Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
These situations have a way of figuring themselves out. Hillman is taking care of it.
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Broncos RB. (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Eminence
- Start date
bostonfred
Footballguy
Hillman back in after the fumble, though.
bostonfred
Footballguy
But didn't touch the ball, and then ball comes in
LuckyOne
Footballguy
We keep seeing trouble from Hillman and Ball. In the NFL, there are only a few AP type running backs that can dominate. Denver needs a RB that can 1) Protect Manning 2) Run Inside 3) Hold on to the ball. Moreno is that guy. He's not flashy, he's not a stud, but if he's healthy he's everything Denver needs without many knocks. I've been drafting Moreno on his potential, unfortunately I think Fox is too stubborn to acknowledge he was wrong about the other backs.
bostonfred
Footballguy
Ball hit before the handoff again. Nice no commit in pass pro on the third down pass, then gets hit behind the line yet again, and drops an easy gainer on a red zone reception.
Area51Inhabitant
Footballguy
I'm definitely buying on Moreno.
bostonfred
Footballguy
Ball really hasn't gotten anything done on the ground tonight, and hillman had that horrible fumbl Strangely, hillman took more carries up the gut than ball tonight, and looked pretty good doing it. Ball hasn't gotten around the corner on the east west stuff and ends up going south but looks decent catching the ball and going north.
ffldrew
Footballguy
ffldrew
Footballguy
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
It just hit me what this situation reminds me of. Remember when the Bears drafted Cedric Benson, and everyone wanted the new toy on the field? But he was terrible in pass pro, he ran like a {meow} and his teammates reportedly hated him. Meanwhile, ol' reliable Thomas Jones just kept chugging along and getting it done after everyone kicked dirt on him.
purestrength
Footballguy
I'll say it: Fox is an idiot if he doesn't give Moreno at least a chance to start.
moleculo
Footballguy
let me say this - I don't know that I've ever seen Hillman beat someone in the open-field or thru the line, whether it be via juke, run him over, or pure speed. I don't think I've ever seen him create anything beyond exactly what the blocking game him.
In this drive alone, I've seen both Moreno and Ball do this.
In this drive alone, I've seen both Moreno and Ball do this.
bostonfred
Footballguy
Ball with runs of 11, 4 and 4 before the half, and a run of 5 to start the third quarter. Knowshon comes in briefly before the half and catches a ball for 17.
Manning discusses montee and hillman at halftime, says they did some good things and need to get better, which is meaningless, except that he didn't mention knowshon at all.
Ball has made some mistakes running the ball, including one where he slipped, two where I thought he danced a step too much, and one where he ran into his own lineman on a four yard gain. But he did everything else pretty well, including playing in the hurryup, selling play fakes and of course pass protection. He got terrible blocking running behind the backup left tackle but I think he looked decent overall. 11 carries for 37 yards as I write this.
Knowshon has three catches, all for good gains.
Ball comes back in the game when they get to the ten, two runs for good gains bringing them to the one, and on third down he runs it in with good power behind hester.
Manning discusses montee and hillman at halftime, says they did some good things and need to get better, which is meaningless, except that he didn't mention knowshon at all.
Ball has made some mistakes running the ball, including one where he slipped, two where I thought he danced a step too much, and one where he ran into his own lineman on a four yard gain. But he did everything else pretty well, including playing in the hurryup, selling play fakes and of course pass protection. He got terrible blocking running behind the backup left tackle but I think he looked decent overall. 11 carries for 37 yards as I write this.
Knowshon has three catches, all for good gains.
Ball comes back in the game when they get to the ten, two runs for good gains bringing them to the one, and on third down he runs it in with good power behind hester.
Riffraff
Footballguy
LuckyOne
Footballguy
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
I get the feeling that it doesn't matter who is the starting RB for Denver anymore. They will be throwing it a ton.
Mister CIA
Footballguy
You've posted this in two different threads. What is your opinion on the Denver RBs going into week 1?
bostonfred
Footballguy
Looking at this situation right now, I think there will be a committee of sorts, but hillman has lost ground, moreno has gained a little but didn't even come into the game until 28 minutes had gone by, and ball carried himself well enough that he is still my favorite to lead the team in yards, carries, and certainly tds by the end of the year. Knowshon has gone from barely draftable to being worth a rb4 or rb5 flier, and hillman has lost most of the ground he had gained as a possible starting back, looking more like the change of pace guy that many thought he would be.
