Calvin Johnson...You have any concerns that he won't be a stud (1 Viewer)

[bigreese82]

I'm trying to find out from all the college experts and draft followers...Is he really that assured of being a top 10 WR for years. I've heard talk of people considering him at 1.1 rookie pick. Is this warranted? Sell me on him or convince me that he is far from being a sure thing? Will he have the normal wr learning curve? Is he actually quick...can he create seperation from DBs? Will he turn into a possesion receiver with good hands and not truly a game-breaker??

Let's talk CJ

 

[FTRWRTR]

He's 6'5" 235 and runs a 4.45/40...you just can't coach those things. I considered him the best wr in the nation after I saw him his FRESHMAN year and I hate GA Tech! The biggest knock on him was that he had a few games where he had only 1 or 2 catches but I'd blame his so called qb for not throwing him the ball. That said I can't imagine drafting him before AD under any circumstances and I'd have to be really loaded at rb to take him before lynch.

 

[Avery]

He's 6'5" 235 and runs a 4.45/40...you just can't coach those things. I considered him the best wr in the nation after I saw him his FRESHMAN year and I hate GA Tech! The biggest knock on him was that he had a few games where he had only 1 or 2 catches but I'd blame his so called qb for not throwing him the ball. That said I can't imagine drafting him before AD under any circumstances and I'd have to be really loaded at rb to take him before lynch.

 

[FTRWRTR]

sigh...AD = All Day = Adrian Peterson

 

[bigreese82]

all the highlights I've seen of Ginn have him behind DBs by 5-6 yards...even on crossing routes out of a quick break. C.J has that type of seperation skills? Does anyone worry that he will be a 250 lb wr ala Mike Williams and mainly be effective around the goalline on jump balls. Do you guys see him having a good shuttle time?

 

[EBF]

He's not the quickest or most explosive guy, but I still think he'll be a very good NFL player. He seems quicker than Mike Williams and is certainly a much better jump ball WR. I think the worst case scenario is a Keyshawn-like career.

Keep in mind that several sources list him as a top 3 prospect in this draft. You don't get ranked that high on hype alone, especially if you play for Georgia Tech.

 

[fatboyj711]

all the highlights I've seen of Ginn have him behind DBs by 5-6 yards...even on crossing routes out of a quick break. C.J has that type of seperation skills? Does anyone worry that he will be a 250 lb wr ala Mike Williams and mainly be effective around the goalline on jump balls. Do you guys see him having a good shuttle time?

ginn and BMW are opposite ends of the spectrum when talking about a skill set for a WR... if you have to compare CJ to anyone, his measurables and skills are similar to larry fitz

 

[T Man]

He's 6'5" 235 and runs a 4.45/40...you just can't coach those things. I considered him the best wr in the nation after I saw him his FRESHMAN year and I hate GA Tech! The biggest knock on him was that he had a few games where he had only 1 or 2 catches but I'd blame his so called qb for not throwing him the ball. That said I can't imagine drafting him before AD under any circumstances and I'd have to be really loaded at rb to take him before lynch.

CJ will be a stud. I am far from a Tech fan, but the few games I saw CJ play he dominated. And he did this with Reggie Ball at QB -- who rarely could throw the ball in the proper place. If he was in a passing offense or had a better QB you would see numbers. He was the only thing Defenses gameplanned to stop. I still remember him dominating Auburn a couple of years ago -- and that was a very good Auburn Defense.I am assuming he will perform well at the Combine or his pro day. He has had the coaching of Chan Gailey on offense. I think he is the real deal. He is the best player coming out - and the surest thing. Of course, I still don't see a WR going #1 overall. He should, but he won't.

 

[FTRWRTR]

all the highlights I've seen of Ginn have him behind DBs by 5-6 yards...even on crossing routes out of a quick break. C.J has that type of seperation skills? Does anyone worry that he will be a 250 lb wr ala Mike Williams and mainly be effective around the goalline on jump balls. Do you guys see him having a good shuttle time?

You have to remember that BMW was away from the game for a year and I think he got lazy and adopted some other bad habits during that time off. Also he was never a speed guy, IMO the thing that worries me most about calvin johnson from a fantasy football perspective is that he goes to the bucs and plays 2nd fiddle to galloway for a couple of seasons. No way would I take ginn or any other wr before him

 

[zadok]

He's 6'5" 235 and runs a 4.45/40...you just can't coach those things. I considered him the best wr in the nation after I saw him his FRESHMAN year and I hate GA Tech! The biggest knock on him was that he had a few games where he had only 1 or 2 catches but I'd blame his so called qb for not throwing him the ball. That said I can't imagine drafting him before AD under any circumstances and I'd have to be really loaded at rb to take him before lynch.

Weren't nearly the same things being said about Charles Rogers 4 years ago?

 

[Z-Dog]

Count me among the un-convinced. I see him becoming a Keyshawn. I don't think he's all that fast, and many WRs all lose a step in their first couple of years. I don't think quickness out of the breaks will be a problem, but I think deception and moves at the break will be. On the NFL level you can't just run by people, you gotta fool them a little too.

I probably haven't watched as much film as lots of guys in here, and in general I think that if professional scouts have such a hard time figuring out who will be good then amateurs aren't likely to be more reliable. I try to look at these situations to evaluate patterns. Over the last ten years the success rate of WRs taken in the top 5 is weak. Here's the list since 1984:

Irving Fryar

Kenny Jackson

Desmond Howard

Michael Westbrook

Keyshawn Johnson

Peter Warrick

Charles Rogers

Andre Johnson

Larry Fitzgerald

Braylon Edwards

That's 10 guys. Of them so far only Fryar has had a truly great career. Keyshawn has been ok, but is a disappointment for 1.01. Andre Johnson has started to come on, and Fitzgerald has been very good in his young career. But even if Braylon Edwards joins the group, that's still on 4 out of 10 that are truly top WRs.

 

[WhoDat]

He's not the quickest or most explosive guy, but I still think he'll be a very good NFL player. He seems quicker than Mike Williams and is certainly a much better jump ball WR. I think the worst case scenario is a Keyshawn-like career. Keep in mind that several sources list him as a top 3 prospect in this draft. You don't get ranked that high on hype alone, especially if you play for Georgia Tech.

