CBO says Minimum Wage hike will cost around 500,000 jobs (1 Viewer)

[timschochet]

A few thoughts:

As I understand it, in real dollars the minimum wage is well below what it had been, historically, correct?

From a philosophical view and keeping political ideology out of it, would we be better off with losing some low paying jobs to gain a workforce whereby people working full time still can't make enough to support themselves? Wouldn't that be a fiscal win overall with less need to govt services (not to mention substandard living , lack of healthy food etc) to support a huge part of our workforce that's actually working?

The libertarian in me says let the free market set wages. But the realist and businessman in me sees that the current system likely costs our nation more ( in dollars and social impact which then leads to even more dollars) that setting a more reasonable standard for the lowest allowable wage.

In some ways this reminds me of the old adage that we are all whores, the rest is just negotiating the price. For those against a raise, why not lower the minimum wage or eliminate it? If we pay people 3 or 5 bucks an hour can't we create more jobs and better compete with the sweat shops and factories in bangledesh?

So, assuming most people don't want that then we agree to have a min wage, and the only discussion is what is the fair rate. It would then seem that our current rate is too low to sustain individuals and certainly families and that's a losing economic proposition when looking at this in full context.

I would be in favor of eliminating the minimum wage. I don't think it would result in Bangladesh type sweat shops.

Oh Tim, so obtuse. If you get rid of the minimum wage it would definitely lead to that. You think that the titans of industry won't get together and reduce everyone's pay across the board? There is already price fixing in all of the different economies/industries, do you think the same won't apply to wages? Do you know why we have weekends Tim? Because of Unions. Do you know why we have Unions? Because the titans of industry forced people to band together to combat the very thing you say won't happen but has happened in the past. You people are coming at this like we still live in a free market.

Or they could REALLY save money by simply refusing to pay altogether.

 

[NCCommish]

Suppose we eliminated minimum wage tomorrow? What would happen? Would the results be dire, as NC and others predict, with basic wages falling to Bangladesh levels?

Wages correspond pretty well with worker productivity, which corresponds pretty well with capital investment. (A worker using an expensive, fancy machine to make linens can make many more than a worker doing everything by hand.)

The U.S. will continue to have much higher wages than Bangladesh, given that our capital investment is many times greater.

This hasn't proven to be very true. US productivity is at all time highs, Wages not so much.

 

[NCCommish]

We made these laws for a reason Tim and people haven't changed that much since we did.

I don't really like this argument in any context, since many laws are made for the reason of benefiting special interests. We made online poker illegal for a reason, etc.

But in this context it's especially bad, considering the minimum wage law's racist origins.

I want blacks to make the same as whites so they aren't used as pawns to undermine wages doesn't seem as much racist as it does pro-worker in a time when one group was paid less.

And I am sure a smart guy like you does realize by pointing out the racial disparities in pay before there was a minimum wage you aren't really helping the eliminate minimum wage argument right?

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I want blacks to make the same as whites so they aren't used as pawns to undermine wages doesn't seem as much racist as it does pro-worker in a time when one group was paid less.

It was pro white worker because it helped price many black workers out of the market, thus eliminating them as competition.

And I am sure a smart guy like you does realize by pointing out the racial disparities in pay before there was a minimum wage you aren't really helping the eliminate minimum wage argument right?

I don't know what this means.

 

[NCCommish]

I want blacks to make the same as whites so they aren't used as pawns to undermine wages doesn't seem as much racist as it does pro-worker in a time when one group was paid less.

It was pro white worker because it helped price many black workers out of the market, thus eliminating them as competition.

And I am sure a smart guy like you does realize by pointing out the racial disparities in pay before there was a minimum wage you aren't really helping the eliminate minimum wage argument right?

I don't know what this means.

Blacks got paid less for being black. The minimum wage, whatever the motivation, ended that. Ending the federal minimum wage would allow this to happen again.

 

[matttyl]

You guys realize that the price of everything is constantly going up regardless if you raise minimum wage or not. Ok, maybe not VCR's but food, rent, all cost of living expenses keep increasing year after year. You have to at least keep pace with it. You can't have 5 years of cost of goods increase, all while productivity is supposed to be at its highest, things should be cheaper right, and not keep pace with it.

