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"Black Quarterback" ... hard to believe it ever mattered (1 Viewer)

bucksoh said:
There's never going to be another HOF black player in my lifetime (43 years old).  The only reason Warren Moon made it cause he spent his 1st five years in Canada learning how to pass.  History suggests that if he first came to the NFL he might have had a few good years then, then he would have flamed out just like every black QB does when there talent fades.  Until there is a NFL Europe or another way to get these QBs better there is never going to be another black QB in the HOF.  No black QB playing now has a chance cause they all rely on their talent.  Heck even the white QBs suck now a days, which is why the NFL better develop a farm system.
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Wow...

:lmao:

 
Ghost Rider said:
I had Cam on my fantasy team when he was a rookie, so I definitely did not forget. :P

That said, a terrific QB?  Let's get real.  I get that he is hard to judge like other QBs because his rushing numbers for a QB are so gaudy, but that doesn't erase the he has always, except for 2015, been an inconsistent QB, his YPA is rarely great (despite his big arm), his completion percentage stinks most of the time, and both his QBR and passer rating have never been anything special.  For as great as he was Monday night, would he anybody be surprised if he came out in week 12 and threw up a stinker?  I doubt it. That is what Cam Newton is: Mr Inconsistent.  When he's good, he's damn great, but when he's bad, he really stinks.  The greats do not have as many ups and downs as he does. 
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Oh, we're going with passer rating to determine how good he is?  Okay, for his career he is 85.5.

Here's the career passer rating for the following Hall of Fame QBs:

Troy Aikman - 81.6
Terry Bradshaw 70.9
Dan Fouts 80.2

And that's just to name 3.  

Who is the best WR Cam has played with?  Steve Smith who was not in his prime?  Greg Olsen?  He's not had Jerry Rice or Michael Irvin or any of the weapons Fouts got to play with.  

He was Rookie of the Year.  He was MVP.  If he wins a super bowl in his career, he's going to be considered for the HOF.  And yes, you HAVE TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT HIS RUSHING NUMBERS!!!  That's what makes him terrific.  You can't just ignore that.  It's a large reason why he's been so successful.  

- Most rushing TDs by a QB in history.  He's not even 30 years old!  He will put this record out of reach.
- No other QB in history has thrown for 30 TDs and rushed for 10 more.  Nobody. 

The list of his records and achievements is very long.  

He's also very durable, he hasn't missed many games.  And unlike Andrew Luck, Newton had surgery on his shoulder and made it back to start the season.  Guy is a gamer and he's tough.  He may be immature, he may be inconsistent, but he shows up to play.  He's also led his team to the playoffs in 3 of his 6 seasons and will probably get there again this year.  That's while playing in a conference with Drew Brees and Matt Ryan.  

And he may also get better as a passer.  It happens.  See Brady, Tom who evolved as he aged.  

 
Long Ball Larry said:
to be fair, I assume those are not era-adjusted.
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To be fair, I didn't bring up QBR at all.  I don't need to.  My eyes tell me Newton is terrific and a possible candidate for HOF if he wins a Super Bowl.  

Brett Favre career QBR:  86.  He's in the HOF.  
Cam Newton:  85.5  HE'S NOT TERRIFIC!!!!

Get out of here with that.

 
bucksoh said:
There's never going to be another HOF black player in my lifetime (43 years old).  The only reason Warren Moon made it cause he spent his 1st five years in Canada learning how to pass.  History suggests that if he first came to the NFL he might have had a few good years then, then he would have flamed out just like every black QB does when there talent fades.  Until there is a NFL Europe or another way to get these QBs better there is never going to be another black QB in the HOF.  No black QB playing now has a chance cause they all rely on their talent.  Heck even the white QBs suck now a days, which is why the NFL better develop a farm system.
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I am legitimately curious to hear your answer on this.  Would you say this exact same thing in person to a black person?  If not, why not?  If so, I'd like to hear why you don't think this would offend a person of color.  

