Bye Bye Wildcat (1 Viewer)

[az_prof]

Gruden, who is a brilliant commentator, pointed out that it is not a gimmick and that basically by taking the QB off the field it gives you one more blocker and creates a mismatch for the defense.

Of course, you have to have an exceptional player to run it--a player with running back skills but the decision-making and the sure hands of a QB. You also need two really good running backs. Not too many teams have the personnel but I still say one of them is Oakland with Bush (high school QB) and McFadden (ran wildcat in college).

 

[Two Deep]

Why is anyone personally invested in throwing dirt on the Wildcat, anyway? I think I asked this question upthread, but never saw an answer.

Some people are just opposed to anything new and innovative. They want to snuff out anything they see as a threat to their old school mentality.

haven't we learned with this cell phone BS, people walking around with #### attached to their ear talking to themselves, smashing into #### because they are working their thumbs instead of the steering wheel and brakes, Yeah this new fangled #### is great. Give me a pocket passer and a great receiver and let her rip. Nothing more exciting then the bomb.

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

Why is anyone personally invested in throwing dirt on the Wildcat, anyway? I think I asked this question upthread, but never saw an answer.

Some people are just opposed to anything new and innovative. They want to snuff out anything they see as a threat to their old school mentality.

I originally posted this in a week last year when the wildcat was an unmitigated disaster across the league, including for the Dolphins. In that particular week it was negative plays and turnovers all around. Obviously this hasn't turned out to be the best prediction I ever made. To be fair to myself though, it is still crap when a lot of teams run it. The Dolphins are the only team I've seen that has consistent success with it. A few other teams get a little mileage out of it, but they aren't as dedicated to it as Miami and generally lack any kind of passing threat from it.

 

[zDragon]

Why is anyone personally invested in throwing dirt on the Wildcat, anyway? I think I asked this question upthread, but never saw an answer.

Some people are just opposed to anything new and innovative. They want to snuff out anything they see as a threat to their old school mentality.

Funny, the wild-cat is old school. Nothing new about it.

 

[mbuehner]

I'd be real careful with those stats. 327 plays is a small sample size, and worse because you have to control for short yardage and goalline situations where you may not see the Wildcat and where 2 yards may be enough. Miami ran 24 plays inside their opponents 5 yard line, and 24 with 1 or 2 yards to go (outside the opponents 5). They averaged 2.98 yards per play on those 48 plays (143 yards), but tallied touchdowns or 1st downs 31 our of 48 times. I'd be careful with THAT number because I'm not sure if and how often they run the wildcat in that situation, but assumedly less frequently than in the open field.Point being, 'base offense' is not a simple thing. You have to compare apples to apples.

Regardless of any of that, if a team is averaging 6.6 yards per attempt out of an offensive set, then that is an incredibly effective offensive set.

Depends. If i run a draw play on 3rd and 15+, i might average 10 yards a play. So what?

If you run a draw play on 3rd and 15, and you get 10 yards...you're averaging 1.667 yards per play. Because you ran three plays and gained a total of 5 yards. So actually, averaging 6.6 yards out of a set is indeed a seriously good average.

If you decide to invent scenarios I didn't say anything about... you can say whatever you want. I said AVERAGE 10 yards a play if you were to run the draw. Who cares if you can consistently run a sweet 10 yard draw play on 3rd and 15 but never get a first down? The statistic is deceiving.You can't judge the effectiveness of plays without a nod to situation. The wildcat is an open field formation, it needs to be compared with the other open field formations, apples to apples. I don't doubt the wildcat is still averaging more yards per play when that comparison is made for Miami, but its simply not the disparity that link pointed to. Thats why there are splits. Somebody needs to go back and find out when the wildcat gets run (between which yards, and on what downs) and compare the effectiveness on those plays.

 

[mbuehner]

Depends. If i run a draw play on 3rd and 15+, i might average 10 yards a play. So what?

Are you suggesting that the Wildcat is only used on 3rd and long? Because unless you are, I really fail to see your point.

