purestrength
Footballguy
Any word on Ball & Hillman tonight? I'm at work.
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Broncos RB. (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Eminence
- Start date
moleculo
Footballguy
Hillman fumbled twice, once on the goal line. Ball had a nice run where he knocked two defenders on their keisters. Ball also lined up wide once, drew a PI call on 3rd down.
No one standing out, really.
I Love Your Fantasy Team
Footballguy
Most importantly, Ball missed a block on the one play he's had pass-pro responsibility. Sent Manning running.
That's what will keep him off the field, not Hillman.
That's what will keep him off the field, not Hillman.
Kenny Powers
Footballguy
I will not touch Hillman. Not only did he not look impressive despite DEN clearly favoring him, but he fumbles twice.
Despite this offense being so good, I'll probably just be avoiding this whole RB situation unless its for Moreno late.
Despite this offense being so good, I'll probably just be avoiding this whole RB situation unless its for Moreno late.
purestrength
Footballguy
Sounds like I shouldn't give up on Moreno yet, if he can get healthy in the next few days.
for real. I don't understand why Knowshon is nowhere to be seen... still injured, or is he doing awful in camp or something (unlikely)?
purestrength
Footballguy
It sounds like Moreno's latest injury is relatively minor, so I'm hoping (as a Broncos fan and FF owner) he gets a chance to shine with the 1s next weekend.
bonesman
Footballguy
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
ball still looks hesitant and tentative at times, though he did have one nice run as mentioned...
ball just looks noticeably bigger than hillman (who is admittedly faster than ball), so assuming he can become more decisive and play faster as he learns offense, he has that going for him...
hillman is still going to be undersized...
kind of like the possibly apocraphyl winston churchill remark, when told by a woman he was a drunk...
ball just looks noticeably bigger than hillman (who is admittedly faster than ball), so assuming he can become more decisive and play faster as he learns offense, he has that going for him...
hillman is still going to be undersized...
kind of like the possibly apocraphyl winston churchill remark, when told by a woman he was a drunk...
Rhythmdoctor
Footballguy
This RB situation is a mess. Last week I was happily drafting Hillman late, now I think I'm avoiding at all costs.
moleculo
Footballguy
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
One
Not Allowed In Mexico
cheatsheetwarroom
Footballguy
Neither one looks great, but the two fumbled by Hillman are alarming. Could this be the factor that finally gives Bells the edge in this competition?
chickensoup
Footballguy
This RB situation screams stay away. Hillman comes at a discount, but you'll pretty much never be able to start him confidently. Ball will probably score more points, but at a low end RB2 level and will be TD dependent.
I'm staying away from both. Ball is not rosterable at his current ADP when guys with more defined roles are there for the taking (Lacy for instance) and Hillman will not likely give you startable weeks unless Ball gets injured.
This is basically Stewart/DWill minus the fact that both could be RB1s if they were on different teams. As a matter if fact if Cecil wasn't attending camps and didn't have the Hillman man crush most people here would just stay away from both and call it a day because its the rational thing to do.
I'm staying away from both. Ball is not rosterable at his current ADP when guys with more defined roles are there for the taking (Lacy for instance) and Hillman will not likely give you startable weeks unless Ball gets injured.
This is basically Stewart/DWill minus the fact that both could be RB1s if they were on different teams. As a matter if fact if Cecil wasn't attending camps and didn't have the Hillman man crush most people here would just stay away from both and call it a day because its the rational thing to do.
One
Not Allowed In Mexico
This.
It blows me away that some in the fantasy community haven't figured this out yet with rookies (ADP: 45 overall). We're always giddy with excitement for the new kids, even though they rarely work out in this type of situation.
Rooks who can't block for stud QBs in passing offenses (Peyton Manning, nonetheless) won't see the field in a meaningful role. It's not about how good Hillman is, he stinks. It's how quickly they trust Ball knowing the offense and protecting Manning. Says a lot when a rook gets into a preseason game and every play he's in is either a designed run-play or a route. Ball was given one chance at pass pro and he whiffed. If Ball doesn't pick it up, Hillman will remain #1 and some people will remain clueless as to why Ball isn't playing a meaningful role. Ala David WIlson last season he'll only see the field to kill clock, run a route or an obvious running play. Wouldn't surprise me to see Moreno get involved either.
