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Carrier Air Conditioner moving to Mexico (1 Viewer)

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Footballguy

Workers at a Carrier Air Conditioner plant in Indianapolis were summoned to a group assembly this week to be told their jobs would soon be moving to Monterrey, Mexico. In all, 1,400 jobs are expected to be lost.

This is pretty sad.  They handle it very well.

 
If only the Americans would work longer for lower wages - or pay a higher price for goods made in America. Or if only the shareholders would accept a lower dividend/share price. 

It's almost as if the workers and consumers are begging for the jobs to move away

 
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msommer said:
If only the Americans wold work longer for lower wages - or pay a higher price for goods made in America. Or if only the shareholders would accept a lower dividend/share price. 

It's almost as if the workers and consumers are begging for the jobs to move away
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A number of these types of manufacturing jobs were sent overseas and then ended up coming back. The higher wages of American workers (often even further inflated by being union shops) made the overseas move very tempting however once there they found a number of other problems such as quality, operating in a foreign business/government environment, corporate espionage, and more- pushing some of those operations back to the US. Then they end up having a problem finding the skilled labor because the people that use to be skilled labor in manufacturing moved on or retired.

 
So are you saying the jobs are going to come back or are you saying they are leaving for the second time?

 
"During this transition we must stay committed to manufacturing high quality systems as always"

"YEA #### YOU"

:lmao:

 
msommer said:
So are you saying the jobs are going to come back or are you saying they are leaving for the second time?
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Not so much about Carrier specifically but the trend over the years. There has been a significant amount of manufacturing that has returned to the US or would like to return to the US.

 
Chadstroma said:
A number of these types of manufacturing jobs were sent overseas and then ended up coming back. The higher wages of American workers (often even further inflated by being union shops) made the overseas move very tempting however once there they found a number of other problems such as quality, operating in a foreign business/government environment, corporate espionage, and more- pushing some of those operations back to the US. Then they end up having a problem finding the skilled labor because the people that use to be skilled labor in manufacturing moved on or retired.
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Anything real behind this statement or just anecdotes?

 
Ministry of Pain said:
I'm with you. 

I wouldn't want to buy a Carrier AC unit going forward on this information.
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I agree. I'm tired of US companies dumping on the same US market that got them doing so well. Yes, I and many members of my family have been positively affected by stocks in these same companies, but all the moving HQs to avoid paying taxes and stuff like this pisses me off so much more now.

 
Chadstroma said:
Not so much about Carrier specifically but the trend over the years. There has been a significant amount of manufacturing that has returned to the US or would like to return to the US.
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Again, that is a great statement on a message board, but any actual data on this? Sort of like saying all those companies would like to move their profits back into the US, but they just can't find the right tax rates to do so.

Well the US will have the last laugh when all those companies move enough out of the US that they cripple their own #1 markets as there aren't enough US consumers with any $$$.

 
stbugs said:
I agree. I'm tired of US companies dumping on the same US market that got them doing so well. Yes, I and many members of my family have been positively affected by stocks in these same companies, but all the moving HQs to avoid paying taxes and stuff like this pisses me off so much more now.
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I agree. With a straight face, more than happy to have a little less in the 401K, 403B, pensions, just do it the right way. I am willing to pay more for things and have less overall things but make sure that all folks can work. 

Roughly 70% of this country does not have a college degree. We cannot stop creating manufacturing and blue collar type labor in this country. We cannot allow technology and machines to rid America of jobs. We need these jobs so that everyone can be a productive member of society. 

 
Card Trader said:
Who coulda seen this coming...
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Ross Perot. This benefits Trump, and watch him start talking about protectionism so that he might win votes in the Rust Belt. 

Not arguing for Trump, just waiting. He's a Reform Party candidate once upon a time, and Republican protectionism was their screed. 

 
Chadstroma said:
Not so much about Carrier specifically but the trend over the years. There has been a significant amount of manufacturing that has returned to the US or would like to return to the US.
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There are a few things in play, it's not to cheap to produce in particularly (Southern) China any more, the capital cost of inventories enroute from there to the consumer markets becomes very high, the complexity of the supply chain grows and the risk of disruptions in the supply chain also increased.

Rather than off shoring near-shoring (which is what Carrier is doing) is becoming more prevalent, as is on-shoring but whether that eventually reverses the net flow remains to be seen.

