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Bob Ryan on "Spygate" (1 Viewer)

Mr. Sparkle

Footballguy
did not see it posted.

BOB RYAN

With Belichick, the cover-up is most revealing

By Bob Ryan, Globe Columnist | May 18, 2008

Here is what Bill Belichick has done: He has placed Patriots fans on the defensive for the rest of their lives.

He has been exposed as being monumentally disingenuous at best and utterly duplicitous at worst. There can no longer be any doubt that he engaged in a practice he knew was against the rules.

The big question we cannot answer is how important it all was, really. Did his illegal practice of taping opponents' defensive signals aid his team's chances of victory in certain games by 20 percent? Ten percent? Three percent? One-10th of 1 percent? Not at all? No one will ever know.

Right now, it doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter, because the only thing that does matter now is the image of the New England Patriots. The sports community now associates the Patriots with cheating. The three Super Bowl championships are, and forever will be, under suspicion. The thought will never go away.

Let Mike Martz, coach of the vanquished Rams in the 2002 Super Bowl, absolve the Patriots all he wants. A year from now, five years from now, 50 years from now, who will know or remember what Mike Martz said? The Patriots have been irrevocably stained. They will be, in the eyes of many, the reverse Black Sox. They will be the team that broke the rules. Their three Super Bowls will be regarded as ill-gotten gain.

And Bill Belichick still hasn't fessed up.

Bob Kraft should be livid.

How could anyone not feel sorry for Bob Kraft? He hired a man he believed to be a superior coach, and his judgment appeared to be vindicated with three Super Bowls in four years. Kraft had presided over a phenomenal transformation, assuming control of the team when it was a distant fourth in the affections of local professional sports fans and seeing it grow to a point where his team was a strong 1-A to the mighty Boston Red Sox.

He had inherited Bill Parcells, and he made a mistake by hiring Pete Carroll, but he hit the lottery by hiring the dour defensive genius, ignoring those who said there was no reason Belichick would be any more successful as a head coach in Foxborough than he'd been in Cleveland, where he had alienated players, media, and the entire constituency.

His was said to be a model organization, where the owner owned, the personnel people found the right players, and the dour defensive genius coached 'em right up to championships, or close to 'em.

And now?

And now he has to live with the reality that he presides over the most despised and reviled franchise in all of contemporary American sport, and all because the coach he trusted has betrayed him.

Remember that glorious evening in New Orleans when the Patriots captivated the nation by taking the field en masse rather than individually? Remember those clutch drives orchestrated by Tom Brady, those game-winning kicks by Adam Vinatieri, and all the other snapshot moments in the three Super Bowls?

Tainted, all of it.

Not here, of course. We in New England will make an attempt to separate fact from fiction and real life from fantasy. With so much at stake, we will think it all out, knowing intellectually that what Belichick did, in all likelihood, did not materially affect the biggest games. We know there was no taping of that infamous Rams 2002 walkthrough. We know that the issue in Super Bowl XXXVI was the way Martz went away from Marshall Faulk; that the issue in Super Bowl XXXVIII was, well, nothing, really; and the issue in Super Bowl XXXIX was Andy Reid's horrendous clock management.

We know all this. The problem now is that the rest of the world no longer cares. The rest of the world only knows that Bill Belichick thought he was above the law.

What we have here is a football version of Watergate.

Bill Belichick is Richard Nixon. Brilliant. Tormented. Paranoid. Controlling. Highly suspicious of the media.

Watergate was overkill. There was no need for it. Like, was Richard Nixon ever really in danger of losing the 1972 election to George McGovern? Spygate was likewise unnecessary. Belichick was, and is, a great football coach. Why did he not trust his own genius to win games honestly, especially after winning his first Super Bowl? Was he that obsessed with victory? Weren't all those hours staring at tapes enough? Did he think he had a divine right to victory? Clearly, something was churning inside that head.

He has turned out to be far more complex than we ever dreamed, hasn't he? Whoever would have believed Bill Belichick would have had such a tangled personal life? Who really knows this man?

Whatever his motivation, it wound up manifesting itself in colossal arrogance. For after being warned about continuing his illegal practice in a 2006 game at Green Bay, he did it again in, of all places, Giants Stadium the very first game in 2007. What kind of a statement was that? Was he saying "(naughty word) you" to Eric Mangini, a former ally who was now The Enemy?

Remember the ultimate moral of Watergate: The cover-up is worse than the crime.

Now we know that Bill Belichick covered up, and may still be covering up. Matt Walsh says he was told to prepare a cover story for his activities, even as Bill Belichick continues to insist that he had "misinterpreted" the rule in question. He alone of the 32 coaches was confused. Amazing. The commissioner didn't buy it, and neither should anyone else.

The cover-up is what matters now. Bill Belichick has yet to seek mercy from the National Court of Public Opinion. He has his story, and he's sticking to it. He's going to stonewall it, just as he stonewalls a routine injury inquiry. It's just his nature, apparently.

The sad truth is that he is the best coach. All reasonable people know that the 2007 season was 100 percent legitimate. No team in NFL history was ever under more scrutiny than the Patriots from Games 2 through 16 in the regular season, plus their entire postseason. Under this microscope, they won their first 18 games and came within 35 seconds of winning the last one, and it took two improbable plays on one down (an unprecedented Eli Manning escape and a phenomenal catch by David Tyree) to beat them.

The Patriots could easily win again next year. Bill Belichick could do it by choosing to play 10-on-11 all season long, just to show how competent he is, but it wouldn't matter. The damage has been done.

There is no way out. As long as Bill Belichick is the coach of the New England Patriots, America will despise this team. But a resignation or a dismissal would only lend legitimacy to the entire concept of wrongdoing.

This is not what Bob Kraft had in mind.

Bob Ryan is a Globe columnist. He can be reached at ryan@globe.com.

 
Pretty much. Belichick has taken the fun out of all those wins for the Pats fans. Other fans have their ultimate slap to deliver the Pats fans. The Pats fans will always have to deal with being labelled as cheaters. It is what it is. Belichick brought those championships to New England and took them away as well.

No matter how good the Patriots are, as long as Belichick and Brady are there, they'll always be called cheaters. Doesn't matter if they win again or three more times. Every fan of every other team in the league will always just dismiss them by saying "cheaters." They may win the games, but they'll never be champions. And rightly so. You reap what you sow.

 
Pretty much. Belichick has taken the fun out of all those wins for the Pats fans. Other fans have their ultimate slap to deliver the Pats fans. The Pats fans will always have to deal with being labelled as cheaters. It is what it is. Belichick brought those championships to New England and took them away as well.No matter how good the Patriots are, as long as Belichick and Brady are there, they'll always be called cheaters. Doesn't matter if they win again or three more times. Every fan of every other team in the league will always just dismiss them by saying "cheaters." They may win the games, but they'll never be champions. And rightly so. You reap what you sow.
I think you are falling into the same trap that Bob Ryan fell into.That is, Bob seems completely oblivious to the overwhelming support Belichick has received from the fan base, players and ownership. He feels compelled to make statements attempting to re-invent reality like "BB is Nixon", "BB is to blame for everything" and "fans, players and ownership should be outraged over the position BB has put them in".Personally, I'm sympathetic to the fans who gave BB a standing ovation in Week 2 last year.There is a strong desire on the part of some to want to envision patriots fans as "suffering through" the "Spygate Era", to which I say poppycock. BB is one of the greatest coaches ever and is almost single-handedly responsible for the success of the Patriots Dynasty. Hearing a minority of the fan base and the media cry into their ice cream while knowing that BB, unlike Nixon, was engaged in activity that was not unprecedented in the pantheon of borderline scouting techniques makes me laugh. BB gets my loyalty on a permanent basis. He is a winner and a genius. Others will say cheater. I say "good for you".
 
