Challenges Of A Forum With A Business (1 Viewer)

[Pip's Invitation]

(RIP the Huddle forums)

A few days ago I was bored and bounced over there for the first time in probably about a year. Damn, there's like nothing there anymore. 

 

[skol asylum]

A few days ago I was bored and bounced over there for the first time in probably about a year. Damn, there's like nothing there anymore. 

Yep, it's been many years now but the long time posters were either banned or left in protest over heavy handed moderation. It was nowhere near the size of FBG at its height, but a cautionary tale just the same. A shame because DMD is a great guy and much of it had to do with WW who I guess isn't even part of that operation anymore. Anyways, feels like too much airing of dirty laundry so to speak. One of the reasons I get concerned about a repeat here though. #PTSD

 

[E Street Brat]

Warning issued by FBG Moderator

January 12

Penalty

Given 1 points which will never expire.

Restricted from posting - 1 month and 3 days

Banned - 1 month and 3 days

Note for member

Attempted Nazi joke. Please don't do that.

Lets review, shall we?

The set-up:  Tim started a thread about Nazi Analogies.

I posted: "I did nazi that coming."  Because its Tim.  Starting a thread.  About Nazi analogies.   EVERYONE saw that thread coming.

Then the snarky "attempted Nazi joke" and 33 days in the hole.  Setting aside the snarky response from the Mod - it was not an "attempted" joke - several people, in fact, laughed before it was deleted.

First - its not a "Nazi joke".  It does not make fun of Nazis.  It does not make light of Nazis.  It does not glorify Nazis.  Its not even about Nazis.  Its a pun / play on words, because you might not have noticed, but "nazi" and "not see" are homonyms - words that sound the same, but have different meanings.  It was appropriate in a thread about nazi analogies.  So, right off the bat, the suspension is based a dubious basis - it was never a "nazi joke", attempted, or otherwise.

Second - there are actual nazi/hitler jokes in the thread.  Those actual (or attempted, if you prefer) jokes went unpunished.  But the pun - that gets 33 days.  Something seems a little off with that picture.

Third - in that same thread, there were two links to a 50+ page thread in these forums with NOTHING BUT NAZI JOKES.  Again - nothing wrong with 50 pages of actual nazi jokes, but a pun, gets 33 days.

Fourth - the actual pun "I did nazi that coming" - has been used on at least two other occasion under similar circumstances on these boards.  It could be more, but the search function is, shall we say, lacking.

So, needless to say, when I saw that suspension - I did n-o-t s-e-e that coming.  The irony was through the roof!

There would have been nothing in the history of these boards to make anyone think "I did nazi that coming!" was over some imaginary line, let alone be worthy of a 33 day suspension.  It did not poke fun at anyone.  It did not call anyone a bad name.  It did not do anything - other than make a few people laugh harmlessly.

SO I ask, where are these "suspensions are a few hours or a day or two?" 

Wow, I did not see that coming. 

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Regarding the OP...It's 2021. 

Everyone should know by now that using sexual orientation as the basis for attempted humor is a no-go.

Police yourself or be policed.

 

[Aloof]

Just ban jokes.  Then when that doesn't work, you can ban the next thing you look down on.  Don't give up, don't ever give up.

 

[Joe Bryant]

SO I ask, where are these "suspensions are a few hours or a day or two?" 

A Nazi joke will almost always get a long suspension. I've told the moderators we don't want that here. 

To answer your question of "where are these suspensions are a few hours or a day or two?", they are right here on the site. Suspensions are not visible to everyone. A poster this morning suspended for a day after a post was reported.  

 

[Joe Bryant]

That's understandable, Joe, but to be honest, it would probably go a longer way if you responded to people even with some sort of canned response that policy dictates not changing your mind. It's tantamount to applying for a job and you get "ghosted". People would be much more content getting even an automated negative response than none at all.

You're probably right and I probably should do that. Many of them though are more ranting and ripping me for whatever the moderator has done and I normally just don't have the energy to engage as when I did this in the past, even a nice reply just creates another email as they want to argue about it. It's not at all like a job interview situation. But I hear you. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

These forums are advertisements for FBG subscriptions.

To be fair, I don't think this is accurate.

We talk some in the Shark Pool about content that is available to subscribers but the vast majority of the forum is just a community we've tried to create. 

 

[pantherclub]

Why even mod at all?   Seems pretty lame especially since we are mostly anonymous and there is a ignore button.   Why even bother with it?   I get the whole kumbaya vision you are trying to get to here but come on man this is mostly a male dominated football board at its core.  The whole "be nice" thing just reeks.  

 

[DocHolliday]

At the end of the day, it’s Joes business and he should run it how he wants.   If his customers don’t like it, they can go somewhere else.   I don’t really see the point of the thread.  Seems like it’s going to continue to open old wounds about suspensions.  

I do miss some of the posters that really had this place rolling 5+ years ago.    

 

[Sinn Fein]

A Nazi joke will almost always get a long suspension. I've told the moderators we don't want that here. 

Simply not true. 
 

It wasn’t a nazi joke, actual nazi/hitler jokes were ignored in the same thread. A 50+ page of actual nazi jokes still exists on this board. 
 

You don’t have to justify your rules to anyone. But, at least be intellectually honest about it.  

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Why even mod at all?   Seems pretty lame especially since we are mostly anonymous and there is a ignore button.   Why even bother with it?   I get the whole kumbaya vision you are trying to get to here but come on man this is mostly a male dominated football board at its core.  The whole "be nice" thing just reeks.  

