Can someone splain to me why John Elway is considered the greatest QB (1 Viewer)

[Hang 10]

Positives:

Prototypical NFL size - 6'-3" 215lbs

Great arm

Good mobility

Negatives:

Average college stats

I mean, I get that he was "winner" in the NFL but his stats were nothing spectacular either. I'm just not sure why draft-nicks consider him the be all end all of QB prospects.

 

[Hang 10]

Just saw one of those roundtable discussions with Difler, Kiper and Mortenson and they were discussing Luck. Kiper mentioned (as he has often) that Luck is the best prospect since Elway and Mortenson treated that statement like it was sacrilege. Like there was no comparison..."Elway was better than Luck when he was still in highschool".

Huh? I just don't understand the pedestal they put Elway on.

 

[the turnip]

It's NOT the slack jaw open mouth stare, thats for sure.

 

[RUSF18]

Prospects aren't graded based on statistics. QBs are graded based on velocity, accuracy, footwork, delivery, etc. Apparently Elway was the end-all be-all in that regard.

 

[Please See Mine]

Is this really important to you?

 

[Hang 10]

Is this really important to you?

Define important? It's Important enough to me to ask the question on a Friday afternoon when I'm bored a work.

 

[Christo]

Nobody's stats in the late 70s were spectacular.

Elway

G Comp Att % Yds TD Int

9 50 96 52.1 544 6 3

11 248 379 65.4 2889 27 11

11 214 366 58.5 2674 20 13

11 262 405 64.7 3242 24 12

Marino

11 130 222 58.6 1680 10 9

11 116 224 51.8 1609 15 14

11 226 380 59.5 2876 37 23

11 221 378 58.5 2432 17 23

Montana

7 28 66 42.4 507 4 8

9 99 189 52.4 1604 11 8

11 141 260 54.2 2010 10 9

Plus Stanford pretty much stunk when he was there.

 

[Crazy Tony]

Because he's white?

 

[NeverEnough]

Marino > Elway

 

[Riffraff]

It says something about a kid's arm when both the NFL and MLB were drafting him. Drafted by the Royals in 1979 and then the Yankees in 1981.

Per Wiki he had 60 scholarship invitations coming out of High School as the #1 prospect.

Being the son of a football coach probably helped in more ways than can be put on paper.

Went to a "smart" school, graduating with a degree in Economics. Physical phenom + has brains.

Excellent mechanics, pedigree, long history of excellence, brain smarts + football smarts, and exceptionally gifted physically. Heck of a package.

 

[ConnSKINS26]

Marino > Elway

As an NFL quarterback? That's a matter of personal preference and you could be right.But not as a prospect. Which is the point of the thread.

 

[ImTheScientist]

Most of you newbs only remember Elway at the end of his career. That is why you don't understand.

 

[Boston]

The football equivalent of Rob Hobbs...name a category that scouts grade a QB on and Elway was an A+...throw in the coach's son angle and you have a prospect that was as close to a "can't miss" as you will ever see come out of college...

 

[Hang 10]

Most of you newbs only remember Elway at the end of his career. That is why you don't understand.

The end of Elways career was MUCH better than the beginning...both in wins & statistics. Hell, he didnt crack 60% completions until 93 & his TD to INT ratio was terrible. But I guess he beat the browns a couple times....so there's that.

 

[golfguy]

Most of you newbs only remember Elway at the end of his career. That is why you don't understand.

The end of Elways career was MUCH better than the beginning...both in wins & statistics. Hell, he didnt crack 60% completions until 93 & his TD to INT ratio was terrible. But I guess he beat the browns a couple times....so there's that.

like he said you don't get it. he took 3 very subpar teams to the super bowl on his back. his wrs were never very good, and he vary rarely had a good rb before t.davis. being a great nfl qb is a lot more then just stats.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

being a great nfl qb player is a lot more then just stats.

 

[Synesthesia]

It says something about a kid's arm when both the NFL and MLB were drafting him. Drafted by the Royals in 1979 and then the Yankees in 1981.Per Wiki he had 60 scholarship invitations coming out of High School as the #1 prospect.Being the son of a football coach probably helped in more ways than can be put on paper.Went to a "smart" school, graduating with a degree in Economics. Physical phenom + has brains. Excellent mechanics, pedigree, long history of excellence, brain smarts + football smarts, and exceptionally gifted physically. Heck of a package.