See above. I was making an analogy- yards per play is a situationally relevant stat. What I am saying is the Wildcat is NOT being used on the goalline, and i don't know if it is even being used in the redzone, or on short yardage. You have to find out when it is being used and compare those plays to the same non-wildcat plays under those circumstances to get a more meaningful answer. Another example- think of Jerome Bettis. He might have have 10 tds and averaged 2 yards a carry. Does that mean he's a bad football player? No because those 2 yards were far more meaningful in the situation he would get them than elsewhere (ie- the goalline).

 

[mbuehner]

Gruden, who is a brilliant commentator, pointed out that it is not a gimmick and that basically by taking the QB off the field it gives you one more blocker and creates a mismatch for the defense.Of course, you have to have an exceptional player to run it--a player with running back skills but the decision-making and the sure hands of a QB. You also need two really good running backs. Not too many teams have the personnel but I still say one of them is Oakland with Bush (high school QB) and McFadden (ran wildcat in college).

Maybe all Miami is proving is that Ronnie Brown is their best QB.

 

[jurb26]

I'd be real careful with those stats. 327 plays is a small sample size, and worse because you have to control for short yardage and goalline situations where you may not see the Wildcat and where 2 yards may be enough. Miami ran 24 plays inside their opponents 5 yard line, and 24 with 1 or 2 yards to go (outside the opponents 5). They averaged 2.98 yards per play on those 48 plays (143 yards), but tallied touchdowns or 1st downs 31 our of 48 times. I'd be careful with THAT number because I'm not sure if and how often they run the wildcat in that situation, but assumedly less frequently than in the open field.Point being, 'base offense' is not a simple thing. You have to compare apples to apples.

Regardless of any of that, if a team is averaging 6.6 yards per attempt out of an offensive set, then that is an incredibly effective offensive set.

Depends. If i run a draw play on 3rd and 15+, i might average 10 yards a play. So what?

If you run a draw play on 3rd and 15, and you get 10 yards...you're averaging 1.667 yards per play. Because you ran three plays and gained a total of 5 yards. So actually, averaging 6.6 yards out of a set is indeed a seriously good average.

If you decide to invent scenarios I didn't say anything about... you can say whatever you want. I said AVERAGE 10 yards a play if you were to run the draw. Who cares if you can consistently run a sweet 10 yard draw play on 3rd and 15 but never get a first down? The statistic is deceiving.You can't judge the effectiveness of plays without a nod to situation. The wildcat is an open field formation, it needs to be compared with the other open field formations, apples to apples. I don't doubt the wildcat is still averaging more yards per play when that comparison is made for Miami, but its simply not the disparity that link pointed to. Thats why there are splits. Somebody needs to go back and find out when the wildcat gets run (between which yards, and on what downs) and compare the effectiveness on those plays.

I'd love to see Oak run the Wildcat when McFadden come back healthy. They also have the oline to execute it IMO.

 

[savemejee]

Depends. If i run a draw play on 3rd and 15+, i might average 10 yards a play. So what?

Are you suggesting that the Wildcat is only used on 3rd and long? Because unless you are, I really fail to see your point.

See above. I was making an analogy- yards per play is a situationally relevant stat. What I am saying is the Wildcat is NOT being used on the goalline, and i don't know if it is even being used in the redzone, or on short yardage. You have to find out when it is being used and compare those plays to the same non-wildcat plays under those circumstances to get a more meaningful answer. Another example- think of Jerome Bettis. He might have have 10 tds and averaged 2 yards a carry. Does that mean he's a bad football player? No because those 2 yards were far more meaningful in the situation he would get them than elsewhere (ie- the goalline).

Ronnie Brown has 2 touchdowns this year off of the Wildcat on the goaline.

 

[mbuehner]

Depends. If i run a draw play on 3rd and 15+, i might average 10 yards a play. So what?

Are you suggesting that the Wildcat is only used on 3rd and long? Because unless you are, I really fail to see your point.

See above. I was making an analogy- yards per play is a situationally relevant stat. What I am saying is the Wildcat is NOT being used on the goalline, and i don't know if it is even being used in the redzone, or on short yardage. You have to find out when it is being used and compare those plays to the same non-wildcat plays under those circumstances to get a more meaningful answer. Another example- think of Jerome Bettis. He might have have 10 tds and averaged 2 yards a carry. Does that mean he's a bad football player? No because those 2 yards were far more meaningful in the situation he would get them than elsewhere (ie- the goalline).

