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Breaking news - Coin Tosses are not 50-50 (1 Viewer)

CuttingEdge

Footballguy
Crazy

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This is adapted from David E. Adler's book Snap Judgment, published this month by FT Press.

Coin tosses are a classic metaphor in economics for randomness. For instance, in his book about market efficiency, A Random Walk Down Wall Street, economist Burton Malkiel compares the price movements of the stock market to the random outcome of a flipped coin: "ometimes one gets positive price changes for several days in a row; but sometimes when you are flipping a coin you also get a long string of ‘heads' in a row." According to Malkiel, mathematicians' terms for the sequences of numbers produced by any random process—in this case a coin flip—is known as a random walk. To him, this is exactly what stock price movements look like; hence the title of his book.

Similarly, Nassim Taleb, in Fooled by Randomness, points out that the seemingly amazing success of money managers at beating the market is often best explained by pure chance. Randomness alone could easily explain why any one manager could do well for several years in a row. Instead, people misperceive patterns in what are, in fact, purely random sequences, akin to the outcomes of a coin flip. And as everyone knows, coin flips produce "heads and tails with 50% odds each."

Lately, the idea of randomness in stock market prices has come under attack; prices for individual stocks (but not the market on the whole) often show small momentum effects: Stocks that go up tend to keep going up, and stocks that are going down tend to keep going down. But the metaphor of a coin flip for randomness remains unquestioned. We use coin tosses to settle disputes and decide outcomes because we believe they are unbiased with 50-50 odds.

Yet recent research into coin flips has discovered that the laws of mechanics determine the outcome of coin tosses: The startling finding is they aren't random. Instead, for natural flips, the chance of a coin coming up on the same side as it started is about 51 percent. Heads facing up predicts heads; tails facing up predicts tails.

Three academics—Persi Diaconis, Susan Holmes, and Richard Montgomery—through vigorous analysis made an interesting discovery at Stanford University. As they note in their published results, "Dynamical Bias in the Coin Toss," laws of mechanics govern coin flips, meaning, "their flight is determined by their initial conditions."

The physics—and math—behind this discovery are very complex. But some of the basic ideas are simple: If the force of the flip is the same, the outcome is the same. To understand more about flips, the academics built a coin-tossing machine and filmed it using a slow-motion camera. This confirmed that the outcome of flips isn't random. The machine could make the toss come out heads every time.

When people, rather than a machine, flipped the coin, results were less predictable, but there was still a slight physical bias favoring the position the coin started in. If the coin started heads up, then it would land heads up 51 percent of the time. Part of the reason real flips are less certain isn't just that the force of the flip can vary; it's that coins flipped by humans tend to rotate around several axes at once. Flipped coins tumble over and over, but they also spin around and around, like pizza dough being twirled. This spinning around is technically known as "precession." The greater the precession in a flip, the more unpredictable the outcome.

I spoke to Holmes, a statistician at Stanford, about her research. She told me that when most people hear about this weird finding, they think it has something to do with the density of the coin, but she was able to disprove this by constructing a coin made out of balsa wood on one face and metal on the other. This made no difference to the flips. The dynamics of the coin flip, and its outcome, aren't determined by the lack of balance in the coin but instead by the physics of spinning and flipping.

The true laws of coin tosses show yet again the inadequacy of our intuition (as well as the flawed metaphors favored by economists). We are indeed fooled by randomness. But we are also fooled by nearly random processes that look random, even if they aren't, because the differences are too subtle for us to notice. And hence we continue to use coin flips as a figure of speech but also in real life, particularly in gambling and professional sports.

I asked Holmes if coin flips used for, say, football, should be eliminated because they are biased. She pointed out that there is no reason to change the way the coin flip is done, as long as the person calling the flip doesn't know how the coin is going to start out. In football, the tosser is never the caller; the tosser is supposed to be a referee. But if you are both the caller and the tosser ... well, that changes things. Knowing about the bias in coin tosses give you an edge, albeit a tiny one.

Holmes admits she still uses the metaphor of a coin toss in her statistics class at Stanford all the time—after all, the randomness in a coin toss is off only very, very slightly, with odds being 51-49. But certain people, when they flip a coin, can make it come out heads (or tails) 100 percent of the time. Diaconis, Holmes' co-author and husband, is one of the people with this amazing talent. Before becoming a mathematician, he was a professional magician. Among his proofs is that it requires a full seven shuffles to truly randomize a deck of cards. He was admitted to graduate school at Harvard University after two of his card tricks were published in Scientific American.

So how exactly is Diaconis able to make a coin toss come out a certain way? Susan Holmes won't tell me: "It comes from his previous career-it's magic."

 
So how does impact Two Face from Batman? He has a two-headed coin; does the head with the scratch marks count as tails?

 
Nassim Taleb, in Fooled by Randomness, points out that the seemingly amazing success of money managers at beating the market is often best explained by pure chance. Randomness alone could easily explain why any one manager could do well for several years in a row. Instead, people misperceive patterns in what are, in fact, purely random sequences
To me, this is the most important point of the article. Folks tend to follow succesful traders, sports bettors, etc., as if they have some sort of magic formula. In reality, most are just the product of a normal distribution.
 