Thanks

 
HOF chances:

Wilson: 50% (another Super Bowl would clinch it)
McNabb: 50% (4th in TD passes and 3rd in yards from 2000-2009, and all the other guys in the top-6 are getting in)
Newton: 30% (gotta get to another Super Bowl and/or put together some Pro Bowl seasons)
Watson: 10% (too early to tell)
Vick: 0% (had a chance but blew it)

 
General Malaise said:
- No other QB in history has thrown for 30 TDs and rushed for 10 more.  Nobody. 
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My least favorite way to measure players is cherry picking various statistical thresholds and claiming how certain things have never been done.  Did Cam do this, yes.  But, let's just look at someone who came just short of this and see how they compare.

Steve Young in '94 threw for 35 and ran for 7, apparently not as amazing as a season since he didn't hit your magical threshold.  However, his completion percentage was over 10 points higher (in an era of lower completion percentages), threw for more yards on fewer attempts, which obviously lead to higher YPA, YPG, and his rating was 13 points higher.  His 7 touchdowns were on half as many rushing attempts, and his YPC were just .1 lower than Cams.  Obviously he had the far superior season statistically, but you want to tout some arbitrary threshold to hold Cam's one anomaly of season above the rest.

 
Bull Dozier said:
My least favorite way to measure players is cherry picking various statistical thresholds and claiming how certain things have never been done.  Did Cam do this, yes.  But, let's just look at someone who came just short of this and see how they compare.

Steve Young in '94 threw for 35 and ran for 7, apparently not as amazing as a season since he didn't hit your magical threshold.  However, his completion percentage was over 10 points higher (in an era of lower completion percentages), threw for more yards on fewer attempts, which obviously lead to higher YPA, YPG, and his rating was 13 points higher.  His 7 touchdowns were on half as many rushing attempts, and his YPC were just .1 lower than Cams.  Obviously he had the far superior season statistically, but you want to tout some arbitrary threshold to hold Cam's one anomaly of season above the rest.
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You b!tch about cherry picking and then make a post cherry picking ONE thing I said in defense about Cam?  Okay....

Steve  Young is in the HOF.  He's a great QB.  One of the best that ever played the game.  He also had Jerry Rice to throw the ball to.  In 13 years, Young rushed for 4239 yards and amassed 43 rushing TDs.   Cam has 4002 yards and and 52 rushing TDs is 6.5 years.  

You know, it is okay to think Steve Young AND Cam Newton are both terrific. 

 
General Malaise said:
You b!tch about cherry picking and then make a post cherry picking ONE thing I said in defense about Cam?  Okay....

Steve  Young is in the HOF.  He's a great QB.  One of the best that ever played the game.  He also had Jerry Rice to throw the ball to.  In 13 years, Young rushed for 4239 yards and amassed 43 rushing TDs.   Cam has 4002 yards and and 52 rushing TDs is 6.5 years.  

You know, it is okay to think Steve Young AND Cam Newton are both terrific. 
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I didn't mean to cherry pick, and I can go on and on and debate almost every point you make in support of Cam (almost).  But, these arbitrary thresholds (ie, the triple double) drive me crazy, and that's why I jumped on it.  If you really want me to go off on Cam for other reasons I can, you just hit my button on this one.

 
Bull Dozier said:
I didn't mean to cherry pick, and I can go on and on and debate almost every point you make in support of Cam (almost).  But, these arbitrary thresholds (ie, the triple double) drive me crazy, and that's why I jumped on it.  If you really want me to go off on Cam for other reasons I can, you just hit my button on this one.
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Please do.  I'm happy to debate this with you.  Cam is a great QB.  Not sure what you have to refute that but I'm listening. 

 
General Malaise said:
Oh, we're going with passer rating to determine how good he is?  Okay, for his career he is 85.5.

Here's the career passer rating for the following Hall of Fame QBs:

Troy Aikman - 81.6
Terry Bradshaw 70.9
Dan Fouts 80.2

And that's just to name 3.  

Who is the best WR Cam has played with?  Steve Smith who was not in his prime?  Greg Olsen?  He's not had Jerry Rice or Michael Irvin or any of the weapons Fouts got to play with.  

