Catholics - Why Pray to Mary/Saints Instead of God Directly? (1 Viewer)

[cstu]

Seems a convoluted way to get a message to God.

"Hey Mary, pass this on to Jesus, will ya?"

do you ever ask someone to pray for you? same thing

I don't but people who do at least aren't bothering dead people who should be enjoying eternity in paradise, not lobbying God to help you.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

Haven't read anything yet, but-

I don't think I want to tell directly the all powerful, all knowing guy with the master plan for all of us that he messed up and needs to correct a few things. Better to vent to someone down the food chain without the history of willingness to smite.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

Boy, with that much room for error in interpretation, you'd think Christ would have set up some sort of authoritative body to safeguard the truth.

Nah, the largely headless communities Paul mentored worked out just fine.

 

[cstu]

The only days the Bible commands us to remember are the Jewish Holy Days, of which Christmas is not a part of, nor is Easter. Passover is close to Easter, but is not Easter. So if Christians are supposed to be remembering specific days, they've chosen two that don't matter to God, and ignore the ones that do.

Technically God just told Jews to remember those days, not Christians. The only reason Christians read the OT is because Constantine chose to have both the OT and NT as part of the Bible. He also chose which books of the NT to include and the idea of a Trinity over Jesus being a created being (Arianism).

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

They aren't dead. they are alive in heaven. hth

You sure about that? (I confess that I don't really know how to properly interpret this passage into the context of other beliefs.)

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

See, both the Roman church and the protestant church have their issuses.

This is true. One however is the source of the mess, whereas the other is trying to clean it up. The problem being, how can something unclean clean something.

The fact of the matter is that Christianity, born in Jerusalem was taken to Rome, just as it should be taken to all the world. The problem is the Christian's in Rome bastardized Christianity by morphing a ton of pagan practices into it creating Roman Catholicism. The worldwide reach of the Roman Empire allowed for the worldwide distribution of this pagan corrupted presentation of Christianity called the Roman Catholic church. 1500 years later you were either a Roman Catholic, or a heretic.

The protestant reformation was without a doubt a change in the right direction, but again, protestants are sinners just like Catholics are sinners. Thus the cleaning up of the mess didn't produce a new clean church. Issues still remain. And as more messes are attempted to be cleaned, you end up with all different kinds of beliefs and churches. It's just one big mess.

Again, it goes back to pagan practices be adopted by the Christians in Rome. Protestant churches LOVE celebrating Christmas. They would never let that practice go. But Christmas is a pagan celebration. Jesus never commanded the church to celebrate his birthday. And even if he did, it wasn't Dec 25th. Protestat churches LOVE celebrating Easter. They would never let that practice go. But Easter is a pagan celebration (despite Jesus having risen on Easter sunday). Jesus never commanded the church to celebrate his death. He told us to break bread of his body, and drink the wine of his blood, in rememberence of him. We remember his sacrifice when we do this, not the day he did it. The only days the Bible commands us to remember are the Jewish Holy Days, of which Christmas is not a part of, nor is Easter. Passover is close to Easter, but is not Easter. So if Christians are supposed to be remembering specific days, they've chosen two that don't matter to God, and ignore the ones that do. Or if the Law is past, we aren't supposed to remember any. Yet, try suggesting to even protestant Christians that Christmas and Easter aren't religous days, but are instead pagan practices morphed into Christianity by the early Christians in Rome, and you'll be asked to leave the church. Very few, if any churches, want to even consider that.... except fringe churches like Seventh Day Adventists, which also have their own issues.

Do you really want to worship a God that really cares all that much how his less than perfect creation celebrate Jesus? Or, even whiff on the message in small or big ways?

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

It's not the lack of a commandment from Jesus that makes them pagan celebrations. It's the fact that pagans invented the celebrations that makes them pagan celebrations.

Maybe I'm picky, but if there is no ritual orgy involved I don't count it as a pagan celebration.