:yawn: one of these days the penny will land on its side and throw everything off. pure pandemonium. these scientists will cream themselves.
 
I believe the adage refers to the mathematical science of the outcomes, ie:

1 result/2 outcomes = 50%.

Integers only.

 
Fooled by Randomness is a good book, and helps to explain why some of the crappy drafters in my FFL manage to win so often!

 
Not surprisingly, though one full percentage point is actually a pretty huge variance.

What's more interesting about randomness is the mathematics behind streaks. Most people can't naturally get their heads around it. Let's assume that a coin toss really is a 50/50 event. If you toss the coin 10 times, the odds of getting 7 in a row of heads or tails is somewhere around 2%. If you do it 100 times, the odds go up to 32%.

I got into a debate at work about this in the context of double betting after a loss at the casino. Let's say you are playing blackjack and you are really really good, to the point where each draw is a 50/50 event. My friend was postulating that if you simply double your bet after every loss, you will beat the house. Say you are at a $2 table. You lose your $2 bet, so the next bet you go to $4. If you win, you win back your prior bet and you are $2 ahead. If you lose, the next bet gets raised to $8. Once again, you are betting $8 to win $2. You are basically betting against streaks.

My argument was that at some point - a lot quicker than most people will imagine, you will hit the maximum bet at the table. You'll also be in the ridiculous circumstance of having to bet $256 to win back $2. And the likelihood of 8 straight losses is a LOT higher than people think, particularly when you are at a blackjack table for 4 or 5 hours. If you ever wondered why a casino has maximum bets at the table, this is the reason.

Where math really gets weird is when it comes to probabilities with pairing. For instance, what is the probability that two people have the same birthday. There are 365 possible birthdays, so you might think you need 183 people in a room for there to be a 50/50 chance that two people have the same birthday. In reality, you only need 23. Yup, if you have a room full of 23 people there is a greater than 50/50 chance that two people in the room have the same birthday. I asked this question once to a room full of actuaries and nobody got it right.

All of this helps explain superstition and religion. What people don't realize is that crazy random events are bound to happen to you. It's not God thinking you are special. Just the opposite.

 
Not surprisingly, though one full percentage point is actually a pretty huge variance.

What's more interesting about randomness is the mathematics behind streaks. Most people can't naturally get their heads around it. Let's assume that a coin toss really is a 50/50 event. If you toss the coin 10 times, the odds of getting 7 in a row of heads or tails is somewhere around 2%. If you do it 100 times, the odds go up to 32%.

I got into a debate at work about this in the context of double betting after a loss at the casino. Let's say you are playing blackjack and you are really really good, to the point where each draw is a 50/50 event. My friend was postulating that if you simply double your bet after every loss, you will beat the house. Say you are at a $2 table. You lose your $2 bet, so the next bet you go to $4. If you win, you win back your prior bet and you are $2 ahead. If you lose, the next bet gets raised to $8. Once again, you are betting $8 to win $2. You are basically betting against streaks.

My argument was that at some point - a lot quicker than most people will imagine, you will hit the maximum bet at the table. You'll also be in the ridiculous circumstance of having to bet $256 to win back $2. And the likelihood of 8 straight losses is a LOT higher than people think, particularly when you are at a blackjack table for 4 or 5 hours. If you ever wondered why a casino has maximum bets at the table, this is the reason.

Where math really gets weird is when it comes to probabilities with pairing. For instance, what is the probability that two people have the same birthday. There are 365 possible birthdays, so you might think you need 183 people in a room for there to be a 50/50 chance that two people have the same birthday. In reality, you only need 23. Yup, if you have a room full of 23 people there is a greater than 50/50 chance that two people in the room have the same birthday. I asked this question once to a room full of actuaries and nobody got it right.

All of this helps explain superstition and religion. What people don't realize is that crazy random events are bound to happen to you. It's not God thinking you are special. Just the opposite.
This is very :goodposting: but I have to call :bs: on the bolded. Anyone who took any sort of statistics as part of a high school algebra class knows this in spirit (may not get the precise probability correct), and a room full of actuaries would too.
 
Where math really gets weird is when it comes to probabilities with pairing. For instance, what is the probability that two people have the same birthday. There are 365 possible birthdays, so you might think you need 183 people in a room for there to be a 50/50 chance that two people have the same birthday. In reality, you only need 23. Yup, if you have a room full of 23 people there is a greater than 50/50 chance that two people in the room have the same birthday. I asked this question once to a room full of actuaries and nobody got it right.
This is common knowledge. No way you asked anyone prepping for the P1, let alone an actual actuary that missed that.

 
Not surprisingly, though one full percentage point is actually a pretty huge variance.

What's more interesting about randomness is the mathematics behind streaks. Most people can't naturally get their heads around it. Let's assume that a coin toss really is a 50/50 event. If you toss the coin 10 times, the odds of getting 7 in a row of heads or tails is somewhere around 2%. If you do it 100 times, the odds go up to 32%.