Ronnie Brown has 2 touchdowns this year off of the Wildcat on the goaline.

That was the question I was asking- how often do they run it on the goaline, do they run it on 3rd down, do they run it short yardage.

 

[Instinctive]

Depends. If i run a draw play on 3rd and 15+, i might average 10 yards a play. So what?

Are you suggesting that the Wildcat is only used on 3rd and long? Because unless you are, I really fail to see your point.

See above. I was making an analogy- yards per play is a situationally relevant stat. What I am saying is the Wildcat is NOT being used on the goalline, and i don't know if it is even being used in the redzone, or on short yardage. You have to find out when it is being used and compare those plays to the same non-wildcat plays under those circumstances to get a more meaningful answer. Another example- think of Jerome Bettis. He might have have 10 tds and averaged 2 yards a carry. Does that mean he's a bad football player? No because those 2 yards were far more meaningful in the situation he would get them than elsewhere (ie- the goalline).

Ronnie Brown has 2 touchdowns this year off of the Wildcat on the goaline.

That was the question I was asking- how often do they run it on the goaline, do they run it on 3rd down, do they run it short yardage.

No, it wasn;t your question. You didn't ask that question at all. In fact, I believe your exact words were "the wildcat is NOT being used at the goalline"ETA: yes, I mispelled goaline in my post becuase that's how you spelled it in the original quote.

 

[Instinctive]

I'd be real careful with those stats. 327 plays is a small sample size, and worse because you have to control for short yardage and goalline situations where you may not see the Wildcat and where 2 yards may be enough. Miami ran 24 plays inside their opponents 5 yard line, and 24 with 1 or 2 yards to go (outside the opponents 5). They averaged 2.98 yards per play on those 48 plays (143 yards), but tallied touchdowns or 1st downs 31 our of 48 times. I'd be careful with THAT number because I'm not sure if and how often they run the wildcat in that situation, but assumedly less frequently than in the open field.Point being, 'base offense' is not a simple thing. You have to compare apples to apples.

Regardless of any of that, if a team is averaging 6.6 yards per attempt out of an offensive set, then that is an incredibly effective offensive set.

Depends. If i run a draw play on 3rd and 15+, i might average 10 yards a play. So what?

If you run a draw play on 3rd and 15, and you get 10 yards...you're averaging 1.667 yards per play. Because you ran three plays and gained a total of 5 yards. So actually, averaging 6.6 yards out of a set is indeed a seriously good average.

If you decide to invent scenarios I didn't say anything about... you can say whatever you want. I said AVERAGE 10 yards a play if you were to run the draw. Who cares if you can consistently run a sweet 10 yard draw play on 3rd and 15 but never get a first down? The statistic is deceiving.You can't judge the effectiveness of plays without a nod to situation. The wildcat is an open field formation, it needs to be compared with the other open field formations, apples to apples. I don't doubt the wildcat is still averaging more yards per play when that comparison is made for Miami, but its simply not the disparity that link pointed to. Thats why there are splits. Somebody needs to go back and find out when the wildcat gets run (between which yards, and on what downs) and compare the effectiveness on those plays.

It isn't about inventing a scenario at all. If you gain ten yards on 3rd and 15...then on first and second down you HAD to have had something to knock you back a net of 5 yards and use up 1st and 2nd down. You HAD to. Otherwise it is impossible to get to 3rd and 15. Therefore, if you gain 10 yards on your 3rd and 15 play, you averaged 1.667 yards per play.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Depends. If i run a draw play on 3rd and 15+, i might average 10 yards a play. So what?

Are you suggesting that the Wildcat is only used on 3rd and long? Because unless you are, I really fail to see your point.

See above. I was making an analogy- yards per play is a situationally relevant stat. What I am saying is the Wildcat is NOT being used on the goalline, and i don't know if it is even being used in the redzone, or on short yardage. You have to find out when it is being used and compare those plays to the same non-wildcat plays under those circumstances to get a more meaningful answer. Another example- think of Jerome Bettis. He might have have 10 tds and averaged 2 yards a carry. Does that mean he's a bad football player? No because those 2 yards were far more meaningful in the situation he would get them than elsewhere (ie- the goalline).