 

[Politician Spock]

See, both the Roman church and the protestant church have their issuses.

This is true. One however is the source of the mess, whereas the other is trying to clean it up. The problem being, how can something unclean clean something.

The fact of the matter is that Christianity, born in Jerusalem was taken to Rome, just as it should be taken to all the world. The problem is the Christian's in Rome bastardized Christianity by morphing a ton of pagan practices into it creating Roman Catholicism. The worldwide reach of the Roman Empire allowed for the worldwide distribution of this pagan corrupted presentation of Christianity called the Roman Catholic church. 1500 years later you were either a Roman Catholic, or a heretic.

The protestant reformation was without a doubt a change in the right direction, but again, protestants are sinners just like Catholics are sinners. Thus the cleaning up of the mess didn't produce a new clean church. Issues still remain. And as more messes are attempted to be cleaned, you end up with all different kinds of beliefs and churches. It's just one big mess.

Again, it goes back to pagan practices be adopted by the Christians in Rome. Protestant churches LOVE celebrating Christmas. They would never let that practice go. But Christmas is a pagan celebration. Jesus never commanded the church to celebrate his birthday. And even if he did, it wasn't Dec 25th. Protestat churches LOVE celebrating Easter. They would never let that practice go. But Easter is a pagan celebration (despite Jesus having risen on Easter sunday). Jesus never commanded the church to celebrate his death. He told us to break bread of his body, and drink the wine of his blood, in rememberence of him. We remember his sacrifice when we do this, not the day he did it. The only days the Bible commands us to remember are the Jewish Holy Days, of which Christmas is not a part of, nor is Easter. Passover is close to Easter, but is not Easter. So if Christians are supposed to be remembering specific days, they've chosen two that don't matter to God, and ignore the ones that do. Or if the Law is past, we aren't supposed to remember any. Yet, try suggesting to even protestant Christians that Christmas and Easter aren't religous days, but are instead pagan practices morphed into Christianity by the early Christians in Rome, and you'll be asked to leave the church. Very few, if any churches, want to even consider that.... except fringe churches like Seventh Day Adventists, which also have their own issues.

Do you really want to worship a God that really cares all that much how his less than perfect creation celebrate Jesus? Or, even whiff on the message in small or big ways?

I'm not defining who God is. I'm showing where Christian religions got a lot of what they practice from. Most of it is probably harmless in God's eyes. Some of it is not.

 

[Politician Spock]

The only days the Bible commands us to remember are the Jewish Holy Days, of which Christmas is not a part of, nor is Easter. Passover is close to Easter, but is not Easter. So if Christians are supposed to be remembering specific days, they've chosen two that don't matter to God, and ignore the ones that do.

Technically God just told Jews to remember those days, not Christians. The only reason Christians read the OT is because Constantine chose to have both the OT and NT as part of the Bible. He also chose which books of the NT to include and the idea of a Trinity over Jesus being a created being (Arianism).

You edited out the part of my post that says the same as the bolded. I also agree with you about book choices being determined by a preference of one belief over another.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

Seems a convoluted way to get a message to God.

"Hey Mary, pass this on to Jesus, will ya?"

Then you have to hope Jesus gets the message right when he passes it on to God. Sometimes there's a lot of information in the inflection and specific verbiage that can be lost in both translation and the retelling. Ask Mary to ask Jesus what the bible originally looked like. Dios mio!

Per the Catholic dogma of the "Holy Trinity," Jesus and God are the same person.

Not quite...

That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost.

As I have posted before I spent many Sunday mornings pre-service trying to figure out exactly what this creed is supposed to mean.

 

[timschochet]

If God exists, why would He care about how He is worshipped? I mean, you're talking about a guy capable of creating an entire universe and everything in it. Wouldn't this issue be a little petty for Him to be concerned about?

 

[Todd Andrews]

As human beings it's easier to feel emotion/gratitude/love/etc. towards something that you can picture concretely than it is to something unknowable/unfathomable.