I got into a debate at work about this in the context of double betting after a loss at the casino. Let's say you are playing blackjack and you are really really good, to the point where each draw is a 50/50 event. My friend was postulating that if you simply double your bet after every loss, you will beat the house. Say you are at a $2 table. You lose your $2 bet, so the next bet you go to $4. If you win, you win back your prior bet and you are $2 ahead. If you lose, the next bet gets raised to $8. Once again, you are betting $8 to win $2. You are basically betting against streaks.

My argument was that at some point - a lot quicker than most people will imagine, you will hit the maximum bet at the table. You'll also be in the ridiculous circumstance of having to bet $256 to win back $2. And the likelihood of 8 straight losses is a LOT higher than people think, particularly when you are at a blackjack table for 4 or 5 hours. If you ever wondered why a casino has maximum bets at the table, this is the reason.

Where math really gets weird is when it comes to probabilities with pairing. For instance, what is the probability that two people have the same birthday. There are 365 possible birthdays, so you might think you need 183 people in a room for there to be a 50/50 chance that two people have the same birthday. In reality, you only need 23. Yup, if you have a room full of 23 people there is a greater than 50/50 chance that two people in the room have the same birthday. I asked this question once to a room full of actuaries and nobody got it right.

All of this helps explain superstition and religion. What people don't realize is that crazy random events are bound to happen to you. It's not God thinking you are special. Just the opposite.
But did any of them share the same birthday?

 
Where math really gets weird is when it comes to probabilities with pairing. For instance, what is the probability that two people have the same birthday. There are 365 possible birthdays, so you might think you need 183 people in a room for there to be a 50/50 chance that two people have the same birthday. In reality, you only need 23. Yup, if you have a room full of 23 people there is a greater than 50/50 chance that two people in the room have the same birthday. I asked this question once to a room full of actuaries and nobody got it right.
This is common knowledge. No way you asked anyone prepping for the P1, let alone an actual actuary that missed that.
LOL. Common knowledge? Go the nearest mall and ask 100 people how many people you need in a room for the odds to be 50/50 that two people have the same birthday and see how many say 23. I guarantee you less than 5% will get it right. I use it as a regular ice breaker in presentations I do and people never get it right.
 
Where math really gets weird is when it comes to probabilities with pairing. For instance, what is the probability that two people have the same birthday. There are 365 possible birthdays, so you might think you need 183 people in a room for there to be a 50/50 chance that two people have the same birthday. In reality, you only need 23. Yup, if you have a room full of 23 people there is a greater than 50/50 chance that two people in the room have the same birthday. I asked this question once to a room full of actuaries and nobody got it right.
This is common knowledge. No way you asked anyone prepping for the P1, let alone an actual actuary that missed that.
LOL. Common knowledge? Go the nearest mall and ask 100 people how many people you need in a room for the odds to be 50/50 that two people have the same birthday and see how many say 23. I guarantee you less than 5% will get it right. I use it as a regular ice breaker in presentations I do and people never get it right.
What are you? A regional manager at McDonald's?

 
Where math really gets weird is when it comes to probabilities with pairing. For instance, what is the probability that two people have the same birthday. There are 365 possible birthdays, so you might think you need 183 people in a room for there to be a 50/50 chance that two people have the same birthday. In reality, you only need 23. Yup, if you have a room full of 23 people there is a greater than 50/50 chance that two people in the room have the same birthday. I asked this question once to a room full of actuaries and nobody got it right.
This is common knowledge. No way you asked anyone prepping for the P1, let alone an actual actuary that missed that.
LOL. Common knowledge? Go the nearest mall and ask 100 people how many people you need in a room for the odds to be 50/50 that two people have the same birthday and see how many say 23. I guarantee you less than 5% will get it right. I use it as a regular ice breaker in presentations I do and people never get it right.
What are you? A regional manager at McDonald's?
Not a clueless know-it-all like you. I went to a fancy Ivy League school full of dumb smart people like you. Get in touch with the real world my friend. You might learn something new something interesting.
 
Where math really gets weird is when it comes to probabilities with pairing. For instance, what is the probability that two people have the same birthday. There are 365 possible birthdays, so you might think you need 183 people in a room for there to be a 50/50 chance that two people have the same birthday. In reality, you only need 23. Yup, if you have a room full of 23 people there is a greater than 50/50 chance that two people in the room have the same birthday. I asked this question once to a room full of actuaries and nobody got it right.
This is common knowledge. No way you asked anyone prepping for the P1, let alone an actual actuary that missed that.
LOL. Common knowledge? Go the nearest mall and ask 100 people how many people you need in a room for the odds to be 50/50 that two people have the same birthday and see how many say 23. I guarantee you less than 5% will get it right. I use it as a regular ice breaker in presentations I do and people never get it right.
What are you? A regional manager at McDonald's?
Not a clueless know-it-all like you. I went to a fancy Ivy League school full of dumb smart people like you. Get in touch with the real world my friend. You might learn something new something interesting.
Further proof that it's not who you know it's who you blow.

Just admit it. You tried to drop some BS hoping the rest of the board is more ignorant than you are.

