What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Can you explain why you have faith in your religion? (1 Viewer)

Most people cannot explain why they have faith in anything. You could ask similar questions like "why do you have faith in a political party, a political system, your yoga teacher, the brand of car that you buy, your closest friends, that your cell phone service wont cut out, that your favorite video game developer will never design a bad video game and that it is a sin to suggest they might", and most people couldn't answer those very well either.

So I don't know what the Otis is trying to prove, or what he is expecting to hear. Even if he got a really good answer, it wouldn't explain why most people have faith in anything really.

Otis would be better served asking about faith in general and not restricting it to religion.

 
If Otis wants to experience the power of belief, he ought to visit a video game fansite and post a couple polite negative things about the game on their forums. The zealots will sweep in and attack. Then he can ask them why they have such faith.

 
Most people cannot explain why they have faith in anything. You could ask similar questions like "why do you have faith in a political party, a political system, your yoga teacher, the brand of car that you buy, your closest friends, that your cell phone service wont cut out, that your favorite video game developer will never design a bad video game and that it is a sin to suggest they might", and most people couldn't answer those very well either.

So I don't know what the Otis is trying to prove, or what he is expecting to hear. Even if he got a really good answer, it wouldn't explain why most people have faith in anything really.

Otis would be better served asking about faith in general and not restricting it to religion.
Completely disagree. I can tell you I have faith in Honda cars. I'm not just sort of believing they're good blindly, or because someone told me, or because someone I don't know left behind writings saying they are good. I've owned and driven in lots of them. Through first hand observation I've come to trust the brand. I've seen the results of testing and surveys from sources I trust. People I know what have owned them confirm they have had similar first hand experiences with the cars. Similar things can be said about your other hypothetical.

Religion is unique. It's this thing people have faith in but a complete black box. I have my parents telling me a particular religion is good, but their experience is no more direct than mine. They don't know Jesus or Moses. They are relying on stories in books that are something like 2000 years old. Even the authors of the books aren't a trusted source. It is by and large based on complete and utter blind faith, and only because other people tell us we should believe. At best some people report feeling good, and attribute this to bring close with Jesus or God (in another religion that good feeling would have a different name). It's otherwise a total black box to us.

That's an interesting concept to me, that people would not only have such faith, but would base so much of their time here on earth, and nearly all of their important decisions, on this blind faith construct.

 
If Otis wants to experience the power of belief, he ought to visit a video game fansite and post a couple polite negative things about the game on their forums. The zealots will sweep in and attack. Then he can ask them why they have such faith.
lolwat

 
By the way, why don't any of our omnipotent gods ever pop down and do something incredible and take the credit for it? Seems like it would be the best way for everyone in the world to get confirmation, and then our faith in and following of that religion doesn't have to be blind. Why did only people alive long ago get that opportunity? If the answer is that the whole point of religion is blind faith, that just feels like an awful convenient answer for something that nobody has any proof of.

 
Psychopav said:
Otis said:
A comment in another thread, which is a rehash of a comment we see in all the religion threads, was along the lines of "From my viewpoint, my belief in X is based on faith. It can't be proven or disproven."

Just curious as to whether there is a rational basis for folks deciding to put faith in a particular unprovable over another unprovable. I suspect that in 99% of cases, your decision to have faith in X is based solely on the fact that you grew up in a certain part of the world and had parents who decided to tell you to have faith in X. Does that bother you? Do you ever consider that, had you grown up in a different hemisphere, or been born to parents in a house up the road, you might well have a completely different blind faith (that could neither be proven nor disproven)?

Not trying to throw stones at the believers, just curious to get past the hocus pocus and right down to an honest intellectual discussion. The answer at the end of this may be "yeah, I recognize none of this is rational, but it makes me happy and gives me some good constructs around which I can build my life and my family's lives," and if so, that's cool by me. But if it's something more than that, curious to hear that too.

TIA

Mods please file under "religion threads"
Faith is by definition unprovable by empirical methods, but that doesn't mean it's unprovable to the individual. I have had plenty of experiences which together comprise the foundation for my faith. I have a relationship with God that is unique and simply explaining it would be like trying to explain my mother's love for me. If you had a mother, you would know exactly what I'm talking about. If you didn't grow up with a mom, you wouldn't understand no matter what words I used. The best we'd be able to do is to try to approximate it with a metaphor linking it to something you do understand.

Luckily, while I can't explain a mother's love by suggesting you just try it out by going out and getting a mom, I can suggest to a nonbeliever that if you pray for a relationship with God, He will respond.
This pretty much nails it. Thanks for the excellent post.

 
I gave up religion at an early age. It was because they told me I couldn't do something because it was a sin. So I said "#### em".
This is maybe the most honest critique of religion I have read.
I assume you're schticking, because for many of us I think it's less about not wanting to follow rules, and more about choosing not to follow rules that are completely arbitrary and border on silly (if I grew up in Arkansas, I can't eat meat today; if Brooklyn, I can't have my food prepared with anything pork or dairy based; if India, that pork may be a deity etc.) If Jesus flew down on a rocket chariot and started tossing lightning bolts at the bad or handing out sacks of wine to the good, I'd be the first one in line at communion this morning. Which is why this all comes back to the WHY in why should I believe in A or B or C, when the most honest answer many of us have is that we would probably never believe in B or C because we really don't know much of anything about them or anyone else who believes in them since it's just people on the other side of the planet who tend to believe in those, and so we will believe in A because our parents told us to and because lots of people we hang out with believe in it, so it just sort of makes sense. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Most people cannot explain why they have faith in anything. You could ask similar questions like "why do you have faith in a political party, a political system, your yoga teacher, the brand of car that you buy, your closest friends, that your cell phone service wont cut out, that your favorite video game developer will never design a bad video game and that it is a sin to suggest they might", and most people couldn't answer those very well either.

So I don't know what the Otis is trying to prove, or what he is expecting to hear. Even if he got a really good answer, it wouldn't explain why most people have faith in anything really.

Otis would be better served asking about faith in general and not restricting it to religion.
Completely disagree. I can tell you I have faith in Honda cars. I'm not just sort of believing they're good blindly, or because someone told me, or because someone I don't know left behind writings saying they are good. I've owned and driven in lots of them. Through first hand observation I've come to trust the brand. I've seen the results of testing and surveys from sources I trust. People I know what have owned them confirm they have had similar first hand experiences with the cars. Similar things can be said about your other hypothetical.

Religion is unique. It's this thing people have faith in but a complete black box. I have my parents telling me a particular religion is good, but their experience is no more direct than mine. They don't know Jesus or Moses. They are relying on stories in books that are something like 2000 years old. Even the authors of the books aren't a trusted source. It is by and large based on complete and utter blind faith, and only because other people tell us we should believe. At best some people report feeling good, and attribute this to bring close with Jesus or God (in another religion that good feeling would have a different name). It's otherwise a total black box to us.

That's an interesting concept to me, that people would not only have such faith, but would base so much of their time here on earth, and nearly all of their important decisions, on this blind faith construct.
Maybe some people have faith in their religion because through first hand observation they see the good things the religion does in society. Raising money to help children in unfortunate situations. Donating food and clothes to impoverished people. They witness these acts, and this gives them faith. Maybe the people they trust recommend the religion.

But it almost sounds like you are changing your question. The thread title is about faith in religion. But now you seem to be asking why people have faith in God. Or maybe you're asking why people have faith in the Bible. So maybe I'm confused now.