The football equivalent of Rob Hobbs...name a category that scouts grade a QB on and Elway was an A+...throw in the coach's son angle and you have a prospect that was as close to a "can't miss" as you will ever see come out of college...

What they said. Heisman finalist on a bad team. Elite physical specimen from a football family. There's a reason why every QB picked 1st for the last 30 years has gotten compared to him.

 

[Hang 10]

Most of you newbs only remember Elway at the end of his career. That is why you don't understand.

The end of Elways career was MUCH better than the beginning...both in wins & statistics. Hell, he didnt crack 60% completions until 93 & his TD to INT ratio was terrible. But I guess he beat the browns a couple times....so there's that.

like he said you don't get it. he took 3 very subpar teams to the super bowl on his back. his wrs were never very good, and he vary rarely had a good rb before t.davis. being a great nfl qb is a lot more then just stats.

So he was the original Tebow?

 

[az_prof]

He's not in my book.

 

[5Rings]

Most of you newbs only remember Elway at the end of his career. That is why you don't understand.

The end of Elways career was MUCH better than the beginning...both in wins & statistics. Hell, he didnt crack 60% completions until 93 & his TD to INT ratio was terrible. But I guess he beat the browns a couple times....so there's that.

like he said you don't get it. he took 3 very subpar teams to the super bowl on his back. his wrs were never very good, and he vary rarely had a good rb before t.davis. being a great nfl qb is a lot more then just stats.

nonsense

 

[BigSteelThrill]

He's not in my book.

not the greatest qb prospect? who was higher?

 

[Abraham]

Manning.

 

[Synesthesia]

Manning.

As a prospect, Peyton Manning was Elway minus the wheels. Same arm, same head, same ethic and drive, same polish, but Elway added elite enough athleticism on top of that to make him a top baseball prospect, as well.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

... he took 3 very subpar teams to the super bowl on his back. his ...

Elway was closer to the weak link on those teams than anything else.

 

[grateful zed]

elway played poker at stocks last year, he lost.

 

[voiceofunreason]

... he took 3 very subpar teams to the super bowl on his back. his ...

Elway was closer to the weak link on those teams than anything else.

Lol, wow. Unfortunately I think you're actually serious.

 

[ShaqAttaq]

... he took 3 very subpar teams to the super bowl on his back. his ...

Elway was closer to the weak link on those teams than anything else.

Lol, wow. Unfortunately I think you're actually serious.

those 3 super bowl losing teams in the late 80s were teams that were predominantly carried by elway.

 

[Hang 10]

... he took 3 very subpar teams to the super bowl on his back. his ...

Elway was closer to the weak link on those teams than anything else.

Lol, wow. Unfortunately I think you're actually serious.

those 3 super bowl losing teams in the late 80s were teams that were predominantly carried by elway.

Those teams ALL had top ten defenses. Also it's kinda hard to carry a team when you throw less 20 touchdown passes. John Sanchez maybe? Tim Elway?

 

[Christo]

... he took 3 very subpar teams to the super bowl on his back. his ...

Elway was closer to the weak link on those teams than anything else.

Say what now?

 

[Christo]

... he took 3 very subpar teams to the super bowl on his back. his ...

Elway was closer to the weak link on those teams than anything else.

Lol, wow. Unfortunately I think you're actually serious.

those 3 super bowl losing teams in the late 80s were teams that were predominantly carried by elway.

Those teams ALL had top ten defenses. Also it's kinda hard to carry a team when you throw less 20 touchdown passes. John Sanchez maybe? Tim Elway?

How many teams with top 10 defenses don't even make it to the SB? At least 8 every year.

 

[Hang 10]

... he took 3 very subpar teams to the super bowl on his back. his ...

Elway was closer to the weak link on those teams than anything else.

Lol, wow. Unfortunately I think you're actually serious.

those 3 super bowl losing teams in the late 80s were teams that were predominantly carried by elway.

Those teams ALL had top ten defenses. Also it's kinda hard to carry a team when you throw less 20 touchdown passes. John Sanchez maybe? Tim Elway?

How many teams with top 10 defenses don't even make it to the SB? At least 8 every year.