Let's be clear, this isn't on Brady. There is no way to know if individual players were involved in any fashion except to execute what they were coached. I know it is the matter of course to rally around the coach but if I were a Patriots player I'd be pissed that my coach dared to jeopardize all they accomplished. It taints their legacy too when in all likelihood they had nothing to do with it. :football:

 
The Pats were like 2-4 or 2-5 at one point before they won their 1st SB...not sure if the taping could have helped as much as people want to believe.

I hate the Pats, being a longlife Miami Dolphins fan, but I can't say they cheated to win any of their Super bowls...if you want to know what knowing the plays of the other team is going to do in a Super Bowl, just roll the tape of Tampa Bay and Oakland...if you know what the other team is going to do, you will blow them out. NE only won by 3 points in all 3 of their Super Bowls so I like to think they won because they were the better team or played better.

 
I love the hyperbole of sports columnists.

What others think of the Pats matters not to me. I was a fan when they were going 1-15, and clearly the doorstep of the league. I'm still a fan. Do I believe a guy with an agenda when he says it was covert? Or, do I believe the coach who points out the cameras are visible in game tapes? It is what it is. Do you gain an advantage with tapes? Marginal at best. What you do is level the field, because it was a widespread practice, acknowledged by many. The Pats are, however, on a pedestal, and this is the stick du jour to try and prod them off. No, they haven't won a SB in a few years. But, is there a team that has had more sustained success than this one in the recent past? Ever? I don't have to have them win to enjoy. Put a product out there that is enjoyable to watch. Winning is great, but a good product, where they're in contention every year, is better to me that rising up and winning one and fading into obscurity.

 
Pretty much. Belichick has taken the fun out of all those wins for the Pats fans. Other fans have their ultimate slap to deliver the Pats fans. The Pats fans will always have to deal with being labelled as cheaters. It is what it is. Belichick brought those championships to New England and took them away as well.No matter how good the Patriots are, as long as Belichick and Brady are there, they'll always be called cheaters. Doesn't matter if they win again or three more times. Every fan of every other team in the league will always just dismiss them by saying "cheaters." They may win the games, but they'll never be champions. And rightly so. You reap what you sow.
I think you are falling into the same trap that Bob Ryan fell into.That is, Bob seems completely oblivious to the overwhelming support Belichick has received from the fan base, players and ownership. He feels compelled to make statements attempting to re-invent reality like "BB is Nixon", "BB is to blame for everything" and "fans, players and ownership should be outraged over the position BB has put them in".Personally, I'm sympathetic to the fans who gave BB a standing ovation in Week 2 last year.There is a strong desire on the part of some to want to envision patriots fans as "suffering through" the "Spygate Era", to which I say poppycock. BB is one of the greatest coaches ever and is almost single-handedly responsible for the success of the Patriots Dynasty. Hearing a minority of the fan base and the media cry into their ice cream while knowing that BB, unlike Nixon, was engaged in activity that was not unprecedented in the pantheon of borderline scouting techniques makes me laugh. BB gets my loyalty on a permanent basis. He is a winner and a genius. Others will say cheater. I say "good for you".
Well of course the Pats fans are going to "support" him. He cheated on their behalf. See how easy it is to dismiss them. You say winner, the rest of the NFL fanbase says cheater. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. That you say he gets your loyalty no matter what speaks volumes about your objectivity.
 
The Pats were like 2-4 or 2-5 at one point before they won their 1st SB...not sure if the taping could have helped as much as people want to believe.

I hate the Pats, being a longlife Miami Dolphins fan, but I can't say they cheated to win any of their Super bowls...if you want to know what knowing the plays of the other team is going to do in a Super Bowl, just roll the tape of Tampa Bay and Oakland...if you know what the other team is going to do, you will blow them out. NE only won by 3 points in all 3 of their Super Bowls so I like to think they won because they were the better team or played better.
Of course you can't. But you can't say that they didn't cheat either. And therein lies the rub.
 
did not see it posted.

BOB RYAN

With Belichick, the cover-up is most revealing

By Bob Ryan, Globe Columnist | May 18, 2008

...

There is no way out. As long as Bill Belichick is the coach of the New England Patriots, America will despise this team. But a resignation or a dismissal would only lend legitimacy to the entire concept of wrongdoing.

...
I think there is 0% chance that the Pats dismiss Belichick. But the bolded statement makes no sense to me. Is there anyone who agrees with it who can explain Ryan's point to me?If BB were fired over this, which as I said won't happen, how would it be adding legitimacy to wrong doing? It's doing the exact opposite and holding him accountable and showing they aren't going to stand for it.

 
Pretty much. Belichick has taken the fun out of all those wins for the Pats fans. Other fans have their ultimate slap to deliver the Pats fans. The Pats fans will always have to deal with being labelled as cheaters. It is what it is. Belichick brought those championships to New England and took them away as well.No matter how good the Patriots are, as long as Belichick and Brady are there, they'll always be called cheaters. Doesn't matter if they win again or three more times. Every fan of every other team in the league will always just dismiss them by saying "cheaters." They may win the games, but they'll never be champions. And rightly so. You reap what you sow.
I think you are falling into the same trap that Bob Ryan fell into.That is, Bob seems completely oblivious to the overwhelming support Belichick has received from the fan base, players and ownership. He feels compelled to make statements attempting to re-invent reality like "BB is Nixon", "BB is to blame for everything" and "fans, players and ownership should be outraged over the position BB has put them in".Personally, I'm sympathetic to the fans who gave BB a standing ovation in Week 2 last year.There is a strong desire on the part of some to want to envision patriots fans as "suffering through" the "Spygate Era", to which I say poppycock. BB is one of the greatest coaches ever and is almost single-handedly responsible for the success of the Patriots Dynasty. Hearing a minority of the fan base and the media cry into their ice cream while knowing that BB, unlike Nixon, was engaged in activity that was not unprecedented in the pantheon of borderline scouting techniques makes me laugh. BB gets my loyalty on a permanent basis. He is a winner and a genius. Others will say cheater. I say "good for you".
Word up. :lmao:Bob Ryan doesn't speak for me. He's as big of an attention whore as Tomase, Borges and Shaunessey as far as I'm concerned.
 
It is what it is.
That's about it. Time to just move on.The NFL is doing it's best to quietly sweep this under the rug. No further action will be taken regardless the outcry.

So those calling for his head will never be satisfied.

Ardent fans will always dismiss and rationalize BB's actions knowing they have no intelligent response to the "cheater" accusations.

So BB supporters will never be satisfied.

Time to just move on.