And...My understanding is that Johnson elected to play at Georgia Tech. Why? He went to GT because of the education the school provided...his mom is a doctor. Johnson is well grounded and comes from a family that places an emphasis on important things like school, family, etc. He could have played just about anywhere he wanted. He choose GT not vice versa. Hypothetically, if Johnson lands at a football factory instead of GT...Ohio State; USC; Miami or Texas...this is not even a question that is being asked.He has measurables, talent and character that indicate he is as close to a sure thing as a team or dynasty owner is going to see. I like the downside, Keyshawn assessment.

 

[VTjkru]

He's not the quickest or most explosive guy, but I still think he'll be a very good NFL player. He seems quicker than Mike Williams and is certainly a much better jump ball WR. I think the worst case scenario is a Keyshawn-like career. Keep in mind that several sources list him as a top 3 prospect in this draft. You don't get ranked that high on hype alone, especially if you play for Georgia Tech.

And...My understanding is that Johnson elected to play at Georgia Tech. Why? He went to GT because of the education the school provided...his mom is a doctor. Johnson is well grounded and comes from a family that places an emphasis on important things like school, family, etc. He could have played just about anywhere he wanted. He choose GT not vice versa. Hypothetically, if Johnson lands at a football factory instead of GT...Ohio State; USC; Miami or Texas...this is not even a question that is being asked.He has measurables, talent and character that indicate he is as close to a sure thing as a team or dynasty owner is going to see. I like the downside, Keyshawn assessment.

I am a Virginia Tech fan and saw many of Calvin's games (even the one where Georgia Tech spanked the Hokies at home and I had to sit in the stands and watch Calvin take over that game). He is definitly the real deal. Im sure when it gets closer to draft day everyone will start to hear more about his character. He is a very smart kid and has his head on straight. There's countless stories of all the good things he's done for the community and he's a great ambassador for his school.Like it was said above, if he played for any other high profile school you would see teams trying to trade up to get him. He's that good. If his absolute downside (barring an injury) is Keyshawn Johnson I dont know how you dont take him first.

 

[Chaos Commish]

I don't think he's all that fast...

He is expected to post a blazing 40. He has been reported in the mid 4.3s with a 40+ inch verticle. That is an extraordinarily explosive athlete. He's 230+, a true freak. Moreso than any of the WRs he's being compared too. We'll see if these numbers hold up at the Combine, and I have my doubts too, but those who follow him closely have been reporting these numbers for a couple years now. He may lack some quicks, gathers at his breaks. He may be too dependent on jump ball skills. I thought Eric Weddle got in his head, had Calvin looking for him, and Calvin dropped a few with alligator arms as a sophomore in that bowl game. Extremely quick small DBs like Tye Hill have done well against him, but you have to think Calvin will win those battles in the redzone. He may not be as physical as he should be. He's like a 2 year old Great Dane. He doesn't know what he is yet, but watch out when he figures it all out.

Keyshawn as his downside is really setting the bar low, and Keyshawn hasn't been that bad. I don't have an early dynasty rookie pick, and though I would love any of the top three, I'm kind of happy I don't have to trouble my head figuring out who is the best pick.

ETA-- since I am being critical here. I also think he rounds out his routes too much. I read almost daily somewhere that Ginn is raw. Ginn runs very crisp routes. I think Calvin is probably is a little behind Jarrett and Ginn from a "coached up" standpoint. I sometimes wonder why he hasn't been labeled raw because he is, but what a package tangible and intangible.

ETA pt 2. If all that sounds a little too negative, I would compare Calvin more to Randy Moss than Larry Fitzgerald. A bigger Randy Moss with very high character. Thus, I agree with Who Dat's "as close to a can't miss" as possible.

 

[bigreese82]

If he runs in the mid 4.3s that would put him right there with Ginn, right? I had also gotten the feeling that he was a little raw...so the people that are expecting huge numbers in his first 2 years might be dissapointed

I think a raw Tedd Ginn outproduces a raw Calvin Johnson early on because of his speed,quickness and better route running ability initially...much easier to produce from a home run ball in my opinion. Calvin Johnson does have a higher upside though

I could see teams putting their "big CB" on Calvin and trying to negate his size advantage a little. Can you negate Tedd Ginn's speed and quicks as easy without having to bring a safety over. His RAC ability is something also that you can't really give a 7 yard cushion either

I guess I like Ginn too

 

[jurb26]

If he runs in the mid 4.3s that would put him right there with Ginn, right? I had also gotten the feeling that he was a little raw...so the people that are expecting huge numbers in his first 2 years might be dissapointedI think a raw Tedd Ginn outproduces a raw Calvin Johnson early on because of his speed,quickness and better route running ability initially...much easier to produce from a home run ball in my opinion. Calvin Johnson does have a higher upside thoughI could see teams putting their "big CB" on Calvin and trying to negate his size advantage a little. Can you negate Tedd Ginn's speed and quicks as easy without having to bring a safety over. His RAC ability is something also that you can't really give a 7 yard cushion eitherI guess I like Ginn too

I expect Ginn to run in the 4.2s and would not be surprised to see him post an high 4.1 40 time. The guy is flat out a blazzer. He does not look nearly as fast as he really is because of how smooth he is in his stride and in between "gears." You need only watch the KO return vs Florida to see how fast he is. Johnson is a guy that I expect to run in the high 4.3s, maybe even low 4.4s. For his size, that is fantastic speed. However I would say that I think his speed will be less than advertised.Ginn does not have nearly the same ball skills as Johnson right now. He likely never will. Yes, his speed will drive DCs nuts as he can stretch the field in the blink of an eye. I would think teams simple jam him at the line and roll a S over the top and not worry so much about the CB.

 

[FTRWRTR]

I could see teams putting their "big CB" on Calvin and trying to negate his size advantage a little. Can you negate Tedd Ginn's speed and quicks as easy without having to bring a safety over. His RAC ability is something also that you can't really give a 7 yard cushion either

It depends on where ginn goes. If minny takes him for example he would pretty much be the only wr threat worth covering. In that case not only would he get the big cb but also face double and maybe even triple coverage. If CJ does go to the bucs like many mocks have him doing then you have to figure he'll only be covered by one guy because of joey galloway on the other side

 

[aposulli]

Assuming he officially clocks at 4.45 then no chance he won't be a stud.