Never said it wasn't an accomplishment to get to the super bowl...just dispelling the myth that Elway willed talentless teams to the super bowl all by his lonesome. The AFC was also terrible in the 80s...which obviously played a part in John Flacco's super bowl runs.

 

[moleculo]

... he took 3 very subpar teams to the super bowl on his back. his ...

Elway was closer to the weak link on those teams than anything else.

Lol, wow. Unfortunately I think you're actually serious.

those 3 super bowl losing teams in the late 80s were teams that were predominantly carried by elway.

Those teams ALL had top ten defenses. Also it's kinda hard to carry a team when you throw less 20 touchdown passes. John Sanchez maybe? Tim Elway?

How many teams with top 10 defenses don't even make it to the SB? At least 8 every year.

Never said it wasn't an accomplishment to get to the super bowl...just dispelling the myth that Elway willed talentless teams to the super bowl all by his lonesome. The AFC was also terrible in the 80s...which obviously played a part in John Flacco's super bowl runs.

you must have been born in the 90's. Those Bronco teams were not talentless, but please do not compare 80's Elway to Sanchez or Flacco.Elways stats and contributions were limited by an ultra-conservative coach in Dan Reeves. Just look at the spike statistically when Reeves was let go. Dan Reeves made Wade Phillips look dynamic and innovative. I'm not saying Reeves is a bad coach because he had success with the style of ball he wanted in Denver, but it was not an offense designed to let a stud QB flourish. 1st down: dive up the middle. 2nd down: sweep left. 3rd down: middle screen, repeat. Until 4th quarter when if Denver was down it was "to hell with the game plan, go win it John".

 

[moleculo]

Most of you newbs only remember Elway at the end of his career. That is why you don't understand.

The end of Elways career was MUCH better than the beginning...both in wins & statistics. Hell, he didnt crack 60% completions until 93 & his TD to INT ratio was terrible. But I guess he beat the browns a couple times....so there's that.

it's odd that you mentioned 1993. Before 1993, elway never had a QB rating over 85. After 1993 ,he never had a QB rating below 85. Before 1993 he threw for 20 or more TD's once. After 1993, he threw for 20 or fewer TD's once. Wanna guess what happened in Denver in 1993?

 

[DoubleG]

Most of you newbs only remember Elway at the end of his career. That is why you don't understand.

The end of Elways career was MUCH better than the beginning...both in wins & statistics. Hell, he didnt crack 60% completions until 93 & his TD to INT ratio was terrible. But I guess he beat the browns a couple times....so there's that.

(for the most part). Elway is considered the best prospect in large part because he was (finally) succesful in the end. For every highly touted/can't miss Elway, there have been Ryan Leaf*, Tim Couch, Jeff George, Rick Mirer*, David Carr, Alex Smith, Jamarcus Russel, etc., etc., etc. (*- these guys were #2 overall - the rest all #1 picks).

 

[Ack88]

Remember that the prospect rankings focus primarily on physical, measureable characterisitics. Elway possessed everything that scouts look for in a prospect: he had an A+ arm, could make every throw, could run like the wind, and fully satisifed the height and weight metrics scouts look for. Scouts generally don't place the same value on statistics that we do; they look more towards projecting a skill set to the pro game, and Elway had it all. He may not be the best QB of all time BUT he was awesome. The thre teams he took to the super bowl during the 80s were no better than .500 squads without him. Their defenses were equal parta small and slow, they had no business getting there, but Elway did it.

 

[Hang 10]

... he took 3 very subpar teams to the super bowl on his back. his ...

Elway was closer to the weak link on those teams than anything else.

Lol, wow. Unfortunately I think you're actually serious.

those 3 super bowl losing teams in the late 80s were teams that were predominantly carried by elway.

Those teams ALL had top ten defenses. Also it's kinda hard to carry a team when you throw less 20 touchdown passes. John Sanchez maybe? Tim Elway?

How many teams with top 10 defenses don't even make it to the SB? At least 8 every year.