SMH. Room full of actuaries... :lmao:

 
Where math really gets weird is when it comes to probabilities with pairing. For instance, what is the probability that two people have the same birthday. There are 365 possible birthdays, so you might think you need 183 people in a room for there to be a 50/50 chance that two people have the same birthday. In reality, you only need 23. Yup, if you have a room full of 23 people there is a greater than 50/50 chance that two people in the room have the same birthday. I asked this question once to a room full of actuaries and nobody got it right.
This is common knowledge. No way you asked anyone prepping for the P1, let alone an actual actuary that missed that.
LOL. Common knowledge? Go the nearest mall and ask 100 people how many people you need in a room for the odds to be 50/50 that two people have the same birthday and see how many say 23. I guarantee you less than 5% will get it right. I use it as a regular ice breaker in presentations I do and people never get it right.
What are you? A regional manager at McDonald's?
Not a clueless know-it-all like you. I went to a fancy Ivy League school full of dumb smart people like you. Get in touch with the real world my friend. You might learn something new something interesting.
Further proof that it's not who you know it's who you blow.Just admit it. You tried to drop some BS hoping the rest of the board is more ignorant than you are.

SMH. Room full of actuaries... :lmao:
lolI get the feeling we'd learn more if we shelled out $250 for the starter kit for his "system". Then we could sign up for the seminar! :woot:

 
Where math really gets weird is when it comes to probabilities with pairing. For instance, what is the probability that two people have the same birthday. There are 365 possible birthdays, so you might think you need 183 people in a room for there to be a 50/50 chance that two people have the same birthday. In reality, you only need 23. Yup, if you have a room full of 23 people there is a greater than 50/50 chance that two people in the room have the same birthday. I asked this question once to a room full of actuaries and nobody got it right.
This is common knowledge. No way you asked anyone prepping for the P1, let alone an actual actuary that missed that.
LOL. Common knowledge? Go the nearest mall and ask 100 people how many people you need in a room for the odds to be 50/50 that two people have the same birthday and see how many say 23. I guarantee you less than 5% will get it right. I use it as a regular ice breaker in presentations I do and people never get it right.
What are you? A regional manager at McDonald's?
Not a clueless know-it-all like you. I went to a fancy Ivy League school full of dumb smart people like you. Get in touch with the real world my friend. You might learn something new something interesting.
Further proof that it's not who you know it's who you blow.Just admit it. You tried to drop some BS hoping the rest of the board is more ignorant than you are.

SMH. Room full of actuaries... :lmao:
Ok blowhard. Just look at it this way - I gave you an opportunity to share with the rest of a football message board what a mathematical genius you are. So much so that you think the info I posted is "common knowledge". That right there shows how completely out of touch you are.Once again, take a trip outside, get some fresh air, and interact with the common man. You might find you're a lot less special than you fancy yourself to be.

 
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Where math really gets weird is when it comes to probabilities with pairing. For instance, what is the probability that two people have the same birthday. There are 365 possible birthdays, so you might think you need 183 people in a room for there to be a 50/50 chance that two people have the same birthday. In reality, you only need 23. Yup, if you have a room full of 23 people there is a greater than 50/50 chance that two people in the room have the same birthday. I asked this question once to a room full of actuaries and nobody got it right.
This is common knowledge. No way you asked anyone prepping for the P1, let alone an actual actuary that missed that.
LOL. Common knowledge? Go the nearest mall and ask 100 people how many people you need in a room for the odds to be 50/50 that two people have the same birthday and see how many say 23. I guarantee you less than 5% will get it right. I use it as a regular ice breaker in presentations I do and people never get it right.
What are you? A regional manager at McDonald's?
Not a clueless know-it-all like you. I went to a fancy Ivy League school full of dumb smart people like you. Get in touch with the real world my friend. You might learn something new something interesting.
Further proof that it's not who you know it's who you blow.Just admit it. You tried to drop some BS hoping the rest of the board is more ignorant than you are.

SMH. Room full of actuaries... :lmao:
Ok blowhard. Just look at it this way - I gave you an opportunity to share with the rest of a football message board what a mathematical genius you are. So much so that you think the info I posted is "common knowledge". That right there shows how completely out of touch you are.Once again, take a trip outside, get some fresh air, and interact with the common man. You might find you're a lot less special than you fancy yourself to be.
Is that what you wanted? My mathematical genius? I am probably bringing down the average where I work but I work in re-insurance. You figure it out.

I don't think I'm special at all Chief, just calling out a bull####ter.

 
Not surprisingly, though one full percentage point is actually a pretty huge variance.

What's more interesting about randomness is the mathematics behind streaks. Most people can't naturally get their heads around it. Let's assume that a coin toss really is a 50/50 event. If you toss the coin 10 times, the odds of getting 7 in a row of heads or tails is somewhere around 2%. If you do it 100 times, the odds go up to 32%.