He was Rookie of the Year.  He was MVP.  If he wins a super bowl in his career, he's going to be considered for the HOF.  And yes, you HAVE TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT HIS RUSHING NUMBERS!!!  That's what makes him terrific.  You can't just ignore that.  It's a large reason why he's been so successful.  

- Most rushing TDs by a QB in history.  He's not even 30 years old!  He will put this record out of reach.
- No other QB in history has thrown for 30 TDs and rushed for 10 more.  Nobody. 

The list of his records and achievements is very long.  

He's also very durable, he hasn't missed many games.  And unlike Andrew Luck, Newton had surgery on his shoulder and made it back to start the season.  Guy is a gamer and he's tough.  He may be immature, he may be inconsistent, but he shows up to play.  He's also led his team to the playoffs in 3 of his 6 seasons and will probably get there again this year.  That's while playing in a conference with Drew Brees and Matt Ryan.  

And he may also get better as a passer.  It happens.  See Brady, Tom who evolved as he aged.  
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You cannot compare stats across different eras.  Most WRs of the past are getting their stats obliterated by countless receivers nowadays.  The league is far more pass-happy now. 

Besides, Cam has only finished in the top 10 ONCE in passer rating, so yeah, that is not exactly a point in his favor.  22 QBs this season have a passer rating higher than 85.5 (Cam, ironically, is NOT one of them). 

I never said we do not take into account his rushing numbers.  Thank goodness for his rushing, because as a passer he has been mediocre for pretty much all of his career. 

Cam is tough, yet was afraid to go after a fumble at a critical moment in the Super Bowl.  That will go down as perhaps THE defining moment of his career if he never makes it back to the big game.  And I agree that he will get strong consideration if he does win a Super Bowl (shoot, Eli will probably make it for winning two, and he has never been great). 

Look, I am not saying Cam is not good.  He is a good QB (not great).  Great QBs are consistent, which he is not.  An inconsistent player is not great. 

 
bucksoh said:
There's never going to be another HOF black player in my lifetime (43 years old).  The only reason Warren Moon made it cause he spent his 1st five years in Canada learning how to pass.  History suggests that if he first came to the NFL he might have had a few good years then, then he would have flamed out just like every black QB does when there talent fades.  Until there is a NFL Europe or another way to get these QBs better there is never going to be another black QB in the HOF.  No black QB playing now has a chance cause they all rely on their talent.  Heck even the white QBs suck now a days, which is why the NFL better develop a farm system.
Click to expand...
Those idiots, relying on their talent  :rolleyes:

 
General Malaise said:
I am legitimately curious to hear your answer on this.  Would you say this exact same thing in person to a black person?  If not, why not?  If so, I'd like to hear why you don't think this would offend a person of color.  

Thanks
Click to expand...
Yes I have said it to a fellow black co worker.  He agreed nothing I said was offensive at least to me and him.  History tells me I'm right.  

 
bucksoh said:
There's never going to be another HOF black player in my lifetime (43 years old).  The only reason Warren Moon made it cause he spent his 1st five years in Canada learning how to pass.  History suggests that if he first came to the NFL he might have had a few good years then, then he would have flamed out just like every black QB does when there talent fades.  Until there is a NFL Europe or another way to get these QBs better there is never going to be another black QB in the HOF.  No black QB playing now has a chance cause they all rely on their talent.  Heck even the white QBs suck now a days, which is why the NFL better develop a farm system.
Click to expand...
You must have a bet with someone on whether you could get this thread to 20 pages

 
bucksoh said:
Yes I have said it to a fellow black co worker.  He agreed nothing I said was offensive at least to me and him.  History tells me I'm right.  
Click to expand...
You do know Russell Wilson is black, right?  He won one Super Bowl, damn near won another and is one of the best QBs in the NFL.  Are you forgetting that history?

 
General Malaise said:
You do know Russell Wilson is black, right?  He won one Super Bowl, damn near won another and is one of the best QBs in the NFL.  Are you forgetting that history?
Click to expand...
Russell Wilson so far relies on his athleticism.  When that is gone I  see a average passer.  Hope I'm wrong and he can actually develop into a pocket passer.   History suggests he won't though.