 
Pretty much. Belichick has taken the fun out of all those wins for the Pats fans. Other fans have their ultimate slap to deliver the Pats fans. The Pats fans will always have to deal with being labelled as cheaters. It is what it is. Belichick brought those championships to New England and took them away as well.No matter how good the Patriots are, as long as Belichick and Brady are there, they'll always be called cheaters. Doesn't matter if they win again or three more times. Every fan of every other team in the league will always just dismiss them by saying "cheaters." They may win the games, but they'll never be champions. And rightly so. You reap what you sow.
I think you are falling into the same trap that Bob Ryan fell into.That is, Bob seems completely oblivious to the overwhelming support Belichick has received from the fan base, players and ownership. He feels compelled to make statements attempting to re-invent reality like "BB is Nixon", "BB is to blame for everything" and "fans, players and ownership should be outraged over the position BB has put them in".Personally, I'm sympathetic to the fans who gave BB a standing ovation in Week 2 last year.There is a strong desire on the part of some to want to envision patriots fans as "suffering through" the "Spygate Era", to which I say poppycock. BB is one of the greatest coaches ever and is almost single-handedly responsible for the success of the Patriots Dynasty. Hearing a minority of the fan base and the media cry into their ice cream while knowing that BB, unlike Nixon, was engaged in activity that was not unprecedented in the pantheon of borderline scouting techniques makes me laugh. BB gets my loyalty on a permanent basis. He is a winner and a genius. Others will say cheater. I say "good for you".
Nixon's fans still loved him too.That was NEVER in question.
 
I think THIS part is spot on:

Watergate was overkill. There was no need for it. Like, was Richard Nixon ever really in danger of losing the 1972 election to George McGovern? Spygate was likewise unnecessary. Belichick was, and is, a great football coach. Why did he not trust his own genius to win games honestly, especially after winning his first Super Bowl? Was he that obsessed with victory? Weren't all those hours staring at tapes enough? Did he think he had a divine right to victory? Clearly, something was churning inside that head.He has turned out to be far more complex than we ever dreamed, hasn't he? Whoever would have believed Bill Belichick would have had such a tangled personal life? Who really knows this man?
All good and fair points. As a Patriots fan, this is what really bugs me the most: I think the Pats would have won without the signal taping. The comparison to Nixon in this case is quite apt. And you know what? Many years down the road, I have a feeling that the public opinion on Belichick will be similar to Nixon, right down to the inevitable revisionist history from those who once bashed him.All that said, it's particularly interesting how Ryan is writing so stridently about Spygate when his bread and butter (the NBA) has a far more serious scandal of their own on their hands and Ryan is strangely silent about it...
 
This whole ordeal has been very polarizing. Pats fans want to pretend that nothing really happened. Pats haters want to make it out that taping the signals won the Pats 3 Super Bowls. There are a few people in the middle, but those voicing their opinions the most are on one side or the other.

We know the Pats broke the rules. While I don't believe BB's story that he misinterpreted the rules, I do believe him that he did not use what was taped on game day in the game being played at the time. That still doesn't excuse him of breaking the rules, but it at least should off set some of the chatter that it made a huge in game advantage (others will certainly disagree).

I also believe that while BB and the Pats bent and broke the rules, there were likely other teams trying to bend the rules (in many areas) as well and NE was the team that got caught. This does not excuse NE for breaking the rules, but IMO it's on par with some drivers driving 68 mph and not getting ticketed while other drivers going 72 will get ticketed. I also think that has another team got caught that hadn't won anything this would have been a footnote as opposed to a major news item.

Clearly the Pats must have thought they got an edge somewhere or they would not have been doing what they did for 7 years. But as has been coming out for awhile now, it seems like many teams have been trying to get a leg up in the signal stealing department. Again, the Pats got caught so they desrve to be penalized, but to think that 31 other teams were like Mother Theresa in all this is folly.

Yes, the Pats cheated. It will come down to individuals on what they make of the situation. A bit like cheating on your taxes. Some people take deductions they didn't really deserve, others take some and get audited. Does that make one side better or worse than the other?

As far as having a full-scale investigation on this, what's the point? As far as I know, the Patriots didn't break any laws. Is it really worth the time and energy to determine that yes, the Patriots did things they weren't supposed to and have admitted to doing? What's next, a full inquery into whether teenagers are having illicit relations with members of the opposite sex? If so, then what?

 
The Pats were like 2-4 or 2-5 at one point before they won their 1st SB...not sure if the taping could have helped as much as people want to believe.I hate the Pats, being a longlife Miami Dolphins fan, but I can't say they cheated to win any of their Super bowls...if you want to know what knowing the plays of the other team is going to do in a Super Bowl, just roll the tape of Tampa Bay and Oakland...if you know what the other team is going to do, you will blow them out. NE only won by 3 points in all 3 of their Super Bowls so I like to think they won because they were the better team or played better.
The advantage the Bucs had was MUCH greater than what the Pats had. Gruden knew the Raiders inside and out and I think they were still running his offense. What the Pats had definitely gave them an advantage, but probably only a little bit, which is all you need to win close games.
 
did not see it posted.

BOB RYAN

With Belichick, the cover-up is most revealing

By Bob Ryan, Globe Columnist | May 18, 2008

...

There is no way out. As long as Bill Belichick is the coach of the New England Patriots, America will despise this team. But a resignation or a dismissal would only lend legitimacy to the entire concept of wrongdoing.

...
I think there is 0% chance that the Pats dismiss Belichick. But the bolded statement makes no sense to me. Is there anyone who agrees with it who can explain Ryan's point to me?If BB were fired over this, which as I said won't happen, how would it be adding legitimacy to wrong doing? It's doing the exact opposite and holding him accountable and showing they aren't going to stand for it.
He's saying that if they fire BB or let him resign then they are confirming the allegations and how bad it was. This would go against what the league is doing, which is trying to make it go away by ignoring how bad it was and acting like there is nothing new to see here. At this point, if some more heads were to roll over this it would make the commissioner and the league look bad as they have already said they've dealt with it appropriately.
 
You can look at it that way.

OR you can look at it like every other team in the league probably does this to some degree or another, and the Patriots got caught.....Look, game planning is game planning and execution is execution. To win games in the NFL, you need to execute. I dont care if you knew what play was coming, in TecmoBowl, you could still throw a TD on the all out blitz remember? I think this stuff is all way too over blown. Did they cheat? Probably. Does every team do this? Most likely. Did they get caught? Yup. Are the Patriots still the best team in recent memory? Yes. Do they still have a hall of fame coach and a hall of fame QB? Absolutely.

 
Pretty much. Belichick has taken the fun out of all those wins for the Pats fans. Other fans have their ultimate slap to deliver the Pats fans. The Pats fans will always have to deal with being labelled as cheaters. It is what it is. Belichick brought those championships to New England and took them away as well.

No matter how good the Patriots are, as long as Belichick and Brady are there, they'll always be called cheaters. Doesn't matter if they win again or three more times. Every fan of every other team in the league will always just dismiss them by saying "cheaters." They may win the games, but they'll never be champions. And rightly so. You reap what you sow.
I think you are falling into the same trap that Bob Ryan fell into.That is, Bob seems completely oblivious to the overwhelming support Belichick has received from the fan base, players and ownership. He feels compelled to make statements attempting to re-invent reality like "BB is Nixon", "BB is to blame for everything" and "fans, players and ownership should be outraged over the position BB has put them in".

Personally, I'm sympathetic to the fans who gave BB a standing ovation in Week 2 last year.

There is a strong desire on the part of some to want to envision patriots fans as "suffering through" the "Spygate Era", to which I say poppycock. BB is one of the greatest coaches ever and is almost single-handedly responsible for the success of the Patriots Dynasty. Hearing a minority of the fan base and the media cry into their ice cream while knowing that BB, unlike Nixon, was engaged in activity that was not unprecedented in the pantheon of borderline scouting techniques makes me laugh.