I got into a debate at work about this in the context of double betting after a loss at the casino. Let's say you are playing blackjack and you are really really good, to the point where each draw is a 50/50 event. My friend was postulating that if you simply double your bet after every loss, you will beat the house. Say you are at a $2 table. You lose your $2 bet, so the next bet you go to $4. If you win, you win back your prior bet and you are $2 ahead. If you lose, the next bet gets raised to $8. Once again, you are betting $8 to win $2. You are basically betting against streaks.

My argument was that at some point - a lot quicker than most people will imagine, you will hit the maximum bet at the table. You'll also be in the ridiculous circumstance of having to bet $256 to win back $2. And the likelihood of 8 straight losses is a LOT higher than people think, particularly when you are at a blackjack table for 4 or 5 hours. If you ever wondered why a casino has maximum bets at the table, this is the reason.

Where math really gets weird is when it comes to probabilities with pairing. For instance, what is the probability that two people have the same birthday. There are 365 possible birthdays, so you might think you need 183 people in a room for there to be a 50/50 chance that two people have the same birthday. In reality, you only need 23. Yup, if you have a room full of 23 people there is a greater than 50/50 chance that two people in the room have the same birthday. I asked this question once to a room full of actuaries and nobody got it right.

All of this helps explain superstition and religion. What people don't realize is that crazy random events are bound to happen to you. It's not God thinking you are special. Just the opposite.
Pretty interesting revelation on that blackjack betting theory...might want to see if you can coins term for it

 
Where math really gets weird is when it comes to probabilities with pairing. For instance, what is the probability that two people have the same birthday. There are 365 possible birthdays, so you might think you need 183 people in a room for there to be a 50/50 chance that two people have the same birthday. In reality, you only need 23. Yup, if you have a room full of 23 people there is a greater than 50/50 chance that two people in the room have the same birthday. I asked this question once to a room full of actuaries and nobody got it right.
This is common knowledge. No way you asked anyone prepping for the P1, let alone an actual actuary that missed that.
LOL. Common knowledge? Go the nearest mall and ask 100 people how many people you need in a room for the odds to be 50/50 that two people have the same birthday and see how many say 23. I guarantee you less than 5% will get it right. I use it as a regular ice breaker in presentations I do and people never get it right.
What are you? A regional manager at McDonald's?
Not a clueless know-it-all like you. I went to a fancy Ivy League school full of dumb smart people like you. Get in touch with the real world my friend. You might learn something new something interesting.
Further proof that it's not who you know it's who you blow.Just admit it. You tried to drop some BS hoping the rest of the board is more ignorant than you are.

SMH. Room full of actuaries... :lmao:
Ok blowhard. Just look at it this way - I gave you an opportunity to share with the rest of a football message board what a mathematical genius you are. So much so that you think the info I posted is "common knowledge". That right there shows how completely out of touch you are.Once again, take a trip outside, get some fresh air, and interact with the common man. You might find you're a lot less special than you fancy yourself to be.
Is that what you wanted? My mathematical genius? I am probably bringing down the average where I work but I work in re-insurance. You figure it out.I don't think I'm special at all Chief, just calling out a bull####ter.
Well, turns out you were wrong, so I guess you don't know as much as you thought. Tell you what, I have another meeting tomorrow with a couple of Actuaries. I'll let you know if they figure it out.I totally get why you're so frustrated though. It must suck to spend your whole day developing rates only to watch Underwriting guys like me completely blow them up.

 
Not surprisingly, though one full percentage point is actually a pretty huge variance.

What's more interesting about randomness is the mathematics behind streaks. Most people can't naturally get their heads around it. Let's assume that a coin toss really is a 50/50 event. If you toss the coin 10 times, the odds of getting 7 in a row of heads or tails is somewhere around 2%. If you do it 100 times, the odds go up to 32%.

I got into a debate at work about this in the context of double betting after a loss at the casino. Let's say you are playing blackjack and you are really really good, to the point where each draw is a 50/50 event. My friend was postulating that if you simply double your bet after every loss, you will beat the house. Say you are at a $2 table. You lose your $2 bet, so the next bet you go to $4. If you win, you win back your prior bet and you are $2 ahead. If you lose, the next bet gets raised to $8. Once again, you are betting $8 to win $2. You are basically betting against streaks.

My argument was that at some point - a lot quicker than most people will imagine, you will hit the maximum bet at the table. You'll also be in the ridiculous circumstance of having to bet $256 to win back $2. And the likelihood of 8 straight losses is a LOT higher than people think, particularly when you are at a blackjack table for 4 or 5 hours. If you ever wondered why a casino has maximum bets at the table, this is the reason.

Where math really gets weird is when it comes to probabilities with pairing. For instance, what is the probability that two people have the same birthday. There are 365 possible birthdays, so you might think you need 183 people in a room for there to be a 50/50 chance that two people have the same birthday. In reality, you only need 23. Yup, if you have a room full of 23 people there is a greater than 50/50 chance that two people in the room have the same birthday. I asked this question once to a room full of actuaries and nobody got it right.

All of this helps explain superstition and religion. What people don't realize is that crazy random events are bound to happen to you. It's not God thinking you are special. Just the opposite.
Pretty interesting revelation on that blackjack betting theory...might want to see if you can coins term for it
I'm sure there's a term for it - and I'm pretty sure you know it as well. For me, any gambling related term can be boiled down to one tag - #gamblingisforlosers#. Have fun at the slots pal.
 