But people will have faith in any institution if they witness that institution doing good things.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Most people cannot explain why they have faith in anything. You could ask similar questions like "why do you have faith in a political party, a political system, your yoga teacher, the brand of car that you buy, your closest friends, that your cell phone service wont cut out, that your favorite video game developer will never design a bad video game and that it is a sin to suggest they might", and most people couldn't answer those very well either.

So I don't know what the Otis is trying to prove, or what he is expecting to hear. Even if he got a really good answer, it wouldn't explain why most people have faith in anything really.

Otis would be better served asking about faith in general and not restricting it to religion.
Completely disagree. I can tell you I have faith in Honda cars. I'm not just sort of believing they're good blindly, or because someone told me, or because someone I don't know left behind writings saying they are good. I've owned and driven in lots of them. Through first hand observation I've come to trust the brand. I've seen the results of testing and surveys from sources I trust. People I know what have owned them confirm they have had similar first hand experiences with the cars. Similar things can be said about your other hypothetical.
A huge number of Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, etc. would say the same thing about their faith (they've had positive first-hand experiences with their faith, they've observed positive experiences that others have had, etc).

 
Which is why this all comes back to the WHY in why should I believe in A or B or C, when the most honest answer many of us have is that we would probably never believe in B or C because we really don't know much of anything about them or anyone else who believes in them since it's just people on the other side of the planet who tend to believe in those, and so we will believe in A because our parents told us to and because lots of people we hang out with believe in it, so it just sort of makes sense. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
Hi Otis,

I'd agree thinking about the "why" is important.

But I really don't think it's all the parents thing. You'll see one day GB, those kids don't just jump in line to do what you say... ;) Especially when they're 20.

But I do hear you. My kids are more likely to be Christian than Muslim because of how they're raised. No argument there. I just think the parents aren't as big a factor as you might be thinking. And there are also adults who have a resistance to religion because they were raised that way. So it works from all angles. Which is why I say the real way is to figure it out for yourself.

You might like Anne Lamott. She grew up in San Francisco and both her parents were super smart and involved in the intellectual scene of the 60s. Following Jesus was the last thing she wanted to do as she saw it as weak minded or stupid. She's a really talented writer and is pretty much the opposite of what many folks see on TV representing Christians. Here's a 5 minute video from a series she did. This one starts off talking about her alcoholism which probably isn't relevant but in a couple of minutes in she talks about how she started going to her church.

She's got a really good book called Traveling Mercies that talks about her life and how resistant she was to Christianity. And as she says in the video, she's now a "really bad Christian". But believes in doing things badly vs not trying at all. Do what you can. Take your best shot.

J

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Our parents also tell us there is an Easter Bunny and a Santa Claus. If nobody came out and told us there is no Santa, would we continue to wake up Christmas morning expecting gifts to magically appear?

I feel similar about religion. Growing up Catholic, I was told lots of things. Whether it was through science, common sense, or things that happen in the world I stopped believing.

 
Most people cannot explain why they have faith in anything. You could ask similar questions like "why do you have faith in a political party, a political system, your yoga teacher, the brand of car that you buy, your closest friends, that your cell phone service wont cut out, that your favorite video game developer will never design a bad video game and that it is a sin to suggest they might", and most people couldn't answer those very well either.

So I don't know what the Otis is trying to prove, or what he is expecting to hear. Even if he got a really good answer, it wouldn't explain why most people have faith in anything really.

Otis would be better served asking about faith in general and not restricting it to religion.
Completely disagree. I can tell you I have faith in Honda cars. I'm not just sort of believing they're good blindly, or because someone told me, or because someone I don't know left behind writings saying they are good. I've owned and driven in lots of them. Through first hand observation I've come to trust the brand. I've seen the results of testing and surveys from sources I trust. People I know what have owned them confirm they have had similar first hand experiences with the cars. Similar things can be said about your other hypothetical.
A huge number of Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, etc. would say the same thing about their faith (they've had positive first-hand experiences with their faith, they've observed positive experiences that others have had, etc).
Having a positive experience with your faith is very different from a belief in it being real. I believe Hondas are real cars and are well made and a good buy, because I have lots of direct evidence of that. Nobody here has direct evidence of Buddha or Jesus. The evidence is at best some of the most indirect and hearsay evidence you could conjure up.

Again, we're not talking about being part of the religion, and the benefits of that. There are some great positive things that people get out of being included in a religious group. Nobody disputes that. What we're talking about is your belief in the main foundations of the religion.

 
Most people cannot explain why they have faith in anything. You could ask similar questions like "why do you have faith in a political party, a political system, your yoga teacher, the brand of car that you buy, your closest friends, that your cell phone service wont cut out, that your favorite video game developer will never design a bad video game and that it is a sin to suggest they might", and most people couldn't answer those very well either.

So I don't know what the Otis is trying to prove, or what he is expecting to hear. Even if he got a really good answer, it wouldn't explain why most people have faith in anything really.

Otis would be better served asking about faith in general and not restricting it to religion.
Completely disagree. I can tell you I have faith in Honda cars. I'm not just sort of believing they're good blindly, or because someone told me, or because someone I don't know left behind writings saying they are good. I've owned and driven in lots of them. Through first hand observation I've come to trust the brand. I've seen the results of testing and surveys from sources I trust. People I know what have owned them confirm they have had similar first hand experiences with the cars. Similar things can be said about your other hypothetical.
A huge number of Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, etc. would say the same thing about their faith (they've had positive first-hand experiences with their faith, they've observed positive experiences that others have had, etc).
Having a positive experience with your faith is very different from a belief in it being real. I believe Hondas are real cars and are well made and a good buy, because I have lots of direct evidence of that. Nobody here has direct evidence of Buddha or Jesus. The evidence is at best some of the most indirect and hearsay evidence you could conjure up.

Again, we're not talking about being part of the religion, and the benefits of that. There are some great positive things that people get out of being included in a religious group. Nobody disputes that. What we're talking about is your belief in the main foundations of the religion.
I've heard a bunch of people tell me how good Hondas are. Until I drove one myself, I didn't truly understand how well they handled. Unless I own one myself, I won't truly understand how well they are built or how long they last.

You've heard a bunch of people tell you how good God is. Unless you have Him in your garage, you're just listening to someone else's opinion about their Honda. :shrug:

 
Most people cannot explain why they have faith in anything. You could ask similar questions like "why do you have faith in a political party, a political system, your yoga teacher, the brand of car that you buy, your closest friends, that your cell phone service wont cut out, that your favorite video game developer will never design a bad video game and that it is a sin to suggest they might", and most people couldn't answer those very well either.

So I don't know what the Otis is trying to prove, or what he is expecting to hear. Even if he got a really good answer, it wouldn't explain why most people have faith in anything really.

Otis would be better served asking about faith in general and not restricting it to religion.
Completely disagree. I can tell you I have faith in Honda cars. I'm not just sort of believing they're good blindly, or because someone told me, or because someone I don't know left behind writings saying they are good. I've owned and driven in lots of them. Through first hand observation I've come to trust the brand. I've seen the results of testing and surveys from sources I trust. People I know what have owned them confirm they have had similar first hand experiences with the cars. Similar things can be said about your other hypothetical.
A huge number of Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, etc. would say the same thing about their faith (they've had positive first-hand experiences with their faith, they've observed positive experiences that others have had, etc).
Having a positive experience with your faith is very different from a belief in it being real. I believe Hondas are real cars and are well made and a good buy, because I have lots of direct evidence of that. Nobody here has direct evidence of Buddha or Jesus. The evidence is at best some of the most indirect and hearsay evidence you could conjure up.