In essence, the consumers' quest for cheaper stuff and global competition are the driving forces behind off shoring, but many  companies underestimate the total cost to the supply chain when they take the decision. In terms of competition you would have to come up with a compelling argument why someone should buy a carrier a/c over e.g. a daikin one provided the functionality of both meet your needs. Child labor, environmental abuses, bad work environment etc could be such compelling arguments for some, as keep jobs in America are for others.

Corporations needs to cater to the whims of their markets but if they can tell a compelling story that exemplifies why their product should be chosen by the target audience and they are within certain economic parameters they will. But obviously the purchasers of e.g.  airconditioning units are not a uniform group

 
msommer said:
There are a few things in play, it's not to cheap to produce in particularly (Southern) China any more, the capital cost of inventories enroute from there to the consumer markets becomes very high, the complexity of the supply chain grows and the risk of disruptions in the supply chain also increased.

Rather than off shoring near-shoring (which is what Carrier is doing) is becoming more prevalent, as is on-shoring but whether that eventually reverses the net flow remains to be seen.

In essence, the consumers' quest for cheaper stuff and global competition are the driving forces behind off shoring, but many  companies underestimate the total cost to the supply chain when they take the decision. In terms of competition you would have to come up with a compelling argument why someone should buy a carrier a/c over e.g. a daikin one provided the functionality of both meet your needs. Child labor, environmental abuses, bad work environment etc could be such compelling arguments for some, as keep jobs in America are for others.

Corporations needs to cater to the whims of their markets but if they can tell a compelling story that exemplifies why their product should be chosen by the target audience and they are within certain economic parameters they will. But obviously the purchasers of e.g.  airconditioning units are not a uniform group
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See, e.g., American Apparel

You'll pay the extra two bucks if it gets into your consciousness sometimes, all other things constant.  

 
stbugs said:
Again, that is a great statement on a message board, but any actual data on this? Sort of like saying all those companies would like to move their profits back into the US, but they just can't find the right tax rates to do so.

Well the US will have the last laugh when all those companies move enough out of the US that they cripple their own #1 markets as there aren't enough US consumers with any $$$.
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I have read a few articles over the last few years basically showing how a number of manufacturing jobs have come back or would like to come back or have come back and have had a hard time finding qualified employees to hire. I am not saying that this is a universal situation but it certainly is a reality- how many? I don't know. I wouldn't begin to know where to dig up those articles for you and don't have the energy/time/desire to google up data for you.

Don't place an over emphasis on that either. I am not saying Carrier will have the same experience. It is more of the reality of business that the higher wages tend to push companies to look for lower wages which often means overseas. Unions have a big part of that in these manufacturing jobs. But going over seas with lower labor costs is not always a great solution. Sometimes it really is always greener on the other side of the fence and some companies have found that they preferred the higher wages to other issues they end up encountering in moving over seas.

 
Ministry of Pain said:
Roughly 70% of this country does not have a college degree. We cannot stop creating manufacturing and blue collar type labor in this country. We cannot allow technology and machines to rid America of jobs. We need these jobs so that everyone can be a productive member of society. 
Click to expand...
Question:
What are the trends in the educational level of the United States population?

Response:
Between 1990 and 2014, educational attainment rates among 25- to 29-year-olds increased. The percentage who had received at least a high school diploma or its equivalent increased from 86 to 91 percent, with most of the change (4 percentage points) occurring between 2004 and 2014. The percentage who had completed a bachelor's or higher degree increased from 23 percent in 1990 to 34 percent in 2014; and the percentage who had completed a master's or higher degree increased from 5 percent in 1995 to 8 percent in 2014.
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Looks like more kids are getting the message.

 
Chadstroma said:
And supply and demand means that those bachelor degrees mean a little less than they use to.
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Yes and no. Labor isn't just a cost, it's also an asset. A better educated and trained workforce ends up benefitting the market as a whole (assuming they're being trained in needed areas rather than History of Interpretive Dance)

 
GroveDiesel said:
Yes and no. Labor isn't just a cost, it's also an asset. A better educated and trained workforce ends up benefitting the market as a whole (assuming they're being trained in needed areas rather than History of Interpretive Dance)
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Agreed. Overall, it is good for the nation to have educated workforce and even more so for an economy like ours. For the individual though- a bachelors degree is not nearly as valuable as it was maybe even just 10 years ago. There are other reasons for this but one of them certainly is that more people have bachelors degrees. So, employers do not have to pay a premium to get someone with one as they use to before. Now, if they want to really cut through the application avalanche and get to the cream- they will look for a Masters degree in the same position that before they would just ask for a bachelors. The entire way that large corporations hire these day is insane so it is not 'right' but it is the reality of the world as it is changing.