Anthropomorphism is the best!!

 

[Politician Spock]

If God exists, why would He care about how He is worshipped?

He doesn't.

I mean, you're talking about a guy capable of creating an entire universe and everything in it. Wouldn't this issue be a little petty for Him to be concerned about?

What he cares about is when we worship something other than him.

 

[timschochet]

If God exists, why would He care about how He is worshipped?

He doesn't.

I mean, you're talking about a guy capable of creating an entire universe and everything in it. Wouldn't this issue be a little petty for Him to be concerned about?

What he cares about is when we worship something other than him.

Why would He care about that either? (I get that, per the Bible, He does- it's the first commandment. By why?)

 

[mr roboto]

Isn't the issue of pagan celebrations being Christianized similar to the meat sacrificed to idols in the NT? It's a matter of conscience and Christian liberty. The form of a celebration does not define its 'appropriateness' unless part of the form in and if itself is sinful. Similar arguments are made regarding using the form of music that is often born from secular roots (rap, rock, heavy metal) to write sacred music, doing yoga (an eastern spiritual practice) as a form of exercise by divorcing the spiritual meaning from the physical form etc.

I guess what I'm getting at is it's not automatically wrong to attach sacred meaning to a secular or pagan form.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

See, both the Roman church and the protestant church have their issuses.

This is true. One however is the source of the mess, whereas the other is trying to clean it up. The problem being, how can something unclean clean something.

The fact of the matter is that Christianity, born in Jerusalem was taken to Rome, just as it should be taken to all the world. The problem is the Christian's in Rome bastardized Christianity by morphing a ton of pagan practices into it creating Roman Catholicism. The worldwide reach of the Roman Empire allowed for the worldwide distribution of this pagan corrupted presentation of Christianity called the Roman Catholic church. 1500 years later you were either a Roman Catholic, or a heretic.

The protestant reformation was without a doubt a change in the right direction, but again, protestants are sinners just like Catholics are sinners. Thus the cleaning up of the mess didn't produce a new clean church. Issues still remain. And as more messes are attempted to be cleaned, you end up with all different kinds of beliefs and churches. It's just one big mess.

Again, it goes back to pagan practices be adopted by the Christians in Rome. Protestant churches LOVE celebrating Christmas. They would never let that practice go. But Christmas is a pagan celebration. Jesus never commanded the church to celebrate his birthday. And even if he did, it wasn't Dec 25th. Protestat churches LOVE celebrating Easter. They would never let that practice go. But Easter is a pagan celebration (despite Jesus having risen on Easter sunday). Jesus never commanded the church to celebrate his death. He told us to break bread of his body, and drink the wine of his blood, in rememberence of him. We remember his sacrifice when we do this, not the day he did it. The only days the Bible commands us to remember are the Jewish Holy Days, of which Christmas is not a part of, nor is Easter. Passover is close to Easter, but is not Easter. So if Christians are supposed to be remembering specific days, they've chosen two that don't matter to God, and ignore the ones that do. Or if the Law is past, we aren't supposed to remember any. Yet, try suggesting to even protestant Christians that Christmas and Easter aren't religous days, but are instead pagan practices morphed into Christianity by the early Christians in Rome, and you'll be asked to leave the church. Very few, if any churches, want to even consider that.... except fringe churches like Seventh Day Adventists, which also have their own issues.

Do you really want to worship a God that really cares all that much how his less than perfect creation celebrate Jesus? Or, even whiff on the message in small or big ways?

I'm not defining who God is. I'm showing where Christian religions got a lot of what they practice from. Most of it is probably harmless in God's eyes. Some of it is not.

Sure. You could be putting meaningless stuff ahead of "Loving thy neighbor", but we are imperfect beings that do that all the time anyway. I would think that thinking a Christmas tree shows our love for God just reminds God of how hard that seemingly simple command is in practice.

 

[Psychopav]

Seems a convoluted way to get a message to God.