 

[Chaos Commish]

I guess I like Ginn too

I expect Ginn to run in the 4.2s and would not be surprised to see him post an high 4.1 40 time.

I don't want to hijack Calvin's thread with my Ginn love, but...He's sort of fast.

Ginn, a high school national champion in the 110 high hurdles, was clocked in an obscenely fast 4.06 for the 40-yard dash during spring practice.

As I understand it, and cannot fully substantiate... As a freshman he clocked 4.09 in the Spring. As a sophomore he disappointed with 4.36 and was bested by Gonzalez by a 100th. That started the Gonzo is faster talk, and even Ginn's dad has said Gonzo might be faster. All I know is I can't remember seeing any player separate like Ginn does except the guy with the perfect brushes on that old electric vibrating board game.

 

[ILUVBEER99]

Ginn, a high school national champion in the 110 high hurdles, was clocked in an obscenely fast 4.06 for the 40-yard dash during spring practice.

As I understand it, and cannot fully substantiate... As a freshman he clocked 4.09 in the Spring. As a sophomore he disappointed with 4.36 and was bested by Gonzalez by a 100th. That started the Gonzo is faster talk, and even Ginn's dad has said Gonzo might be faster. All I know is I can't remember seeing any player separate like Ginn does except the guy with the perfect brushes on that old electric vibrating board game.

I love Ginn, but there is no way he legitimately ever ran under a 4.2I remember there was some article on these boards a few years ago (i can't find it) on the splits of world record runners and none of them would have been able to run a non wind aided 40 under 4.2.

These non-official 40's having guys run under 4.2 are ridiculous. Hand times are inaccurate. The NFL combine has used electronic timing since 1990 and the fastest time since then was 4.25 by fabian washington.

If Ginn runs under a 4.2 at the combine it will be shocking.

 

[massraider]

Ginn, a high school national champion in the 110 high hurdles, was clocked in an obscenely fast 4.06 for the 40-yard dash during spring practice.

As I understand it, and cannot fully substantiate... As a freshman he clocked 4.09 in the Spring. As a sophomore he disappointed with 4.36 and was bested by Gonzalez by a 100th. That started the Gonzo is faster talk, and even Ginn's dad has said Gonzo might be faster. All I know is I can't remember seeing any player separate like Ginn does except the guy with the perfect brushes on that old electric vibrating board game.

I love Ginn, but there is no way he legitimately ever ran under a 4.2I remember there was some article on these boards a few years ago (i can't find it) on the splits of world record runners and none of them would have been able to run a non wind aided 40 under 4.2.

These non-official 40's having guys run under 4.2 are ridiculous. Hand times are inaccurate. The NFL combine has used electronic timing since 1990 and the fastest time since then was 4.25 by fabian washington.

If Ginn runs under a 4.2 at the combine it will be shocking.

Oh cripes, the famous 4.2 Every year, some jerky at Virgina Tech runs a 4.2.

To answer the original question, yeah, there's reason to be concerned. He's a WR about to be drafted in the top 5-10. Pretty high bust rate.

 

[Da Guru]

After Charlie Rogers and Mike Williams....what would you think?

The bottom line with WRs is that there are no sure things. Calvin seems to be a can`t miss type, but you never know.

 

[Chaos Commish]

Ginn, a high school national champion in the 110 high hurdles, was clocked in an obscenely fast 4.06 for the 40-yard dash during spring practice.

As I understand it, and cannot fully substantiate... As a freshman he clocked 4.09 in the Spring. As a sophomore he disappointed with 4.36 and was bested by Gonzalez by a 100th. That started the Gonzo is faster talk, and even Ginn's dad has said Gonzo might be faster. All I know is I can't remember seeing any player separate like Ginn does except the guy with the perfect brushes on that old electric vibrating board game.

I love Ginn, but there is no way he legitimately ever ran under a 4.2I remember there was some article on these boards a few years ago (i can't find it) on the splits of world record runners and none of them would have been able to run a non wind aided 40 under 4.2.

These non-official 40's having guys run under 4.2 are ridiculous. Hand times are inaccurate. The NFL combine has used electronic timing since 1990 and the fastest time since then was 4.25 by fabian washington.

If Ginn runs under a 4.2 at the combine it will be shocking.

I'm pretty sure Fabian Washington's elcectronic time is 4.31 and it's been tied a few times. 4.2 is doable. Ben Johnson's roid rage Tokyo 100M is widely considered the fastest start 40 yards and 60 meters ever run. He was 2 ticks under the current 60M record and get this 4.38 in the 40. No way any football player was ahead of him, right?

Well, not so fast. The football guys trains specifically for the 40 and get there as quick as the best sprinters in the world, if those sprinters are running another 60. Also the sprinters react to the gun. The football players start whenever they want and the clock reacts to them. This is a full 2 tenths on most times, maybe more. So Johnson's 4.38 would be a 4.18 or better and he was still running.

I used to believe...

Wait

I knew this was out there somewhere

From Wikipedia

Many reported times are unreliable due to differences in timing methods if not intentional falsifications. The fastest time officially recorded by the NFL was 4.29 seconds by Deion Sanders in 1989 [1], although the NFL did not begin electronic timing until 1990. In the electronic timing era, the fastest recorded time at the NFL Combine was 4.25 seconds by cornerback Fabian Washington in 2005. [2] Most other times close to 4.0 are untrustworthy due to the use of hand timing, but it is often claimed that players including Sanders (4.17)[3], Ted Ginn Jr. (4.06)[4], DeAngelo Hall (4.15)[5][6], Michael Vick (4.25)[7], Bo Jackson (4.12)[8], Michael Bennett (4.13)[9], Randy Moss (4.25)[10], Darrell Green (4.15[11], 4.2[12]), Laveranues Coles (4.2)[13], and Alexander Wright (4.09)[14] have approached that mark. Although 40 yards is always run, the 60 meter dash is not a well-regulated track and field distance, the official record for which is 6.39 seconds. Tapes of sprinter Ben Johnson's world-record breaking 1988 100 meter dash (which was later annulled due to Johnson's steroid use), however, show that Johnson ran the 60 m in 6.37 seconds; this is considered the most quickly started race ever run.[15] Johnson covered the first 40 meters in 4.53 seconds. It is often reported wrongly that Johnsons first 40 yards was timed. It was actually his first 40 meters. Which translates to an exceptionally fast 40 yard time (4.24 seconds).