BB gets my loyalty on a permanent basis. He is a winner and a genius.

Others will say cheater.

I say "good for you".
Well of course the Pats fans are going to "support" him. He cheated on their behalf. See how easy it is to dismiss them. You say winner, the rest of the NFL fanbase says cheater. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. That you say he gets your loyalty no matter what speaks volumes about your objectivity.
ORLY?
 
Pretty much. Belichick has taken the fun out of all those wins for the Pats fans. Other fans have their ultimate slap to deliver the Pats fans. The Pats fans will always have to deal with being labelled as cheaters. It is what it is. Belichick brought those championships to New England and took them away as well.

No matter how good the Patriots are, as long as Belichick and Brady are there, they'll always be called cheaters. Doesn't matter if they win again or three more times. Every fan of every other team in the league will always just dismiss them by saying "cheaters." They may win the games, but they'll never be champions. And rightly so. You reap what you sow.
I think you are falling into the same trap that Bob Ryan fell into.That is, Bob seems completely oblivious to the overwhelming support Belichick has received from the fan base, players and ownership. He feels compelled to make statements attempting to re-invent reality like "BB is Nixon", "BB is to blame for everything" and "fans, players and ownership should be outraged over the position BB has put them in".

Personally, I'm sympathetic to the fans who gave BB a standing ovation in Week 2 last year.

There is a strong desire on the part of some to want to envision patriots fans as "suffering through" the "Spygate Era", to which I say poppycock. BB is one of the greatest coaches ever and is almost single-handedly responsible for the success of the Patriots Dynasty. Hearing a minority of the fan base and the media cry into their ice cream while knowing that BB, unlike Nixon, was engaged in activity that was not unprecedented in the pantheon of borderline scouting techniques makes me laugh.

BB gets my loyalty on a permanent basis. He is a winner and a genius.

Others will say cheater.

I say "good for you".
Well of course the Pats fans are going to "support" him. He cheated on their behalf. See how easy it is to dismiss them. You say winner, the rest of the NFL fanbase says cheater. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. That you say he gets your loyalty no matter what speaks volumes about your objectivity.
ORLY?
:lmao:
 
You can look at it that way.OR you can look at it like every other team in the league probably does this to some degree or another, and the Patriots got caught.....Look, game planning is game planning and execution is execution. To win games in the NFL, you need to execute. I dont care if you knew what play was coming, in TecmoBowl, you could still throw a TD on the all out blitz remember? I think this stuff is all way too over blown. Did they cheat? Probably. Does every team do this? Most likely. Did they get caught? Yup. Are the Patriots still the best team in recent memory? Yes. Do they still have a hall of fame coach and a hall of fame QB? Absolutely.
I think you set a forum record with the most number of biased assumptions in one post
 
This whole ordeal has been very polarizing. Pats fans want to pretend that nothing really happened. Pats haters want to make it out that taping the signals won the Pats 3 Super Bowls. There are a few people in the middle, but those voicing their opinions the most are on one side or the other.
I don't think you're right. I don't think all Pats fans are pretending nothing happened. I don't think all people criticizing cheating are Pats haters. And there are a lot of people who were indifferent to this until the last go-round of videos and press conferences and interviews. And the basic understanding of those people now is that the Patriots cheated for years. Things seemed so polarizing in the Shark Pool because a handful of Patriots defenders tried to label any critic as a hater and to easily dismiss all information, opinion, and criticism that way. But certainly not all Patriots fans were like that. Nor were all critics like that. The loudest and most frequent voices don't always have the most to say, and don't always represent the majority view.
 
I can't wait to see the next press conference Ryan asks a question at. It might be as cold as the Belichick/Tom Jackson interaction quoted in "Patriot Reign".

 
I don't think all people criticizing cheating are Pats haters. And there are a lot of people who were indifferent to this until the last go-round of videos and press conferences and interviews. And the basic understanding of those people now is that the Patriots cheated for years.
:confused: For myself I can't help but think that since they cheated in this way, have been so evasive over the course of the various investigations, and witnessing Belichick's seeming lack of character, accountability and honesty, he probably has them cheating in other ways as well.As long as he's there whatever they accomplish under him will be tainted, and I will not be able to respect the franchise.
 
Gr00vus said:
As long as he's there whatever they accomplish under him will be tainted, and I will not be able to respect the franchise.
I think instead of "Nobody cares about your fantasy team" being the mantra around here, it should become "Nobody cares about your opinion of the Patriots."Funny that we don't hear alot of Lions, Bengals or Cardinals fans clamoring on and on about "the integrity of the league" and tainted Super Bowls. Funny that fans of teams that have also been caught violating NFL rules (tampering, salary cap, chop blocks, dirty players, steroids...) can state their opinion and move on. Seems it's mostly fans of a select few teams that feel the need to keep hammering this topic, not "the entire NFL community". We all know which teams we're talking about and it reeks of sour grapes. Get over it.

Seriously Gr00vus, do you care that I don't respect LaDanian Tomlinson? Do you lose a single second of sleep over the fact I think Shawn Merriman is an absolute clown? I'm certain you don't. Try to put that shoe on the other foot once in a while.

 
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What I don't get in this situation is the complaints against NE after they were caught. Sure, BB's story is flawed, but he did not try to hide anything. He admitted to doing what they were doing for 7 years. He complied with the Commissioner's request to turn over all their notes, tapes, and materials. Where is the cover up on the Patriots' side? They got caught and were penalized.

Goodell was the one that destroyed the tapes, Goodell was the one that didn't fully reveal what was going on, yet the Pats are the ones trying to cover evertyhing up. That seems more like a league and Commissioner issue than a Patriots issue.

Even if we had access to every tape the Patriots made, what would that do? To the casual fan, would that give us anything more than what we already have? How would we know what advantage if any was obtained by having these tapes? Would it indicate what other teams were or were not doing?

Months and months later we have learned that the Patriots broke the rules. That's about it. Peole can play the integrity card all they want, But we still to this point have no idea what they meant in terms of having an advantage or not. The assumption is at some point it may have given them an advantage, but when and how is hard to figure out.

I am not defending the Patriots here, I am only pointing out that months and months later we really don't know all that much. Like I mentioned early, maybe this is a case of NE going 72 mph and getting ticketed with other teams going 68 mph and not getting flagged.

Which is why I suggested that each person individually will come to their own conclusions, but the bottom line for now is the Patriots broke the rules, got caught, were penalized, and not much else seems to be in the offing in terms of additional sanctions. People can agree or disagree with that outcome, but that's where we are.

 
:excited:

I personally just don't see where clamoring on and on is getting some of the FBG posters. It's just irrational to me to get so worked up over a sport, a game. If your only purpose in posting is to be instigative and antagonistic, I wish the moderators would weed you out.

While I was disappointed the Patriots lost the Super Bowl, do you hear me crying over holding/facemask calls that never came? Or the phantom clock stop on the last drive? No you don't, because me posting about it on a message board isn't going to change the fact that the Giants just flat out won. Period.