"Hey Mary, pass this on to Jesus, will ya?"

Then you have to hope Jesus gets the message right when he passes it on to God. Sometimes there's a lot of information in the inflection and specific verbiage that can be lost in both translation and the retelling. Ask Mary to ask Jesus what the bible originally looked like. Dios mio!

Per the Catholic dogma of the "Holy Trinity," Jesus and God are the same person.

Not quite...

That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost.

As I have posted before I spent many Sunday mornings pre-service trying to figure out exactly what this creed is supposed to mean.

It's a mystery. It's not the only one, but it's a good one!

 

[Politician Spock]

Isn't the issue of pagan celebrations being Christianized similar to the meat sacrificed to idols in the NT? It's a matter of conscience and Christian liberty. The form of a celebration does not define its 'appropriateness' unless part of the form in and if itself is sinful. Similar arguments are made regarding using the form of music that is often born from secular roots (rap, rock, heavy metal) to write sacred music, doing yoga (an eastern spiritual practice) as a form of exercise by divorcing the spiritual meaning from the physical form etc.

I guess what I'm getting at is it's not automatically wrong to attach sacred meaning to a secular or pagan form.

Yep. I agree. The Christmas and Easter examples were just that... EXAMPLES. I used them because they are the easiest examples for people to understand that the early Roman Christians adopted a lot of pagan practices. The harder concepts to understand are like the topic of the thread... praying to a woman who gave birth to God. And as others have pointed out, praying to other deceased people for specific reasons. These are things the pagans were doing before Jesus was even born. There are books written on the subject of how many, many, MANY practices Roman Catholics engage in mirror what pagans were doing before Christianity.

Again, most of it is probably harmless. But I believe some of it is not. Praying to anyone other than God is not something I want to risk doing. But that's just me.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

If God exists, why would He care about how He is worshipped?

He doesn't.

I mean, you're talking about a guy capable of creating an entire universe and everything in it. Wouldn't this issue be a little petty for Him to be concerned about?

What he cares about is when we worship something other than him.

Why would He care about that either? (I get that, per the Bible, He does- it's the first commandment. By why?)

Depending on how you number them I think you are OK with the first as long as God comes first, it is the second commandment that gets you.

Exodus 20New International Version (NIV)
The Ten Commandments[SIZE=1.25em]20 [/SIZE]And God spoke all these words:

[SIZE=.75em]2 [/SIZE]“I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

[SIZE=.75em]3 [/SIZE]“You shall have no other gods before me.

[SIZE=.75em]4 [/SIZE]“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. [SIZE=.75em]5 [/SIZE]You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, [SIZE=.75em]6 [/SIZE]but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
But for Christians this is all obsolete anyway

Hebrews 8:13New International Version (NIV)
[SIZE=.75em]13 [/SIZE]By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Wow way to bring the religious division into the FFA.

 

[Thunderlips]

My understanding (and I'm no authority on this) is that different saints are best suited to help you with different things you're praying for. For example, St. Patrick is the saint to pray to if you wanted to drive away a snake, but if you wanted to chat with that snake instead then St. Francis is your guy.

St. Michael the Archangel,

defend us in battle.

Be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the Devil.

May God rebuke him, we humbly pray,

and do thou,

O Prince of the heavenly hosts,

by the power of God,

thrust into hell Satan,

and all the evil spirits,

who prowl about the world

seeking the ruin of souls. Amen..

That's a nice Catholic battle prayer.

 

[timschochet]

The Ulster Prods knew how to deal with Papists! We need some good Orange drinking songs in this thread.

 

[quickhands]

The Ulster Prods knew how to deal with Papists! We need some good Orange drinking songs in this thread.

that's not funny.

 

[belljr]

it goes God, to Jerry to the cleaners , to you. Right Kent

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

If God exists, why would He care about how He is worshipped?

He doesn't.

You're right. He doesn't exist.

 

[timschochet]

The Ulster Prods knew how to deal with Papists! We need some good Orange drinking songs in this thread.

that's not funny.