Again, we're not talking about being part of the religion, and the benefits of that. There are some great positive things that people get out of being included in a religious group. Nobody disputes that. What we're talking about is your belief in the main foundations of the religion.
I've heard a bunch of people tell me how good Hondas are. Until I drove one myself, I didn't truly understand how well they handled. Unless I own one myself, I won't truly understand how well they are built or how long they last.You've heard a bunch of people tell you how good God is. Unless you have Him in your garage, you're just listening to someone else's opinion about their Honda. :shrug:
You can come over to my house and test drive my wife's CRV.

 
Which is why this all comes back to the WHY in why should I believe in A or B or C, when the most honest answer many of us have is that we would probably never believe in B or C because we really don't know much of anything about them or anyone else who believes in them since it's just people on the other side of the planet who tend to believe in those, and so we will believe in A because our parents told us to and because lots of people we hang out with believe in it, so it just sort of makes sense. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
Hi Otis,

I'd agree thinking about the "why" is important.

But I really don't think it's all the parents thing. You'll see one day GB, those kids don't just jump in line to do what you say... ;) Especially when they're 20.

But I do hear you. My kids are more likely to be Christian than Muslim because of how they're raised. No argument there. I just think the parents aren't as big a factor as you might be thinking. And there are also adults who have a resistance to religion because they were raised that way. So it works from all angles. Which is why I say the real way is to figure it out for yourself.

You might like Anne Lamott. She grew up in San Francisco and both her parents were super smart and involved in the intellectual scene of the 60s. Following Jesus was the last thing she wanted to do as she saw it as weak minded or stupid. She's a really talented writer and is pretty much the opposite of what many folks see on TV representing Christians. Here's a 5 minute video from a series she did. This one starts off talking about her alcoholism which probably isn't relevant but in a couple of minutes in she talks about how she started going to her church.

She's got a really good book called Traveling Mercies that talks about her life and how resistant she was to Christianity. And as she says in the video, she's now a "really bad Christian". But believes in doing things badly vs not trying at all. Do what you can. Take your best shot.

J
Interesting, thanks Joe. I think the one basic problem I have with your post is the following:

But I do hear you. My kids are more likely to be Christian than Muslim because of how they're raised. No argument there. I just think the parents aren't as big a factor as you might be thinking. And there are also adults who have a resistance to religion because they were raised that way. So it works from all angles. Which is why I say the real way is to figure it out for yourself.


I think this goes to the heart of my issue or question. My fundamental point is that we PRIMARILY adopt religion as it's given to us. I understand there are exceptions and outliers, lots of them. But on the whole, I have to imagine that the vast, vast majority of people who identify themselves as religious have largely taken on the religions of their parents. I suppose if I could find a study or some data on that, it would either support or refute what is one of the most fundamental assumptions I'm making here.

Because if that is established, I think that's where the big, interesting question comes in. Not only are people having blind faith, but they're having blind faith in the religion that is essentially handed to them, even in the face of all the myriad other religions in the world, and knowing full well that, in all likelihood, had they grown up on the other side of the world, they'd have a completely different belief. I just find that a really interesting choke point in this whole analysis/discussion of religious faith. Again, if my assumption is way off, it's less meaningful. But if my assumption is a good one, it raises what I think are big questions.

 
Most people cannot explain why they have faith in anything. You could ask similar questions like "why do you have faith in a political party, a political system, your yoga teacher, the brand of car that you buy, your closest friends, that your cell phone service wont cut out, that your favorite video game developer will never design a bad video game and that it is a sin to suggest they might", and most people couldn't answer those very well either.

So I don't know what the Otis is trying to prove, or what he is expecting to hear. Even if he got a really good answer, it wouldn't explain why most people have faith in anything really.

Otis would be better served asking about faith in general and not restricting it to religion.
Completely disagree. I can tell you I have faith in Honda cars. I'm not just sort of believing they're good blindly, or because someone told me, or because someone I don't know left behind writings saying they are good. I've owned and driven in lots of them. Through first hand observation I've come to trust the brand. I've seen the results of testing and surveys from sources I trust. People I know what have owned them confirm they have had similar first hand experiences with the cars. Similar things can be said about your other hypothetical.
A huge number of Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, etc. would say the same thing about their faith (they've had positive first-hand experiences with their faith, they've observed positive experiences that others have had, etc).
Having a positive experience with your faith is very different from a belief in it being real. I believe Hondas are real cars and are well made and a good buy, because I have lots of direct evidence of that. Nobody here has direct evidence of Buddha or Jesus. The evidence is at best some of the most indirect and hearsay evidence you could conjure up.

Again, we're not talking about being part of the religion, and the benefits of that. There are some great positive things that people get out of being included in a religious group. Nobody disputes that. What we're talking about is your belief in the main foundations of the religion.
I've heard a bunch of people tell me how good Hondas are. Until I drove one myself, I didn't truly understand how well they handled. Unless I own one myself, I won't truly understand how well they are built or how long they last.

You've heard a bunch of people tell you how good God is. Unless you have Him in your garage, you're just listening to someone else's opinion about their Honda. :shrug:
But I'm talking about the reasons you believe in something. If the answer is "I believe it in because I tried believing in it, and it felt good, so I just keep on believing," that's OK. But when you start talking about the positive effects of the belief you're moving past the point I'm trying to focus on -- i.e., the reason for the belief in the first place.

 
Psychopav said:
Luckily, while I can't explain a mother's love by suggesting you just try it out by going out and getting a mom, I can suggest to a nonbeliever that if you pray for a relationship with God, He will respond.
This pretty much nails it. Thanks for the excellent post.
He isn't responding to me, but of course I'm not doing it right.. right?

One single objective piece of evidence that any god has ever responded to anyone praying to them is all I need to accept these posts. I am probably more earnest in my attempts than most, in that I am truly interested in an answer, but no matter how hard I try in the end it is just me talking to myself. :shrug:

 
Which is why this all comes back to the WHY in why should I believe in A or B or C, when the most honest answer many of us have is that we would probably never believe in B or C because we really don't know much of anything about them or anyone else who believes in them since it's just people on the other side of the planet who tend to believe in those, and so we will believe in A because our parents told us to and because lots of people we hang out with believe in it, so it just sort of makes sense. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
Hi Otis,

I'd agree thinking about the "why" is important.

But I really don't think it's all the parents thing. You'll see one day GB, those kids don't just jump in line to do what you say... ;) Especially when they're 20.

But I do hear you. My kids are more likely to be Christian than Muslim because of how they're raised. No argument there. I just think the parents aren't as big a factor as you might be thinking. And there are also adults who have a resistance to religion because they were raised that way. So it works from all angles. Which is why I say the real way is to figure it out for yourself.

You might like Anne Lamott. She grew up in San Francisco and both her parents were super smart and involved in the intellectual scene of the 60s. Following Jesus was the last thing she wanted to do as she saw it as weak minded or stupid. She's a really talented writer and is pretty much the opposite of what many folks see on TV representing Christians. Here's a 5 minute video from a series she did. This one starts off talking about her alcoholism which probably isn't relevant but in a couple of minutes in she talks about how she started going to her church.

She's got a really good book called Traveling Mercies that talks about her life and how resistant she was to Christianity. And as she says in the video, she's now a "really bad Christian". But believes in doing things badly vs not trying at all. Do what you can. Take your best shot.

J
Interesting, thanks Joe. I think the one basic problem I have with your post is the following:

But I do hear you. My kids are more likely to be Christian than Muslim because of how they're raised. No argument there. I just think the parents aren't as big a factor as you might be thinking. And there are also adults who have a resistance to religion because they were raised that way. So it works from all angles. Which is why I say the real way is to figure it out for yourself.