It's time to move on. Here's to '08. :coffee:

 
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What I don't get in this situation is the complaints against NE after they were caught. Sure, BB's story is flawed, but he did not try to hide anything. He admitted to doing what they were doing for 7 years. He complied with the Commissioner's request to turn over all their notes, tapes, and materials. Where is the cover up on the Patriots' side? They got caught and were penalized.Goodell was the one that destroyed the tapes, Goodell was the one that didn't fully reveal what was going on, yet the Pats are the ones trying to cover evertyhing up. That seems more like a league and Commissioner issue than a Patriots issue.Even if we had access to every tape the Patriots made, what would that do? To the casual fan, would that give us anything more than what we already have? How would we know what advantage if any was obtained by having these tapes? Would it indicate what other teams were or were not doing?Months and months later we have learned that the Patriots broke the rules. That's about it. Peole can play the integrity card all they want, But we still to this point have no idea what they meant in terms of having an advantage or not. The assumption is at some point it may have given them an advantage, but when and how is hard to figure out.I am not defending the Patriots here, I am only pointing out that months and months later we really don't know all that much. Like I mentioned early, maybe this is a case of NE going 72 mph and getting ticketed with other teams going 68 mph and not getting flagged.Which is why I suggested that each person individually will come to their own conclusions, but the bottom line for now is the Patriots broke the rules, got caught, were penalized, and not much else seems to be in the offing in terms of additional sanctions. People can agree or disagree with that outcome, but that's where we are.
Hey David,I respect your opinions and your posts a lot. With that said, I think it is clear that the Patriots have not been as forthcoming as you suggest. That is, they did not reveal to either the commissioner, the league, or the fans that they were intentionally deceptive. That they knew what they were doing was unacceptable even before the memo, to the extent they had cover stories and the like. BB (as representative of the Patriots) has said exactly the opposite and many reasonable people believe it to be an out-and-out lie. Ryan's article is not about the rules, it is about honesty and credability. I believe that the taping gave very little advantage to the Patriots at any point, what it was is a time-saver. They learned nothing they could not have sussed out with more hours by watching game film. This was just a short-cut. Ryan's article is about the cover up.BB has always had the attitude that he owes no information to the media or the fans. His disdain is not even concealed much of the time and it is obvious he is not being forthright at times. Quite simply, very few believed he was honest and credible before and pretty much no one does now. I think he should resign, sit out a year, and coach somewhere else. Just my humble opinion. It is what I would do, but of course I do not have the ego of a BB. That is what has led to this point, ego.
 
That article is not really very relevant to this thread and shoud be pinned to your bulletin board.

And I agreed with almost everything it said.

 
What I don't get in this situation is the complaints against NE after they were caught. Sure, BB's story is flawed, but he did not try to hide anything. He admitted to doing what they were doing for 7 years. He complied with the Commissioner's request to turn over all their notes, tapes, and materials. Where is the cover up on the Patriots' side? They got caught and were penalized.Goodell was the one that destroyed the tapes, Goodell was the one that didn't fully reveal what was going on, yet the Pats are the ones trying to cover evertyhing up. That seems more like a league and Commissioner issue than a Patriots issue.Even if we had access to every tape the Patriots made, what would that do? To the casual fan, would that give us anything more than what we already have? How would we know what advantage if any was obtained by having these tapes? Would it indicate what other teams were or were not doing?Months and months later we have learned that the Patriots broke the rules. That's about it. Peole can play the integrity card all they want, But we still to this point have no idea what they meant in terms of having an advantage or not. The assumption is at some point it may have given them an advantage, but when and how is hard to figure out.I am not defending the Patriots here, I am only pointing out that months and months later we really don't know all that much. Like I mentioned early, maybe this is a case of NE going 72 mph and getting ticketed with other teams going 68 mph and not getting flagged.Which is why I suggested that each person individually will come to their own conclusions, but the bottom line for now is the Patriots broke the rules, got caught, were penalized, and not much else seems to be in the offing in terms of additional sanctions. People can agree or disagree with that outcome, but that's where we are.
Hey David,I respect your opinions and your posts a lot. With that said, I think it is clear that the Patriots have not been as forthcoming as you suggest. That is, they did not reveal to either the commissioner, the league, or the fans that they were intentionally deceptive. That they knew what they were doing was unacceptable even before the memo, to the extent they had cover stories and the like. BB (as representative of the Patriots) has said exactly the opposite and many reasonable people believe it to be an out-and-out lie. Ryan's article is not about the rules, it is about honesty and credability. I believe that the taping gave very little advantage to the Patriots at any point, what it was is a time-saver. They learned nothing they could not have sussed out with more hours by watching game film. This was just a short-cut. Ryan's article is about the cover up.BB has always had the attitude that he owes no information to the media or the fans. His disdain is not even concealed much of the time and it is obvious he is not being forthright at times. Quite simply, very few believed he was honest and credible before and pretty much no one does now. I think he should resign, sit out a year, and coach somewhere else. Just my humble opinion. It is what I would do, but of course I do not have the ego of a BB. That is what has led to this point, ego.
That's just it... think Belichick is a doosh all you want. He cut corners in advanced scouting, and paid the price. All this tainted title talk is BS.It's time to move on.
 
That article is not really very relevant to this thread and shoud be pinned to your bulletin board. And I agreed with almost everything it said.
I'd just like for it to get the same visibility all the anti-Patriots articles get.
I didn't want to make ANOTHER thread about this topic, so I figured I would slip it in here.Its a great, well thought out article and I hope its gets more play.
 
That article is not really very relevant to this thread and shoud be pinned to your bulletin board. And I agreed with almost everything it said.
I'd just like for it to get the same visibility all the anti-Patriots articles get.
I didn't want to make ANOTHER thread about this topic, so I figured I would slip it in here.Its a great, well thought out article and I hope its gets more play.
I agree with you, but I did it anyway.
 
What I don't get in this situation is the complaints against NE after they were caught. Sure, BB's story is flawed, but he did not try to hide anything. He admitted to doing what they were doing for 7 years. He complied with the Commissioner's request to turn over all their notes, tapes, and materials. Where is the cover up on the Patriots' side? They got caught and were penalized.Goodell was the one that destroyed the tapes, Goodell was the one that didn't fully reveal what was going on, yet the Pats are the ones trying to cover evertyhing up. That seems more like a league and Commissioner issue than a Patriots issue.Even if we had access to every tape the Patriots made, what would that do? To the casual fan, would that give us anything more than what we already have? How would we know what advantage if any was obtained by having these tapes? Would it indicate what other teams were or were not doing?Months and months later we have learned that the Patriots broke the rules. That's about it. Peole can play the integrity card all they want, But we still to this point have no idea what they meant in terms of having an advantage or not. The assumption is at some point it may have given them an advantage, but when and how is hard to figure out.I am not defending the Patriots here, I am only pointing out that months and months later we really don't know all that much. Like I mentioned early, maybe this is a case of NE going 72 mph and getting ticketed with other teams going 68 mph and not getting flagged.Which is why I suggested that each person individually will come to their own conclusions, but the bottom line for now is the Patriots broke the rules, got caught, were penalized, and not much else seems to be in the offing in terms of additional sanctions. People can agree or disagree with that outcome, but that's where we are.
Hey David,I respect your opinions and your posts a lot. With that said, I think it is clear that the Patriots have not been as forthcoming as you suggest. That is, they did not reveal to either the commissioner, the league, or the fans that they were intentionally deceptive. That they knew what they were doing was unacceptable even before the memo, to the extent they had cover stories and the like. BB (as representative of the Patriots) has said exactly the opposite and many reasonable people believe it to be an out-and-out lie. Ryan's article is not about the rules, it is about honesty and credability. I believe that the taping gave very little advantage to the Patriots at any point, what it was is a time-saver. They learned nothing they could not have sussed out with more hours by watching game film. This was just a short-cut. Ryan's article is about the cover up.BB has always had the attitude that he owes no information to the media or the fans. His disdain is not even concealed much of the time and it is obvious he is not being forthright at times. Quite simply, very few believed he was honest and credible before and pretty much no one does now. I think he should resign, sit out a year, and coach somewhere else. Just my humble opinion. It is what I would do, but of course I do not have the ego of a BB. That is what has led to this point, ego.
My point was that yes, the Pats were secretive in what they were doing, but they made no bones about it once they were caught. Sure, we can all agree that their cover story was BS (which it was), but how many sports issues do the party that was caught ever come out and come up with a credible story. They admitted to doing what they were doing for 7 years . . . they did not try to make it out to be an isolated incident.I am not condoning what BB did, only that the answer lies somewhere between "everybody else does something similar" to "he should be suspended for a year." What the commissioner ruled is in the middle. For some people that was not enough, to others it was too much.I have a hard time putting myself in Goodell's shoes, as he is employed by 32 owners--not the players. If the league as a whole wantes this to go away, what other recourse did he really have. I am pretty confident that 31 other teams have done other things that do not conform to the rules. Is it in the best interest of the league to air everyone's laundry. The NFL now has much bigger fish to fry (no salary cap looming). Is spending more time and resources really going to uncover much more on the Pats (while again not investigating other teams at all).I certainlt don't claim to have all the answers, and I personbally would not have been outraged if the Pats penalty was lower or higher. That's why they have a commissioner to rule on things. If the league was at falut, it's that they do not clearly define what should happen when a team breaks the rules. THAT'S where they need to work on things. SInce there is no definition to the penatly phase of breaking the rules, then people will whine at wha tht penalty turns out to be.
 