Where math really gets weird is when it comes to probabilities with pairing. For instance, what is the probability that two people have the same birthday. There are 365 possible birthdays, so you might think you need 183 people in a room for there to be a 50/50 chance that two people have the same birthday. In reality, you only need 23. Yup, if you have a room full of 23 people there is a greater than 50/50 chance that two people in the room have the same birthday. I asked this question once to a room full of actuaries and nobody got it right.
This is common knowledge. No way you asked anyone prepping for the P1, let alone an actual actuary that missed that.
LOL. Common knowledge? Go the nearest mall and ask 100 people how many people you need in a room for the odds to be 50/50 that two people have the same birthday and see how many say 23. I guarantee you less than 5% will get it right. I use it as a regular ice breaker in presentations I do and people never get it right.
What are you? A regional manager at McDonald's?
Not a clueless know-it-all like you. I went to a fancy Ivy League school full of dumb smart people like you. Get in touch with the real world my friend. You might learn something new something interesting.
Further proof that it's not who you know it's who you blow.Just admit it. You tried to drop some BS hoping the rest of the board is more ignorant than you are.

SMH. Room full of actuaries... :lmao:
Ok blowhard. Just look at it this way - I gave you an opportunity to share with the rest of a football message board what a mathematical genius you are. So much so that you think the info I posted is "common knowledge". That right there shows how completely out of touch you are.Once again, take a trip outside, get some fresh air, and interact with the common man. You might find you're a lot less special than you fancy yourself to be.
Is that what you wanted? My mathematical genius? I am probably bringing down the average where I work but I work in re-insurance. You figure it out.I don't think I'm special at all Chief, just calling out a bull####ter.
Well, turns out you were wrong, so I guess you don't know as much as you thought. Tell you what, I have another meeting tomorrow with a couple of Actuaries. I'll let you know if they figure it out.I totally get why you're so frustrated though. It must suck to spend your whole day developing rates only to watch Underwriting guys like me completely blow them up.
:lmao:

Never had my "rates blown up". Low end of my range? Sure. I get paid the same either way. You, OTOH, are still full of ####.

 
Just came back from a party - 25 people in the room - all very successful, college educated. One person a Doctor, another a CPA, and one person who worked in the West Wing of the White House as an intern two summers ago - writing portions of Obama's speeches. Not one single person knew the answer. Common knowledge indeed. I think we all know who's full of #### here.

 
25 people in the same room with you and no actuaries? What are the odds? :o

 
Just came back from a party - 25 people in the room - all very successful, college educated. One person a Doctor, another a CPA, and one person who worked in the West Wing of the White House as an intern two summers ago - writing portions of Obama's speeches. Not one single person knew the answer. Common knowledge indeed. I think we all know who's full of #### here.
Did any of them have the same birthday?

 
Just came back from a party - 25 people in the room - all very successful, college educated. One person a Doctor, another a CPA, and one person who worked in the West Wing of the White House as an intern two summers ago - writing portions of Obama's speeches. Not one single person knew the answer. Common knowledge indeed. I think we all know who's full of #### here.
Were there any guesses even in the right ballpark? It's the sort of question where the actual number (23?) isn't as important as the idea that it could be such a seemingly low number.

 
Just came back from a party - 25 people in the room - all very successful, college educated. One person a Doctor, another a CPA, and one person who worked in the West Wing of the White House as an intern two summers ago - writing portions of Obama's speeches. Not one single person knew the answer. Common knowledge indeed. I think we all know who's full of #### here.
Did any of them have the same birthday?
LOL. Yes! We already knew that the White House intern and the CPA have the same birthday. And the CPA actually came closest to getting the answer, though he conceded afterward it was a WAG. The most comical part of it was watching the "smartest guy in the room" yell repeatedly that there was "no way in hell" 23 was the correct answer.
 
All of this helps explain superstition and religion. What people don't realize is that crazy random events are bound to happen to you. It's not God thinking you are special. Just the opposite.
It's God thinking you are not special?

;)

 
What type of presentations are you giving where that is a relevant ice breaker?
Insurance related stuff - mostly predictive modeling where the results run contrary to what Underwriters have long since thought and felt. It's a reasonably good way of getting people to appreciate how what appears to be a basic math problem can be unintuitive and very complicated.

 
A couple of things:

Chasing your bet is known to be foolish, the example normally given is in roulette since any human ability is removed. At some point you hit the table max, as mentioned, or your bank roll gets eaten up because it is way too small.

The birthday thing isn't common knowledge for your typical person. However, I would imagine that in a room full of actuaries many would have heard it before. Just because someone doesn't stand up and shout out the answer, doesn't mean it is something they are clueless about. They may not want to look silly if they are not 100% sure, may think you don't want anyone to actually respond since it is part of your speech, or simply don't care enough to stand up and respond. I have heard this several times myself but don't think I would have jumped at the opportunity to answer.