Never said it wasn't an accomplishment to get to the super bowl...just dispelling the myth that Elway willed talentless teams to the super bowl all by his lonesome. The AFC was also terrible in the 80s...which obviously played a part in John Flacco's super bowl runs.

you must have been born in the 90's. Those Bronco teams were not talentless, but please do not compare 80's Elway to Sanchez or Flacco.Elways stats and contributions were limited by an ultra-conservative coach in Dan Reeves. Just look at the spike statistically when Reeves was let go. Dan Reeves made Wade Phillips look dynamic and innovative. I'm not saying Reeves is a bad coach because he had success with the style of ball he wanted in Denver, but it was not an offense designed to let a stud QB flourish. 1st down: dive up the middle. 2nd down: sweep left. 3rd down: middle screen, repeat. Until 4th quarter when if Denver was down it was "to hell with the game plan, go win it John".

Born in 78 How does having a conservative coach translate into terrible TD to INT ratios & completion percentages? Maybe the conservative coach deserves a little credit for getting his team to the super bowl. He did get there with Chris Chandler...he wasn't an alltime great, was he?

 

[moleculo]

... he took 3 very subpar teams to the super bowl on his back. his ...

Elway was closer to the weak link on those teams than anything else.

Lol, wow. Unfortunately I think you're actually serious.

those 3 super bowl losing teams in the late 80s were teams that were predominantly carried by elway.

Those teams ALL had top ten defenses. Also it's kinda hard to carry a team when you throw less 20 touchdown passes. John Sanchez maybe? Tim Elway?

How many teams with top 10 defenses don't even make it to the SB? At least 8 every year.

Never said it wasn't an accomplishment to get to the super bowl...just dispelling the myth that Elway willed talentless teams to the super bowl all by his lonesome. The AFC was also terrible in the 80s...which obviously played a part in John Flacco's super bowl runs.

you must have been born in the 90's. Those Bronco teams were not talentless, but please do not compare 80's Elway to Sanchez or Flacco.Elways stats and contributions were limited by an ultra-conservative coach in Dan Reeves. Just look at the spike statistically when Reeves was let go. Dan Reeves made Wade Phillips look dynamic and innovative. I'm not saying Reeves is a bad coach because he had success with the style of ball he wanted in Denver, but it was not an offense designed to let a stud QB flourish. 1st down: dive up the middle. 2nd down: sweep left. 3rd down: middle screen, repeat. Until 4th quarter when if Denver was down it was "to hell with the game plan, go win it John".

Born in 78 How does having a conservative coach translate into terrible TD to INT ratios & completion percentages? Maybe the conservative coach deserves a little credit for getting his team to the super bowl. He did get there with Chris Chandler...he wasn't an alltime great, was he?

I give Reeves all the credit in the world, but I do knock him for the impact he had on Elway's legacy and wonder what more he could have done if he allowed the offense to open up, especially when coupled with Reeves' defenses. In 1992, Reeves last year, the Broncos had the 22nd (out of 28) best offenses. When Phillips took over in 1993, they jumped to top 3, but the defense stunk. And Phillips was supposed to be a defensive guy...go figure.As to your first question, when a QB throws mostly in predictable and unfavorable situations (i.e. 3rd and long, or in the 4th quarter when behind), he won't have nearly the same success that he would when running the ball is a realistic option. I don't have the stats to back this up, BTW. This is based on my vague memories and recollections from 20+ years ago.

 

[Ilov80s]

Nobody's stats in the late 70s were spectacular.ElwayG Comp Att % Yds TD Int9 50 96 52.1 544 6 311 248 379 65.4 2889 27 1111 214 366 58.5 2674 20 1311 262 405 64.7 3242 24 12Marino11 130 222 58.6 1680 10 911 116 224 51.8 1609 15 1411 226 380 59.5 2876 37 2311 221 378 58.5 2432 17 23Montana7 28 66 42.4 507 4 89 99 189 52.4 1604 11 811 141 260 54.2 2010 10 9Plus Stanford pretty much stunk when he was there.

Elway's senior year was fantastic for that era: 65% completion percentage, 2:1 TD:INT ratio, 3,000 yards. He finished 2nd for the Heisman on a 5-6 team.

 

[CalBear]

Elway's senior year was fantastic for that era: 65% completion percentage, 2:1 TD:INT ratio, 3,000 yards. He finished 2nd for the Heisman on a 5-6 team.

Too bad he blew the 1982 Big Game by calling time out too early...

 

[jackdubl]

Manning.

As a prospect, Peyton Manning was Elway minus the wheels. Same arm, same head, same ethic and drive, same polish, but Elway added elite enough athleticism on top of that to make him a top baseball prospect, as well.