However, in track and field races, the runner must react to the starting gun, which can take 0.10 to 0.20 seconds. For electronically timed 40 yard dashes, the runner is allowed to start when he wishes, and a timer hand-starts the clock (after a reaction time of 0.1 to 0.2 seconds). This difference would indicate that, at peak form, Johnson would have been electronically timed in 4.04 to 4.14 seconds, or hand-timed in about 4.00 seconds, making claims of hand-held times in the 4.1-4.2 range more credible.

In the first article I linked, Ginn said, Whitner was running 4.3 at Ohio State. That's what he did at the Combine too. Ginn also says he is running 4.2s. I think the ankle could set him back, but I won't be surprised if a world class sprinter training specifically for the event with the advantage of a clock waiting for him... could do it electronically.eta: you were right on Fabian Washington. Man that is fast. I think Ginn can push it.

 

[jurb26]

Ginn, a high school national champion in the 110 high hurdles, was clocked in an obscenely fast 4.06 for the 40-yard dash during spring practice.

As I understand it, and cannot fully substantiate... As a freshman he clocked 4.09 in the Spring. As a sophomore he disappointed with 4.36 and was bested by Gonzalez by a 100th. That started the Gonzo is faster talk, and even Ginn's dad has said Gonzo might be faster. All I know is I can't remember seeing any player separate like Ginn does except the guy with the perfect brushes on that old electric vibrating board game.

I love Ginn, but there is no way he legitimately ever ran under a 4.2I remember there was some article on these boards a few years ago (i can't find it) on the splits of world record runners and none of them would have been able to run a non wind aided 40 under 4.2.

These non-official 40's having guys run under 4.2 are ridiculous. Hand times are inaccurate. The NFL combine has used electronic timing since 1990 and the fastest time since then was 4.25 by fabian washington.

If Ginn runs under a 4.2 at the combine it will be shocking.

I'm pretty sure Fabian Washington's elcectronic time is 4.31 and it's been tied a few times. 4.2 is doable. Ben Johnson's roid rage Tokyo 100M is widely considered the fastest start 40 yards and 60 meters ever run. He was 2 ticks under the current 60M record and get this 4.38 in the 40. No way any football player was ahead of him, right?

Well, not so fast. The football guys trains specifically for the 40 and get there as quick as the best sprinters in the world, if those sprinters are running another 60. Also the sprinters react to the gun. The football players start whenever they want and the clock reacts to them. This is a full 2 tenths on most times, maybe more. So Johnson's 4.38 would be a 4.18 or better and he was still running.

I used to believe...

Wait

I knew this was out there somewhere

From Wikipedia

Many reported times are unreliable due to differences in timing methods if not intentional falsifications. The fastest time officially recorded by the NFL was 4.29 seconds by Deion Sanders in 1989 [1], although the NFL did not begin electronic timing until 1990. In the electronic timing era, the fastest recorded time at the NFL Combine was 4.25 seconds by cornerback Fabian Washington in 2005. [2] Most other times close to 4.0 are untrustworthy due to the use of hand timing, but it is often claimed that players including Sanders (4.17)[3], Ted Ginn Jr. (4.06)[4], DeAngelo Hall (4.15)[5][6], Michael Vick (4.25)[7], Bo Jackson (4.12)[8], Michael Bennett (4.13)[9], Randy Moss (4.25)[10], Darrell Green (4.15[11], 4.2[12]), Laveranues Coles (4.2)[13], and Alexander Wright (4.09)[14] have approached that mark. Although 40 yards is always run, the 60 meter dash is not a well-regulated track and field distance, the official record for which is 6.39 seconds. Tapes of sprinter Ben Johnson's world-record breaking 1988 100 meter dash (which was later annulled due to Johnson's steroid use), however, show that Johnson ran the 60 m in 6.37 seconds; this is considered the most quickly started race ever run.[15] Johnson covered the first 40 meters in 4.53 seconds. It is often reported wrongly that Johnsons first 40 yards was timed. It was actually his first 40 meters. Which translates to an exceptionally fast 40 yard time (4.24 seconds).

However, in track and field races, the runner must react to the starting gun, which can take 0.10 to 0.20 seconds. For electronically timed 40 yard dashes, the runner is allowed to start when he wishes, and a timer hand-starts the clock (after a reaction time of 0.1 to 0.2 seconds). This difference would indicate that, at peak form, Johnson would have been electronically timed in 4.04 to 4.14 seconds, or hand-timed in about 4.00 seconds, making claims of hand-held times in the 4.1-4.2 range more credible.

In the first article I linked, Ginn said, Whitner was running 4.3 at Ohio State. That's what he did at the Combine too. Ginn also says he is running 4.2s. I think the ankle could set him back, but I won't be surprised if a world class sprinter training specifically for the event with the advantage of a clock waiting for him... could do it electronically.eta: you were right on Fabian Washington. Man that is fast. I think Ginn can push it.

I would actually be surprised if Ginn did not run at least in the 4.2s. The guy is probably the fastest college player I can ever remember watching.

 

[GregR_2]

...

As I understand it, and cannot fully substantiate...

As a freshman he clocked 4.09 in the Spring. As a sophomore he disappointed with 4.36 and was bested by Gonzalez by a 100th. That started the Gonzo is faster talk, and even Ginn's dad has said Gonzo might be faster. All I know is I can't remember seeing any player separate like Ginn does except the guy with the perfect brushes on that old electric vibrating board game.

I that guy!

 

[EBF]

After Charlie Rogers and Mike Williams....what would you think?

The bottom line with WRs is that there are no sure things. Calvin seems to be a can`t miss type, but you never know.

I'm not a big fan of this line of thinking for a few reasons:1. Charles Rogers was a dope fiend. That characteristic tends to hinder a player's career. Also, he had two freak injuries that were entirely impossible to predict. If he had stayed healthy and won RoY then maybe he would've stayed motivated and turned into a star. At any rate, to ignore his personal problems when evaluating his failure is an oversight. As far as we know, Calvin Johnson has no such drug/character issues.