I have to disagree with you. One the of issues Miami fans were saying was they should have been using the WC at the goal line because the traditional set wasn't working form the goal line. then Miami ran two plays form the WC form about the 3 yard line and one would have been a TD but the FB dove and missed on the safety who was the only guy who could make a tackle and then when they did it again it was an easy TD. It has been used on all down for the Dolphins, including short yardage and has been extremely effective because they are getting an extra blocker on the field. Further, Miami was successful without the threat to throw, but now they are starting to do that more and that will open up another variation.Take it at its simplest form, what value does the QB add from the goal line play? the only value is the threat of the throw or the throw. When the QB is off the field you get the benefit of the extra blocker and if you have the right person running it, you have the threat of a short throw which is easier for most of the guys like Ronnie Brown.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

I'd be real careful with those stats. 327 plays is a small sample size, and worse because you have to control for short yardage and goalline situations where you may not see the Wildcat and where 2 yards may be enough. Miami ran 24 plays inside their opponents 5 yard line, and 24 with 1 or 2 yards to go (outside the opponents 5). They averaged 2.98 yards per play on those 48 plays (143 yards), but tallied touchdowns or 1st downs 31 our of 48 times. I'd be careful with THAT number because I'm not sure if and how often they run the wildcat in that situation, but assumedly less frequently than in the open field.Point being, 'base offense' is not a simple thing. You have to compare apples to apples.

Regardless of any of that, if a team is averaging 6.6 yards per attempt out of an offensive set, then that is an incredibly effective offensive set.

Depends. If i run a draw play on 3rd and 15+, i might average 10 yards a play. So what?

If you run a draw play on 3rd and 15, and you get 10 yards...you're averaging 1.667 yards per play. Because you ran three plays and gained a total of 5 yards. So actually, averaging 6.6 yards out of a set is indeed a seriously good average.

If you decide to invent scenarios I didn't say anything about... you can say whatever you want. I said AVERAGE 10 yards a play if you were to run the draw. Who cares if you can consistently run a sweet 10 yard draw play on 3rd and 15 but never get a first down? The statistic is deceiving.You can't judge the effectiveness of plays without a nod to situation. The wildcat is an open field formation, it needs to be compared with the other open field formations, apples to apples. I don't doubt the wildcat is still averaging more yards per play when that comparison is made for Miami, but its simply not the disparity that link pointed to. Thats why there are splits. Somebody needs to go back and find out when the wildcat gets run (between which yards, and on what downs) and compare the effectiveness on those plays.

This only hurts your argument though, since the Wildcat is never run in those situations. Teams don't want to waste a play out of that formation on a give up play to pick up a few garbage yards, and I've never seen anyone run it in a situation like that, or a situation where they were way behind picking up garbage yards against a prevent defense.So really, your point makes the wildcat stat even MORE meaningful, because it does NOT benefit from garbage yards on 3rd and long or against a prevent defense, and it STILL has a higher yards per play average than normal plays, which often ARE run in those situations.

 

[Two Deep]

Bye-Bye Wildcat: From the Sunsentinel.com

JACKSONVILLE - The shackles have come off, and some records are starting to come down.

First-year quarterback Chad Henne is no longer handcuffed to a run-first, dink-and-dunk offense.

There isn't a need to take him off the field for Wildcat or Pat White plays anymore. The offense moves just fine without the gimmicks.

Why restrict his ability to call audibles? He's seeing the field just fine.

 

[jamny]

The Dolphins used the Wildcat to get Ricky and Ronnie on the field together at the same time. Once Ronnie Brown got hurt, there was no one to handle running it so they went back to a conventional offense. A side benefit of it was to allow Henne to develop and the results have paid off. There were a few times that they ran the Wildcat on 1st and Goal where I wished they would have gone with Henne. Will they go back to it this year? Maybe they are working in practice with someone else running it but there isn't a need with Henne playing well.

 

[Ilov80s]

The Dolphins used the Wildcat to get Ricky and Ronnie on the field together at the same time. Once Ronnie Brown got hurt, there was no one to handle running it so they went back to a conventional offense. A side benefit of it was to allow Henne to develop and the results have paid off. There were a few times that they ran the Wildcat on 1st and Goal where I wished they would have gone with Henne. Will they go back to it this year? Maybe they are working in practice with someone else running it but there isn't a need with Henne playing well.