 
The black is a better athlete to begin with because he's been bred to be that way, because of his high thighs and big thighs that goes up into his back, and they can jump higher and run faster because of their bigger thighs and he's bred to be the better athlete because this goes back all the way to the Civil War when during the slave trade, the slave owner would breed his big black to his big woman so that he could have a big black kid.

 
bucksoh said:
Russell Wilson so far relies on his athleticism.  When that is gone I  see a average passer.  Hope I'm wrong and he can actually develop into a pocket passer.   History suggests he won't though.
Click to expand...
If your sports opinions are anything like your grammar, you will be wrong about several of these predictions.  As well, history is steeped in a racist mindset where coaches, GMs and owners didn't give black athletes a chance to play QB until relatively recently in the sport's history.  So your logic is more than a little faulty.  With more black athletes getting opportunities to play the position, you'll see more black QBs succeed in the NFL.  To say they all rely on their athleticism to succeed is an antiquated notion steeped in good old racist ideology.  But trolls are gonna troll.

 
General Malaise said:
Oh, we're going with passer rating to determine how good he is?  Okay, for his career he is 85.5.

Here's the career passer rating for the following Hall of Fame QBs:

Troy Aikman - 81.6
Terry Bradshaw 70.9
Dan Fouts 80.2

And that's just to name 3.  

Who is the best WR Cam has played with?  Steve Smith who was not in his prime?  Greg Olsen?  He's not had Jerry Rice or Michael Irvin or any of the weapons Fouts got to play with.  

He was Rookie of the Year.  He was MVP.  If he wins a super bowl in his career, he's going to be considered for the HOF.  And yes, you HAVE TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT HIS RUSHING NUMBERS!!!  That's what makes him terrific.  You can't just ignore that.  It's a large reason why he's been so successful.  

- Most rushing TDs by a QB in history.  He's not even 30 years old!  He will put this record out of reach.
- No other QB in history has thrown for 30 TDs and rushed for 10 more.  Nobody. 

The list of his records and achievements is very long.  

He's also very durable, he hasn't missed many games.  And unlike Andrew Luck, Newton had surgery on his shoulder and made it back to start the season.  Guy is a gamer and he's tough.  He may be immature, he may be inconsistent, but he shows up to play.  He's also led his team to the playoffs in 3 of his 6 seasons and will probably get there again this year.  That's while playing in a conference with Drew Brees and Matt Ryan.  

And he may also get better as a passer.  It happens.  See Brady, Tom who evolved as he aged.  
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You wanted more of a refutation of your arguments than my "cherry picking" so here you go.

Your rating argument is silly.  The passing game has changed so much, you can't compare rating across eras.  You want to tout Cam's career rating of 85.5 against some all time greats?  How about against his peers.  in 2016, an 85.5 rating would rank you in the low 20s amongst league leaders, right in front of Trevor Sieman's 84.6.  That sure is some elite company.

Troy Aikman's 81.6 would be more like the low teens as far as rankings for his day.  When they were winning the super bowls, he was top five in rating.  After his peak he was top half or top ten  Cam Newton has had a top ten rating exactly once so far.

I shouldn't really need to explain why it is silly to compare him to Terry Bradshaw and Dan Fouts and the way the game was played then, what with Bradshaw's 51.9 career completion percentage, or the year Fouts lead the league in completion percentage with 62.6 but if makes you feel better to make that comparison, go ahead.  These aren't cherry picked numbers, as you can look at the number across the board from the era to see it was a different game.

Surrounding talent?  Sometimes a WR can make a QB, but the good QBs can make WRs.  How many years has Brady played with a stud WR?  Go back and look at Brett Favre's career and see how many times he made a WR, who left to disappear into irrelevance.

He is durable for a QB, which is impressive given his running frequency.  That is the one thing I will concede, that if he remains durable, it could off set his more pedestrian passing numbers.  But, that would require one of two things for him to ever be considered a hall of famer.  Either he needs to continue to be mobile his entire career, or he needs to learn to be a much more consistent passer once his mobility fades.  I wouldn't bank on either happening, which means I wouldn't bet on him making the HOF.  