Hillman owners will likely say that the fumble sucked but ball sucked worse at running, but while hillman has looked good running the ball, he hasn't looked good enough to make fox overlook the fumbles. Knowshon owners will likely say that moreno looked better catching the ball and is the better all around back, but he was treated as an afterthought in this game until the very end of the first half, and only saw action against prevent and second string defenses. He may have earned his way back into the mix, but I doubt he's taken over as starter.
Ball is probably still being overdrafted, but he looks like he could get 1100 yards and 10 tds pretty easily to me.
Hillman owners will likely say that the fumble sucked but ball sucked worse at running, but while hillman has looked good running the ball, he hasn't looked good enough to make fox overlook the fumbles. Knowshon owners will likely say that moreno looked better catching the ball and is the better all around back, but he was treated as an afterthought in this game until the very end of the first half, and only saw action against prevent and second string defenses. He may have earned his way back into the mix, but I doubt he's taken over as starter.
Ball is probably still being overdrafted, but he looks like he could get 1100 yards and 10 tds pretty easily to me.
Riffraff
Footballguy
People see what they want to see.
I think it's a committee. So far, none of them look like game changers.
Ball was drafted to play the big back role, making both Moreno and McGahee expendable. Assuming progress made by the end of the season, I think Ball will get the first 2 downs with Hillman the COP and 3rd down back.
Moreno only sniffs playing time if these guys keep screwing up, but will lose the job quickly once the younger guys get better. Don't think Moreno plays special teams, so he'd probably be inactive most weeks. It could be a feel good story, but he's been in the league 4 years being inactive or unhealthy for stretches at a time.
Week 1, Hillman starts while Ball learns to play pro football. Of course, if Hillman fumbles in the regular season, he just might get the doghouse that Moreno was living in last year (also due to fumbling). Though Hillman may get more of a leash since he's 21 and Moreno was 25. Young guys get 2nd chances to get better.
From what I see ball is the clear lead running back. They gave hillman the shot but he lacks the short area strength and quickness to get extra yards. Hillman could likely be the 3DRB but with those fumbles I wouldn't even think about it. Unless ball starts making bigger mistakes than hillman, ball should start. If ball had those 2 fumbles he would clearly be 3rd string.
Moreno wasn't in the doghouse last year.. He wasn't 100% healed from his previous knee injury early on.
Riffraff
Footballguy
Chaka
Footballguy
Actually Fox's history suggests that he favors the proven and reliable, if unflashy, vet over younger flashier backs.
And I don't think either Hillman or Ball look all that flashy to begin with.
Moreno and McGhee were so similar it did not make sense to have them both activ at the same time. McGhee was more experienced and a bit more talented so He got the nod over Moreno.
When McGhee went down everyone jumped all over Hillman ... Moreno got the Job and looked like Mcghee's twin and the offense did not miss a beat.
The reason why Moreno is not starting and getting the touches in preseason is obvious ... He's coming back from injuries and Denver already knows what they have in him.
They are trying to find out what they have in Hillman and I dont think they are liking it. He has statistically been the worst of the 3 backs and this doesn't even take into account his 3 fumbles and poor pass protection ...so why exactly would they go with Hillman?
bostonfred
Footballguy
All of the vets fox played had looked good. They just had a second young guy who also looked good.Moreno did not look good until the second half of last season. Before that, fox was not inclined to start him or even activate him on game day. Elway not only drafted ball and compared him to terrell davis, but discussed the choice as though it was between ball and lacy, not ball and some other non rb position. Moreover, he had a vet who looked good in mcgahee, and let him go.
Is it possible that moreno looked so good that he earned the job? Well, he came in 28 minutes into the game and had a couple nice catches. He may have moved up by default with hillmans fumble and ball's miscues, but ball showed some good things when he was in there. The broncos radio announcers noted that moreno came in in the two minute drill because he was their best pass protector and third down back, which is consistent with the role that people have speculated for him in the past. He caught several nice passes against the second team d, but had plenty of room to run on all of them so its hard to say whether coaches will give him more credit for that than ball getting stuffed behind the line of scrimmage running left when clady was out and the defense was hitting him before he even got the ball.