Lighten up, Francis of Assisi.

 

[quickhands]

The Ulster Prods knew how to deal with Papists! We need some good Orange drinking songs in this thread.

that's not funny.

Lighten up, Francis of Assisi.

nobody calls me francis

 

[Jayrok]

There are books written on the subject of how many, many, MANY practices Roman Catholics engage in mirror what pagans were doing before Christianity.

Would it make a difference if the pagan practices included events such as the eucharist, baptism, resurrection of the dead, people ascending to heaven, and virgin births? Or are those only unique to Christianity?

 

[Politician Spock]

There are books written on the subject of how many, many, MANY practices Roman Catholics engage in mirror what pagans were doing before Christianity.

Would it make a difference if the pagan practices included events such as the eucharist, baptism, resurrection of the dead, people ascending to heaven, and virgin births? Or are those only unique to Christianity?

Those are things I'm talking about.

Again, most of it is probably harmless in God's eyes. However, praying to anything other than God is pretty risky in my opinion. I don't see the need to engage in such a risk.

 

[shader]

There are books written on the subject of how many, many, MANY practices Roman Catholics engage in mirror what pagans were doing before Christianity.

Would it make a difference if the pagan practices included events such as the eucharist, baptism, resurrection of the dead, people ascending to heaven, and virgin births? Or are those only unique to Christianity?

We are talking about two separate things. Your personal beliefs that the events in the bible were not true, and were ripped from the pagan playbook is not what we are discussing. The discussion was regarding events that arose after the bible was written, and in time periods in which the Roman Church was trying to make their religion more appealing to the pagan nations, and thus was specifically melding Christian teachings with pagan celebrations and traditions.

 

[timschochet]

There are books written on the subject of how many, many, MANY practices Roman Catholics engage in mirror what pagans were doing before Christianity.

Would it make a difference if the pagan practices included events such as the eucharist, baptism, resurrection of the dead, people ascending to heaven, and virgin births? Or are those only unique to Christianity?

Those are things I'm talking about.Again, most of it is probably harmless in God's eyes. However, praying to anything other than God is pretty risky in my opinion. I don't see the need to engage in such a risk.

This is exactly what religious Jews say about Jesus.

 

[shader]

If God exists, why would He care about how He is worshipped? I mean, you're talking about a guy capable of creating an entire universe and everything in it. Wouldn't this issue be a little petty for Him to be concerned about?

Why do you care if your kids listen to you and turn out well? Why does a Corporation have rules? Why do people show respect for the president? Why does the president wish that the majority of the citizens in his country obey the rules? Why does my employer make me wear ties? Why do the police care if I speed? Why do teachers want the kids in their class to listen and learn?

 

[Politician Spock]

There are books written on the subject of how many, many, MANY practices Roman Catholics engage in mirror what pagans were doing before Christianity.

Would it make a difference if the pagan practices included events such as the eucharist, baptism, resurrection of the dead, people ascending to heaven, and virgin births? Or are those only unique to Christianity?

Those are things I'm talking about.Again, most of it is probably harmless in God's eyes. However, praying to anything other than God is pretty risky in my opinion. I don't see the need to engage in such a risk.

This is exactly what religious Jews say about Jesus.

If I were Jewish, I wouldn't pray to Christ either.

Makes me wonder why Catholics aren't called Maryians or Saintians. You are what you are praying to.

 

[timschochet]

If God exists, why would He care about how He is worshipped? I mean, you're talking about a guy capable of creating an entire universe and everything in it. Wouldn't this issue be a little petty for Him to be concerned about?

Why do you care if your kids listen to you and turn out well? Why does a Corporation have rules? Why do people show respect for the president? Why does the president wish that the majority of the citizens in his country obey the rules? Why does my employer make me wear ties? Why do the police care if I speed? Why do teachers want the kids in their class to listen and learn?