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Sudoku_in_the_Bathtub
Footballguy
Ball will have to learn to improve in pass pro (or Moreno will be seeing more time)
Hillman will never be a between the tackles guy. Ever. That's the noticeable difference to me between him and Ball. Hillman is much quicker but Ball will just hit the hole. The quickness means nothing when you're dancing behind the line.
Hillman will never be a between the tackles guy. Ever. That's the noticeable difference to me between him and Ball. Hillman is much quicker but Ball will just hit the hole. The quickness means nothing when you're dancing behind the line.
Shutout
Footballguy
5-6 weeks into the season this will be moreno's job if he can stay healthy.
For all the things being raved about hillman, I just don't see it on the field. I guess maybe, relatively speaking, comparing him to ball, he looks better but as a RB on the field there is nothing to get excited about.
When I see manning running latterally, I know someone blew it. Ball on the field both times. This is not the way to earn the important minutes.
So, that leaves us back to " I haven't seen anything from these guys the whole world has said is the clear competition that is Bette than what I actually saw in games from Moreno and McGahee last year".
For all the things being raved about hillman, I just don't see it on the field. I guess maybe, relatively speaking, comparing him to ball, he looks better but as a RB on the field there is nothing to get excited about.
When I see manning running latterally, I know someone blew it. Ball on the field both times. This is not the way to earn the important minutes.
So, that leaves us back to " I haven't seen anything from these guys the whole world has said is the clear competition that is Bette than what I actually saw in games from Moreno and McGahee last year".
LuckyOne
Footballguy
It seems like Hillman will continue to struggle inside. Ball is confused in pass protection and is struggling running in the pros. Unfortunately, Fox is very stubborn. A great coach like Belichick succeeds because he's willing to acknowledge he's wrong and change things. I think we're stuck with a struggling running game while last year's late season success story sits on the sidelines. I was disappointed when Denver passed over Lacy for Ball. Now, I just wish our coach would adapt. BTW, McGahee is still looking for work.
There is no question at all that if Healthy (And that is a big if) that Moreno will be the starting running back.
He was the starter over Hillman last year when Mcghee went down and he did a great job.
I actually recall but I cant find anything ...that Peyton was highly endorsing Moreno last season when Mcghee got injured.
This is the order of Denver RB to own
Moreno - Positives - Experienced, solid (not spectacular) great pass blocker and Peyton on his side. Negatives - He is often injured
Ball - Postives - High Draft Pick great college career has talent and potential. Negatives - Not that impressive, doesnt look ready and cant pass protect.
Hillman - Postives - Quickness ? Negatives - Small, No power, can't pass block (may have improved), Fumbles - hasnt done anything impressive - all hype
He was the starter over Hillman last year when Mcghee went down and he did a great job.
I actually recall but I cant find anything ...that Peyton was highly endorsing Moreno last season when Mcghee got injured.
This is the order of Denver RB to own
Moreno - Positives - Experienced, solid (not spectacular) great pass blocker and Peyton on his side. Negatives - He is often injured
Ball - Postives - High Draft Pick great college career has talent and potential. Negatives - Not that impressive, doesnt look ready and cant pass protect.
Hillman - Postives - Quickness ? Negatives - Small, No power, can't pass block (may have improved), Fumbles - hasnt done anything impressive - all hype
Buffaloes
Footballguy
Denver is in trouble if that's the case.
I think Moreno gets more carries than first anticipated to begin the season as Ball eventually settles in. What the FO decides to do with CJ Anderson will be telling as well. If they've seen enough to think he can have a role, they may keep him on the active 53 despite the injury.
The RB situation is disappointing at this point though.
Saint
Footballguy
Before we anoint Moreno, I think we need to see him play after his injuries. As I recall, Denver was NOT that impressive running the ball last year. They ranked 19th in rushing and the leading runningback was McGahee, not Moreno. As a matter of fact, if you go purely on statistics, Hillman and Moreno performed about the same last year.
Moreno had 138 rushes for 525 yards (3.8 avg) and 21 receptions for 167 yards (8.0 avg). Hillman had 85 rushes for 330 yds (3.9 avg) and 10 receptions for 62 yards (6.2 avg). Moreno had only 1 fumble in the games he played last year, and Hillman had 2 fumbles. Moreno is hitting his 5th year (age 26-27) and Hillman is hitting his 2nd year (age 21-22).