I think this goes to the heart of my issue or question. My fundamental point is that we PRIMARILY adopt religion as it's given to us. I understand there are exceptions and outliers, lots of them. But on the whole, I have to imagine that the vast, vast majority of people who identify themselves as religious have largely taken on the religions of their parents. I suppose if I could find a study or some data on that, it would either support or refute what is one of the most fundamental assumptions I'm making here.

Because if that is established, I think that's where the big, interesting question comes in. Not only are people having blind faith, but they're having blind faith in the religion that is essentially handed to them, even in the face of all the myriad other religions in the world, and knowing full well that, in all likelihood, had they grown up on the other side of the world, they'd have a completely different belief. I just find that a really interesting choke point in this whole analysis/discussion of religious faith. Again, if my assumption is way off, it's less meaningful. But if my assumption is a good one, it raises what I think are big questions.
Thanks Otis. I think I see and understand what you're saying. And no doubt, what you're saying is at work in some degree. There is some degree of "pressure" for kids to follow their parents in whatever. Be it where they live, what they do for a living and so on.

Where I think we disagree is on two things:.

#1. How much influence the parents really have.

#2 How big a deal that it really is.

Let's say it's something like career choice. Two parents are doctors and they think being a doctor is the greatest thing ever. They want nothing more than their child to grow up to be a doctor. They influence her in every way they can and the child grows up to be a doctor and loves it.

If I were thinking about being a doctor, I'd look at what it meant to be a doctor. Would I consider that some doctors are doctors because their parents were doctors and they did everything they could to influence the child to be a doctor? Maybe. But I honestly wouldn't put that much value on it. I'd focus way more on what it might look for me to be a doctor and figure out if that was for me.

That's maybe not a very good example. But it kind of makes sense to me. I'd look at why people become something. But I'm not sure how much weight I'd put on their parent's influence.

J

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Which is why this all comes back to the WHY in why should I believe in A or B or C, when the most honest answer many of us have is that we would probably never believe in B or C because we really don't know much of anything about them or anyone else who believes in them since it's just people on the other side of the planet who tend to believe in those, and so we will believe in A because our parents told us to and because lots of people we hang out with believe in it, so it just sort of makes sense. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
Hi Otis,

I'd agree thinking about the "why" is important.

But I really don't think it's all the parents thing. You'll see one day GB, those kids don't just jump in line to do what you say... ;) Especially when they're 20.

But I do hear you. My kids are more likely to be Christian than Muslim because of how they're raised. No argument there. I just think the parents aren't as big a factor as you might be thinking. And there are also adults who have a resistance to religion because they were raised that way. So it works from all angles. Which is why I say the real way is to figure it out for yourself.

You might like Anne Lamott. She grew up in San Francisco and both her parents were super smart and involved in the intellectual scene of the 60s. Following Jesus was the last thing she wanted to do as she saw it as weak minded or stupid. She's a really talented writer and is pretty much the opposite of what many folks see on TV representing Christians. Here's a 5 minute video from a series she did. This one starts off talking about her alcoholism which probably isn't relevant but in a couple of minutes in she talks about how she started going to her church.

She's got a really good book called Traveling Mercies that talks about her life and how resistant she was to Christianity. And as she says in the video, she's now a "really bad Christian". But believes in doing things badly vs not trying at all. Do what you can. Take your best shot.

J
Interesting, thanks Joe. I think the one basic problem I have with your post is the following:

But I do hear you. My kids are more likely to be Christian than Muslim because of how they're raised. No argument there. I just think the parents aren't as big a factor as you might be thinking. And there are also adults who have a resistance to religion because they were raised that way. So it works from all angles. Which is why I say the real way is to figure it out for yourself.


I think this goes to the heart of my issue or question. My fundamental point is that we PRIMARILY adopt religion as it's given to us. I understand there are exceptions and outliers, lots of them. But on the whole, I have to imagine that the vast, vast majority of people who identify themselves as religious have largely taken on the religions of their parents. I suppose if I could find a study or some data on that, it would either support or refute what is one of the most fundamental assumptions I'm making here.

Because if that is established, I think that's where the big, interesting question comes in. Not only are people having blind faith, but they're having blind faith in the religion that is essentially handed to them, even in the face of all the myriad other religions in the world, and knowing full well that, in all likelihood, had they grown up on the other side of the world, they'd have a completely different belief. I just find that a really interesting choke point in this whole analysis/discussion of religious faith. Again, if my assumption is way off, it's less meaningful. But if my assumption is a good one, it raises what I think are big questions.
Thanks Otis. I think I see and understand what you're saying. And no doubt, what you're saying is at work in some degree. There is some degree of "pressure" for kids to follow their parents in whatever. Be it where they live, what they do for a living and so on.

Where I think we disagree is on two things:.

#1. How much influence the parents really have.

#2 How big a deal that it really is.

Let's say it's something like career choice. Two parents are doctors and they think being a doctor is the greatest thing ever. They want nothing more than their child to grow up to be a doctor. They influence him in every way they can and the child grows up to be a doctor and loves it.

If I were thinking about being a doctor, I'd look at what it meant to be a doctor. Would I consider that some doctors are doctors because their parents were doctors and they did everything they could to influence the child to be a doctor? Maybe. But I honestly wouldn't put that much value on it. I'd focus way more on what it might look for me to be a doctor and figure out if that was for me.

That's maybe not a very good example. But it kind of makes sense to me. I'd look at why people become something. But I'm not sure how much weight I'd put on their parent's influence.

J
I think your #2 above is an important point -- I concede that in the end it doesn't really matter, because if people are HAPPY in their beliefs, and doing good by others, well then who cares how they got to that point. Whatever floats your boat should be good for each and every person.

But the reason I struggle with #1 and find it interesting is that I bet the statistics (if there are any) will bear out that I'm right about this and your view is not accurate. And if it's true -- if we establish that religion is generally the one we happen to inherit from our parents -- then the fundamental question it opens up is how grounded are our beliefs if they are basically just a product of arbitrary chance? If the mere fact that a person was born in New Jersey as opposed to New Delhi is ultimately what determines their faith -- their entire belief system in life -- how logical, or grounded, or reasonable is their belief in the first place? How can they really feel comfortable believing in the basic facts of their religion if it turns out that they would believe completely different basic facts of another religion had they just been born to different parents, or in a different place? And the same hole would apply to people in EVERY religion. So no one religion could then be right, or correct, or true.

And maybe the answer for all the religious people in the world is "look, I don't want to go there, and I don't need to go there, because I like what I like and I'm happy with it and it helps me live a good life." And that's OK too. We all get to spend our days as we please.

 
Some of the writing here seems to suggest at least 65% of people have kept the religion of their parents.

That of course would not account for people who have left religion entirely. If you carve those people out, I bet you start to get towards 90% pretty quickly.

ETA, another text there says: "Naturally, our explorations have taken us away from where we started,

and up to 20 percent of Americans say they no longer practice the
religion of their parents." Again, some of that 20% is going to end up being a group that has left religion altogether.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
By the way, just realized this is not a great Easter even thread. Happy Easter to all my Catholic and Christian buds. I honestly didn't start it purposely due to the holiday, but thinking back to surfing the web while on the couch, and it may have been one of those old bible movies was on TV and sparked the thought.

Respect to the religious folks out there.

 
It's not just parental influence Oats - the social pressures to participate in the predominant local religion also play a role. Especially in smaller towns, there are big social and economic benefits to joining the local masses.

Geography is the best predictor of ones religious beliefs. The college football fan analogy is often used when people talk about this issue.

