Trump? 

 

[TobiasFunke]

This is horse####. The is where the liberal wing of the New New Left comes to scream "Not OUR Jews!"

I genuinely have no idea what the heck you're trying to say here. And I have a sneaking suspicion that is for the best.

 

[jonessed]

I wasn't speaking about you specifically, I was referring to a common tactic of the conservative movement in the Trump era more broadly (which is why I prefaced the statement with the phrase "as a broader matter"). Again, the two articles I linked to make the focus or my (and many other American Jews') frustration on this point abundantly clear. 

I don't report anyone and I'm not gonna start now, but maybe next time take a glance at the stuff someone politely asked you to read before you curse them out? 

I read it the and way jon_mx did.  The “broader matter” preface seemed to apply to the variety of means that “conservatives” use to “fight anti-semitism”.  The comment itself appears clearly directed at “conservatives” in general.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I read it the and way jon_mx did.  The “broader matter” preface seemed to apply to the variety of means that “conservatives” use to “fight anti-semitism”.  The comment itself appears clearly directed at “conservatives” in general.

OK, but even if you read it that way it wouldn't mean I accused jon of embracing white nationalism. He could have been one of the conservatives I described who "feign interest in fighting anti-Semitism when it serves a narrow political purpose, and then turn around and ignore ... white nationalism." 

Either way his attack on me was an irrational representation of what I said and totally uncalled for.

 

[jonessed]

“With the decision to label a Fox News television reporter a possible ‘co-conspirator’ in a criminal investigation of a news leak, the Obama administration has moved beyond protecting government secrets to threatening fundamental freedoms of the press to gather news,” the New York Times editorial board wrote.

The Obama administration had a long history of trying to 'freeze out' Fox News and called them destructive, yellow journalism, and not legitimate.  

Yeah, they were using the Espionage Act to define journalists as co-conspirators and grab their private email and phone records. Not good.

 

[John Blutarsky]

That entire article has one quote from Obama - Not so, Obama countered. "I've got one television station entirely devoted to attacking my administration."

It also talks about how David Axelrod met with Roger Ailes to try to smooth things over. 

That's all of the talk/action attributed to the Obama administration in that article. We are comparing that to Trump? 

https://townhall.com/columnists/calebparke/2017/01/12/did-mainstream-media-forget-how-obama-treated-fox-news-n2270406

 

[[scooter]]

That entire article has one quote from Obama - Not so, Obama countered. "I've got one television station entirely devoted to attacking my administration."

It also talks about how David Axelrod met with Roger Ailes to try to soothe things over. 

That's all of the talk/action attributed to the Obama administration in that article. We are comparing that to Trump? 

At the time, conservatives said Obama was wrong. I guess what they really meant to say was "It's not fair that Obama gets to criticize the media!"

Kinda like saying Obama was wrong to play all that golf, or kinda like saying the Clinton Foundation was corrupt, when what they really meant to say was "It's not fair that our side doesn't get to do it too!"

 

[rockaction]

I genuinely have no idea what the heck you're trying to say here. And I have a sneaking suspicion that is for the best.

No. Not really. It's not for the best. There's nothing anti-Semitic about it. Every time somebody gets mad about conservatism's new embrace of Israel as ally, you can predictably expect a sympathizer of the New New Left to be up in arms about it. One is that the history is lousy between conservatives and Israel. Two is that Jewish people tend, overwhelmingly to both vote Democrat and support Israel as a state. Third is that it's hardly altruistic to claim "You don't really like Jews. You just want their votes" when you're precisely concerned about losing a voting bloc, especially concerned what that means regards to war and Middle East policy.

Conservatives and Israel, and therefore voting Jews, are a natural alliance since Carter and The New New Left's embrace of Palestine as a "human rights" cause. Get used to it. 

 

[rockaction]

At the time, conservatives said Obama was wrong. I guess what they really meant to say was "It's not fair that Obama gets to criticize the media!"

Kinda like saying Obama was wrong to play all that golf, or kinda like saying the Clinton Foundation was corrupt, when what they really meant to say was "It's not fair that our side doesn't get to do it too!"