What I don't get in this situation is the complaints against NE after they were caught. Sure, BB's story is flawed, but he did not try to hide anything. He admitted to doing what they were doing for 7 years. He complied with the Commissioner's request to turn over all their notes, tapes, and materials. Where is the cover up on the Patriots' side? They got caught and were penalized.

Goodell was the one that destroyed the tapes, Goodell was the one that didn't fully reveal what was going on, yet the Pats are the ones trying to cover evertyhing up. That seems more like a league and Commissioner issue than a Patriots issue.

Even if we had access to every tape the Patriots made, what would that do? To the casual fan, would that give us anything more than what we already have? How would we know what advantage if any was obtained by having these tapes? Would it indicate what other teams were or were not doing?

Months and months later we have learned that the Patriots broke the rules. That's about it. Peole can play the integrity card all they want, But we still to this point have no idea what they meant in terms of having an advantage or not. The assumption is at some point it may have given them an advantage, but when and how is hard to figure out.

I am not defending the Patriots here, I am only pointing out that months and months later we really don't know all that much. Like I mentioned early, maybe this is a case of NE going 72 mph and getting ticketed with other teams going 68 mph and not getting flagged.

Which is why I suggested that each person individually will come to their own conclusions, but the bottom line for now is the Patriots broke the rules, got caught, were penalized, and not much else seems to be in the offing in terms of additional sanctions. People can agree or disagree with that outcome, but that's where we are.
Hey David,I respect your opinions and your posts a lot. With that said, I think it is clear that the Patriots have not been as forthcoming as you suggest.

That is, they did not reveal to either the commissioner, the league, or the fans that they were intentionally deceptive. That they knew what they were doing was unacceptable even before the memo, to the extent they had cover stories and the like. BB (as representative of the Patriots) has said exactly the opposite and many reasonable people believe it to be an out-and-out lie.

Ryan's article is not about the rules, it is about honesty and credability. I believe that the taping gave very little advantage to the Patriots at any point, what it was is a time-saver. They learned nothing they could not have sussed out with more hours by watching game film. This was just a short-cut. Ryan's article is about the cover up.

BB has always had the attitude that he owes no information to the media or the fans. His disdain is not even concealed much of the time and it is obvious he is not being forthright at times. Quite simply, very few believed he was honest and credible before and pretty much no one does now.

I think he should resign, sit out a year, and coach somewhere else. Just my humble opinion. It is what I would do, but of course I do not have the ego of a BB. That is what has led to this point, ego.
My point was that yes, the Pats were secretive in what they were doing, but they made no bones about it once they were caught. Sure, we can all agree that their cover story was BS (which it was), but how many sports issues do the party that was caught ever come out and come up with a credible story. They admitted to doing what they were doing for 7 years . . . they did not try to make it out to be an isolated incident.I am not condoning what BB did, only that the answer lies somewhere between "everybody else does something similar" to "he should be suspended for a year." What the commissioner ruled is in the middle. For some people that was not enough, to others it was too much.

I have a hard time putting myself in Goodell's shoes, as he is employed by 32 owners--not the players. If the league as a whole wantes this to go away, what other recourse did he really have. I am pretty confident that 31 other teams have done other things that do not conform to the rules. Is it in the best interest of the league to air everyone's laundry. The NFL now has much bigger fish to fry (no salary cap looming). Is spending more time and resources really going to uncover much more on the Pats (while again not investigating other teams at all).

I certainlt don't claim to have all the answers, and I personbally would not have been outraged if the Pats penalty was lower or higher. That's why they have a commissioner to rule on things. If the league was at falut, it's that they do not clearly define what should happen when a team breaks the rules. THAT'S where they need to work on things. SInce there is no definition to the penatly phase of breaking the rules, then people will whine at wha tht penalty turns out to be.
In the NFL's April 23 statement..... "Commissioner Goodell determined last September that the Patriots had violated league rules by videotaping opposing coaches' defensive signals during Patriots games throughout Bill Belichick's tenure as head coach.""If it's just taping of defensive signals, we know that," Goodell said April 2 at the NFL's annual meeting in Palm Beach, Fla. "The Patriots admitted to that.

"I didn't accept Bill Belichick's explanation for what happened [in September]," Goodell said in may of 2008, "and I still don't to this day."

 
Heres a better read:

Why Spygate Is The Most Disgraceful Episode In Recent Sports Media History

This guy Bruce Allen nailed it right on the head.

Too bad for Bob Ryan, I thought he was a good writer but that article just proves that he is like the rest of the mediots.
That writer sucks. He flatly says hew wants to put it behind him.Then he blames the media for causing the poopstorm, when everyone knows who is the cause.

If people tune-in-to and read the stories, then you will get more stories.

And this is the worst...

Whether or not this was really a major rules violation that garnered a significant advantage is not the point. THE NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS CHEATED AND ALL THEIR CHAMPIONSHIPS ARE NOW TAINTED. That’s the message that has been sent out, and that which has been pounded repeatedly into the conscious of the American public.

He has the cause and effect backwards. That message has been sent out by the PUBLIC repeatedly and pounded into the consciousness (no more then what happened with the previous Patriot sausage fest) and then repeated (because it sells and holds public opinion validity) by the media.

 
What I don't get in this situation is the complaints against NE after they were caught. Sure, BB's story is flawed, but he did not try to hide anything. He admitted to doing what they were doing for 7 years. He complied with the Commissioner's request to turn over all their notes, tapes, and materials. Where is the cover up on the Patriots' side? They got caught and were penalized.
C'mon David, this is pretty simple. BB didn't take responsibility for his actions. He claimed to have misinterpreted the rules. It's complete BS, we know it, the Commish knows it, Bob Kraft knows it, and BB knows it. BB should man up and own up to his mistake. His inability to do this fuels the fire.Here's what we all want from BB: 1) admit that he made a mistake, 2) admit that he broke the rules knowingly, 3) insist that he will never break the rules again. Pretty simple.
 