 
Which is why this all comes back to the WHY in why should I believe in A or B or C, when the most honest answer many of us have is that we would probably never believe in B or C because we really don't know much of anything about them or anyone else who believes in them since it's just people on the other side of the planet who tend to believe in those, and so we will believe in A because our parents told us to and because lots of people we hang out with believe in it, so it just sort of makes sense. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
Hi Otis,

I'd agree thinking about the "why" is important.

But I really don't think it's all the parents thing. You'll see one day GB, those kids don't just jump in line to do what you say... ;) Especially when they're 20.

But I do hear you. My kids are more likely to be Christian than Muslim because of how they're raised. No argument there. I just think the parents aren't as big a factor as you might be thinking. And there are also adults who have a resistance to religion because they were raised that way. So it works from all angles. Which is why I say the real way is to figure it out for yourself.

You might like Anne Lamott. She grew up in San Francisco and both her parents were super smart and involved in the intellectual scene of the 60s. Following Jesus was the last thing she wanted to do as she saw it as weak minded or stupid. She's a really talented writer and is pretty much the opposite of what many folks see on TV representing Christians. Here's a 5 minute video from a series she did. This one starts off talking about her alcoholism which probably isn't relevant but in a couple of minutes in she talks about how she started going to her church.

She's got a really good book called Traveling Mercies that talks about her life and how resistant she was to Christianity. And as she says in the video, she's now a "really bad Christian". But believes in doing things badly vs not trying at all. Do what you can. Take your best shot.

J
Interesting, thanks Joe. I think the one basic problem I have with your post is the following:

But I do hear you. My kids are more likely to be Christian than Muslim because of how they're raised. No argument there. I just think the parents aren't as big a factor as you might be thinking. And there are also adults who have a resistance to religion because they were raised that way. So it works from all angles. Which is why I say the real way is to figure it out for yourself.


I think this goes to the heart of my issue or question. My fundamental point is that we PRIMARILY adopt religion as it's given to us. I understand there are exceptions and outliers, lots of them. But on the whole, I have to imagine that the vast, vast majority of people who identify themselves as religious have largely taken on the religions of their parents. I suppose if I could find a study or some data on that, it would either support or refute what is one of the most fundamental assumptions I'm making here.

Because if that is established, I think that's where the big, interesting question comes in. Not only are people having blind faith, but they're having blind faith in the religion that is essentially handed to them, even in the face of all the myriad other religions in the world, and knowing full well that, in all likelihood, had they grown up on the other side of the world, they'd have a completely different belief. I just find that a really interesting choke point in this whole analysis/discussion of religious faith. Again, if my assumption is way off, it's less meaningful. But if my assumption is a good one, it raises what I think are big questions.
Thanks Otis. I think I see and understand what you're saying. And no doubt, what you're saying is at work in some degree. There is some degree of "pressure" for kids to follow their parents in whatever. Be it where they live, what they do for a living and so on.

Where I think we disagree is on two things:.

#1. How much influence the parents really have.

#2 How big a deal that it really is.

Let's say it's something like career choice. Two parents are doctors and they think being a doctor is the greatest thing ever. They want nothing more than their child to grow up to be a doctor. They influence him in every way they can and the child grows up to be a doctor and loves it.

If I were thinking about being a doctor, I'd look at what it meant to be a doctor. Would I consider that some doctors are doctors because their parents were doctors and they did everything they could to influence the child to be a doctor? Maybe. But I honestly wouldn't put that much value on it. I'd focus way more on what it might look for me to be a doctor and figure out if that was for me.

That's maybe not a very good example. But it kind of makes sense to me. I'd look at why people become something. But I'm not sure how much weight I'd put on their parent's influence.

J
I think your #2 above is an important point -- I concede that in the end it doesn't really matter, because if people are HAPPY in their beliefs, and doing good by others, well then who cares how they got to that point. Whatever floats your boat should be good for each and every person.

But the reason I struggle with #1 and find it interesting is that I bet the statistics (if there are any) will bear out that I'm right about this and your view is not accurate. And if it's true -- if we establish that religion is generally the one we happen to inherit from our parents -- then the fundamental question it opens up is how grounded are our beliefs if they are basically just a product of arbitrary chance? If the mere fact that a person was born in New Jersey as opposed to New Delhi is ultimately what determines their faith -- their entire belief system in life -- how logical, or grounded, or reasonable is their belief in the first place? How can they really feel comfortable believing in the basic facts of their religion if it turns out that they would believe completely different basic facts of another religion had they just been born to different parents, or in a different place? And the same hole would apply to people in EVERY religion. So no one religion could then be right, or correct, or true.

And maybe the answer for all the religious people in the world is "look, I don't want to go there, and I don't need to go there, because I like what I like and I'm happy with it and it helps me live a good life." And that's OK too. We all get to spend our days as we please.
Thanks. But I'd say of the two reasons, the second one is really all that matters. It's like the doctor example. Sure there are people that chose to be a doctor because their parents influenced them. Or maybe it was because they got to see the benefits of being a doctor up close as they grew up. Really doesn't matter to the person who didn't have doctor parents and is now choosing.

If you go to a church, I'd be surprised if anyone asks you if your parents are Christians. There isn't any "legacy" system in place. This deal is all about you and God.

But all these are great things to think about. My advice would be to keep seeking answers to the things you see. And by far, person to person is best for that. I don't know if they have a location that's near you, but Redeemer Church in NYC is really well known. The main pastor, Tim Keller is a friend of my pastor. The kinds of things you're asking and questioning are stuff they welcome. I went when I visited the city a couple of years ago and it was real low key. Nobody is going to bother you. If they do, just tell them you're there on an exploratory mission from the FFA and you're trying to decide if any of this stuff is true. That's a big part of their audience and that's great. That's what they're for. Keller's experience in NY has been pretty interesting. He says that most new churches over the years there had gone into NYC with the attitude that they were going into "enemy territory" and that NYC was like a modern day Sodom and Gomorra. Keller's attitude was, "NYC is arguably the greatest city in the world. And tons of people that live here think that. Let's have a church that is part of that instead of a church that treats the city like an enemy".

Make it a FFA field trip. Report back. ;)

J

 
By the way, just realized this is not a great Easter even thread. Happy Easter to all my Catholic and Christian buds. I honestly didn't start it purposely due to the holiday, but thinking back to surfing the web while on the couch, and it may have been one of those old bible movies was on TV and sparked the thought.

Respect to the religious folks out there.
No worries at all. This isn't disrespectful at all. You're asking real questions about stuff that Christians think is really important. :hifive:

J

 
The tie to parents and general clinging to things you encountered in your upbringing as adults tends to have a close relationship with how curious a person one is. Some people just are not curious and their world view remains largely unchanged throughout their lives from the one presented to them in the home they grew up in. So be it.

 
It's not just parental influence Oats - the social pressures to participate in the predominant local religion also play a role. Especially in smaller towns, there are big social and economic benefits to joining the local masses.

Geography is the best predictor of ones religious beliefs. The college football fan analogy is often used when people talk about this issue.
This comment is timely. We have not baptized our daughters (despite parents on both sides pressing us to), and have lived in a mixed religion town with all types. We are about to move to a town that is over 90 percent Roman catholic, and likely will get them baptized and participating for that reason. We don't want them to feel excluded, and some golden rule stuff can't hurt. I suspect religion propagates this way pretty commonly too.

 
The tie to parents and general clinging to things you encountered in your upbringing as adults tends to have a close relationship with how curious a person one is. Some people just are not curious and their world view remains largely unchanged throughout their lives from the one presented to them in the home they grew up in. So be it.
Are you religious ?