Trump is also wildly off base.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

No. Not really. It's not for the best. There's nothing anti-Semitic about it. Every time somebody gets mad about conservatism's new embrace of Israel as ally, you can predictably expect a sympathizer of the New New Left to be up in arms about it. One is that the history is lousy between conservatives and Israel. Two is that Jewish people tend, overwhelmingly to both vote Democrat and support Israel as a state. Third is that it's hardly altruistic to claim "You don't really like Jews. You just want their votes" when you're precisely concerned about losing a voting bloc, especially concerned what that means regards to war and Middle East policy.

Conservatives and Israel, and therefore voting Jews, are a natural alliance since Carter and The New New Left's embrace of Palestine as a "human rights" cause. Get used to it. 

In fairness, support for Israel has been a pretty strongly bipartisan position.  The BDS position (for lack of a better descriptor) has always been kind of fringe, and even now it's really just the territory of a small number of outliers like Tlaib and Omar.  They occupy a role in the Democratic party not unlike Pat Buchanan's role in the Republican party (also no friend of Israel).

 

[whoknew]

https://townhall.com/columnists/calebparke/2017/01/12/did-mainstream-media-forget-how-obama-treated-fox-news-n2270406

Thank you for sending. Again, these quotes aren't the same. Obama is complaining that they are falsely misrepresenting him or spreading misinformation. For example - 

“If you’ve talked to somebody who said, ‘Well, I don’t know, I was watching Fox News and they said this is horrible,’ you can say, ‘you know what? Don’t take my word for it! Go on the website.”

President Obama insisted ObamaCare is “working pretty well in the real world” despite it being a “fanged threat to freedom on Fox News” in a speech at Northwestern University.

President Obama reportedly toldlabor leaders in a private meeting that Fox News was partly responsible for him “losing white males” who tune into the network to “hear Obama is a Muslim 24/7.”

Trump calls the press the enemy of the people and rallies his people to body slam reporters.

 

[TobiasFunke]

No. Not really. It's not for the best. There's nothing anti-Semitic about it. Every time somebody gets mad about conservatism's new embrace of Israel as ally, you can predictably expect a sympathizer of the New New Left to be up in arms about it. One is that the history is lousy between conservatives and Israel. Two is that Jewish people tend, overwhelmingly to both vote Democrat and support Israel as a state. Third is that it's hardly altruistic to claim "You don't really like Jews. You just want their votes" when you're precisely concerned about losing a voting bloc, especially concerned what that means regards to war and Middle East policy.

Conservatives and Israel, and therefore voting Jews, are a natural alliance since Carter and The New New Left's embrace of Palestine as a "human rights" cause. Get used to it. 

Are you suggesting that the reason I'm calling out (obvious) hypocrisy in the conservative movement's "fight" against anti-Semitism is not because I'm concerned about white nationalists, but because I'm concerned about voting patterns?

Seriously?

Also, you should read the actual articles I linked and quoted. They make actual logical points. Like for example they clearly show Steve Daines' hypocrisy on anti-Semitism considering the lack of Jews in his state and his silence about Richard Spencer's Montana-headquartered movement.

If you wish to discuss those actual facts and arguments, I'm happy to do so. If you prefer a long-winded, empty rant about a made-up political faction as you attempt to lecture a Jew about anti-Semitism when my actual priority is actually just my kids not getting murdered at synagogue by people that the GOP and conservative media try to pretend don't exist, I'll pass.

 

[rockaction]

In fairness, support for Israel has been a pretty strongly bipartisan position.  The BDS position (for lack of a better descriptor) has always been kind of fringe, and even now it's really just the territory of a small number of outliers like Tlaib and Omar.  They occupy a role in the Democratic party not unlike Pat Buchanan's role in the Republican party (also no friend of Israel).

I agree, but the tea leaves have been there since at least the early nineties. I watched it happen intellectually in D.C. The embrace of neo-conservatism on the right meant almost inherently that Israel was going to continue to be fierce ally and friend. It pissed the left off then, too, because policy not only dictated the potential move of a voting block, it was also backed by hawkinshness.

I responded "horse####" because Tobias constantly goes down this path of lightly charging one with anti-Semitism while never actually doing so.