I thought moreno was out of the running headed into last night. Based on his usage, it looks like fox did too. But if the coaches bench hillman for yet another big fumble, or decide ball needs more seasoning, maybe he does have a shot.
I think ball did well in pass protection, and he caught a couple passes and looked good doing it. He also dropped a red zone pass, slipped on a cut and turned a five yard run into a one or two yarder, and danced on a run when the defenders were behind the los. Its up to fox whether those things looked fixable.
The good news for ball is that hillman didn't touch the ball again after the fumble. He came in for one play, but it was a pass, and then ball came in. And they ran ball three straight times in the three minute drill, for 11, 4 and 4. Then at the start of the third, when moreno had been the rb between the 20s, ball came back in as soon as they got to the 10. He responded with three straight runs, for 5, 4 and then a goal line score on third and goal from the one. It wasn't against the ones, but it was an encouraging series for the presumed goal line back.
I don't think anyone knows what will happen with hillman after the fumble. And morenos role probably depends on the answer to that question. But it sure looks like ball will be a part of whatever committee they end up with.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
I agree with this. With Moreno coming back from an injury, there is no need to overuse since, like you said, they already know what they have in him. The Broncos need a RB who will a )protect Manning, and b) not turn the ball over. Moreno is likely to do the best job in those two regards, so I will be surprised if he doesn't see a lot of playing time once the season begins.
HurryUpSundays
Footballguy
Rotoworld now recommending grabbing Moreno in all formats.
I could see Ball eventually taking over. But Hillman? Not that good and doesnt fit Denvers RB mold ... I don't get the luv.
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
How exactly did Moreno provide a seamless fit when McGahee went down? Moreno averaged 3.8 ypc in an offense with wider running lanes due to the strength of the passing game. That's below the Mendoza line for NFL starting RBs and well under 1/2 a yd less than McGahee was averaging.
Moreno is what he always had been - a COP RB who isn't effective between the tackles but is a good receiver and mismatch in space as well as a very strong pass protector.
I see the reason DEN has been bringing Ball along slowly and letting the speed and complexity of the DEN O catch up to him is that he offers what no other back on DEN does - power between the tackles and keeping LBs honest while being capable of playing 3 downs in a hurry up O.
It seems pretty obvious to me that the game is finally starting to slow down for Ball. His pass protection had improved significantly and we're starting to see him run with confidence and authority. He showed that slick little lateral slide of his on the TD drive when the scripted hole was blocked, and on the TD he showed his classic low pad level/lean/churn when the hole was filled by a LB and he easily powered his way in.
Moreno is going to put Hillman and his clear fumbling issue on the bench, IMO. But Ball is the guy DEN wants to eat up 18 to 20 carries a game and make Ds play more honestly in the middle of the field and allow Welker and the TEs to work.
Moreno will still get his time, IMO, but it seems odd that people here are simply ignoring that DEN is using Ball as their power back and that he's getting plenty of work with the 1st team, and that no one on the DEN staff is giving up on him just the opposite - they keep feeding him in all situations and as a result he is progressing pretty well on his learning curve.
I know Moreno owners are hoping for him to take on the lead back role, just like Hillman owners were. But the evidence of what we have seen so far just doesn't support that going into week 4 PS.
Moreno is what he always had been - a COP RB who isn't effective between the tackles but is a good receiver and mismatch in space as well as a very strong pass protector.
I see the reason DEN has been bringing Ball along slowly and letting the speed and complexity of the DEN O catch up to him is that he offers what no other back on DEN does - power between the tackles and keeping LBs honest while being capable of playing 3 downs in a hurry up O.
It seems pretty obvious to me that the game is finally starting to slow down for Ball. His pass protection had improved significantly and we're starting to see him run with confidence and authority. He showed that slick little lateral slide of his on the TD drive when the scripted hole was blocked, and on the TD he showed his classic low pad level/lean/churn when the hole was filled by a LB and he easily powered his way in.
Moreno is going to put Hillman and his clear fumbling issue on the bench, IMO. But Ball is the guy DEN wants to eat up 18 to 20 carries a game and make Ds play more honestly in the middle of the field and allow Welker and the TEs to work.
Moreno will still get his time, IMO, but it seems odd that people here are simply ignoring that DEN is using Ball as their power back and that he's getting plenty of work with the 1st team, and that no one on the DEN staff is giving up on him just the opposite - they keep feeding him in all situations and as a result he is progressing pretty well on his learning curve.