 
I mean each person's situation is different, and of course I can't know what's going on in your family, but just wondering whether what you interpret as ashamed might not be just her expression of her own guilt over her kids turning away from the deepest faith of her heart. I am 100% sincere when I say that while of course I will love my kids no matter which faith they choose, if they turn away from God it will easily be the hardest thing I will ever have to face.
I don't mean to offend or upset you, but as a serious Catholic with 4 kids, I have no doubt that if she's a pious Catholic, at least a part of her feels like she has failed at her number one job as a parent. Maybe it comes across as shame to you, but it may be more about guilt than being ashamed of you. I know it would be for me.

I'll be praying for you and her.
She's not particularly devout. She's more of a generic Christian than a practicing Catholic...she goes to mass twice a year. She converted from Lutheran to marry my father.

I find the bolded to be very interesting. What if they converted to a different sect of Christianity but didn't "turn away from God"? I guess I sort of view faith as each person's quest to figure out what they believe, but I suppose I'd feel differently if I really strongly believed in some sort of of tangible religious construct. As it stands, I don't.

And I'm not offended. I never talk to people about stuff like this in real life, so it's nice to discuss it here.

 
Psychopav said:
Luckily, while I can't explain a mother's love by suggesting you just try it out by going out and getting a mom, I can suggest to a nonbeliever that if you pray for a relationship with God, He will respond.
This pretty much nails it. Thanks for the excellent post.
He isn't responding to me, but of course I'm not doing it right.. right?

One single objective piece of evidence that any god has ever responded to anyone praying to them is all I need to accept these posts. I am probably more earnest in my attempts than most, in that I am truly interested in an answer, but no matter how hard I try in the end it is just me talking to myself. :shrug:
You seem to equate objective evidence with empirical evidence. Just because God is real doesn't mean His will is predictable or repeatable.

 
It's not just parental influence Oats - the social pressures to participate in the predominant local religion also play a role. Especially in smaller towns, there are big social and economic benefits to joining the local masses.

Geography is the best predictor of ones religious beliefs. The college football fan analogy is often used when people talk about this issue.
This comment is timely. We have not baptized our daughters (despite parents on both sides pressing us to), and have lived in a mixed religion town with all types. We are about to move to a town that is over 90 percent Roman catholic, and likely will get them baptized and participating for that reason. We don't want them to feel excluded, and some golden rule stuff can't hurt. I suspect religion propagates this way pretty commonly too.
Your daughter having morality reinforced (im sure you both teach her it already) is never a bad thing. Also, you might bring her comfort in her thinking there is more to life than this, and if that comfort makes her happier and able to deal with the death that will come in her life then is that really a bad thing either?

we all have this need to believe in something and believing in nothing is a rather depressing, and I feel like that is part of the reason everyone is so medicated because they believe in nothing.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I mean each person's situation is different, and of course I can't know what's going on in your family, but just wondering whether what you interpret as ashamed might not be just her expression of her own guilt over her kids turning away from the deepest faith of her heart. I am 100% sincere when I say that while of course I will love my kids no matter which faith they choose, if they turn away from God it will easily be the hardest thing I will ever have to face.
I don't mean to offend or upset you, but as a serious Catholic with 4 kids, I have no doubt that if she's a pious Catholic, at least a part of her feels like she has failed at her number one job as a parent. Maybe it comes across as shame to you, but it may be more about guilt than being ashamed of you. I know it would be for me.

I'll be praying for you and her.
She's not particularly devout. She's more of a generic Christian than a practicing Catholic...she goes to mass twice a year. She converted from Lutheran to marry my father.

I find the bolded to be very interesting. What if they converted to a different sect of Christianity but didn't "turn away from God"? I guess I sort of view faith as each person's quest to figure out what they believe, but I suppose I'd feel differently if I really strongly believed in some sort of of tangible religious construct. As it stands, I don't.

And I'm not offended. I never talk to people about stuff like this in real life, so it's nice to discuss it here.
Let me be clear. The most important thing FOR THEM is to inform and sincerely follow their conscience.

That said, converting to a different sect of Christianity would make me feel a little guilty but to a much much smaller degree. I wouldn't be so concerned about the state of their soul as I would if they converted to another faith or no faith at all.

 
Which is why this all comes back to the WHY in why should I believe in A or B or C, when the most honest answer many of us have is that we would probably never believe in B or C because we really don't know much of anything about them or anyone else who believes in them since it's just people on the other side of the planet who tend to believe in those, and so we will believe in A because our parents told us to and because lots of people we hang out with believe in it, so it just sort of makes sense. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
Hi Otis,

I'd agree thinking about the "why" is important.

But I really don't think it's all the parents thing. You'll see one day GB, those kids don't just jump in line to do what you say... ;) Especially when they're 20.

But I do hear you. My kids are more likely to be Christian than Muslim because of how they're raised. No argument there. I just think the parents aren't as big a factor as you might be thinking. And there are also adults who have a resistance to religion because they were raised that way. So it works from all angles. Which is why I say the real way is to figure it out for yourself.

You might like Anne Lamott. She grew up in San Francisco and both her parents were super smart and involved in the intellectual scene of the 60s. Following Jesus was the last thing she wanted to do as she saw it as weak minded or stupid. She's a really talented writer and is pretty much the opposite of what many folks see on TV representing Christians. Here's a 5 minute video from a series she did. This one starts off talking about her alcoholism which probably isn't relevant but in a couple of minutes in she talks about how she started going to her church.

She's got a really good book called Traveling Mercies that talks about her life and how resistant she was to Christianity. And as she says in the video, she's now a "really bad Christian". But believes in doing things badly vs not trying at all. Do what you can. Take your best shot.

J
Interesting, thanks Joe. I think the one basic problem I have with your post is the following:

But I do hear you. My kids are more likely to be Christian than Muslim because of how they're raised. No argument there. I just think the parents aren't as big a factor as you might be thinking. And there are also adults who have a resistance to religion because they were raised that way. So it works from all angles. Which is why I say the real way is to figure it out for yourself.


I think this goes to the heart of my issue or question. My fundamental point is that we PRIMARILY adopt religion as it's given to us. I understand there are exceptions and outliers, lots of them. But on the whole, I have to imagine that the vast, vast majority of people who identify themselves as religious have largely taken on the religions of their parents. I suppose if I could find a study or some data on that, it would either support or refute what is one of the most fundamental assumptions I'm making here.

Because if that is established, I think that's where the big, interesting question comes in. Not only are people having blind faith, but they're having blind faith in the religion that is essentially handed to them, even in the face of all the myriad other religions in the world, and knowing full well that, in all likelihood, had they grown up on the other side of the world, they'd have a completely different belief. I just find that a really interesting choke point in this whole analysis/discussion of religious faith. Again, if my assumption is way off, it's less meaningful. But if my assumption is a good one, it raises what I think are big questions.
Thanks Otis. I think I see and understand what you're saying. And no doubt, what you're saying is at work in some degree. There is some degree of "pressure" for kids to follow their parents in whatever. Be it where they live, what they do for a living and so on.

Where I think we disagree is on two things:.

#1. How much influence the parents really have.

#2 How big a deal that it really is.

Let's say it's something like career choice. Two parents are doctors and they think being a doctor is the greatest thing ever. They want nothing more than their child to grow up to be a doctor. They influence him in every way they can and the child grows up to be a doctor and loves it.

If I were thinking about being a doctor, I'd look at what it meant to be a doctor. Would I consider that some doctors are doctors because their parents were doctors and they did everything they could to influence the child to be a doctor? Maybe. But I honestly wouldn't put that much value on it. I'd focus way more on what it might look for me to be a doctor and figure out if that was for me.

That's maybe not a very good example. But it kind of makes sense to me. I'd look at why people become something. But I'm not sure how much weight I'd put on their parent's influence.