Unless you like revolution.

I'm sorry, but if someone hasn't advanced in their field of employment after 5 years (received a raise, received a promotion, changed jobs to one with higher pay after obtaining experience at the first job) then that's on them.

Time to come down out of your little tower and get on the ground to see some reality.

My tower is pretty big, cause I worked my ### off and earned it.

Get a job. Show up on time each and every day. Don't go to work drunk or stoned. Work an honest day's work. Take pride in your tasks, and complete them to the best of your ability. If after 5 years of doing that you haven't been given a raise, promotion, or found a better paying job on your own accord, then you can complain. If you haven't done those things, and after 5 years you're in the same spot you were when you started, sorry, but that's on you.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Blacks got paid less for being black. The minimum wage, whatever the motivation, ended that.

It did? I think becoming unemployed should count as being paid less.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

You guys realize that the price of everything is constantly going up regardless if you raise minimum wage or not. Ok, maybe not VCR's but food, rent, all cost of living expenses keep increasing year after year. You have to at least keep pace with it. You can't have 5 years of cost of goods increase, all while productivity is supposed to be at its highest, things should be cheaper right, and not keep pace with it.

Unless you like revolution.

I'm sorry, but if someone hasn't advanced in their field of employment after 5 years (received a raise, received a promotion, changed jobs to one with higher pay after obtaining experience at the first job) then that's on them.

Time to come down out of your little tower and get on the ground to see some reality.

My tower is pretty big, cause I worked my ### off and earned it.

Get a job. Show up on time each and every day. Don't go to work drunk or stoned. Work an honest day's work. Take pride in your tasks, and complete them to the best of your ability. If after 5 years of doing that you haven't been given a raise, promotion, or found a better paying job on your own accord, then you can complain. If you haven't done those things, and after 5 years you're in the same spot you were when you started, sorry, but that's on you.

You are also probably more lucky than you realize or are wanting to admit. The nature of competition is such that as you move further up the career ladder there fewer people in vying for fewer positions. By definition that puts the majority of workers closer to the bottom, and they aren't just competing for advancement with their peers but against younger, less expensive, workers coming in behind them. I've run large operations both here in the states and overseas. From my observations the majority of people doing what your describing simply won't get ahead because they lack the tools to do so, even people who stand out against less motivated peers.

Work ethic is a great thing, but even the strongest work ethic is only going to differentiate you against peers with the same skill level and competency. It's unlikely to carry you farther than your tools and skill allow, and if it does you are probably in trouble. I've seen many people promoted to positions they are ill equipped to handle based on desire and having a good work ethic and it usually doesn't work out.

 

[Dr. Gobbler]

A few thoughts:

As I understand it, in real dollars the minimum wage is well below what it had been, historically, correct?

From a philosophical view and keeping political ideology out of it, would we be better off with losing some low paying jobs to gain a workforce whereby people working full time still can't make enough to support themselves? Wouldn't that be a fiscal win overall with less need to govt services (not to mention substandard living , lack of healthy food etc) to support a huge part of our workforce that's actually working?

The libertarian in me says let the free market set wages. But the realist and businessman in me sees that the current system likely costs our nation more ( in dollars and social impact which then leads to even more dollars) that setting a more reasonable standard for the lowest allowable wage.

In some ways this reminds me of the old adage that we are all whores, the rest is just negotiating the price. For those against a raise, why not lower the minimum wage or eliminate it? If we pay people 3 or 5 bucks an hour can't we create more jobs and better compete with the sweat shops and factories in bangledesh?

So, assuming most people don't want that then we agree to have a min wage, and the only discussion is what is the fair rate. It would then seem that our current rate is too low to sustain individuals and certainly families and that's a losing economic proposition when looking at this in full context.

I would be in favor of eliminating the minimum wage. I don't think it would result in Bangladesh type sweat shops.

Oh Tim, so obtuse. If you get rid of the minimum wage it would definitely lead to that. You think that the titans of industry won't get together and reduce everyone's pay across the board? There is already price fixing in all of the different economies/industries, do you think the same won't apply to wages? Do you know why we have weekends Tim? Because of Unions. Do you know why we have Unions? Because the titans of industry forced people to band together to combat the very thing you say won't happen but has happened in the past. You people are coming at this like we still live in a free market.