I do care that my kids listen to me. But I don't want them to worship me, especially to the exclusion of all others. I'm often most proud of them when they challenge me.

 

[timschochet]

There are books written on the subject of how many, many, MANY practices Roman Catholics engage in mirror what pagans were doing before Christianity.

Would it make a difference if the pagan practices included events such as the eucharist, baptism, resurrection of the dead, people ascending to heaven, and virgin births? Or are those only unique to Christianity?

Those are things I'm talking about.Again, most of it is probably harmless in God's eyes. However, praying to anything other than God is pretty risky in my opinion. I don't see the need to engage in such a risk.

This is exactly what religious Jews say about Jesus.

If I were Jewish, I wouldn't pray to Christ either.Makes me wonder why Catholics aren't called Maryians or Saintians. You are what you are praying to.

Because they believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ?

 

[shader]

If God exists, why would He care about how He is worshipped? I mean, you're talking about a guy capable of creating an entire universe and everything in it. Wouldn't this issue be a little petty for Him to be concerned about?

Why do you care if your kids listen to you and turn out well? Why does a Corporation have rules? Why do people show respect for the president? Why does the president wish that the majority of the citizens in his country obey the rules? Why does my employer make me wear ties? Why do the police care if I speed? Why do teachers want the kids in their class to listen and learn?

I do care that my kids listen to me. But I don't want them to worship me, especially to the exclusion of all others. I'm often most proud of them when they challenge me.

What if you were the only one? The God of the bible knew there were no other Gods, and knew they were false, and led to degraded practices.

 

[shader]

There are books written on the subject of how many, many, MANY practices Roman Catholics engage in mirror what pagans were doing before Christianity.

Would it make a difference if the pagan practices included events such as the eucharist, baptism, resurrection of the dead, people ascending to heaven, and virgin births? Or are those only unique to Christianity?

Those are things I'm talking about.Again, most of it is probably harmless in God's eyes. However, praying to anything other than God is pretty risky in my opinion. I don't see the need to engage in such a risk.

This is exactly what religious Jews say about Jesus.

If I were Jewish, I wouldn't pray to Christ either.Makes me wonder why Catholics aren't called Maryians or Saintians. You are what you are praying to.

Because they believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ?

Being of a divine nature, doesn't mean you deserve to be prayed to. Angels are of a divine nature. A Christian doesn't pray TO Jesus, he prays to God, in Jesus name.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I cannot believe the chauvinism here. Hey Muhammed was a businessman and tribal leader who invented sht up to take in dollars and kill rivals. Every Protestant sect has some king or prince in history behind it that came up with theological excuses to justify massive land grabs & ad hoc property confiscation not to mention territorial expansion. People really want to go there? Be excellent to one another instead.

 

[timschochet]

If God exists, why would He care about how He is worshipped? I mean, you're talking about a guy capable of creating an entire universe and everything in it. Wouldn't this issue be a little petty for Him to be concerned about?

Why do you care if your kids listen to you and turn out well? Why does a Corporation have rules? Why do people show respect for the president? Why does the president wish that the majority of the citizens in his country obey the rules? Why does my employer make me wear ties? Why do the police care if I speed? Why do teachers want the kids in their class to listen and learn?

I do care that my kids listen to me. But I don't want them to worship me, especially to the exclusion of all others. I'm often most proud of them when they challenge me.

What if you were the only one? The God of the bible knew there were no other Gods, and knew they were false, and led to degraded practices.

If I was the only one, I wouldn't care what my kids thought about it. Just as now, my priority would be that they were healthy, good natured, happy, thinking individuals who tried to live productive lives and do the right thing. Compared to all that, what my kids thought about my own divinity would be pretty low on the list. For it to be first on the list strikes me personally as nonsensical.

 

[Apple Jack]

If God exists, why would He care about how He is worshipped? I mean, you're talking about a guy capable of creating an entire universe and everything in it. Wouldn't this issue be a little petty for Him to be concerned about?