Saying Manning and Elway had the same arm is LAUGHABLE! Elway had one of THE strongest arms the league has ever seen.

How does having a conservative coach translate into terrible TD to INT ratios & completion percentages? Maybe the conservative coach deserves a little credit for getting his team to the super bowl. He did get there with Chris Chandler...he wasn't an alltime great, was he?

How many SB's did the conservative coach get to with Elway and how many without? How many SB's did the conservative coach win without Elway, and how many did Elway win without the conservative coach? Reeves was Marty Schottemheimer. He's an asset if it's a subpar offense, a liability if it's an explosive offense.

 

[menobrown]

I thought and continue to think Elway was one of the most over rated QB's of all-time. Like early in his career he would get lauded for making 4th quarter comebacks to which I always thought (1) why have you not been playing like that the entire game and (2) if you had been playing like that the entire game there would be no reason for a dramatic 4th quarter comeback.

So while I thought the product on the field was overrated I do think if you examine each QB prospect at the time they were drafted he'd rate the highest of all-time.

Prototypical size, extremely good speed, arm strength on the level as anyone ever, no injury red flags. Combine that with intelligence and being the son of a coach and it add's up to just about a perfect prospect.

 

[CalBear]

The real answer to this question is: Hindsight and confirmation bias.

For anyone to be claimed as "the greatest prospect ever", they'd need to have been selected #1 overall, and had a successful NFL career (hindsight). That greatly reduces the competition here. Here's a list of #1 overall QB picks in the Super Bowl era who won at least one Super Bowl:

Eli Manning

Peyton Manning

Troy Aikman

Steve Young (* supplemental)

John Elway

Jim Plunkett

Terry Bradshaw

So really, not a very impressive list. Young doesn't count because he went to the USFL first, and it's obvious that Plunkett, Bradshaw, and Eli were not highly regarded as can't-miss prospects. So essentially you're comparing Elway to Peyton and Aikman. Aikman was good but not on the same level.

So, all the top prospects now are either "the best prospect since Manning" or "the best prospect since Elway". Those things get repeated enough that they become accepted as gospel, but I don't think that if Elway came out in the same draft as, say, Vick, that Elway would have been taken first. I am certain that if Manning and Elway came out in the same draft that Manning (all the physical tools, great college success, son of a QB/coach) would have been selected over Elway who had never managed to make a bowl game.

 

[Hang 10]

The real answer to this question is: Hindsight and confirmation bias.For anyone to be claimed as "the greatest prospect ever", they'd need to have been selected #1 overall, and had a successful NFL career (hindsight). That greatly reduces the competition here. Here's a list of #1 overall QB picks in the Super Bowl era who won at least one Super Bowl:Eli ManningPeyton ManningTroy AikmanSteve Young (* supplemental)John ElwayJim PlunkettTerry BradshawSo really, not a very impressive list. Young doesn't count because he went to the USFL first, and it's obvious that Plunkett, Bradshaw, and Eli were not highly regarded as can't-miss prospects. So essentially you're comparing Elway to Peyton and Aikman. Aikman was good but not on the same level. So, all the top prospects now are either "the best prospect since Manning" or "the best prospect since Elway". Those things get repeated enough that they become accepted as gospel, but I don't think that if Elway came out in the same draft as, say, Vick, that Elway would have been taken first. I am certain that if Manning and Elway came out in the same draft that Manning (all the physical tools, great college success, son of a QB/coach) would have been selected over Elway who had never managed to make a bowl game.

Very well said.

 

[gump]

Manning.

As a prospect, Peyton Manning was Elway minus the wheels. Same arm, same head, same ethic and drive, same polish, but Elway added elite enough athleticism on top of that to make him a top baseball prospect, as well.

Saying Manning and Elway had the same arm is LAUGHABLE! Elway had one of THE strongest arms the league has ever seen.

There are 2 QBs who I've heard described by players as throwing a ball you could hear....Namath and Elway. Both also were known for leaving marks on their receivers...the 'Elway cross'.Phil Simms talked about being floored when he warmed up near a rookie Elway.There are certain players that had a skill that was so elite, the worlds best athletes would stop and stare....Bo's power and speed, etc....Elway's arm was that.