Or they could REALLY save money by simply refusing to pay altogether.

Don't be a hypocrite Tim. Waa, pay me my money. Waa, pay me my money and do the right thing. But don't pay those people over there. Don't do the right thing and pay them, pay me instead.And this folks, is where we are at as a Nation.

 

[matttyl]

You guys realize that the price of everything is constantly going up regardless if you raise minimum wage or not. Ok, maybe not VCR's but food, rent, all cost of living expenses keep increasing year after year. You have to at least keep pace with it. You can't have 5 years of cost of goods increase, all while productivity is supposed to be at its highest, things should be cheaper right, and not keep pace with it.

Unless you like revolution.

I'm sorry, but if someone hasn't advanced in their field of employment after 5 years (received a raise, received a promotion, changed jobs to one with higher pay after obtaining experience at the first job) then that's on them.

Time to come down out of your little tower and get on the ground to see some reality.

My tower is pretty big, cause I worked my ### off and earned it.

Get a job. Show up on time each and every day. Don't go to work drunk or stoned. Work an honest day's work. Take pride in your tasks, and complete them to the best of your ability. If after 5 years of doing that you haven't been given a raise, promotion, or found a better paying job on your own accord, then you can complain. If you haven't done those things, and after 5 years you're in the same spot you were when you started, sorry, but that's on you.

You are also probably more lucky than you realize or are wanting to admit. The nature of competition is such that as you move further up the career ladder there fewer people in vying for fewer positions. By definition that puts the majority of workers closer to the bottom, and they aren't just competing for advancement with their peers but against younger, less expensive, workers coming in behind them. I've run large operations both here in the states and overseas. From my observations the majority of people doing what your describing simply won't get ahead because they lack the tools to do so, even people who stand out against less motivated peers.

Work ethic is a great thing, but even the strongest work ethic is only going to differentiate you against peers with the same skill level and competency. It's unlikely to carry you farther than your tools and skill allow, and if it does you are probably in trouble. I've seen many people promoted to positions they are ill equipped to handle based on desire and having a good work ethic and it usually doesn't work out.

I'd readily admit I've been extremely lucky. Extremely. That said I've also worked very hard and made what I feel are smart decisions. No kids I couldn't afford. Never used drugs, never smoked, don't drink much. I've had my health, though I've never gone a day without insurance. My first car was $1,900. It wasn't until my 5th car (only a few years ago) that I felt comfortable enough to spend over $10k for a car. I got a bachelors degree on the wall behind me now after summers at community college and transferring credits from my high school. My wife paid for her own college education, and we are still doing so to this day (and will be for the next 7-8 years). We both are very lucky to have full time jobs, and we both work very hard at them. My job doesn't have a "minimum wage" as I'm 100% commission in my sales job. If I don't sell, I don't earn. I've gone months earning less than $1k at a time, always with a personal "safety net". Again, I've been very lucky that certain things have gone my way, but I also feel that you in large part make your own luck. To me, it's called it the "Pursuit of happiness", as Mr. Jefferson once put it.

 

[Brony]

The waitresses at Buffalo Wild Wings used to be hot and at one point they had a better beer selection than most other joints, but now I can get better wings and beer elsewhere, so I only go here when there aren't better options.

 

[avoiding injuries]

A few thoughts:

As I understand it, in real dollars the minimum wage is well below what it had been, historically, correct?

From a philosophical view and keeping political ideology out of it, would we be better off with losing some low paying jobs to gain a workforce whereby people working full time still can't make enough to support themselves? Wouldn't that be a fiscal win overall with less need to govt services (not to mention substandard living , lack of healthy food etc) to support a huge part of our workforce that's actually working?

The libertarian in me says let the free market set wages. But the realist and businessman in me sees that the current system likely costs our nation more ( in dollars and social impact which then leads to even more dollars) that setting a more reasonable standard for the lowest allowable wage.