2. Mike Williams was never in the same league as a prospect. He was a very high profile college player and there were some scouting services that had him ranked high, but even before he entered the league there was talk that he was too big and slow, and that he might be moved to TE. That was a huge red flag for me. You'll never hear the same things said about Calvin Johnson.

Also, Mike Williams isn't dead yet. He was an early entry, he sat out a year of football, and he's only been in the league for two years. There's plenty of time for him to turn it around. Do I think he will? No, but I wouldn't count him out completely.

If you look at playing style, pedigree, production, and character, Larry Fitzgerald is definitely the best recent comparison for Calvin Johnson.

 

[EBF]

ETA pt 2. If all that sounds a little too negative, I would compare Calvin more to Randy Moss than Larry Fitzgerald. A bigger Randy Moss with very high character. Thus, I agree with Who Dat's "as close to a can't miss" as possible.

I disagree with you here. Calvin is a great jump ball receiver like Moss, but Moss always looked a hell of a lot faster. Maybe he's lost a few steps, but almost no one could run with 84 in his prime. That won't be the case with Calvin Johnson. To me, Calvin Johnson is like a hybrid of Keyshawn Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald with the ball skills of Marvin Harrison.

 

[Chaos Commish]

ETA pt 2. If all that sounds a little too negative, I would compare Calvin more to Randy Moss than Larry Fitzgerald. A bigger Randy Moss with very high character. Thus, I agree with Who Dat's "as close to a can't miss" as possible.

I disagree with you here. Calvin is a great jump ball receiver like Moss, but Moss always looked a hell of a lot faster. Maybe he's lost a few steps, but almost no one could run with 84 in his prime. That won't be the case with Calvin Johnson. To me, Calvin Johnson is like a hybrid of Keyshawn Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald with the ball skills of Marvin Harrison.

Fitz and Keyshawn are too slow. Calvin can fly. If you went with Harrison's speed and a combination of his and Fitz ballskills I would think that closer than Randy. But, when he opens up on a fly pattern his leg action even reminds me of Moss. He just glides past very fast corners who cannot run with him.eta: Keyshawn or Fitz could only dream of these kinds of numbers-- Freak

The 6-5, 235-pound junior is the most dynamic wideout in the country and has the total package. "Along with freakish skills, he has an unbelievable work ethic to match," says Tech director of player development Eric Ciano. "Calvin leads by example and he never complains or quits. His athletic ability is second to none. His first semester at Georgia Tech, Johnson vertical jumped 43 inches and had a standing long of 11-2. He has run consecutive 4.3 40-yard dashes at 235 pounds. He also power cleans over 330 pounds with ease. His strength, speed, and explosiveness are unmatched."

How about Fitz on crack?

 

[jurb26]

ETA pt 2. If all that sounds a little too negative, I would compare Calvin more to Randy Moss than Larry Fitzgerald. A bigger Randy Moss with very high character. Thus, I agree with Who Dat's "as close to a can't miss" as possible.

I disagree with you here. Calvin is a great jump ball receiver like Moss, but Moss always looked a hell of a lot faster. Maybe he's lost a few steps, but almost no one could run with 84 in his prime. That won't be the case with Calvin Johnson. To me, Calvin Johnson is like a hybrid of Keyshawn Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald with the ball skills of Marvin Harrison.

Fitz and Keyshawn are too slow. Calvin can fly. If you went with Harrison's speed and a combination of his and Fitz ballskills I would think that closer than Randy. But, when he opens up on a fly pattern his leg action even reminds me of Moss. He just glides past very fast corners who cannot run with him.

What fast CBs have you seen him do this to? I don't think he has near the speed of a Moss or any elite speed NFL WRs for that matter.

 

[Z-Dog]

I don't think he's all that fast...

He is expected to post a blazing 40. He has been reported in the mid 4.3s with a 40+ inch verticle. That is an extraordinarily explosive athlete. He's 230+, a true freak. Moreso than any of the WRs he's being compared too. We'll see if these numbers hold up at the Combine, and I have my doubts too, but those who follow him closely have been reporting these numbers for a couple years now. He may lack some quicks, gathers at his breaks. He may be too dependent on jump ball skills. I thought Eric Weddle got in his head, had Calvin looking for him, and Calvin dropped a few with alligator arms as a sophomore in that bowl game. Extremely quick small DBs like Tye Hill have done well against him, but you have to think Calvin will win those battles in the redzone. He may not be as physical as he should be. He's like a 2 year old Great Dane. He doesn't know what he is yet, but watch out when he figures it all out. Keyshawn as his downside is really setting the bar low, and Keyshawn hasn't been that bad. I don't have an early dynasty rookie pick, and though I would love any of the top three, I'm kind of happy I don't have to trouble my head figuring out who is the best pick.ETA pt 2. If all that sounds a little too negative, I would compare Calvin more to Randy Moss than Larry Fitzgerald. A bigger Randy Moss with very high character. Thus, I agree with Who Dat's "as close to a can't miss" as possible.

Meh - 40 times are the least interesting thing to me about a WR. There have been lots of great ones who have been relatively slow in the 40, and more busts than you can shake stopwatch at who ran ridiculous 40 times. Fact is that WRs are a big crap shoot. About 1/2 of the "can't miss" prospects have missed, whether due to injury, attitude, or some other unknown reason. What I've seen with my eyes is that Calvin Johnson was a giant among boys in college, and relied on those skills. He will have to learn how to get separation, run crisp routes, and take big hits in the middle of the field. I'm not saying he can't do it, I'm just saying that his adjustment should not be taken for granted.Finally, I'm wary of the 'freaks'. Who was the last physical freak to really dominate in the NFL? Vick as a QB? David Boston for two years? It just seems like their is a reason why certain body types are common in certain positions.

 

[Chaos Commish]

Check my edit. Seriously, Johnson has elite speed. He explodes down the field and his acceleration is crazy. I can't think of many specifics, but he blew past Meriweather a couple times this year but Ball couldn't get him the ball. Meriweather is very fast. I'll guess he's right at 4.4 and he couldn't run with Calvin that day.

 

[One]

I don't think he's all that fast...