 

[rockaction]

Are you suggesting that the reason I'm calling out (obvious) hypocrisy in the conservative movement's "fight" against anti-Semitism is not because I'm concerned about white nationalists, but because I'm concerned about voting patterns?

Seriously?

Also, you should read the actual articles I linked and quoted. They make actual logical points. Like for example they clearly show Steve Daines' hypocrisy on anti-Semitism considering the lack of Jews in his state and his silence about Richard Spencer's Montana-headquartered movement.

If you wish to discuss those actual facts and arguments, I'm happy to do so. If you prefer a long-winded, empty rant about a made-up political faction as you attempt to lecture a Jew about anti-Semitism when my actual priority is actually just my kids not getting murdered at synagogue by people that the GOP and conservative media try to pretend don't exist, I'll pass.

I'm taking a hard pass at this debate. This is horse####, and the worst of identity politics. 

 

[TobiasFunke]

I'm taking a hard pass at this debate. This is horse####, and the worst of identity politics. 

Sorry, but you don't get to "take a hard pass" and then tell me in the next breath that my concern about the rise of white nationalism and how it affects my family's safety and security is "horse####, and the worst of identity politics."

If you wanted to take a pass, you could have ended your post after the first sentence. If you want to lecture me about anti-Semitism and "identity politics," at least have the courage to acknowledge that's what you're doing and allow me to respond instead of insulting me with one foot out the door.

 

[John Blutarsky]

Thank you for sending. Again, these quotes aren't the same. Obama is complaining that they are falsely misrepresenting him or spreading misinformation. For example - 

“If you’ve talked to somebody who said, ‘Well, I don’t know, I was watching Fox News and they said this is horrible,’ you can say, ‘you know what? Don’t take my word for it! Go on the website.”

President Obama insisted ObamaCare is “working pretty well in the real world” despite it being a “fanged threat to freedom on Fox News” in a speech at Northwestern University.

President Obama reportedly toldlabor leaders in a private meeting that Fox News was partly responsible for him “losing white males” who tune into the network to “hear Obama is a Muslim 24/7.”

Trump calls the press the enemy of the people and rallies his people to body slam reporters.

https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/310796-obama-clinton-was-not-treated-fairly-by-press-in-wikileaks

 

[rockaction]

Sorry, but you don't get to "take a hard pass" and then tell me in the next breath that my concern about the rise of white nationalism and how it affects my family's safety and security is "horse####, and the worst of identity politics."

If you wanted to take a pass, you could have ended your post after the first sentence. If you want to lecture me about anti-Semitism and "identity politics," at least have the courage to acknowledge that's what you're doing and allow me to respond instead of insulting me with one foot out the door.

I don't like how over the past several years you've charged conservatives with hypocrisy and/or outright anti-Semitism about the Israel/Palestine conflict. I'm not into debating it with you because you're going to do exactly what you're tacitly doing here by talking about your family's safety and security from white nationalism. It personalizes the conflict like you inevitably do, and like I said, I'm taking a hard pass on it. YMMV. 

 

[John Blutarsky]

Sorry, but you don't get to "take a hard pass" and then tell me in the next breath that my concern about the rise of white nationalism and how it affects my family's safety and security is "horse####, and the worst of identity politics."

If you wanted to take a pass, you could have ended your post after the first sentence. If you want to lecture me about anti-Semitism and "identity politics," at least have the courage to acknowledge that's what you're doing and allow me to respond instead of insulting me with one foot out the door.

What? You think "white nationalism" is endangering your family? I suggest some drinks and chill out.

 

[The General]

This is a dishonest representation of both the quote and the movement. There is a MASSIVE gulf between "we don't think Jews should have their own state" and "we don't think there should be Jews in the region." At no point in that article is there a suggestion that Israel be disbanded and Jews be deported or made subservient to Arab/Muslim/Palestinian interests.

As a broader matter, this whole shtick where conservatives feign interest in fighting anti-Semitism when it serves a narrow political purpose, and then turn around and ignore, amplify and even occasionally embrace white nationalism, is downright nauseating. Especially when you consider that the vast majority of American Jews are left of center (example- Jews are more likely than Christians to say that Trump favors Israel too much). We are not your shields. Please read this and this. TIA.