The fact is, Hillman has performed relatively well in his pass blocking assignments and has moved up the depth charts with Moreno injured. Ball has struggled in pass blocking, and if you can't pass block, you won't play. Now, I am not anointing Hillman either as his two fumbles were heinous last night, but the reality is he is probably still ahead of Ball and is the play until Moreno gets on the field. In addition, if Denver is running the up-tempo offense, then Hillman/Moreno are the plays. Hillman's ADP will drop after last night's game, which is fine for me. I would argue that Denver knows what they have in Moreno, and may be willing to roll the dice on Hillman to see what they have there moreso than Moreno. At worst, this is shaping up to be a RBBC in Denver. At best, you can get some solid RB plays for flex out of a 10/11 ADP spot.
Moreno had 138 rushes for 525 yards (3.8 avg) and 21 receptions for 167 yards (8.0 avg). Hillman had 85 rushes for 330 yds (3.9 avg) and 10 receptions for 62 yards (6.2 avg). Moreno had only 1 fumble in the games he played last year, and Hillman had 2 fumbles. Moreno is hitting his 5th year (age 26-27) and Hillman is hitting his 2nd year (age 21-22).
The fact is, Hillman has performed relatively well in his pass blocking assignments and has moved up the depth charts with Moreno injured. Ball has struggled in pass blocking, and if you can't pass block, you won't play. Now, I am not anointing Hillman either as his two fumbles were heinous last night, but the reality is he is probably still ahead of Ball and is the play until Moreno gets on the field. In addition, if Denver is running the up-tempo offense, then Hillman/Moreno are the plays. Hillman's ADP will drop after last night's game, which is fine for me. I would argue that Denver knows what they have in Moreno, and may be willing to roll the dice on Hillman to see what they have there moreso than Moreno. At worst, this is shaping up to be a RBBC in Denver. At best, you can get some solid RB plays for flex out of a 10/11 ADP spot.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
thanx, faust...
title refers to blocking difficulties, often an issue for young RBs, but with an older, less mobile, super bowl caliber QB, could be an obstacle to expanded playing time until he gets that cleaned up and resolved...
as interesting to me was breakdown of ball and hillman's respective rushing numbers... everything from cec's camp reports has been glowingly positive on hillman, and bleak/grim on ball front... ball impressed me more than hillman in second preseason game, especially running inside, so it was good to see that confirmed by the numbers...
hillman's disastrous goal line fumble and 100+ yard return TD has to have fox rethinking the decision to not have ball in...
business excerpt from linked article...
"At 5-10, 215-pounds, Ball has the power to eventually serve as the bell-cow back in Denver. He averaged 4.67 yards on his six attempts of the first half. Hillman, on the other hand, averaged just 2.6 yards on 13 attempts. Veteran Lance Ball (no relation) took over in the second half.
In his limited action, the rookie flashed the same combination of vision and burst out of his cuts that led to his dominance at the collegiate level. As long as the Broncos are going to be trotting out Manning at quarterback, however, the running back will need to improve significantly in the passing game if he is to play the significant role most anticipated following his second-round selection."
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purestrength
Footballguy
I hope Moreno is healthy enough to play next weekend.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
That fumble by Hillman at the goal line was definitely a disaster. Hold on to the ball and it was an easy score.
Buffaloes
Footballguy
I'm not sure about that unless he had a really impressive game pass blocking against Seattle.
that's an honest question too because I haven't seen the Seattle game. Even if Hillman has improved in the pass block game, I honestly doubt he's anywhere near Moreno's proficiency. Moreno is a more than solid pass blocker. Either way, I don't see Hillman as an every-down RB. Reminds me a bit of a faster Quentin Griffin. I have Hillman in a dynasty league, but I just don't see it with him. I see a COP scat back.
Shutout
Footballguy
Well I guess if they were both about the same last year then the Broncos should probably go with the one that protects Peyton manning better.
Hooper31
Footballguy
To be fair to Hillman and Ball, they were playing in Seattle last night. It was a bit weird how intense the game was through the first half. Both Mortensen and Jeremiah commented on twitter that if felt more like a playoff game instead of a preseason game. There was some serious hitting going on by Seattle's defense. I don't think Moreno would have done any better.
skinny post
Footballguy
I haven't read through all the posts but it seems to me that the issue with the Denver RB's has more to do with the Offensive line and the injuries to the lineman. From looking at the stats seems neither Hillman or Ball can run the ball so I am getting more concerned about the ability of the line to protect Manning. Any more losses on that line and Manning's health could be a huge concern. I have Hillman in dynasty and I won't draft Ball even though I could...seems like a situation to avoid if possible. Typically, the RB Denver is a very good position to own but with losses on the oline I am thinking it is an avoid.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
i meant to say this, reminder much appreciated...