He is expected to post a blazing 40. He has been reported in the mid 4.3s with a 40+ inch verticle. That is an extraordinarily explosive athlete. He's 230+, a true freak. Moreso than any of the WRs he's being compared too. We'll see if these numbers hold up at the Combine, and I have my doubts too, but those who follow him closely have been reporting these numbers for a couple years now. He may lack some quicks, gathers at his breaks. He may be too dependent on jump ball skills. I thought Eric Weddle got in his head, had Calvin looking for him, and Calvin dropped a few with alligator arms as a sophomore in that bowl game. Extremely quick small DBs like Tye Hill have done well against him, but you have to think Calvin will win those battles in the redzone. He may not be as physical as he should be. He's like a 2 year old Great Dane. He doesn't know what he is yet, but watch out when he figures it all out. Keyshawn as his downside is really setting the bar low, and Keyshawn hasn't been that bad. I don't have an early dynasty rookie pick, and though I would love any of the top three, I'm kind of happy I don't have to trouble my head figuring out who is the best pick.ETA pt 2. If all that sounds a little too negative, I would compare Calvin more to Randy Moss than Larry Fitzgerald. A bigger Randy Moss with very high character. Thus, I agree with Who Dat's "as close to a can't miss" as possible.

Meh - 40 times are the least interesting thing to me about a WR. There have been lots of great ones who have been relatively slow in the 40, and more busts than you can shake stopwatch at who ran ridiculous 40 times. Fact is that WRs are a big crap shoot. About 1/2 of the "can't miss" prospects have missed, whether due to injury, attitude, or some other unknown reason. What I've seen with my eyes is that Calvin Johnson was a giant among boys in college, and relied on those skills. He will have to learn how to get separation, run crisp routes, and take big hits in the middle of the field. I'm not saying he can't do it, I'm just saying that his adjustment should not be taken for granted.Finally, I'm wary of the 'freaks'. Who was the last physical freak to really dominate in the NFL? Vick as a QB? David Boston for two years? It just seems like their is a reason why certain body types are common in certain positions.

I agree here. WR's are too difficult to predict, plus with the skill positions you usually use 2-3 WR's on a field at a time.. QB's & RB's only one a piece. I'd rather take my chances on RB/QB since I've yet to see one WR turn a team around.

 

[cstu]

Check my edit. Seriously, Johnson has elite speed. He explodes down the field and his acceleration is crazy. I can't think of many specifics, but he blew past Meriweather a couple this year times but Ball couldn't get him the ball. Meriweather is very fast. I'll guess he's right at 4.4 and he couldn't run with Calvin that day.

I think he'll be a great WR, but count me as a doubter on CJ's 4.4 speed. Very few players have had CJ's size and ran a 4.4 (Matt Jones and Vernon Davis) so the odds are against him doing it. That said, I see no problem if he runs a 4.45-4.50 since he's that good as a receiver.

 

[EBF]

Check my edit. Seriously, Johnson has elite speed. He explodes down the field and his acceleration is crazy. I can't think of many specifics, but he blew past Meriweather a couple times this year but Ball couldn't get him the ball. Meriweather is very fast. I'll guess he's right at 4.4 and he couldn't run with Calvin that day.

I just doesn't really see the burst of speed in his highlights. He occasionally beats people in foot races, but he doesn't run away from people like Moss. His long legs probably grant a "deceptive" quality to his speed, but I still wouldn't classify him as a burner.At the very least I'd say it takes him longer to reach top speed than he did Moss. Moss was pretty much on the Reggie Bush level in terms of speed. CJ is no snail, but I haven't seen anything to suggest similar home run speed.

 

[EBF]

Check my edit. Seriously, Johnson has elite speed. He explodes down the field and his acceleration is crazy. I can't think of many specifics, but he blew past Meriweather a couple this year times but Ball couldn't get him the ball. Meriweather is very fast. I'll guess he's right at 4.4 and he couldn't run with Calvin that day.

I think he'll be a great WR, but count me as a doubter on CJ's 4.4 speed. Very few players have had CJ's size and ran a 4.4 (Matt Jones and Vernon Davis) so the odds are against him doing it. That said, I see no problem if he runs a 4.45-4.50 since he's that good as a receiver.

I think functional speed and timed speed are two different things. Antonio Bryant and Chad Johnson are 4.6 guys. Bernard Berrian is a 4.5 guy. Does anyone doubt that they play faster than Reggie Williams (mid 4.4) and maybe even Matt Jones (mid 4.3)? Running out of a track stance on an artificial surface just isn't the same as running routes on a football field with pads on. Calvin might surprise us with a nasty time, but I don't see that elite speed on the field. That doesn't mean he won't be great. I think he's the best skill position prospect available this year.

 

[Chaos Commish]

Check my edit. Seriously, Johnson has elite speed. He explodes down the field and his acceleration is crazy. I can't think of many specifics, but he blew past Meriweather a couple times this year but Ball couldn't get him the ball. Meriweather is very fast. I'll guess he's right at 4.4 and he couldn't run with Calvin that day.

I just doesn't really see the burst of speed in his highlights. He occasionally beats people in foot races, but he doesn't run away from people like Moss. His long legs probably grant a "deceptive" quality to his speed, but I still wouldn't classify him as a burner.At the very least I'd say it takes him longer to reach top speed than he did Moss. Moss was pretty much on the Reggie Bush level in terms of speed. CJ is no snail, but I haven't seen anything to suggest similar home run speed.

Georgia Tech director of player development Eric Ciano is a pretty solid source, no?I think you can see enough of a wide receiver with enough highlights to make a pretty solid assessment, but Calvin's highlights present a bit of a dilemma. His QB threw so many horrid passes and Calvin made so many unbelievable catches that long bombs are a little boring for him. He had two long TDs against Virginia where he just ran past everyone. Some were watching that game here in the FFA and we were laughing about how easy he makes it look. I compared him to Randy, but never said he was as fast. He is bigger and stronger with better hands, and very very fast. He does somethings adjusting for the ball like Randy at his best. But he is much closer to Moss speed than Fitz or Keyshawn.

 

[EBF]

I compared him to Randy, but never said he was as fast. He is bigger and stronger with better hands, and very very fast. He does somethings adjusting for the ball like Randy at his best. But he is much closer to Moss speed than Fitz or Keyshawn.