 
I feel bad for these people.  They know they are going to lose their job, but must stay at that job till the end.  Some will probably even be asked to show people in Mexico how to do the work they are losing.  Had a plant go out of business here in Oklahoma that was made drills, and the people were given bonuses to finish up work, clean the factory, help move the equipment to Mexico, and show people how to do their jobs.  All for a few extra dollars.  

Sad that these people can't just say #### it in unison and walk out. 

 
Is it difficult to sneak into Mexico for work if there are jobs there that Mexicans just won't do?  Will It be difficult for me without documents?  Can I get bye with only minimal command of the language?  If I impregnate a local gal and she delivers our baby am I a citizen?

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
Is it difficult to sneak into Mexico for work if there are jobs there that Mexicans just won't do?  Will It be difficult for me without documents?  Can I get bye with only minimal command of the language?  If I impregnate a local gal and she delivers our baby am I a citizen?
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Mexicans don't mess around. If you are illegal.... er, I mean, undocumented..... they boot ya faster than you can say 'adios'. If you try to get papers but they deem that you upset the natural demographics of their country then they will say 'no gracias'.

 
Chadstroma said:
Mexicans don't mess around. If you are illegal.... er, I mean, undocumented..... they boot ya faster than you can say 'adios'. If you try to get papers but they deem that you upset the natural demographics of their country then they will say 'no gracias'.
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Liberals want to turn the country into Europe; Trump wants to turn us into Mexico.

 
I'd also point out that Indy is not Carriers only US manufacturing facility.  I know they have an operation here in Charlotte, I have a good friend who has been with Carrier for 16+ years in Athens, GA, and I used to work on their Syracuse facility a really, really long time ago.  It's very possible this facility was having cost issues (possibly related to labor unions). 

 I know the unions made things tough in Syracuse, not sure how they are doing now.  I know they moved my buddy from there to GA, so maybe not so good.

 
moleculo said:
Yes it's gonna help, or yes it's gonna hurt?
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Hurt. I actually dated a girl from up in W. Carthage, NY (two hours north and east [?] of 'Cuse) and they lost their paper mill because of the wages and benefits being demanded by the union and their representatives. But that's a case study, and inductive.  

eta* I was speaking broadly. If Carrier was willing to move, then certainly it will move again.  

 
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rockaction said:
Hurt. I actually dated a girl from up in W. Carthage, NY (two hours north and east [?] of 'Cuse) and they lost their paper mill because of the wages and benefits being demanded by the union and their representatives. But that's a case study, and inductive.  

eta* I was speaking broadly. If Carrier was willing to move, then certainly it will move again.  
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That's not due to the minimum wage though.  It just makes good business sense to move production to low labor cost countries.

 
cstu said:
That's not due to the minimum wage though.  It just makes good business sense to move production to low labor cost countries.
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Higher min wage drives up manufacturing wage which increases the labor cost advantage Mexico and China enjoy.

 
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cstu said:
That's not due to the minimum wage though.  It just makes good business sense to move production to low labor cost countries.
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1. This board is really messed up in the quoting function

2. I can't see how a huge jump in the minimum wage combined with free trade agreements doesn't cause more companies to leave for other countries. But that is for serious economists.  

 
Chadstroma said:
And supply and demand means that those bachelor degrees mean a little less than they use to.
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True, but it's still valuable and there's a limit to what percentage of people are capable of getting a bachelors degree. Doubt we'll ever see the college rate much higher even if college were free - university is free in Germany and they have a lower bachelors degree rate than the U.S.

 
Is there anything worse than listening to some insincere ####knob in a suit telling you how sorry they are and how difficult of a decision this was (interspersed between when he was telling them to quiet down)?

Don't bother with that ####.   You're ####### us.  we get it.   don't make it worse by insulting our intelligence.   

 
rockaction said:
I can't see how a huge jump in the minimum wage combined with free trade agreements doesn't cause more companies to leave for other countries. But that is for serious economists.  
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Factory workers are already making more than $15. You could argue that a higher minimum wage puts wage pressure on people with higher wages, but unions know if they demand too much the company will move the factory.

 
cstu said:
True, but it's still valuable and there's a limit to what percentage of people are capable of getting a bachelors degree. Doubt we'll ever see the college rate much higher even if college were free - university is free in Germany and they have a lower bachelors degree rate than the U.S.
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While a bachelor's degree no longer gives you an advantage, not having one puts you at a pretty severe disadvantage for a lot of jobs.

 
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