Excellent point. The Fins don't really have the personnel to run it now. Also, they finally have a QB with an NFL arm who can run a complete pro-style offense. As a UM fan, I am excited for Henne. I really thought the Fins got a steal with Henne. He was the best UM QB I can remember and has a true NFL arm. It still escapes me how he fell to the late 2nd.

 

[shake zula]

I'd like to see Ted Ginn out of the WC or coming around for the reverse.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

I'd like to see Ted Ginn out of the WC or coming around for the reverse.

I'd like to see Ted Ginn on the sidelines for any play that doesn't involve a kickoff.

 

[jamny]

I think Bess would be the guy to go with if they intend on still using it.

 

[=Smackdown=]

I'd like to see Ginn off the team next year.

I'd also like to see the Dolphins use Bess as a Wes Welker clone out of the slot more.

Chad Henne is Chad Pennington with a cannon for an arm.

 

[Ilov80s]

I'd like to see Ginn off the team next year.I'd also like to see the Dolphins use Bess as a Wes Welker clone out of the slot more.Chad Henne is Chad Pennington with a cannon for an arm.

So basically he is almost nothing like Pennington?

 

[TommyGilmore]

Bye-Bye Wildcat: From the Sunsentinel.com

JACKSONVILLE - The shackles have come off, and some records are starting to come down.

First-year quarterback Chad Henne is no longer handcuffed to a run-first, dink-and-dunk offense.

There isn't a need to take him off the field for Wildcat or Pat White plays anymore. The offense moves just fine without the gimmicks.

Why restrict his ability to call audibles? He's seeing the field just fine.

That's all fine and well until Henne has a bad game and then people start calling for the Wildcat again. Sometimes it amazes me how one game can affect the way people see things.

 

[=Smackdown=]

I'd like to see Ginn off the team next year.I'd also like to see the Dolphins use Bess as a Wes Welker clone out of the slot more.Chad Henne is Chad Pennington with a cannon for an arm.

So basically he is almost nothing like Pennington?

I meant to say that they are both smart with the football - doesn't force a lot of throws into coverage. Will either throw it out of bounds or take the sack as opposed to throwing an INT.The most important stat - Henne is now 7-3 as a starter.

 

[jamny]

Bye-Bye Wildcat: From the Sunsentinel.com

JACKSONVILLE - The shackles have come off, and some records are starting to come down.

First-year quarterback Chad Henne is no longer handcuffed to a run-first, dink-and-dunk offense.

There isn't a need to take him off the field for Wildcat or Pat White plays anymore. The offense moves just fine without the gimmicks.

Why restrict his ability to call audibles? He's seeing the field just fine.

That's all fine and well until Henne has a bad game and then people start calling for the Wildcat again. Sometimes it amazes me how one game can affect the way people see things.

Well it's been more than just one game. Anyone watching the Phins has seen the progress with Henne. As I said, I thought they used the Wildcat a bit too much even before Ronnie went down. People can call for the Wildcat all they want but they wouldn't realize that there is no one yet capable of running it to the degree of success they had with Brown. Pat White has yet to show much in that system. I also think if Henne does have a bad game, they'll throw it in for some plays to change things up.

 

[jamny]

I'd like to see Ginn off the team next year.I'd also like to see the Dolphins use Bess as a Wes Welker clone out of the slot more.Chad Henne is Chad Pennington with a cannon for an arm.

So basically he is almost nothing like Pennington?

I meant to say that they are both smart with the football - doesn't force a lot of throws into coverage. Will either throw it out of bounds or take the sack as opposed to throwing an INT.The most important stat - Henne is now 7-3 as a starter.

He scares me a little with how long he stays in a collapsing pocket. It's almost like he's unaware of the pressure. He manages to hold onto the ball though even with blindside sacks. All little things but any Phin fan has to be happy with what they're seeing from him.

 

[Instinctive]

Would be nice to see a game or two where they roll out White similar to how Philly has been bringing in Vick...

ETA: meaning alongside Henne, so Henne is a threat to throw, White a threat to run, but White alos a threat to throw if somebody busts a coverage.