 
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Just came back from a party - 25 people in the room - all very successful, college educated. One person a Doctor, another a CPA, and one person who worked in the West Wing of the White House as an intern two summers ago - writing portions of Obama's speeches. Not one single person knew the answer. Common knowledge indeed. I think we all know who's full of #### here.
Were there any guesses even in the right ballpark? It's the sort of question where the actual number (23?) isn't as important as the idea that it could be such a seemingly low number.
Someone guessed 22 but he wasn't given credit.

 
:lmao: at General Tso.

I don't think this has gone how he thought it would after that big "informative" post.

 
Just came back from a party - 25 people in the room - all very successful, college educated. One person a Doctor, another a CPA, and one person who worked in the West Wing of the White House as an intern two summers ago - writing portions of Obama's speeches. Not one single person knew the answer. Common knowledge indeed. I think we all know who's full of #### here.
Did any of them have the same birthday?
LOL. Yes! We already knew that the White House intern and the CPA have the same birthday. And the CPA actually came closest to getting the answer, though he conceded afterward it was a WAG. The most comical part of it was watching the "smartest guy in the room" yell repeatedly that there was "no way in hell" 23 was the correct answer.
OK but why were you yelling?
 
Not surprisingly, though one full percentage point is actually a pretty huge variance.

What's more interesting about randomness is the mathematics behind streaks. Most people can't naturally get their heads around it. Let's assume that a coin toss really is a 50/50 event. If you toss the coin 10 times, the odds of getting 7 in a row of heads or tails is somewhere around 2%. If you do it 100 times, the odds go up to 32%.

I got into a debate at work about this in the context of double betting after a loss at the casino. Let's say you are playing blackjack and you are really really good, to the point where each draw is a 50/50 event. My friend was postulating that if you simply double your bet after every loss, you will beat the house. Say you are at a $2 table. You lose your $2 bet, so the next bet you go to $4. If you win, you win back your prior bet and you are $2 ahead. If you lose, the next bet gets raised to $8. Once again, you are betting $8 to win $2. You are basically betting against streaks.

My argument was that at some point - a lot quicker than most people will imagine, you will hit the maximum bet at the table. You'll also be in the ridiculous circumstance of having to bet $256 to win back $2. And the likelihood of 8 straight losses is a LOT higher than people think, particularly when you are at a blackjack table for 4 or 5 hours. If you ever wondered why a casino has maximum bets at the table, this is the reason.

Where math really gets weird is when it comes to probabilities with pairing. For instance, what is the probability that two people have the same birthday. There are 365 possible birthdays, so you might think you need 183 people in a room for there to be a 50/50 chance that two people have the same birthday. In reality, you only need 23. Yup, if you have a room full of 23 people there is a greater than 50/50 chance that two people in the room have the same birthday. I asked this question once to a room full of actuaries and nobody got it right.

All of this helps explain superstition and religion. What people don't realize is that crazy random events are bound to happen to you. It's not God thinking you are special. Just the opposite.
You can always change to a table with higher limits.

 
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A couple of things:

Chasing your bet is known to be foolish, the example normally given is in roulette since any human ability is removed. At some point you hit the table max, as mentioned, or your bank roll gets eaten up because it is way too small.

The birthday thing isn't common knowledge for your typical person. However, I would imagine that in a room full of actuaries many would have heard it before. Just because someone doesn't stand up and shout out the answer, doesn't mean it is something they are clueless about. They may not want to look silly if they are not 100% sure, may think you don't want anyone to actually respond since it is part of your speech, or simply don't care enough to stand up and respond. I have heard this several times myself but don't think I would have jumped at the opportunity to answer.
I've heard it several times. I wouldn't have shouted out the answer as it would have been showing up the presenter. It is a great relevant ice breaker...if talking to insurance folks is your thing.

 
Just came back from a party - 25 people in the room - all very successful, college educated. One person a Doctor, another a CPA, and one person who worked in the West Wing of the White House as an intern two summers ago - writing portions of Obama's speeches. Not one single person knew the answer. Common knowledge indeed. I think we all know who's full of #### here.
Just curious, what kind of party do you attend that you know everyone graduated from college? I guess you were not allowed to bring a guest? Certainly not a social thing, right?

 
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Where math really gets weird is when it comes to probabilities with pairing. For instance, what is the probability that two people have the same birthday. There are 365 possible birthdays, so you might think you need 183 people in a room for there to be a 50/50 chance that two people have the same birthday. In reality, you only need 23. Yup, if you have a room full of 23 people there is a greater than 50/50 chance that two people in the room have the same birthday. I asked this question once to a room full of actuaries and nobody got it right.
This is common knowledge. No way you asked anyone prepping for the P1, let alone an actual actuary that missed that.
LOL. Common knowledge? Go the nearest mall and ask 100 people how many people you need in a room for the odds to be 50/50 that two people have the same birthday and see how many say 23. I guarantee you less than 5% will get it right. I use it as a regular ice breaker in presentations I do and people never get it right.
What are you? A regional manager at McDonald's?
Not a clueless know-it-all like you. I went to a fancy Ivy League school full of dumb smart people like you. Get in touch with the real world my friend. You might learn something new something interesting.
Further proof that it's not who you know it's who you blow.Just admit it. You tried to drop some BS hoping the rest of the board is more ignorant than you are.