I know Moreno owners are hoping for him to take on the lead back role, just like Hillman owners were. But the evidence of what we have seen so far just doesn't support that going into week 4 PS.
Chaka
Footballguy
Moreno looked good last year. Not flashy but consistent and, most importantly, reliable in all phases of the game.
I don't think the preseason usage is indicative of anything other than seeing what the young guys are capable of against less complicated defenses. And I think that is something very important to consider going into the season when the defenses really start getting creative. I think Hillman is effectively done due to the fumbles but the door is not closed on Montee. If he proves reliable in identifying and picking up blitzes he could be a real factor this season but I don't think, given Fox's history and Knowshon's reliability, that Denver is going to give either Ball or Hillman the opportunity to prove that point at the beginning of the season.
Going into the season I think it will be Moreno's job and if Ball flashes consistently that situation may flip over time.
ponchsox
Footballguy
The Denver Post believes Ronnie Hillman is the "biggest mess," and the Broncos "cannot" go into the season with him as the starter.
For the second straight preseason game, Hillman lost a fumble that resulted in a touchdown for the opponent's defense. Beat writer Mike Kiszla thinks the Broncos could be forced to start Knowshon Moreno Week 1 for the simple reason that he can protect Peyton Manning and hold onto the football. Montee Ball was impressive in the dress rehearsal Saturday night, but his blitz pickup and pass-catching skills need work. Moreno needs to be owned in all formats.
For the second straight preseason game, Hillman lost a fumble that resulted in a touchdown for the opponent's defense. Beat writer Mike Kiszla thinks the Broncos could be forced to start Knowshon Moreno Week 1 for the simple reason that he can protect Peyton Manning and hold onto the football. Montee Ball was impressive in the dress rehearsal Saturday night, but his blitz pickup and pass-catching skills need work. Moreno needs to be owned in all formats.
Shockingly, Fox says Hillman's fumble last night hasn't changed his status. I find that hard to believe, but crap like this is what makes the RB position at Denver so uncertain.
DENVER -- Folks may not know for sure until the regular-season opener if second-year running back Ronnie Hillman has lost his hold on the starting job, but after his second fumble in two games was returned for a touchdown Saturday night, Denver Broncos coach John Fox said Hillman had not lost any status.
Just that it all was another teaching moment. The 27-26 Broncos win over the Rams is likely Hillman's and the rest of the starters' last work of the preseason. Few, if any, of the regulars are expected to play in the preseason finale Thursday against Arizona.
“I still have great confidence,’’ Fox said of Hillman. “It’s something we worked very hard on last week, something we’ll work very hard on this week.
“I think the one this week was altogether different,’’ Fox added. “I personally think his progress was stopped otherwise he’s got to get on the ground faster or do a better job hanging on to the ball when a guy’s yanking on it late in the down.’’
http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/61420/hillman-testing-broncos-confidence
Hillman fumbled into the end zone in Seattle last week and the Seahawks' Brandon Browner returned it 106 yards for a touchdown. Saturday night, Hillman took a pass from Peyton Manning for 3 yards, but then in an effort to get a little more real estate turned his back to the defenders. As a result, when he fell to the ground the ball was exposed and Rams linebacker Alec Ogletree tore it loose. Ogletree then scooped up the ball and returned it 13 yards for a touchdown.
“It seemed like I was stopped for like 30 seconds,’’ Hillman said. “But I still fumbled it … I can’t do that.’’
“Every one of these things in a learning experience for these guys,’’ Fox said. “I have not lost confidence in him whatsoever.’’
Hillman finished with 34 yards on six carries – a 5.7-yard average – as the Broncos finished with 133 yards rushing overall. Rookie Montee Ball and Lance Ball each had a rushing touchdown in the game.
DENVER -- Folks may not know for sure until the regular-season opener if second-year running back Ronnie Hillman has lost his hold on the starting job, but after his second fumble in two games was returned for a touchdown Saturday night, Denver Broncos coach John Fox said Hillman had not lost any status.
Just that it all was another teaching moment. The 27-26 Broncos win over the Rams is likely Hillman's and the rest of the starters' last work of the preseason. Few, if any, of the regulars are expected to play in the preseason finale Thursday against Arizona.