In some ways this reminds me of the old adage that we are all whores, the rest is just negotiating the price. For those against a raise, why not lower the minimum wage or eliminate it? If we pay people 3 or 5 bucks an hour can't we create more jobs and better compete with the sweat shops and factories in bangledesh?

So, assuming most people don't want that then we agree to have a min wage, and the only discussion is what is the fair rate. It would then seem that our current rate is too low to sustain individuals and certainly families and that's a losing economic proposition when looking at this in full context.

I would be in favor of eliminating the minimum wage. I don't think it would result in Bangladesh type sweat shops.

Oh Tim, so obtuse. If you get rid of the minimum wage it would definitely lead to that. You think that the titans of industry won't get together and reduce everyone's pay across the board? There is already price fixing in all of the different economies/industries, do you think the same won't apply to wages? Do you know why we have weekends Tim? Because of Unions. Do you know why we have Unions? Because the titans of industry forced people to band together to combat the very thing you say won't happen but has happened in the past. You people are coming at this like we still live in a free market.

Or they could REALLY save money by simply refusing to pay altogether.

Don't be a hypocrite Tim. Waa, pay me my money. Waa, pay me my money and do the right thing. But don't pay those people over there. Don't do the right thing and pay them, pay me instead.And this folks, is where we are at as a Nation.

Wtf

 

[timschochet]

A few thoughts:

As I understand it, in real dollars the minimum wage is well below what it had been, historically, correct?

From a philosophical view and keeping political ideology out of it, would we be better off with losing some low paying jobs to gain a workforce whereby people working full time still can't make enough to support themselves? Wouldn't that be a fiscal win overall with less need to govt services (not to mention substandard living , lack of healthy food etc) to support a huge part of our workforce that's actually working?

The libertarian in me says let the free market set wages. But the realist and businessman in me sees that the current system likely costs our nation more ( in dollars and social impact which then leads to even more dollars) that setting a more reasonable standard for the lowest allowable wage.

In some ways this reminds me of the old adage that we are all whores, the rest is just negotiating the price. For those against a raise, why not lower the minimum wage or eliminate it? If we pay people 3 or 5 bucks an hour can't we create more jobs and better compete with the sweat shops and factories in bangledesh?

So, assuming most people don't want that then we agree to have a min wage, and the only discussion is what is the fair rate. It would then seem that our current rate is too low to sustain individuals and certainly families and that's a losing economic proposition when looking at this in full context.

I would be in favor of eliminating the minimum wage. I don't think it would result in Bangladesh type sweat shops.

Oh Tim, so obtuse. If you get rid of the minimum wage it would definitely lead to that. You think that the titans of industry won't get together and reduce everyone's pay across the board? There is already price fixing in all of the different economies/industries, do you think the same won't apply to wages? Do you know why we have weekends Tim? Because of Unions. Do you know why we have Unions? Because the titans of industry forced people to band together to combat the very thing you say won't happen but has happened in the past. You people are coming at this like we still live in a free market.

Or they could REALLY save money by simply refusing to pay altogether.

Don't be a hypocrite Tim. Waa, pay me my money. Waa, pay me my money and do the right thing. But don't pay those people over there. Don't do the right thing and pay them, pay me instead.And this folks, is where we are at as a Nation.

I think you should at least put the money you owe me to good use. Buy a good book on remedial logic, and after you have absorbed it, buy another one on ethics. And please don't post again until you've read them both several times.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

At present I would actually favor the elimination of the minimum wage, coupled with a Basic Income Guarantee as a better way to deal with lower income poverty/quality of life.

Singing to the choir...

 

[Dr Oadi]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/mar/12/cbo-chief-projected-job-loss-minimum-wage-fluid/

The initial estimate came out in February, but yesterday the CBO chief reiterated that the 500,000 number was somewhere "in the middle"- it could be lower or higher.

Why are we doing this again? I know that Obama and the Democrats want to raise people out of poverty, which is a noble idea, but these proposals never seem to work. And the cost for this one is too high, IMO.

CBO. Bunch of rich white guys batting paid boooyooouuuyyyaaaaa to make predictions. Please ##### I'm dreaming of makin ten ten mother####er but yo middle class ### don't sweat me much. I'm the mofo you buy'n yo illegal script ions off of. Yo it's like Portland. And legal Mary Jane. Rich an getting richer. Poor an is still getting sent to jail.