Moss in his prime was a guy who could take a five yard pass and outrun everyone to the end zone. I don't see that kind of home run speed in CJ2. He strikes me as a guy who can get open and make absurdly tough catches. But he doesn't usually make a ton happen after the catch like a true burner would. I also think you're selling Fitz's speed a little short. I think he was able to get his time down in the 4.45-4.50 range when he was entering the league. It's hard for me to imagine Calvin running a whole lot faster than that.

 

[titanT]

I have a hard time seeing Ginn break 4.3 at the combine. It just rarely ever happens.

As for CJ, I see him running a sub 4.4 - that's blazing for 235

Reading the article... wow 43 inch vert and 330 clean, 11-2 standing long jump

To those comparing him to BMW and Chuck Rogers,

 

[jurb26]

Check my edit. Seriously, Johnson has elite speed. He explodes down the field and his acceleration is crazy. I can't think of many specifics, but he blew past Meriweather a couple times this year but Ball couldn't get him the ball. Meriweather is very fast. I'll guess he's right at 4.4 and he couldn't run with Calvin that day.

I just doesn't really see the burst of speed in his highlights. He occasionally beats people in foot races, but he doesn't run away from people like Moss. His long legs probably grant a "deceptive" quality to his speed, but I still wouldn't classify him as a burner.At the very least I'd say it takes him longer to reach top speed than he did Moss. Moss was pretty much on the Reggie Bush level in terms of speed. CJ is no snail, but I haven't seen anything to suggest similar home run speed.

:XGeorgia Tech director of player development Eric Ciano is a pretty solid source, no?I think you can see enough of a wide receiver with enough highlights to make a pretty solid assessment, but Calvin's highlights present a bit of a dilemma. His QB threw so many horrid passes and Calvin made so many unbelievable catches that long bombs are a little boring for him. He had two long TDs against Virginia where he just ran past everyone. Some were watching that game here in the FFA and we were laughing about how easy he makes it look. I compared him to Randy, but never said he was as fast. He is bigger and stronger with better hands, and very very fast. He does somethings adjusting for the ball like Randy at his best. But he is much closer to Moss speed than Fitz or Keyshawn.

I have to agree with EBF. I watched Calvin this year and I never once got the impression of a "burner." Not even a college burner. He has good speed, very good for NCAA. But never the kind that other, elite speed guys have had. He may well run a nice time. I just happen to agree with EBF that I don't think what ever great speed you and the GTech director of player development (possibly a little bias, no?) claim he has translated on the field as much. I really don't see anything wrong with him running in the 4.4s. The guy is huge, strong, jumps out of the gym and has sick ball skills. I know he has good enough speed to play in the NFL and that's all that really matters. I just don't see him in the elite range.

 

[billyjoe]

I'm not sure Fitz is a good match.

I see him as more of a TO type. Very physical. TO doesn't have insane speed. But TO will out work and out muscle you. TO also has very good ability to adjust to a ball midair. Which is exactly what CJ2 can do.

CJ2 will eat up smaller CBs like TO does. Fitz is too finesse.

 

[Chaos Commish]

Check my edit. Seriously, Johnson has elite speed. He explodes down the field and his acceleration is crazy. I can't think of many specifics, but he blew past Meriweather a couple times this year but Ball couldn't get him the ball. Meriweather is very fast. I'll guess he's right at 4.4 and he couldn't run with Calvin that day.

I just doesn't really see the burst of speed in his highlights. He occasionally beats people in foot races, but he doesn't run away from people like Moss. His long legs probably grant a "deceptive" quality to his speed, but I still wouldn't classify him as a burner.At the very least I'd say it takes him longer to reach top speed than he did Moss. Moss was pretty much on the Reggie Bush level in terms of speed. CJ is no snail, but I haven't seen anything to suggest similar home run speed.

:XGeorgia Tech director of player development Eric Ciano is a pretty solid source, no?I think you can see enough of a wide receiver with enough highlights to make a pretty solid assessment, but Calvin's highlights present a bit of a dilemma. His QB threw so many horrid passes and Calvin made so many unbelievable catches that long bombs are a little boring for him. He had two long TDs against Virginia where he just ran past everyone. Some were watching that game here in the FFA and we were laughing about how easy he makes it look. I compared him to Randy, but never said he was as fast. He is bigger and stronger with better hands, and very very fast. He does somethings adjusting for the ball like Randy at his best. But he is much closer to Moss speed than Fitz or Keyshawn.

I have to agree with EBF. I watched Calvin this year and I never once got the impression of a "burner." Not even a college burner. He has good speed, very good for NCAA. But never the kind that other, elite speed guys have had. He may well run a nice time. I just happen to agree with EBF that I don't think what ever great speed you and the GTech director of player development (possibly a little bias, no?) claim he has translated on the field as much. I really don't see anything wrong with him running in the 4.4s. The guy is huge, strong, jumps out of the gym and has sick ball skills. I know he has good enough speed to play in the NFL and that's all that really matters. I just don't see him in the elite range.

Fair enough. It isn't worth about.

 

[Splicer]

Don't forget Boldin only ran a 4.6. He seems to have no problem gaining separation and taking it to the house. I am of the belief that straight-line speed is over-rated in WR's. How often do they get a chance to run 40 yards untouched and in a straight line? Almost never. You don't want the guy to be a slob, but he doesn't have tot be the fastest in the world either.

 

[-OZ-]

Meh - 40 times are the least interesting thing to me about a WR. There have been lots of great ones who have been relatively slow in the 40, and more busts than you can shake stopwatch at who ran ridiculous 40 times. Fact is that WRs are a big crap shoot. About 1/2 of the "can't miss" prospects have missed, whether due to injury, attitude, or some other unknown reason. What I've seen with my eyes is that Calvin Johnson was a giant among boys in college, and relied on those skills. He will have to learn how to get separation, run crisp routes, and take big hits in the middle of the field. I'm not saying he can't do it, I'm just saying that his adjustment should not be taken for granted.Finally, I'm wary of the 'freaks'. Who was the last physical freak to really dominate in the NFL? Vick as a QB? David Boston for two years? It just seems like their is a reason why certain body types are common in certain positions.