J
I think your #2 above is an important point -- I concede that in the end it doesn't really matter, because if people are HAPPY in their beliefs, and doing good by others, well then who cares how they got to that point. Whatever floats your boat should be good for each and every person.

But the reason I struggle with #1 and find it interesting is that I bet the statistics (if there are any) will bear out that I'm right about this and your view is not accurate. And if it's true -- if we establish that religion is generally the one we happen to inherit from our parents -- then the fundamental question it opens up is how grounded are our beliefs if they are basically just a product of arbitrary chance? If the mere fact that a person was born in New Jersey as opposed to New Delhi is ultimately what determines their faith -- their entire belief system in life -- how logical, or grounded, or reasonable is their belief in the first place? How can they really feel comfortable believing in the basic facts of their religion if it turns out that they would believe completely different basic facts of another religion had they just been born to different parents, or in a different place? And the same hole would apply to people in EVERY religion. So no one religion could then be right, or correct, or true.

And maybe the answer for all the religious people in the world is "look, I don't want to go there, and I don't need to go there, because I like what I like and I'm happy with it and it helps me live a good life." And that's OK too. We all get to spend our days as we please.
Thanks. But I'd say of the two reasons, the second one is really all that matters. It's like the doctor example. Sure there are people that chose to be a doctor because their parents influenced them. Or maybe it was because they got to see the benefits of being a doctor up close as they grew up. Really doesn't matter to the person who didn't have doctor parents and is now choosing.

If you go to a church, I'd be surprised if anyone asks you if your parents are Christians. There isn't any "legacy" system in place. This deal is all about you and God.

But all these are great things to think about. My advice would be to keep seeking answers to the things you see. And by far, person to person is best for that. I don't know if they have a location that's near you, but Redeemer Church in NYC is really well known. The main pastor, Tim Keller is a friend of my pastor. The kinds of things you're asking and questioning are stuff they welcome. I went when I visited the city a couple of years ago and it was real low key. Nobody is going to bother you. If they do, just tell them you're there on an exploratory mission from the FFA and you're trying to decide if any of this stuff is true. That's a big part of their audience and that's great. That's what they're for. Keller's experience in NY has been pretty interesting. He says that most new churches over the years there had gone into NYC with the attitude that they were going into "enemy territory" and that NYC was like a modern day Sodom and Gomorra. Keller's attitude was, "NYC is arguably the greatest city in the world. And tons of people that live here think that. Let's have a church that is part of that instead of a church that treats the city like an enemy".

Make it a FFA field trip. Report back. ;)

J
Interesting. I don't think a church visit is for me, I'll likely be a non-believer for good. But you never know.

The one interesting thing about your analogy is the question about what the kid will be when he grows up. That's a choice. He could choose to be a doctor, or not. Either way, there is no "wrong" or "right," just different choices. But the question I'm really pondering is not why did you CHOOSE a particular religion, but why do you believe that the facts behind that religion are right. It's less a choice then and more a question of what you think really happened in the past. Of course, for the people who don't care of their religion is "true" or right, but they've just concluded it was a choice of theirs to follow one religion over another and that they like it for that reason, none of this matters. For me, if I'm going to believe in something, I need to understand that it's real, and there needs to be some logic and substance there, and so I think that's why religion never had a chance of sticking with me.

 
I mean each person's situation is different, and of course I can't know what's going on in your family, but just wondering whether what you interpret as ashamed might not be just her expression of her own guilt over her kids turning away from the deepest faith of her heart. I am 100% sincere when I say that while of course I will love my kids no matter which faith they choose, if they turn away from God it will easily be the hardest thing I will ever have to face.
I don't mean to offend or upset you, but as a serious Catholic with 4 kids, I have no doubt that if she's a pious Catholic, at least a part of her feels like she has failed at her number one job as a parent. Maybe it comes across as shame to you, but it may be more about guilt than being ashamed of you. I know it would be for me.

I'll be praying for you and her.
She's not particularly devout. She's more of a generic Christian than a practicing Catholic...she goes to mass twice a year. She converted from Lutheran to marry my father.

I find the bolded to be very interesting. What if they converted to a different sect of Christianity but didn't "turn away from God"? I guess I sort of view faith as each person's quest to figure out what they believe, but I suppose I'd feel differently if I really strongly believed in some sort of of tangible religious construct. As it stands, I don't.

And I'm not offended. I never talk to people about stuff like this in real life, so it's nice to discuss it here.
Let me be clear. The most important thing FOR THEM is to inform and sincerely follow their conscience.

That said, converting to a different sect of Christianity would make me feel a little guilty but to a much much smaller degree. I wouldn't be so concerned about the state of their soul as I would if they converted to another faith or no faith at all.
Right, I didn't mean to imply that you didn't want your children to think for themselves. I worded it poorly. What I meant to say is that IMO, everyone should seek to find what they truly believe without constraining themselves to the traditional constructs of organized religion. I don't know if there is a true or "correct" religion, but if someone lives a good life and is at peace with whatever faith - or lack of faith - they have...that's what I'd really hope for my children, I guess. Obviously you're coming from a much different POV than I am.

Gotta run though, Easter brunch is calling. Have a happy Easter.

 
It's not just parental influence Oats - the social pressures to participate in the predominant local religion also play a role. Especially in smaller towns, there are big social and economic benefits to joining the local masses.

Geography is the best predictor of ones religious beliefs. The college football fan analogy is often used when people talk about this issue.
This comment is timely. We have not baptized our daughters (despite parents on both sides pressing us to), and have lived in a mixed religion town with all types. We are about to move to a town that is over 90 percent Roman catholic, and likely will get them baptized and participating for that reason. We don't want them to feel excluded, and some golden rule stuff can't hurt. I suspect religion propagates this way pretty commonly too.
Your daughter having morality reinforced (im sure you both teach her it already) is never a bad thing. Also, you might bring her comfort in her thinking there is more to life than this, and if that comfort makes her happier and able to deal with the death that will come in her life then is that really a bad thing either? we all have this need to believe in something and believing in nothing is a rather depressing, and I feel like that is part of the reason everyone is so medicated because they believe in nothing.
When you say "medicated", are you referring to religious folks participating in religious activities?

 
It's not just parental influence Oats - the social pressures to participate in the predominant local religion also play a role. Especially in smaller towns, there are big social and economic benefits to joining the local masses.

Geography is the best predictor of ones religious beliefs. The college football fan analogy is often used when people talk about this issue.
This comment is timely. We have not baptized our daughters (despite parents on both sides pressing us to), and have lived in a mixed religion town with all types. We are about to move to a town that is over 90 percent Roman catholic, and likely will get them baptized and participating for that reason. We don't want them to feel excluded, and some golden rule stuff can't hurt. I suspect religion propagates this way pretty commonly too.
This seems like a strange approach from a non-believer.

 
It's not just parental influence Oats - the social pressures to participate in the predominant local religion also play a role. Especially in smaller towns, there are big social and economic benefits to joining the local masses.

Geography is the best predictor of ones religious beliefs. The college football fan analogy is often used when people talk about this issue.
This comment is timely. We have not baptized our daughters (despite parents on both sides pressing us to), and have lived in a mixed religion town with all types. We are about to move to a town that is over 90 percent Roman catholic, and likely will get them baptized and participating for that reason. We don't want them to feel excluded, and some golden rule stuff can't hurt. I suspect religion propagates this way pretty commonly too.
I've lived a similar life Otis. All three of my kids were baptized in the Catholic Church. Why? Because, it seemed to be the right thing to do. And was easier than explaining things to my parents. There is a certain amount of guilt that I felt as I tried to find my own path.