 

[Synesthesia]

... he took 3 very subpar teams to the super bowl on his back. his ...

Elway was closer to the weak link on those teams than anything else.

Lol, wow. Unfortunately I think you're actually serious.

those 3 super bowl losing teams in the late 80s were teams that were predominantly carried by elway.

Those teams ALL had top ten defenses. Also it's kinda hard to carry a team when you throw less 20 touchdown passes. John Sanchez maybe? Tim Elway?

You have a funny definition of top 10. 9th in yards allowed and 15th in points allowed hardly strikes me as a "top 10" defense. In 1989, sure, but the '86 and '87 defenses were not the strength of the team.

 

[Synesthesia]

The real answer to this question is: Hindsight and confirmation bias.For anyone to be claimed as "the greatest prospect ever", they'd need to have been selected #1 overall, and had a successful NFL career (hindsight). That greatly reduces the competition here. Here's a list of #1 overall QB picks in the Super Bowl era who won at least one Super Bowl:Eli ManningPeyton ManningTroy AikmanSteve Young (* supplemental)John ElwayJim PlunkettTerry BradshawSo really, not a very impressive list. Young doesn't count because he went to the USFL first, and it's obvious that Plunkett, Bradshaw, and Eli were not highly regarded as can't-miss prospects. So essentially you're comparing Elway to Peyton and Aikman. Aikman was good but not on the same level. So, all the top prospects now are either "the best prospect since Manning" or "the best prospect since Elway". Those things get repeated enough that they become accepted as gospel, but I don't think that if Elway came out in the same draft as, say, Vick, that Elway would have been taken first. I am certain that if Manning and Elway came out in the same draft that Manning (all the physical tools, great college success, son of a QB/coach) would have been selected over Elway who had never managed to make a bowl game.

Yeah. Or not. I've seen plenty of people call Rogers one of the top WR prospects of the last 20 years (which he was- Calvin, Larry, and Rogers were the top three prospects of the last decade, at least). I've heard people talk about what a great prospect Testeverde was. Casual fans fall prey to hindsight bias all the time, but the professional scouts can fondly recall guys they loved who wound up washing out or disappointing.Instead of this "hindsight bias" theory, I'm going to stick with the "Heisman runner up with a coach for a father, no mechanical flaws, and measurables which had never before been seen" theory.

 

[Despyzer]

When Elway was being regarded by draft experts in 1983, he was called the best prospect since Joe Namath. When Jeff George was getting evaluated seven years later, HE was called the best prospect since Joe Namath. This would seem to suggest that the prospects should be ranked: 1. Namath, 2. George, 3. Elway.

 

[CalBear]

Yeah. Or not. I've seen plenty of people call Rogers one of the top WR prospects of the last 20 years (which he was- Calvin, Larry, and Rogers were the top three prospects of the last decade, at least). I've heard people talk about what a great prospect Testeverde was. Casual fans fall prey to hindsight bias all the time, but the professional scouts can fondly recall guys they loved who wound up washing out or disappointing.

Look, no one is going to claim that Rodgers was the greatest QB prospect of all time when he didn't go #1 overall. Likewise, no one is going to say "Luck is the greatest QB prospect since David Carr" when Carr flamed out. If Luck succeeds, the next highly touted QB will become "the greatest QB prospect since Andrew Luck". If Luck fails, it will still be "the greatest QB prospect since Manning/Elway."

 

[moleculo]

When Elway was being regarded by draft experts in 1983, he was called the best prospect since Joe Namath. When Jeff George was getting evaluated seven years later, HE was called the best prospect since Joe Namath. This would seem to suggest that the prospects should be ranked: 1. Namath, 2. George, 3. Elway.

take it to the test forum.

 

[Tony Soprano]

When Elway was being regarded by draft experts in 1983, he was called the best prospect since Joe Namath. When Jeff George was getting evaluated seven years later, HE was called the best prospect since Joe Namath. This would seem to suggest that the prospects should be ranked: 1. Namath, 2. George, 3. Elway.

If Elway's arm was an "A+", George's was "A+++". Absolute cannon for an arm, with an easy flick of the wrist when releasing the ball. For the youngsters, pull up some Youtube video of his release.Too bad he was such a whiny nutjob... he had the physical tools to be the best to ever play the position IMHO.