SMH. Room full of actuaries... :lmao:
Ok blowhard. Just look at it this way - I gave you an opportunity to share with the rest of a football message board what a mathematical genius you are. So much so that you think the info I posted is "common knowledge". That right there shows how completely out of touch you are.Once again, take a trip outside, get some fresh air, and interact with the common man. You might find you're a lot less special than you fancy yourself to be.
It is fairly well known: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_problem

 
FatUncleJerryBuss said:
Just came back from a party - 25 people in the room - all very successful, college educated. One person a Doctor, another a CPA, and one person who worked in the West Wing of the White House as an intern two summers ago - writing portions of Obama's speeches. Not one single person knew the answer. Common knowledge indeed. I think we all know who's full of #### here.
Just curious, what kind of party do you attend that you know everyone graduated from college? I guess you were not allowed to bring a guest? Certainly not a social thing, right?
Was this you lame attempt at comedy Fatty? Keep trying bro.
 
Leroy Hoard said:
It was 50/50 that this thread was gonna suck.
lol
You kidding? It was a 100% lock. Anytime you've got actuaries opining on what is "common knowledge" it's guaranteed to be an exercise in futility. It's like we say in insurance circles, you can sure tell an actuary but you can't tell them much.
 
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FatUncleJerryBuss said:
Just came back from a party - 25 people in the room - all very successful, college educated. One person a Doctor, another a CPA, and one person who worked in the West Wing of the White House as an intern two summers ago - writing portions of Obama's speeches. Not one single person knew the answer. Common knowledge indeed. I think we all know who's full of #### here.
Just curious, what kind of party do you attend that you know everyone graduated from college? I guess you were not allowed to bring a guest? Certainly not a social thing, right?
Was this you lame attempt at comedy Fatty? Keep trying bro.
I just wanted to know how you had such intimate knowledge of all 25 people at a party? I think you are just making crap up personally but to each his own.

 
Two people are flying in a hot air balloon and realize they are lost. They see a man on the ground, so they navigate the balloon to where they can speak to him. They yell to him, “Can you help us – we’re lost.” The man on the ground replies, “You’re in a hot air balloon, about two hundred feet off the ground.”

One of the people in the balloon replies to the man on the ground, “You must be an actuary. You gave us information that is accurate, but completely useless.” The actuary on the ground yells to the people in the balloon, “you must be in marketing.”

They yell back, “yes, how did you know?” The actuary says,” well, you’re in the same situation you were in before you talked to me, but now it’s my fault.”

 
FatUncleJerryBuss said:
Just came back from a party - 25 people in the room - all very successful, college educated. One person a Doctor, another a CPA, and one person who worked in the West Wing of the White House as an intern two summers ago - writing portions of Obama's speeches. Not one single person knew the answer. Common knowledge indeed. I think we all know who's full of #### here.
Just curious, what kind of party do you attend that you know everyone graduated from college? I guess you were not allowed to bring a guest? Certainly not a social thing, right?
Was this you lame attempt at comedy Fatty? Keep trying bro.
I just wanted to know how you had such intimate knowledge of all 25 people at a party? I think you are just making crap up personally but to each his own.
Oh, apologies. Thought you were being an ### like everyone else in here. It was a family party.
 
Two people are flying in a hot air balloon and realize they are lost. They see a man on the ground, so they navigate the balloon to where they can speak to him. They yell to him, Can you help us were lost. The man on the ground replies, Youre in a hot air balloon, about two hundred feet off the ground.

One of the people in the balloon replies to the man on the ground, You must be an actuary. You gave us information that is accurate, but completely useless. The actuary on the ground yells to the people in the balloon, you must be in marketing.

They yell back, yes, how did you know? The actuary says, well, youre in the same situation you were in before you talked to me, but now its my fault.
Ha. Pretty good Leroy.An actuary and a farmer were traveling by train. When they passed a flock of sheep in a meadow, the actuary said, There are 1,248 sheep

out there. The farmer replied, Amazing. By chance, I know the owner, and the figure is absolutely correct. How did you count them so

quickly? The actuary answered, Easy, I just counted the number of legs and divided by four.

 
FatUncleJerryBuss said:
Just came back from a party - 25 people in the room - all very successful, college educated. One person a Doctor, another a CPA, and one person who worked in the West Wing of the White House as an intern two summers ago - writing portions of Obama's speeches. Not one single person knew the answer. Common knowledge indeed. I think we all know who's full of #### here.
Just curious, what kind of party do you attend that you know everyone graduated from college? I guess you were not allowed to bring a guest? Certainly not a social thing, right?
Was this you lame attempt at comedy Fatty? Keep trying bro.
I just wanted to know how you had such intimate knowledge of all 25 people at a party? I think you are just making crap up personally but to each his own.
Oh, apologies. Thought you were being an ### like everyone else in here. It was a family party.
Now that makes sense.

 

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