Yeah middle class white boy. Raise your mother ####### hands like you just don't care.

Cause in yo 50 k a year job what do you have to care slash that fight for slash that survive for.......?

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

What do you think about the counterargument that it's psychologically healthier for people to believe that they've earned the entirety of their income, rather than believing that they've received a handout from the government? Might a minimum wage be better than a Basic Income Guarantee in at least that one respect?

While the details vary a bit depending on the actual proposal being put out, one of the basics of a BIG is that the guaranteed income goes to everyone, not just the poor. So the "psychological" factor of everyone sharing in this distribution isn't going to be the same as welfare check. (Even if the paying for this is a bit less equal.)

 

[djmich]

Blacks got paid less for being black. The minimum wage, whatever the motivation, ended that.

It did? I think becoming unemployed should count as being paid less.

 

[timschochet]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/mar/12/cbo-chief-projected-job-loss-minimum-wage-fluid/

The initial estimate came out in February, but yesterday the CBO chief reiterated that the 500,000 number was somewhere "in the middle"- it could be lower or higher.

Why are we doing this again? I know that Obama and the Democrats want to raise people out of poverty, which is a noble idea, but these proposals never seem to work. And the cost for this one is too high, IMO.

CBO. Bunch of rich white guys batting paid boooyooouuuyyyaaaaa to make predictions. Please ##### I'm dreaming of makin ten ten mother####er but yo middle class ### don't sweat me much. I'm the mofo you buy'n yo illegal script ions off of.Yo it's like Portland. And legal Mary Jane. Rich an getting richer. Poor an is still getting sent to jail.

Yeah middle class white boy. Raise your mother ####### hands like you just don't care.

Cause in yo 50 k a year job what do you have to care slash that fight for slash that survive for.......?

 

[Koya]

Some verifiable crazy goin' on in here.

Keep it goin'

 

[Johnny Rock]

You guys realize that the price of everything is constantly going up

If you can't pay the debt, don't make the bet.

What if the debt is for basic food, shelter and clothing? Including for children?

What if regardless of intention there is an increase in not only need for public assistance but also crime and a decrease in overall quality of life without a fair min wage? You ok making that bet?

Koya,My post and the one above it quoting Dr. Gobbler are related to Dr. Gobbler welching on a well-documented cash bet with Tim some time ago. Dr. Gobbler still hasn't paid and it still irks some of us around here, even though we're not the ones who he screwed over.

 

[Snotbubbles]

If jobs aren't lost and prices won't go up, why stop at $10?

Everyone makes 150k a year!

Now you're talking! That's well on the way to being a "living wage". But there is still inequality; so raise your sights a little bit. Everyone gets a yacht and a Porsche, and a vacation home. For that, let's bump it up to 250k. Think of all the extra consumer spending!

#### that! Let's make it 500k a year!

Just move to Japan, you could be a millionaire.

 

[Rush Limbaugh Fan]

If people would just stop being poor this wouldn't be a problem.

 

[DiStefano]

Well, as soon as we can get taxes up to 100% to feed the needs of the government, then it will cease to be a problem. We will all be equal.

But some will be more equal than others.

 

[Koya]

You guys realize that the price of everything is constantly going up

If you can't pay the debt, don't make the bet.

What if the debt is for basic food, shelter and clothing? Including for children?

What if regardless of intention there is an increase in not only need for public assistance but also crime and a decrease in overall quality of life without a fair min wage? You ok making that bet?

Koya,My post and the one above it quoting Dr. Gobbler are related to Dr. Gobbler welching on a well-documented cash bet with Tim some time ago. Dr. Gobbler still hasn't paid and it still irks some of us around here, even though we're not the ones who he screwed over.

Yeah, I hadn't notices it with DrG until after, but by then the train left the station and eventually had many tequila shots, so I just let it go.

Thanks, though.

 

[moleculo]

bump

 

[Instinctive]

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

I assume Seattle is a wasteland and jobless hordes walk the streets at high noon these days?