“I still have great confidence,’’ Fox said of Hillman. “It’s something we worked very hard on last week, something we’ll work very hard on this week.
“I think the one this week was altogether different,’’ Fox added. “I personally think his progress was stopped otherwise he’s got to get on the ground faster or do a better job hanging on to the ball when a guy’s yanking on it late in the down.’’
http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/61420/hillman-testing-broncos-confidence
Hillman fumbled into the end zone in Seattle last week and the Seahawks' Brandon Browner returned it 106 yards for a touchdown. Saturday night, Hillman took a pass from Peyton Manning for 3 yards, but then in an effort to get a little more real estate turned his back to the defenders. As a result, when he fell to the ground the ball was exposed and Rams linebacker Alec Ogletree tore it loose. Ogletree then scooped up the ball and returned it 13 yards for a touchdown.
“It seemed like I was stopped for like 30 seconds,’’ Hillman said. “But I still fumbled it … I can’t do that.’’
“Every one of these things in a learning experience for these guys,’’ Fox said. “I have not lost confidence in him whatsoever.’’
Hillman finished with 34 yards on six carries – a 5.7-yard average – as the Broncos finished with 133 yards rushing overall. Rookie Montee Ball and Lance Ball each had a rushing touchdown in the game.
Avg is a silly thing to judge by and 3.8 (3.92 after McGhee went down) is not bad anyway.
They didnt change their game plan at all ... They continued to run the ball consistently (Moreno averaged 21 carries per game). They won every game that he started ... He was great receiving and most importantly he protected Peyton.
Agree Ball will be the guy but not until he can protect Peyton. You said he is much improved in pass protection but just last week he almost got Peyton killed.
I don't own anybody (haven't drafted yet) ... I wouldnt mind having either Moreno for the 1st half (small Investment) or Ball for the 2nd half (but I wouldnt use a high pick). Wouldn't touch Hillman with any pick
Buffaloes
Footballguy
I keep seeing this posted, but there was NO evidence that Moreno was still hurt or getting healthy when he was a healthy scratch all those games.
Once he took over for McGahee, though, he showed that he had made a lot of changes and looked like a different runner than in prior years.
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Ghost Rider
Footballguy
And let's not forget that the Broncos protection of Manning in the playoff loss to the Ravens wasn't nearly as good once Moreno left the game hurt. We can talk all we want about YPCs and all that jazz, but a RB who can protect Manning as well as Moreno can on pass plays is gonna get plenty of playing time. John Fox is not that stupid.
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ShaHBucks
Footballguy
Moreno ran hard, as usual, when I watch last season. I'd credit some of his low ypc to grinding out games. 6 of the games he started was won by 7+ points. I don't think he looked any different. His TD run vs Pitt was nice early in the season. You almost have to credit everything to Fox not liking Moreno. It's really a slap in the face that he's third on the dephtchart to a questionable rookie and a guy he outplayed a season ago while being the vet on the team. I think this might carry into the season.
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Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
I think Ball will be fine. Not many RBs are gonna come in and do everything perfectly from jump street. He's got a nice pedigree that you like to see. Solid college production. Of course, I thought Ron Dayne would be untackleable, so who knows. 
I am buying Moreno. Last year he took over in week 12 and was the seven highest scoring RB from week 12 to the end of the season in PPR format. I do not think he is an exceptional talent, buy he is in a great situation. He is going off the board at RB63 around pick 173. That is crazy. In that offense he certainly has RB2 upside. Just a case of Reward greatly outweighing risk.
Buffaloes
Footballguy
you don't think he looked different after he was reinserted to the starting lineup? I think every Bronco fan would disagree with that. He had a propensity for not finishing runs, for tripping over his own feet, for being way to impatient and running into the back of his OL right before a hole would open, for taking himself out of the game after an 8-yard run. Once he came back, just about all that was taken care of. His vision and his patience was matured and he looked like a completely different RB.
I think he'll have a large role to begin the season and I've already stated he's a prime 3rd-down RB. He hasn't showed that he can stay healthy, he's not an explosive playmaker, and the Broncos still struggled in short yardage with Moreno last year. Ball will likely be the hammer at the GL and his TD last night was vintage Monte Ball. Hillman will likely be a COP RB and Moreno will shuffle in and out of the lineup I'm sure. At this point, he's the best bang for your buck pick out of the 3. But he's not going to be a bellcow.