Why do you care if your kids listen to you and turn out well? Why does a Corporation have rules? Why do people show respect for the president? Why does the president wish that the majority of the citizens in his country obey the rules? Why does my employer make me wear ties? Why do the police care if I speed? Why do teachers want the kids in their class to listen and learn?

What do any of those things have to do with worshipping something?

 

[Flying V]

Could any of you Catholic scholars fill me in on why priests do that sing-songy voice? It's like they can't decide whether they want to say it or sing it so it ends up coming out like a hybrid of both.

My theory:

The mass used to be said in Latin, and since the priest was the only person present who knew what he was saying, the only way the congregation knew when to throw in an "Amen" was to wait until the priest paused. Unfortunately, the priest would sometimes pause because he had a dry throat or was trying to hold back a fart, and the Amens would come at the wrong time. If they sang everything, the mass would be even longer, so the priests went with the sing songy voice so people could better judge when to respond.

 

[Psychopav]

There are books written on the subject of how many, many, MANY practices Roman Catholics engage in mirror what pagans were doing before Christianity.

Would it make a difference if the pagan practices included events such as the eucharist, baptism, resurrection of the dead, people ascending to heaven, and virgin births? Or are those only unique to Christianity?

Those are things I'm talking about.Again, most of it is probably harmless in God's eyes. However, praying to anything other than God is pretty risky in my opinion. I don't see the need to engage in such a risk.

This is exactly what religious Jews say about Jesus.

If I were Jewish, I wouldn't pray to Christ either.Makes me wonder why Catholics aren't called Maryians or Saintians. You are what you are praying to.

Because they believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ?

Being of a divine nature, doesn't mean you deserve to be prayed to. Angels are of a divine nature. A Christian doesn't pray TO Jesus, he prays to God, in Jesus name.

THIS IS DANGEROUSLY INCORRECT.

 

[shader]

If God exists, why would He care about how He is worshipped? I mean, you're talking about a guy capable of creating an entire universe and everything in it. Wouldn't this issue be a little petty for Him to be concerned about?

Why do you care if your kids listen to you and turn out well? Why does a Corporation have rules? Why do people show respect for the president? Why does the president wish that the majority of the citizens in his country obey the rules? Why does my employer make me wear ties? Why do the police care if I speed? Why do teachers want the kids in their class to listen and learn?

I do care that my kids listen to me. But I don't want them to worship me, especially to the exclusion of all others. I'm often most proud of them when they challenge me.

What if you were the only one? The God of the bible knew there were no other Gods, and knew they were false, and led to degraded practices.

If I was the only one, I wouldn't care what my kids thought about it. Just as now, my priority would be that they were healthy, good natured, happy, thinking individuals who tried to live productive lives and do the right thing. Compared to all that, what my kids thought about my own divinity would be pretty low on the list. For it to be first on the list strikes me personally as nonsensical.

Well Tim, a discussion on what you would do if you were the creator of the universe is only productive for a short time. There are many of us who do worship God, and we are incredibly appreciative of all that has been provided for us. But, when you look at the strange way that MOST of humanity has worshipped their deities and the warfare and bloodshed that has resulted, I can see some of the reasons that many don't like the idea of worship.

 

[shader]

There are books written on the subject of how many, many, MANY practices Roman Catholics engage in mirror what pagans were doing before Christianity.

Would it make a difference if the pagan practices included events such as the eucharist, baptism, resurrection of the dead, people ascending to heaven, and virgin births? Or are those only unique to Christianity?

Those are things I'm talking about.Again, most of it is probably harmless in God's eyes. However, praying to anything other than God is pretty risky in my opinion. I don't see the need to engage in such a risk.

This is exactly what religious Jews say about Jesus.

If I were Jewish, I wouldn't pray to Christ either.Makes me wonder why Catholics aren't called Maryians or Saintians. You are what you are praying to.

Because they believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ?