There's still a few "freaks" drafted in the last couple years who have played well when healthy. Thank you for finally saying what I'm thinking throughout every post here. Speed is a assett, but tends to be overrated. Speed + hands + character + work ethic, now you're talking. CJ seems to have those 4 attributes, so I'm not worried about him being a bust, but I can see a Keyshawn type career. (which is still pretty dang good)

 

[billyjoe]

Don't forget Boldin only ran a 4.6. He seems to have no problem gaining separation and taking it to the house. I am of the belief that straight-line speed is over-rated in WR's. How often do they get a chance to run 40 yards untouched and in a straight line? Almost never. You don't want the guy to be a slob, but he doesn't have tot be the fastest in the world either.

I agree 100%.Mario Manningham to me is one of the fastest guys out of his break I've seen in a long time. I have no doubt he'll be a much better pro then Ginn.

 

[Chaos Commish]

Meh - 40 times are the least interesting thing to me about a WR. There have been lots of great ones who have been relatively slow in the 40, and more busts than you can shake stopwatch at who ran ridiculous 40 times. Fact is that WRs are a big crap shoot. About 1/2 of the "can't miss" prospects have missed, whether due to injury, attitude, or some other unknown reason. What I've seen with my eyes is that Calvin Johnson was a giant among boys in college, and relied on those skills. He will have to learn how to get separation, run crisp routes, and take big hits in the middle of the field. I'm not saying he can't do it, I'm just saying that his adjustment should not be taken for granted.Finally, I'm wary of the 'freaks'. Who was the last physical freak to really dominate in the NFL? Vick as a QB? David Boston for two years? It just seems like their is a reason why certain body types are common in certain positions.

There's still a few "freaks" drafted in the last couple years who have played well when healthy. Thank you for finally saying what I'm thinking throughout every post here.

The NFL is fairly heavily populated with dominating freaks. I guess it would depend on definition of freak, but Tomlinson had a freakish combine has worked like mad to become more of a freak and he is dominating. AJohnson was a complete freak and just led the NFL in receptions. The aforementioned Moss was a super freak and he was dominant back in the day. Owens is a freak capable of dominating. Bush was the freak RB of the last draft and he's just scratching the surface. Merriman was an ultra freak and there is no more dominant defender in the NFL. Hawk was a measurable freak and he's a good one. Urlacher is unreal and a freak from back in his day. McNeill was a total freak among OLs last year and he dominated as a rookie.

 

[Z-Dog]

Meh - 40 times are the least interesting thing to me about a WR. There have been lots of great ones who have been relatively slow in the 40, and more busts than you can shake stopwatch at who ran ridiculous 40 times. Fact is that WRs are a big crap shoot. About 1/2 of the "can't miss" prospects have missed, whether due to injury, attitude, or some other unknown reason. What I've seen with my eyes is that Calvin Johnson was a giant among boys in college, and relied on those skills. He will have to learn how to get separation, run crisp routes, and take big hits in the middle of the field. I'm not saying he can't do it, I'm just saying that his adjustment should not be taken for granted.Finally, I'm wary of the 'freaks'. Who was the last physical freak to really dominate in the NFL? Vick as a QB? David Boston for two years? It just seems like their is a reason why certain body types are common in certain positions.

There's still a few "freaks" drafted in the last couple years who have played well when healthy. Thank you for finally saying what I'm thinking throughout every post here. Speed is a assett, but tends to be overrated. Speed + hands + character + work ethic, now you're talking. CJ seems to have those 4 attributes, so I'm not worried about him being a bust, but I can see a Keyshawn type career. (which is still pretty dang good)

To me the most important thing to look at, if I can only look at one thing, is hands. It just seems like butterfingered WRs stay that way, while guys with great hands often find their way on the field even if they are small, or not so fast. I really can't think of too many WRs with questionable hands who developed into sure-handed WRs, but I can think of lots of sure-handed guys who wound up having terrific careers, and remained productive even when their other skills declined. They make great bench players in dynsaty format.

 

[beef]

keyshawn johnson part 2

any wr will look fast against acc dbacks.

let me edit here. i think cj is a hell of a wr, one of the best wr prospects i've seen in years. i just can't follow the hype quite yet. i need to see some real speed and quickness before i'm willing to see cj as the next coming. until then, a slightly better kj2. which insn't a bad thing, but just not uber wr level.

 

[EBF]

Meh - 40 times are the least interesting thing to me about a WR. There have been lots of great ones who have been relatively slow in the 40, and more busts than you can shake stopwatch at who ran ridiculous 40 times. Fact is that WRs are a big crap shoot. About 1/2 of the "can't miss" prospects have missed, whether due to injury, attitude, or some other unknown reason. What I've seen with my eyes is that Calvin Johnson was a giant among boys in college, and relied on those skills. He will have to learn how to get separation, run crisp routes, and take big hits in the middle of the field. I'm not saying he can't do it, I'm just saying that his adjustment should not be taken for granted.Finally, I'm wary of the 'freaks'. Who was the last physical freak to really dominate in the NFL? Vick as a QB? David Boston for two years? It just seems like their is a reason why certain body types are common in certain positions.

There's still a few "freaks" drafted in the last couple years who have played well when healthy. Thank you for finally saying what I'm thinking throughout every post here. Speed is a assett, but tends to be overrated. Speed + hands + character + work ethic, now you're talking. CJ seems to have those 4 attributes, so I'm not worried about him being a bust, but I can see a Keyshawn type career. (which is still pretty dang good)

To me the most important thing to look at, if I can only look at one thing, is hands. It just seems like butterfingered WRs stay that way, while guys with great hands often find their way on the field even if they are small, or not so fast. I really can't think of too many WRs with questionable hands who developed into sure-handed WRs, but I can think of lots of sure-handed guys who wound up having terrific careers, and remained productive even when their other skills declined. They make great bench players in dynsaty format.

I tend to agree. There's a difference between athletes and football players. Tyrone Calico and Quincy Morgan were athletes. It didn't do them a shred of good on the gridiron. One thing I love about Jarrett and Johnson is the way they attack the football. They're not just big guys who can run. They can play the game.

 

[Z-Dog]

I'm a big Jarrett fan myself. I think he'll be the best in his class.

 

[bez18]

Calvin is going to be a stud... no question. Period!