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**Bills at Chiefs** (-1, 48.5) 4:25 (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Ministry of Pain
- Start date
Jayded
Footballguy
The irony is while the officials have had a pretty poor year across many games, THIS is not the hill to die on.
Mahomes continuing the complaining during handshakes and after the game about an obvious penalty smacks of that NBA who gets away with everything finally getting called for a foul and screaming bloody murder.
Mahomes continuing the complaining during handshakes and after the game about an obvious penalty smacks of that NBA who gets away with everything finally getting called for a foul and screaming bloody murder.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
Not sure why they are yelling at the refs. Toney was lined up offsides. If anything yell at Toney.
Bottom line it was a penalty. Replays confirmed the call was correct. The ref threw the flag as soon as the ball was snapped.
CBS Sports Rules Analyst Gene Steratore said the penalty on Toney was more than earned. Steratore posted, “When officiating the line of scrimmage, general philosophy is not to be overly technical and split hairs over very minor infractions (such as a receiver’s hand slightly breaking the LOS). However, when an infraction is so egregious and obvious, a flag has to be thrown.
Kadarius Toney was blatantly lined up offside and in the neutral zone. You rarely see an offsides penalty on the offense, but that is not because this play in #BUFvsKC isn’t a foul. It is because a receiver rarely lines up offsides.”
Bottom line it was a penalty. Replays confirmed the call was correct. The ref threw the flag as soon as the ball was snapped.
CBS Sports Rules Analyst Gene Steratore said the penalty on Toney was more than earned. Steratore posted, “When officiating the line of scrimmage, general philosophy is not to be overly technical and split hairs over very minor infractions (such as a receiver’s hand slightly breaking the LOS). However, when an infraction is so egregious and obvious, a flag has to be thrown.
Kadarius Toney was blatantly lined up offside and in the neutral zone. You rarely see an offsides penalty on the offense, but that is not because this play in #BUFvsKC isn’t a foul. It is because a receiver rarely lines up offsides.”
I tend to think it's more the problem that none of the Chiefs starting WRs could start on another team.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
They have too much hubris, and it starts with Andy Reid. With their defense and as good as their running game has looked this year, they should be winning games like that, but Reid is like, "nope, we have Patrick Mahomes, so we will throw it all day." Never mind that their WRs are mostly garbage. Mahomes has the 2nd most pass attempts in the league. It reminds me of the TB Super Bowl where the Chiefs were missing their starting tackles and Reid still thought they could throw it 90 times and win. Don't get me wrong, Reid is an all-time great head coach, but his hubris gets the best of him at times, and I think right now is one of those times.
Can you elaborate more on how you're saying Andy Reid has too much hubris?
Are you saying Mahomes should attempt fewer passes?
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
He is throwing too many passes, yes. A team with a WR corps this poor should not have the 2nd most pass attempts, especially when their defense is as good as theirs has been this year (meaning they have not been in a bunch of shootouts or blowouts where the pass attempt total got blown up because of a million 4th Q attempts). It's easy to say, "We have Patrick Mahomes, we can throw it all day," but look at how that is working lately. The crazy thing is that their receiving corps is no worse than last year's (the rookie Rice is an upgrade over JuJu, but I think Kelce hasn't looked as all-world, probably due to the injury that he came back early from), and they won it all last year, so I get thinking they can just keeping doing the same thing. But it's not working like it did last year and it feels like adjustments need to be made.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I believe the Patriots would beg to differ. Especially since they signed one of the Chiefs receivers.
Thanks. We'll just disagree there.
I don't have any problem asking your team to throw a ton when the best player in the league is your QB.
They're at the top of the league in passes thrown per game but for 2023, they're at 37.9 per game. Same as last year when they won the Super Bowl. https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/pass-attempts-per-game
Capella
Footballguy
View from the moment the ball was snapped
ChiefD
Footballguy
This may explain why Mahomes and Reid were so mad.
Apparently this Cohen guy works for (or did work for) CBS. His LinkedIn profile says he works for them. Tracy Wolfson also re-tweeted that comment but both posts have now been deleted.
If this is the case and the referee told him he was OK and still threw the flag, then that's a good reason to be mad.