 
I didn't bring up QBR - that was another poster.  It's not easy to compare QBR without going into different eras as it takes 5 years minimum from retirement to get in, but I tried to find a close comparison in Brett Favre who retired not all that long ago.  Difference between the two was de minimis.  

Brady hasn't been absent talent.  Wes Welker wasn't a shabby WR as he put up good numbers before and after Brady.  Gronk is one of the best TEs to ever play the game and that serial killer was pretty decent too.  Oh, and he had a guy by the name of Randy Moss who was pretty good.  But yeah, Brady is perhaps the greatest QB to ever play the game.  First ballot HOF, no questions.  

Cam's running provides him with an element none of these pocket passers can bring to the table.  That shouldn't be dismissed when evaluating his overall body of work.  It's like saying if you take away Clayton Kershaw's curveball, he's just a pretty good pitcher.  Being mobile is why Cam continues to win in this league.  It's part of why he was drafted first overall.  In your final paragraph, you give Cam only two options to make the HOF without even mentioning the option of getting there by virtue of winning a Super Bowl, which, right or wrong, is a giant achievement in the eyes of the voters.  Terry Bradshaw and Troy Aikman don't even sniff the HOF without multiple victories.  If Cam wins one or two in his career, he's getting in.  

 
That people still debate this is just...

I'm not a liberal guy. It's just that the best guy for the job wins, and it's as simple as that. Anybody watching Russell Wilson or Cam Newton and still debating this isn't watching football, plain and simple. They're watching race and preconceptions. I hate this debate. It makes me a bit sick, honestly.  

My opinions within the debate: 

Cam isn't Hall worthy -- at all. 

Russ might be within a few years.  

 
General Malaise said:
I didn't bring up QBR - that was another poster.  It's not easy to compare QBR without going into different eras as it takes 5 years minimum from retirement to get in, but I tried to find a close comparison in Brett Favre who retired not all that long ago.  Difference between the two was de minimis.  

Brady hasn't been absent talent.  Wes Welker wasn't a shabby WR as he put up good numbers before and after Brady.  Gronk is one of the best TEs to ever play the game and that serial killer was pretty decent too.  Oh, and he had a guy by the name of Randy Moss who was pretty good.  But yeah, Brady is perhaps the greatest QB to ever play the game.  First ballot HOF, no questions.  

Cam's running provides him with an element none of these pocket passers can bring to the table.  That shouldn't be dismissed when evaluating his overall body of work.  It's like saying if you take away Clayton Kershaw's curveball, he's just a pretty good pitcher.  Being mobile is why Cam continues to win in this league.  It's part of why he was drafted first overall.  In your final paragraph, you give Cam only two options to make the HOF without even mentioning the option of getting there by virtue of winning a Super Bowl, which, right or wrong, is a giant achievement in the eyes of the voters.  Terry Bradshaw and Troy Aikman don't even sniff the HOF without multiple victories.  If Cam wins one or two in his career, he's getting in.  
Click to expand...
You have a better shot with this argument with Russel Wilson, who I think is on his way to being a first ballot HOFer.

Cam is more questionable as he is not great on a consistent basis.

 
General Malaise said:
If your sports opinions are anything like your grammar, you will be wrong about several of these predictions.  As well, history is steeped in a racist mindset where coaches, GMs and owners didn't give black athletes a chance to play QB until relatively recently in the sport's history.  So your logic is more than a little faulty.  With more black athletes getting opportunities to play the position, you'll see more black QBs succeed in the NFL.  To say they all rely on their athleticism to succeed is an antiquated notion steeped in good old racist ideology.  But trolls are gonna troll.
Click to expand...
LOL!  

 
General Malaise said:
I didn't bring up QBR - that was another poster.  It's not easy to compare QBR without going into different eras as it takes 5 years minimum from retirement to get in, but I tried to find a close comparison in Brett Favre who retired not all that long ago.  Difference between the two was de minimis.  