Being of a divine nature, doesn't mean you deserve to be prayed to. Angels are of a divine nature. A Christian doesn't pray TO Jesus, he prays to God, in Jesus name.

THIS IS DANGEROUSLY INCORRECT.

At least Jesus agrees with me. I'll settle for that over Catholic tradition.

 

[DiStefano]

The Ulster Prods knew how to deal with Papists! We need some good Orange drinking songs in this thread.

that's not funny.

Lighten up, Francis of Assisi.

Exchange "Ulster Prods" for Germans, and "Papists" for Jews, and "Orange" for Germans, would you find it as uproariously funny?

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

There are books written on the subject of how many, many, MANY practices Roman Catholics engage in mirror what pagans were doing before Christianity.

Would it make a difference if the pagan practices included events such as the eucharist, baptism, resurrection of the dead, people ascending to heaven, and virgin births? Or are those only unique to Christianity?

Those are things I'm talking about.Again, most of it is probably harmless in God's eyes. However, praying to anything other than God is pretty risky in my opinion. I don't see the need to engage in such a risk.

This is exactly what religious Jews say about Jesus.

If I were Jewish, I wouldn't pray to Christ either.Makes me wonder why Catholics aren't called Maryians or Saintians. You are what you are praying to.

Because they believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ?

Being of a divine nature, doesn't mean you deserve to be prayed to. Angels are of a divine nature. A Christian doesn't pray TO Jesus, he prays to God, in Jesus name.

THIS IS DANGEROUSLY INCORRECT.

 

[timschochet]

The Ulster Prods knew how to deal with Papists! We need some good Orange drinking songs in this thread.

that's not funny.

Lighten up, Francis of Assisi.

Exchange "Ulster Prods" for Germans, and "Papists" for Jews, and "Orange" for Germans, would you find it as uproariously funny?

I didn't find it to be uproariously funny in the first place, just a little amusing. And your analogy sucks.

 

[DiStefano]

The Ulster Prods knew how to deal with Papists! We need some good Orange drinking songs in this thread.

that's not funny.

Lighten up, Francis of Assisi.

Exchange "Ulster Prods" for Germans, and "Papists" for Jews, and "Orange" for Germans, would you find it as uproariously funny?

I didn't find it to be uproariously funny in the first place, just a little amusing. And your analogy sucks.

I didn't think you'd like it.

 

[Lutherman2112]

The Ulster Prods knew how to deal with Papists! We need some good Orange drinking songs in this thread.

that's not funny.

Lighten up, Francis of Assisi.

He was right. Not funny and bad form.

 

[Jayrok]

There are books written on the subject of how many, many, MANY practices Roman Catholics engage in mirror what pagans were doing before Christianity.

Would it make a difference if the pagan practices included events such as the eucharist, baptism, resurrection of the dead, people ascending to heaven, and virgin births? Or are those only unique to Christianity?

We are talking about two separate things. Your personal beliefs that the events in the bible were not true, and were ripped from the pagan playbook is not what we are discussing. The discussion was regarding events that arose after the bible was written, and in time periods in which the Roman Church was trying to make their religion more appealing to the pagan nations, and thus was specifically melding Christian teachings with pagan celebrations and traditions.

Oh. It reminded me of early Christian apologists, such as Justin Martyr, who appealed to the emporer to ease up on persecution by comparing Jesus and things that he did with various pagan gods who did essentially the same thing. That is, he wrote that some of the things Jesus did were no different than the things Greek gods did, as well as other people in antiquity. His purpose was to appeal to the emperor that no one was persecuting the Greeks for worshipping their gods, so why should it be legal to persecute Christians for worshipping Jesus. His discourse could also serve as to be more appealing to pagan nations.

By the way, I do not believe the events in the Bible were ripped from some pagan playbook. I believe the majority of the events in the NT are clearly taken from the Hebrew OT, through the use of midrash. Events and practices are different things in this context. But some practices, such as the eucharist, were borrowed from previous pagan rituals. Evidence of this comes from writings in the second century.