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What I don't get in this situation is the complaints against NE after they were caught. Sure, BB's story is flawed, but he did not try to hide anything. He admitted to doing what they were doing for 7 years. He complied with the Commissioner's request to turn over all their notes, tapes, and materials. Where is the cover up on the Patriots' side? They got caught and were penalized.
C'mon David, this is pretty simple. BB didn't take responsibility for his actions. He claimed to have misinterpreted the rules. It's complete BS, we know it, the Commish knows it, Bob Kraft knows it, and BB knows it. BB should man up and own up to his mistake. His inability to do this fuels the fire.Here's what we all want from BB: 1) admit that he made a mistake, 2) admit that he broke the rules knowingly, 3) insist that he will never break the rules again. Pretty simple.
Here's a transcript of what BB told CBS. People can extract what they want from this and come to their own conclusions . . .What are your overall thoughts to Matt Walsh’s comments?“I’m not really sure where to start. I think, first of all, go back to when he was here and was fired for poor job performance, and then for secretly audio-taping a conversation with his boss. More than one person has told me that he said, after Super Bowl XXXVI, that he had videotaped the Rams walkthrough practice. Now that story has changed. It seems like he has an agenda. I’m not really sure, I don’t know. Three-and-a-half months after that [boston Herald] story was out, he could have said what he said last week [earlier]. But there was quite a bit – over 100 days had passed – so I’m not sure what the agenda is. He’s had a way of embellishing stories and that continues to be the case. I don’t know the answer to those questions.”What is your personal feeling about Matt Walsh right now?“Well, that things seem to be shifting, things seem to be embellished, and he’s made some comments relative to me that I don’t how, or why, he’d come up with those. We didn’t really have much of a relationship at all when he was here. He was in the opposite end of the building, on a different floor. We very rarely saw or talked to each other. For him to represent how I felt, what I thought, or what I did, I don’t know where that would possibly come from. The fact that he has tried to make it seem like we were buddies and belonged to the same book club is really a long, long stretch.”In a statement, this organization questioned “the truthfulness of many of Matt Walsh’s statements.” What do you think he’s lying about?“He’s changed a lot of things he’s said. Whatever his testimony was to the league, most recently, that is kind of the latest version of it.”Is there a specific example to what you think he’s lying about when he talks about how this organization was deceptive, and the way his taping was set up?“That was never the case. He was in full Patriots gear. I can show you videos of him doing his job, during the game, shooting the shot that he shot in the end zone – the kickers, the tight [shot] on the quarterback, and at times [opposing teams’] signals. We weren’t trying to be discreet about it. Again, in all honesty, we felt like what we were doing was OK.”Walsh said it was arrogant of you to say you misinterpreted NFL rules, and that you said that this illegal taping was of little value – 1 out of a scale of 100 – and that his feeling was that it may very well be the reason you won three Super Bowls.“First of all, I’ll start it back first – the reason you win football games is because of players. Players make plays on the field to win games, and that’s how you win them. They’re the ones that win games. But there are a lot of things that go into preparation for a game – it’s a mosaic. There are hundreds of things. In our case, sometimes signals are involved, sometimes they’re not.”Let me go back to the specific thing that Walsh said. He said it was arrogant of you to say you misinterpreted NFL rules.“My interpretation of the NFL rules came from the Constitution & Bylaws. I think it’s paragraph 14 there, the Constitution & Bylaws states, very clearly, that you can not use any type of videotaping device or anything like that, from the start of the game, to the conclusion of the game. That was never done. We never ever, ever used any of the videotaping in any way during the course of any game. That’s what I felt like I was in compliance with, and that’s what my basis for really everything that we’ve done in terms of competing in the National Football League.”I have a copy of those Constitution & Bylaws. It’s article 9, 14b, 14. It ends with “during the playing of a game”. So that’s what you base your defense on – that the taping was legal under NFL bylaws and constitution as long as you were not using it during the playing of a game?“It was never used during the playing of a game. Never. Now, subsequently, there was a memo that Ray Anderson sent out at the beginning of the 2006 season, and that was an error on my part. I take full accountability for that. At that point, I feel like I should have gone to the league. I made a mistake. I should have gone to the league and said ‘Look, are we OK doing this, even though we’re not using it within the game?’ I didn’t do that. We continued to do what we had done previously, at times. It wasn’t every game, but it was a significant number, and did it based on the Constitution – and feeling that as long as we weren’t using it during the game that it was OK.”When you say it was a significant number – from September of ’06 to when you were finally caught in September of ’07 – how many games?“I don’t know. Probably more than half, I would say.”That September of 2006 memo states “videotaping of any kind, including but limited to taping of an opponent’s offensive or defensive signals is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches’ booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club members during the game.” That seems pretty crystal clear to any kind of misinterpretation.“Yeah. Again, during the game.”It says “during the game”. But it does not say “during the playing of a game.” Different.“Right. Clearly it was a mistake.”Some people would say that mistake is just flat out cheating.“Again, I go back to the Constitution & Bylaws. That overrode it. I interpreted it incorrectly. I was wrong and we were penalized for it.”Heavy penalized in your mind? Unfairly penalized in your mind?“It doesn’t really make any difference. It wasn’t my penalty. It was the commissioner’s decision. Whatever it was, that’s what it was.”Others have argued that you chose to gamble, to risk breaking the rules, and got caught – and that it wasn’t a misinterpretation of any kind.“I can’t control what other people think out there. I’m telling you what happened, and that’s what happened. I think if that was our intent then we would have done it in a more discreet way. We were open about it. We had instances where opposing coaches actually turned and waved at the camera. They saw it. There were other teams that we felt like were doing it. Again, look, in preparation for a game, the signals that a coach gives out there, everybody can see. We’ve had coaches in the press box take notes of those signals. We videotaped them. It wasn’t anything that wasn’t visible or wasn’t available. We did it in a way that was more convenient and in a way that we could study a little better. But those signals are available to anybody that wants to see them.”Can I go back to Matt Walsh and his departure? Do you feel what he is saying, in any way, is payback for being fired by this organization?“You’d have to talk to him about that. I don’t know what his…”You have to have an opinion.“Again, I had very little contact with Matt. I didn’t know him personally. As I said, I don’t know if I could recognize him, and I don’t think I could have prior to his recent publicity. So what his agenda is, what his reasons are and so forth, that’s something you’d have to ask him.”Can you clarify what happened with those tapes once they went to Ernie Adams?“Yeah, absolutely. He looked at them and it was, again, a mosaic. It was compiled, it was put in together with a lot of other information about what the team did, and our preparation for the game. But I met with the quarterbacks twice a week. When Charlie [Weis] was the offensive coordinator, Josh [McDaniels] was the offensive coordinator, [Tom] Brady – there were not quarterback/Ernie Adams/Bill Belichick/offensive coordinator meetings where we sat down and looked at signals and made up game-plans based on that. That didn’t happen. It didn’t happen. Ernie looked at them. At times there was some information that came out of it, he used it. That’s how it was done. It was one part of a very broad – hundreds of things that are put into preparation and game-planning. So there was no ‘OK, we’re going to sit down here on this day and have this meeting, and there are the signals, and here are the plays we’re going to run and all that’. That never happened.”So there was no calculated, deliberate system put in place to take advantage of this illegal taping?“No, because you can’t take advantage of signals. You don’t know whether they are ever going to be available or not. They can change them. They can use wristbands. They can have somebody stand in front of the person that is signaling them. We signal all the time. We’re always protective of our signals. We change them on a regular basis. We have people screen the signal-caller and we use wristbands. We protect them, just like a third-base coach does. I think most teams in the league do that.”Some might argue that in a game of inches – putting that type of information, where you can decode signals, come up with specific plays to use in real-time during a game, is pure gold in the NFL, and could be the difference between winning and losing.“Again, you can get those same signals by sitting up in the press box and writing down what the signal is, and what the play was, and doing it that way. Those signals are available to anybody who wants to see them.”Then why do it from the sidelines?“It was a more convenient way to study them. It wasn’t any information that isn’t available to anybody else. Anybody can sit up in the press box and watch a coach give signals.”But they don’t have them on tape, where they can go back and analyze them and they can decode them. Writing them down on a piece of paper…“We’re not talking about DNA. You’ve seen the signals on the sideline. You can sit there and watch them. We’ve done it without tape. We’ve done it, and every team takes an advance scout, or they have people that look at the other teams’ signals. Sometimes you can get them, sometimes they change them. Signaling defenses and personnel, and all that, that is part of football. And everybody is available to see those signals. It’s not like the other team, or the other sideline, or the press box or anybody else -- that they’re not visible. They’re available to 70,000 fans.”If they weren’t of such great value to you and this organization, then why would Matt Walsh say that he was told by this superiors to avoid detection, to not wear Patriots clothing on the sidelines, and to lie if he was asked about what he was shooting?“I don’t know of anybody that would have told him that. I never told anybody to tell him that. I don’t think his superiors told him to do that.”You don’t think, or you don’t know, whether [video director] Jimmy Dee, his superior, told him that?“He was never instructed to do that. Jimmy said that he never did that. But you can see the tapes of Matt filming the games. You can see him in the end-zone camera, shooting them. He’s as open as you can be. He’s standing there behind the camera in full Patriots gear, shooting the tapes. Those tapes [that show Walsh] go to every team in the league [as part of a standard tape exchange]. You can make a judgment on that, Armen. You can see him standing there in the end zone shooting it. It’s not anything discreet.”Since I’m here, is there anything else you’d like to say about this to put this to rest, so to speak?“Yeah, two things. I think that the players and the assistant coaches have no involvement in this whatsoever. For them to be dragged in or questioned at all on it is totally out of the scope and the realm of what this is about. I think our players and our assistant coaches work hard and they prepare hard, and they go out and do their best to win. That’s why I respect them. That’s why they’ve done as well as they have. On a going-forward basis, I think what we’ve taken from this as an organization is that we have learned from the problems we had in the fall. We’ve looked at really every single area of our operation. We’ve tried to tighten it down. We’ve tightened down our accountability. We’ve streamlined some things. We are certainly taking the extra step in every situation that we can, to make sure we are in full, complete compliance with everything we have to do, at every level. And believe me, there are a lot of things that we need to be. There is a very broad spectrum of things that you need to be in compliance with in the National Football League. Commissioner Goodell has instituted kind of an integrity and [reporting requirement] of doing it, and we’ve gone well beyond that to try to make sure we’re doing things in the right way, and I think that has been a positive step for our organization. There is more communication, there is better understanding, and we’re making sure everything is done in a totally proper and consistent way with what the league expects to be done. I think that has strengthened our organization and certainly Robert and Jonathan Kraft have gone a long way to not only supporting me and the football team, but also making sure that going forward, we’re in complete compliance with everything we need to be doing.”
 