Brady hasn't been absent talent.  Wes Welker wasn't a shabby WR as he put up good numbers before and after Brady.  Gronk is one of the best TEs to ever play the game and that serial killer was pretty decent too.  Oh, and he had a guy by the name of Randy Moss who was pretty good.  But yeah, Brady is perhaps the greatest QB to ever play the game.  First ballot HOF, no questions.  

Cam's running provides him with an element none of these pocket passers can bring to the table.  That shouldn't be dismissed when evaluating his overall body of work.  It's like saying if you take away Clayton Kershaw's curveball, he's just a pretty good pitcher.  Being mobile is why Cam continues to win in this league.  It's part of why he was drafted first overall.  In your final paragraph, you give Cam only two options to make the HOF without even mentioning the option of getting there by virtue of winning a Super Bowl, which, right or wrong, is a giant achievement in the eyes of the voters.  Terry Bradshaw and Troy Aikman don't even sniff the HOF without multiple victories.  If Cam wins one or two in his career, he's getting in.  
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Totally agree.  Cam has to get multiple super bowl victories to get the point of of being able to be compared to those QBs who have less of a resume with their overall passing numbers but have proven to be winners (the Aikman and Bradshaws of the world).  But you're talking like either it is a foregone conclusion that will happen despite lack of evidence to support that assumption (only two of his first six seasons did he have a winning record), or that it doesn't matter.  I'm not sure which you're making.  I honestly think one my two scenarios are more likely to happen than Cam ever wins a super bowl, much less multiple super bowls, and I don't think either of my two scenarios are likely.

 
General Malaise said:
I am legitimately curious to hear your answer on this.  Would you say this exact same thing in person to a black person?  If not, why not?  If so, I'd like to hear why you don't think this would offend a person of color.  

Thanks
Click to expand...
Follow up question: White QBs don't rely on their talent?

 
@General Malaise

I appreciate the heavy Cam love, I really do - I'm in the Cam camp as much as anyone on this board, I genuinely like the dude... you can search my comments in reference to him, here's prob my most recent a few months back: 

https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/topic/761237-cam-newton-sexist-or-who-cares/?do=findComment&comment=20489852

I'll always defend him.

Anyways, he's a long ways off from HOF as of now, good start to his career, but he has a lot of work to do to even be in the conversation. 

Certainly above average since he got into the league, but not HOF - I do hope he gets to that level though.

 
fantasycurse42 said:
@General Malaise

I appreciate the heavy Cam love, I really do - I'm in the Cam camp as much as anyone on this board, I genuinely like the dude... you can search my comments in reference to him, here's prob my most recent a few months back: 

https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/topic/761237-cam-newton-sexist-or-who-cares/?do=findComment&comment=20489852

I'll always defend him.

Anyways, he's a long ways off from HOF as of now, good start to his career, but he has a lot of work to do to even be in the conversation. 

Certainly above average since he got into the league, but not HOF - I do hope he gets to that level though.
Click to expand...
He has to win a super bowl at the very least.  Failure to do that and he has little to no chance.  

 
I sat down low at the Lion-Carolina game and I felt Newton was the best QB talent I had seen second to Aaron Rodgers.  I have watched Manning and Brady and they just execute better than everyone.  Newton has the skills.

Unstoppable in every phase of the game from the QB position.  No QB is as physically gifted.  That is why it puzzles me that he has quite a few stinker type of games mixed in over the years..does not make sense with his ability.  I think people see his interviews and that he dresses like a clown and they don`t take him serious.

Newton has HOF talent..but will he have the HOF consistency needed to get in?

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Had to look it up because I couldn't remember a black quarterback ever starting for the Chiefs.

Chiefs: Warren Moon for 1 game in 2000, his last in the NFL.
BTW, this Sports Illustrated article claims that Shaun King was the first black quarterback to start for the Cardinals (in 2004), but Jeff Blake actually started for them in 2003.

 
Walking Boot said:
With Geno Smith taking the helm this Sunday, the Giants end the final holdout in starting a black QB
Click to expand...
Huge news!

That Funhouse character is a great follow, BTW. Probably the best follow on Twitter. He's also very handsome quite hung.

 
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