He was offsides to be sure, so there are no gripes from me about that. The Chiefs are just not that good this year and we live with those mistakes.
Apparently this Cohen guy works for (or did work for) CBS. His LinkedIn profile says he works for them. Tracy Wolfson also re-tweeted that comment but both posts have now been deleted.
If this is the case and the referee told him he was OK and still threw the flag, then that's a good reason to be mad.
He was offsides to be sure, so there are no gripes from me about that. The Chiefs are just not that good this year and we live with those mistakes.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
NE had so many WR injuries that they had to get 80 snaps from Tyquan Thornton, Jalen Reagor, and Ty Montgomery (16 combined receptions on the season). Yet somehow, they won this week.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Just because he looked toward the sideline doesn't mean a ref gave him his blessing and the all-systems-go / thumbs up. IMO, looking toward the ref because you didn't really know where to line up and if you were in the right spot is not the same as "that's where the ref said I needed to line up."
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
Can’t wait for the All-22 to come out. Multiple reporters yesterday said he never once looked towards the ref. Video will confirm one way or the other.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
Just to address the “Von Miller was offsides on the next play” commentary.
Seems pretty clear from that clip that he wasn’t.
Seems pretty clear from that clip that he wasn’t.
Thanks. What are the links for those reports?
Desert_Power
Footballguy
I know the job description at ESPN is to produce some of these bad faith takes, but come on:
Robert Griffin III
@RGIII
An Offsides call erased a one of the more creative impromptu plays we have ever seen. A lateral by Travis Kelce on the same day the man who gave us the Music City Miracle, Frank Wycheck, passed away. Instead of that memory, we are left with more officiating inconsistencies.
Andy Reid himself said it is customary for a warning to be given in situations like Kadarius Toney’s before a flag is thrown. It’s never been required, but it is the standard. Was Toney offsides? By rule, he was. Should the flag have been thrown without the standard warning? No.
Robert Griffin III
@RGIII
An Offsides call erased a one of the more creative impromptu plays we have ever seen. A lateral by Travis Kelce on the same day the man who gave us the Music City Miracle, Frank Wycheck, passed away. Instead of that memory, we are left with more officiating inconsistencies.
Andy Reid himself said it is customary for a warning to be given in situations like Kadarius Toney’s before a flag is thrown. It’s never been required, but it is the standard. Was Toney offsides? By rule, he was. Should the flag have been thrown without the standard warning? No.
Brunell4MVP
Footballguy
I like Mahomes but this was a bad look. No matter what he’s complaining about. I don’t mind the anger at something. Brady and other greats have done it too. Usually to their teammates. It’s the timing at the end of a game. And the WR was clearly offsides so what’s the official supposed to do if that’s the complaint. It’s not the refs job to confirm anything. Line up onside. It’s not rocket science. Yell at your teammate after.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Why this is even a topic of discussion is mind boggling to me. The common practice has been if receivers ask the refs for assistance, they will tell them to move forward or backward to have a legal formation if they aren't in the right spot. Early in the game, if a player is on or has a toe over the LOS, they may voluntarily point that out and give them a one-time warning. Toney wasn't a toe over the line. He was way over the line. It's not the ref's job to tell players where to lineup.
If a Bills player was that far offside and the play had a similar outcome in reverse . . . a tough interception, some broken tackles, and a lateral across the field for the go-ahead TD for Buffalo, I'm sure the Chiefs would be ok with allowing the play to stand because it was such a great play and it was the ref's responsibility to tell the defender that he was offsides.
What Reid / Mahomes / the Chiefs should have said is they need to tighten things up and stop making stupid mistakes, having multiple drops, and braindead penalties. Praise the Bills for playing a good game, and say you'll get 'em next time. Lobbying their fans and media types for support on this is silly and makes people like RGIII lose credibility. It was a clear-cut penalty. The outcome of the play should not determine if it was penalty or not. If the pass went incomplete, we would not be having this conversation. Not even a little bit.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
Here’s from Warren Sharp. He wasn’t there, so I guess take it with a grain of salt, though the video seems to support him as well.
The ref, Cheffers, also seems to indicate in his response last night that Toney never asked for alignment advice.