I still struggle with my own beliefs. My Grandfather passed away two weeks ago. He was a devout Catholic (attended Church daily for the past 30 years) I haven't been to Church since the last funeral/wedding, but I felt compelled to receive communion and participate fully. Not for myself, but rather to avoid disrespecting my Grandfather and my Father.

This is exactly how the first 18 years of my life were. I didn't and couldn't question religion. It was something I had to do to appease my parents. I honestly don't think their approach did anything to strengthen my faith. If anything it drove me farther from it.

 
It's not just parental influence Oats - the social pressures to participate in the predominant local religion also play a role. Especially in smaller towns, there are big social and economic benefits to joining the local masses.

Geography is the best predictor of ones religious beliefs. The college football fan analogy is often used when people talk about this issue.
This comment is timely. We have not baptized our daughters (despite parents on both sides pressing us to), and have lived in a mixed religion town with all types. We are about to move to a town that is over 90 percent Roman catholic, and likely will get them baptized and participating for that reason. We don't want them to feel excluded, and some golden rule stuff can't hurt. I suspect religion propagates this way pretty commonly too.
This seems like a strange approach from a non-believer.
Why's that? You don't do things for your children's own good even if it would not be your first choice?

 
It's not just parental influence Oats - the social pressures to participate in the predominant local religion also play a role. Especially in smaller towns, there are big social and economic benefits to joining the local masses.

Geography is the best predictor of ones religious beliefs. The college football fan analogy is often used when people talk about this issue.
This comment is timely. We have not baptized our daughters (despite parents on both sides pressing us to), and have lived in a mixed religion town with all types. We are about to move to a town that is over 90 percent Roman catholic, and likely will get them baptized and participating for that reason. We don't want them to feel excluded, and some golden rule stuff can't hurt. I suspect religion propagates this way pretty commonly too.
I've lived a similar life Otis. All three of my kids were baptized in the Catholic Church. Why? Because, it seemed to be the right thing to do. And was easier than explaining things to my parents. There is a certain amount of guilt that I felt as I tried to find my own path.I still struggle with my own beliefs. My Grandfather passed away two weeks ago. He was a devout Catholic (attended Church daily for the past 30 years) I haven't been to Church since the last funeral/wedding, but I felt compelled to receive communion and participate fully. Not for myself, but rather to avoid disrespecting my Grandfather and my Father.

This is exactly how the first 18 years of my life were. I didn't and couldn't question religion. It was something I had to do to appease my parents. I honestly don't think their approach did anything to strengthen my faith. If anything it drove me farther from it.
This is how it was for me too. Everything religion related growing up was just a series of going through the motions. It was just another subject in school. Just a very boring hour on a Sunday, etc.

 
It's not just parental influence Oats - the social pressures to participate in the predominant local religion also play a role. Especially in smaller towns, there are big social and economic benefits to joining the local masses.

Geography is the best predictor of ones religious beliefs. The college football fan analogy is often used when people talk about this issue.
This comment is timely. We have not baptized our daughters (despite parents on both sides pressing us to), and have lived in a mixed religion town with all types. We are about to move to a town that is over 90 percent Roman catholic, and likely will get them baptized and participating for that reason. We don't want them to feel excluded, and some golden rule stuff can't hurt. I suspect religion propagates this way pretty commonly too.
Your daughter having morality reinforced (im sure you both teach her it already) is never a bad thing. Also, you might bring her comfort in her thinking there is more to life than this, and if that comfort makes her happier and able to deal with the death that will come in her life then is that really a bad thing either? we all have this need to believe in something and believing in nothing is a rather depressing, and I feel like that is part of the reason everyone is so medicated because they believe in nothing.
I believe this life and nature and science and this world are pretty amazing, incredible, "spuritual" things already. I love being with my family and friends. I don't need a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow; I get plenty of joy and meaning out of the rainbow itself.

 
It's all brain chemicals. People have a physiological reaction that convinces them there is something real and tangible there, so that's "proof" enough. Same thing happens when people fall in love, or watch a sad movie. Human emotions are easily manipulated.

 
It's not just parental influence Oats - the social pressures to participate in the predominant local religion also play a role. Especially in smaller towns, there are big social and economic benefits to joining the local masses.

Geography is the best predictor of ones religious beliefs. The college football fan analogy is often used when people talk about this issue.
This comment is timely. We have not baptized our daughters (despite parents on both sides pressing us to), and have lived in a mixed religion town with all types. We are about to move to a town that is over 90 percent Roman catholic, and likely will get them baptized and participating for that reason. We don't want them to feel excluded, and some golden rule stuff can't hurt. I suspect religion propagates this way pretty commonly too.
This seems like a strange approach from a non-believer.
Why's that? You don't do things for your children's own good even if it would not be your first choice?
I'm guessing our opinion of what is in our children's best interest is where our opinions diverge. And to be fair, I don't have to deal with family or community pressures like it sounds like you have to deal with, so I'm not saying your choices are wrong. I can't say what I would do if I faced those same pressures. Hopefully I would have the courage to have a frank conversation with my parents and in laws, and I would likely not move to an area where religious indoctrination was required for my kids to fit in. But those are hopes; I certainly understand choosing the path of least resistance and going through the motions.

 
Otis, it is natural to feel guilty for giving in to peer pressure. Your parents baptized you but you're not exactly a devout Catholic. Your kids will not be locked in neither. Just make sure your kids know what you think when they're older.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Otis, it is natural to feel guilty for giving in to peer pressure. Your parents baptized you but you're not exactly a devout Catholic. Your kids will not be locked in neither. Just make sure your kids know what you think when they're older.
I don't feel bad about it to be honest. My kids are going to have a healthy dose of science and math and reality. Still I'd have some guilt if I deprived them of the chance I had to at least test the waters and decide for myself. But I don't expect anyone will be seeing is at church very often unless my wife gives in to peer pressure or feels it is necessary.

 
Otis, it is natural to feel guilty for giving in to peer pressure. Your parents baptized you but you're not exactly a devout Catholic. Your kids will not be locked in neither. Just make sure your kids know what you think when they're older.
I don't feel bad about it to be honest. My kids are going to have a healthy dose of science and math and reality. Still I'd have some guilt if I deprived them of the chance I had to at least test the waters and decide for myself. But I don't expect anyone will be seeing is at church very often unless my wife gives in to peer pressure or feels it is necessary.
Are you wasting my time because you had to eat fish on Good Friday?

I like fish. :hot:

 
Otis, it is natural to feel guilty for giving in to peer pressure. Your parents baptized you but you're not exactly a devout Catholic. Your kids will not be locked in neither. Just make sure your kids know what you think when they're older.
I don't feel bad about it to be honest. My kids are going to have a healthy dose of science and math and reality. Still I'd have some guilt if I deprived them of the chance I had to at least test the waters and decide for myself. But I don't expect anyone will be seeing is at church very often unless my wife gives in to peer pressure or feels it is necessary.
Are you wasting my time because you had to eat fish on Good Friday?

I like fish. :hot:
I could stand to eat a lot more fish, might help my diet some.

 
Separation from his instinctual nature inevitably plunges civilized man into the conflict between conscious and unconscious, spirit and nature, knowledge and faith ... In contrast to the subjectivism of the conscious mind, the unconscious is objective, manifesting itself mainly in the form of contrary feelings, fantasies, emotions, impulses and dreams, none of which one makes oneself, but which come upon one objectively ... The religious person, so far as one can judge, stands directly under the influence of the reaction from the unconscious. (Carl Jung, The Undiscovered Self)

 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top