Finally, Bill Maher sucks. He's a grotesque misogynist, a bigot and a bully whose entire shtick involves punching down and/or ####-stirring so he can play the victim. He should be "boycotted" on general principle, in the same sense that I "boycott" Pizza Hut and Two and a Half Men reruns.

Maher can be a doosh but I’ll take the show he produces over GQ articles everyday of the week and twice on Sunday

 

[TobiasFunke]

I don't like how over the past several years you've charged conservatives with hypocrisy and/or outright anti-Semitism about the Israel/Palestine conflict. I'm not into debating it with you because you're going to do exactly what you're tacitly doing here by talking about your family's safety and security from white nationalism. It personalizes the conflict like you inevitably do, and like I said, I'm taking a hard pass on it. YMMV. 

I haven't merely charged conservatives with hypocrisy and/or outright anti-Semitism about the conflict. I've proved it. It's well-established in the two articles Iinked and countless others. You can't explain why, for example, Steve Daines seems to be far more concerned about the alleged anti-Semitism of Omar and Tlaib than he is about the confirmed anti-Semitism of Richard Spencer whose movement appears to be headquartered in his state. You can't explain why the Trump administration is levying anti-Semitism charges on those members while preventing the FBI and DOJ from fighting the rise of white nationalism in America. You can't explain why Fox News airs segments levying similar accusations while continuing to push a conspiracy theory was clearly tied to the Tree of Life massacre.  You can't explain why the GOP has called for Ilhan Omar to resign but appears to have no problem with Steve King not only staying in the House but staying in their party as well.

You can't explain these things because the obvious explanation is that they're hypocritical opportunism at best, and for some reason you are unable to admit that obvious conclusion that is backed by countless examples. So instead you attack me with meaningless claims of "identity politics" on your way out the door.  Happy trails.

 

[rockaction]

I haven't merely "charged" conservatives" with hypocrisy and/or outright anti-Semitism about the conflict. I've proved it. It's well-established in the two articles Iinked and countless others. You can't explain why, for example, Steve Daines seems to be far more concerned about the alleged anti-Semitism of Omar and Tlaib than he is about the confirmed anti-Semitism of Richard Spencer whose movement appears to be headquartered in his state. You can't explain why the Trump administration levying anti-Semitism charges on those members while preventing the FBI and DOJ from fighting the rise of white nationalism in America. You can't explain why Fox News airs segments levying similar accusations while continuing to push a conspiracy theory was clearly tied to the Tree of Life massacre.  You can't explain why the GOP has called for Ilhan Omar to resign but appears to have no problem with Steve King not only staying in the House but staying in their party as well.

You can't explain these things because the obvious explanation is that they're hypocritical opportunism at best, and for some reason you are unable to admit that obvious conclusion that is backed by countless examples. So instead you attack me with meaningless claims of "identity politics" on your way out the door.  Happy trails.

Oh my. Take a break, Tobias. I'm not even reading your full post. I'm just not. You and I should be able to talk about this and you're personalizaing it, both for me and you, and now you're essentially charging a position I hold, or hold in common with people, with a nebulous hypocrisy and latent anti-Semitism.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Oh my. Take a break, Tobias. I'm not even reading your full post. I'm just not. You and I should be able to talk about this and you're personalizaing it, both for me and you, and now you're essentially charging a position I hold, or hold in common with people, who are supposedly guilty of hypocrisy and anti-Semitism.

You inserted yourself into a conversation I was having with jon and said:

This is horse####. The is where the liberal wing of the New New Left comes to scream "Not OUR Jews!"

And then in your next post you (wrongly) tried to tell me what was actually motivating my position and then told me that I was wrong about conservatives and Jews and I should "get used to it."

And then in your third post you repeated the "horse####" accusation and called what I said "the worst of identity politics."

And then your fourth post was entirely about me.

Come on, man. We've always gotten along well despite our differences and I'm proud of that. But I think it's pretty clear that you both initiated and aggravated our current sparring session. Even if I didn't have an obvious personal connection to this issue, you did more than enough to make it personal.

 

[Mister CIA]

Another thread down the drain.  I can't quite put my finger on what went wrong.