And interestingly enough, that Josh Cohen tweet is no longer on his timeline.
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
I dont have any problem being "that guy" but this entire ordeal screams millennial, "like heeeeeeey maaaaaaan", rules arent super important behavior.
Yes. Super interesting.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I don't really care if players are passionate or indifferent in the heat of the moment. But I do care if they try to take it out on the refs and throw them under the bus when they clearly made the right call.
IF PM was peeved that they may have won if they hadn't made a bonehead play, great. (BUF still would have gotten the ball back with a chance to win.) Mahomes had the chance to show his passion and emotion and say losing blows chunks. But at least own up to the fact the 2023 version of the team has issues with execution. If he said, "We need to play better. We're better than this. I'm going to get us all on the same page and playing like we know we can," then people would have looked at him completely differently than they do after this incident.
Maybe he wanted to take Toney behind the woodshed and beach slap him. That's who he should have been peeved at. I get that he didn't want to call him out by name, but the refs didn't cost them the game. They had 59 other minutes to play better . . . and certainly could have executed better on the non-TD.
From what I can tell, it's mostly about it being an unwritten rule thing.
Players and coaches get the warning. Mahomes said in 7 years, he's never had a flag for it.
It's like not calling pushing as pass interference on a Hail Mary play. There's no official rule that allows that play to be officiated outside of the rules, but everyone knows that's how it works.
When the rule is "It's just not called like that" things get weird.
Players and coaches get the warning. Mahomes said in 7 years, he's never had a flag for it.
It's like not calling pushing as pass interference on a Hail Mary play. There's no official rule that allows that play to be officiated outside of the rules, but everyone knows that's how it works.
When the rule is "It's just not called like that" things get weird.
Hot Diggity Dog
Footballguy
Surely there is a medium ground between throwing your helmet and complete disinterest. Office workers can convey anger without smashing up their office.
crushedspirit
Footballguy
There are a bunch of people out there waiting for anything bad from Mahomes, and will pounce at the first sign of a dent in the armor. It comes with the territory in sports, but kind of weird vs a guy who rarely shows emotion or lashes out at the refs, and has mostly responded with class throughout his career.
People seem to forget the numerous Brady tirades vs players, coaches, and refs on live tv. It happens even with the best of the best.
belljr
Footballguy
I can't speak for everyone else but I don't think throwing the helmet and being angry has anyone up in arms....
It was bitching to Allen during the post game handshake, and then the double down in the post game press conference
ETA: And I like Mahomes :shrugs:
Rashee Rice could. He's a rookie, but his PFF grade is 84.2. He passes the eye test for me, decent size, speed, good hands, field awareness. I think he'd be a #2 wr on several teams, a #3 on most teams. To your point, defenses are catching up and you need more than 1 good WR.
Runkle
Footballguy
The thing the fans hate most about the game of football is seeing a play and then having to look for flags. It's abundantly clear that the fans want plays that are exciting, stylish, or momentum-changing to be completely immune from all penalties. Plays should be judged by how cool they are, not by some stupid old book written a hundred years ago.
Desert_Power
Footballguy
Maybe. He's mostly had big calls go his way though. I'm not a Patrick Mahomes hater by any stretch (other Mahomes maybe), but this whole thing is just an extremely poor look. To continue to complain about this during the post-game shows a real lack of maturity.
Brunell4MVP
Footballguy
I will say the flags are out of control. But it's mostly on the players and their coaches. Don't line up offsides. Don't false start. Don't hold. Don't illegally go in motion. The refs do miss stuff. Particularly holding and PI. But the rest is mostly on the players. They aren't very disciplined.
I also question whether holding should be allowed. It's such a hit or miss call. PHI defenders were flopping like team Italy, Just allow it on both sides of the ball. within 5 yards of LOS
I also question whether holding should be allowed. It's such a hit or miss call. PHI defenders were flopping like team Italy, Just allow it on both sides of the ball. within 5 yards of LOS
Desert_Power
Footballguy
Chiefs cannot even manage to line up all 5 of their OL on the LOS.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Just asking is different than a ref responding. On that WAS play, Dyami Brown went in motion to that side of the field. He could have come to a stop and lined up on the LOS and it would have been a legal formation (or McLaurin could have gone in motion after Brown was set). McLaurin looked at the ref before all the players came set. Brown then leaves that side of the field and motions back to the other side of the field. Not the ref's job to know the offense's play call and where the players end up at the time the play is commenced.We talked about the Washington play from last year yet?