SEA and SF were two best defenses in NFL in 2012, and i'm guessing would be favored to repeat in 2013 as well...
a lot of RBs won't look good against SEA this year... wagner in particular looks like a future serial pro bowler... and that is saying a lot... NFC West may have one of best divisional collections of MLB/ILB talent in league history - also all pros willis & bowman, pro bowl caliber washington in ARI, and borderline pro bowler laurinaitis...
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Saint
Footballguy
Absolutely agree with this. Denver will win on Manning's ability, not the run. While I like Ball's prospects, I just am having a hard time seeing it this year. I'm not saying Hillman is better than Moreno, rather I am saying, I want to see Moreno on the field and protecting Manning first and foremost. After that, play the guy with the best blocking ability.
Whoever does that the best, that's the Denver RB to have. Right now I say it's between Hillman and Moreno, with a slight edge to Hillman as Moreno hasn't been out there.
purestrength
Footballguy
Moreno returned to practice this week. For the Broncos' sake (and Peyton Manning's neck), I hope they give him a chance to run with the 1s Saturday against St. Louis.
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
I think Hillman will start the season as the primary ball carrier, only because he knows the offense and Peyton's complicated line calls, and Ball is still acclimating. Hillman is going way late (13th round) and is an afterthought in drafts. Ball is going in the 5th and 6th. I like Hillman's value as an early sell high candidate if he can produce some nominal starters stats. Dump him before he loses his job.
Anyone who thinks Hillman is going to start and be the primary ball carrier is as delluisional as the Andre Brown crack heads.
Hillman will be 3rd behind a healthy Moreno and Ball ...it's so f...ing obvious.
The Associated Press suggests Knowshon Moreno "could very well end up getting significant snaps" if Montee Ball and Ronnie Hillman continue to make errors in camp and preseason games. Hillman lost a goal-line fumble in the second preseason game that "infuriated" OC Adam Gase, and has been completely ineffective as a ball carrier. Ball has been the better runner, but got Peyton Manning slammed with a blown blitz pickup. Gase praised Moreno's leadership and "ability in pass protection to explain some things" to the younger backs. Moreno is very much worth a late-round fantasy flier. He could have a bigger role than most think.
I'm starting to realize that it's my ability to see the forest through the trees that makes me so damned good at fantasy football.
It's a f...ng gift that I had been taking for granted.
I used to think it was luck ... Thank you all for bringing this "gift" to light !!!
Hillman will be 3rd behind a healthy Moreno and Ball ...it's so f...ing obvious.
The Associated Press suggests Knowshon Moreno "could very well end up getting significant snaps" if Montee Ball and Ronnie Hillman continue to make errors in camp and preseason games. Hillman lost a goal-line fumble in the second preseason game that "infuriated" OC Adam Gase, and has been completely ineffective as a ball carrier. Ball has been the better runner, but got Peyton Manning slammed with a blown blitz pickup. Gase praised Moreno's leadership and "ability in pass protection to explain some things" to the younger backs. Moreno is very much worth a late-round fantasy flier. He could have a bigger role than most think.
I'm starting to realize that it's my ability to see the forest through the trees that makes me so damned good at fantasy football.
It's a f...ng gift that I had been taking for granted.
I used to think it was luck ... Thank you all for bringing this "gift" to light !!!
ShaHBucks
Footballguy
Is there a bad post emoticon anywhere?
Buffaloes
Footballguy
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purestrength
Footballguy
I'm still hoping the starter is Moreno for multiple reasons, but nobody "knows" anything in this situation yet. The Rams game may put one of the three on top.
bostonfred
Footballguy
Hillman started the game, had a couple nice plays. Ball took over on third down, made a nice blitz pickup. Ball slipped on a run behind the line of scrimmage and also had a couple of no chance plays where he got stuffed behind the line of scrimmage, but has looked better than advertised in pass pro and especially the receiving game. Hillman has had more success as a runner so far, but on a wheel route identical to the one where ball got 10+, hillman was stopped two yards short of the first round because ball was able to quickly turn around and square, and hillman wasnt.
After a quarter of play, I would say hillman remains the starter headed into the season, but these guys will continue to split. Anyone disagree so far?
After a quarter of play, I would say hillman remains the starter headed into the season, but these guys will continue to split. Anyone disagree so far?
purestrength
Footballguy
Uh oh.