Holy fricken spam.

“Yeah, two things. I think that the players and the assistant coaches have no involvement in this whatsoever. For them to be dragged in or questioned at all on it is totally out of the scope and the realm of what this is about. I think our players and our assistant coaches work hard and they prepare hard, and they go out and do their best to win.

Wasnt it already determined that the QBs did in fact work with the knowledge of the signals?

If your QB doesnt know and use the defensive signals to your benefit... not only are you a cheater, your a complete idiot.

 
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BigSteelThrill said:
Holy fricken spam.

“Yeah, two things. I think that the players and the assistant coaches have no involvement in this whatsoever. For them to be dragged in or questioned at all on it is totally out of the scope and the realm of what this is about. I think our players and our assistant coaches work hard and they prepare hard, and they go out and do their best to win.

Wasnt it already determined that the QBs did in fact work with the knowledge of the signals?

If your QB doesnt know and use the defensive signals to your benefit... not only are you a cheater, your a complete idiot.
IIRC, Walsh is the one alleging that that is what the Pats did. But he apparently had no direct contact with the team, especially during the game. So is that a statement of fact or what he tought happened. I certainly have no idea what happened or didn't happened, but people come across some statements (from many sides here) and take them as the truth. Who knows at this point what is real and what is imagined.
 
David Yudkin said:
Michael J Fox said:
David Yudkin said:
What I don't get in this situation is the complaints against NE after they were caught. Sure, BB's story is flawed, but he did not try to hide anything. He admitted to doing what they were doing for 7 years. He complied with the Commissioner's request to turn over all their notes, tapes, and materials. Where is the cover up on the Patriots' side? They got caught and were penalized.
C'mon David, this is pretty simple. BB didn't take responsibility for his actions. He claimed to have misinterpreted the rules. It's complete BS, we know it, the Commish knows it, Bob Kraft knows it, and BB knows it. BB should man up and own up to his mistake. His inability to do this fuels the fire.Here's what we all want from BB: 1) admit that he made a mistake, 2) admit that he broke the rules knowingly, 3) insist that he will never break the rules again. Pretty simple.
Here's a transcript of what BB told CBS. People can extract what they want from this and come to their own conclusions . . .
Nowhere in that rambling statement did I see BB take responsibility. Nowhere. And that is what we're all looking for. Instead he repeatedly fell back on "this was a misinterpretation of the rules". Do I think this is a horrible thing that is destroying humanity? Or even, say, the NFL? No. Am I disappointed by BB's inability to take responsibility? Yeah. Am I disappointed that he won't fess up and say "I broke the rules knowingly?" Yeah. Do I believe for one second that this was an innocent mistake? No.I'm completely befuddled by your response to my post. The transcript you posted didn't even come close to addressing any of my points.
 
BigSteelThrill said:
Wasnt it already determined that the QBs did in fact work with the knowledge of the signals?
I believe there was an article within the last week that quoted an unnamed Patriots QB as saying they knew it. I'll see if I can find it.edit: NY Times interview with Walsh

The Patriots kept the circle of people who knew small. The only ones who knew, Walsh said, were Dee and another video department employee, Fernando Neto, Belichick, Adams, the offensive coordinator Charlie Weis and the quarterbacks.
After filming opponents’ signals, Walsh would edit the tape or deliver the original to Adams. Walsh said a quarterback — he declined to say whom — would learn the signals, and the next time the Patriots played that team, the quarterback would relay that information to Weis, who would use the coach-to-quarterback communication system to send the information to the field.
In the week after the game, Walsh said he asked a quarterback — again, he declined to name whom — how helpful the signals were. Walsh said the quarterback told him “probably about 75 percent of the time, Tampa Bay ran the defense we thought they were going to run — if not more.” (Bledsoe was the Patriots’ starting quarterback in 2000. The other quarterbacks on the roster were Tom Brady, Michael Bishop and John Friesz.)
 
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