Where the WR did ask...
- YouTube
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Had the ref responded to McLaurin that he was not on the LOS and he moved up AND Brown came in and also lined up on the LOS and stayed there, then WAS would have had an illegal formation for having too many men on the LOS. Would the complaint then have been "not my fault . . . the ref had me move up to the LOS."
Same situation in the Chiefs game. Had the play call been different, Toney could have moved or gone in motion. The side judge only cares that: 1) there is a legal formation / offsides at the time the ball is snapped, 2) if two men are in motion at the same time, 3) that all the players are set for 1 second at the time the ball was snapped.
The Duff Man
Footballguy
Has anyone seen examples where players were that far offsides and it wasn’t called?
I don’t get the “it is never called” argument. Maybe because WRs learn in high school how to line up and check with the ref and rarely happens?
The PI call is the one to cry about, that is subjective. This is cut and dried.
I don’t get the “it is never called” argument. Maybe because WRs learn in high school how to line up and check with the ref and rarely happens?
The PI call is the one to cry about, that is subjective. This is cut and dried.
Brunell4MVP
Footballguy
I'm a Skins fan. It's McLaurin's job to know and do it right. It's called practice.Just asking is different than a ref responding. On that WAS play, Dyami Brown went in motion to that side of the field. He could have come to a stop and lined up on the LOS and it would have been a legal formation (or McLaurin could have gone in motion after Brown was set). McLaurin looked at the ref before all the players came set. Brown then leaves that side of the field and motions back to the other side of the field. Not the ref's job to know the offense's play call and where the players end up at the time the play is commenced.We talked about the Washington play from last year yet?
Where the WR did ask...
- YouTube
Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
Had the ref responded to McLaurin that he was not on the LOS and he moved up AND Brown came in and also lined up on the LOS and stayed there, then WAS would have had an illegal formation for having too many men on the LOS. Would the complaint then have been "not my fault . . . the ref had me move up to the LOS."
Same situation in the Chiefs game. Had the play call been different, Toney could have moved or gone in motion. The side judge only cares that: 1) there is a legal formation / offsides at the time the ball is snapped, 2) if two men are in motion at the same time, 3) that all the players are set for 1 second at the time the ball was snapped.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
- YouTube
Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
www.youtube.com
NFL fans feel they were robbed of what was perhaps one of the greatest plays in NFL History
-It reminded everyone of this play over 40 years ago.
efactor
Footballguy
No they don’t lol- YouTube
Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
NFL fans feel they were robbed of what was perhaps one of the greatest plays in NFL History
-It reminded everyone of this play over 40 years ago.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
Have you read the officiating crew’s response yet? Because it addresses this pretty well.
It has also been a bit more of a point of emphasis this year. In previous years it was called around 5 times a year. This year it has been called 12 times so far, including 2 yesterday. So their past experience on how it was enforced or how many times they’ve been flagged for it before is rather irrelevant.
@The Duff Man ’s point asking how often players like this far offsides and aren’t called for it seems like a pretty important question to answer.
efactor
Footballguy
Yeah, the flopping is getting out of hand. Seems like half the plays run have players whining for a penalty. As much as. I love football, it’s painful to watch at times. I will still watch of course, but it isn’t as enjoyable.
Yes. This morning before I posted what I wrote.
Yes. I think the lesson here is even with a Hall of Fame TE, you still need a decent WR.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Many do, if the flag isn't thrown, doubt anyone would have called them on it and we'd be discussing one of the greatest plays in NFL historyNo they don’t lol- YouTube
Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
NFL fans feel they were robbed of what was perhaps one of the greatest plays in NFL History
-It reminded everyone of this play over 40 years ago.
I don't see why that's so funny but it certainly is true for many
Desert_Power
Footballguy
Crazy how thorough those reviews are.