I completely disagree with this take.  I’ve seen what passes for discourse on unmoderated sites.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Simply not true. 
 

It wasn’t a nazi joke, actual nazi/hitler jokes were ignored in the same thread. A 50+ page of actual nazi jokes still exists on this board. 
 

You don’t have to justify your rules to anyone. But, at least be intellectually honest about it.  

Sorry but we'll just have to disagree. A Nazi joke will almost always get a long suspension. I've told the moderators we don't want that here. That's true and intellectually honest. I'm sorry you seem to disagree. 

I also need to get back to work. Thank you to all the folks for letting me whine and process some. 

It's helpful to hear feedback even if I don't agree with all of it. 

I hear what folks are saying about asking suspensions be shorter and I'll pass that along to the moderators. And I do think it's worth noting that this is already happening. 

Thank you folks for being part of the forums.

 

[pantherclub]

I completely disagree with this take.  I’ve seen what passes for discourse on unmoderated sites.

I've seen how over moderation destroys a once great board

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

I've seen how over moderation destroys a once great board

Right, there’s a balance.  Too much moderation or too little moderation can both be problematic.

 

[bostonfred]

Why even mod at all?   Seems pretty lame especially since we are mostly anonymous and there is a ignore button.   Why even bother with it?   I get the whole kumbaya vision you are trying to get to here but come on man this is mostly a male dominated football board at its core.  The whole "be nice" thing just reeks.  

Moderated forums are generally work safe and some of us appreciate that. 

But also, the site owner puts his name and face on the site for everyone to see including his wife, his family, his pastor and friends and people he does business with. So do a lot of other people including people who aren't involved in the business.  

What reeks to me is people who complain about the free service they're receiving in the same thread where he openly talks about how he's frustrated that he's taking a bath on hosting the forums but still does it for free. This seems like a really ungrateful and entitled post to be honest.  

 

[Bob Sacamano]

I completely disagree with this take.  I’ve seen what passes for discourse on unmoderated sites.

Agreed. And I'm pretty sure I'm considered a serial offender here and will eventually be outright banned. But unmoderated would not be better. 

 

[Gilroy34]

Simply not true. 
 

Careful, the above statement got someone banned for 3 months.

 

[identikit]

Sorry but we'll just have to disagree. A Nazi joke will almost always get a long suspension. I've told the moderators we don't want that here. That's true and intellectually honest. I'm sorry you seem to disagree. 

I also need to get back to work. Thank you to all the folks for letting me whine and process some. 

It's helpful to hear feedback even if I don't agree with all of it. 

I hear what folks are saying about asking suspensions be shorter and I'll pass that along to the moderators. And I do think it's worth noting that this is already happening. 

Thank you folks for being part of the forums.

I guess I wonder how Nazi threads are even allowed, based on what you're posting about it.

 

[Todd from Utah]

Maybe this comes across as whining. If so....oh well.

I'm the poster that wrote the email. Obviously this is my alias.  If this post "exposing" that (not that it would be hard to figure out) results in this username being TO'd as well, so be it. See ya'll in a month.

IMO, using my email as an example (while not giving me the courtesy of a direct response first.....or at all) is pretty disrespectful.  You also left out the first part of the email, which I think is relevant to the conversation.

Hi Joe

 I've been a member on the site for nearly 20 years, and a subscriber for most of those.  While I've had a couple of dust ups and 1 or 2 brief time outs over the years (usually for a joke that went a little too far) I feel like I've been a positive contributor to the community a vast majority of the time.  (and met some good IFriends there as a result)

I received a 2+ month ban during the aftermath of the January 6th attack on the Capitol for calling President Trump a "garbage human being".  The context of my post was that even though I felt that way.....I hoped that his young son would still receive Secret Service protection even if he was removed from office (as I imagine he'll have to deal with a lot of idiots the rest of life just based on the actions of his father)   While I thought the length of the ban was excessive (as I had no history of causing problems in the PSF) I accepted that my language was probably in poor taste. 

In no way was I attempting to "big time" you with a "do you know who I am???" mentality. Not sure why you took it that way. I was merely trying to provide some context for my frustration.

My frustration is not with the "change" we've seen in the forums.(in terms of what is and isn't allowed) It wasn't even with the suspensions themselves (The PSF is volatile, so my language wasn't great. My Kuzma joke the other day could certainly be considered offensive to some...at the very least, the individual who felt the need to report me). 

My frustration was that....by simply banning posters without any sort of warning or explanation (not that I couldn't figure out why I was banned) you're essentially saying that...in your mind.....our years of supporting your business and helping you build this community (which, whether you accept it or not.....helps drive your business) dont even justify spending 30 seconds to send a PM saying "hey, that's not appropriate. Please knock it off".

I think there's a difference between expecting "special treatment" and hoping for a little leeway when you make a small mistake at a business that you've patronized for DECADES.

I know not to expect that now. I'll adjust my behavior accordingly (regardless of what name I post under) and as I said....I'll be voting with my wallet. My business clearly isn't valued, so I'll respectfully take it elsewhere.

TLEF

 

[Cold Dead Hands]

As a point of reference this is my second account that I created when my first got an 18 month ban for basically doing the verbal equivalent of snapping a towel in the locker room. That ban occurred over ten years ago. 
 

It is far less fun here now than it was then.

 

[dgreen]

I've seen how over moderation destroys a once great board

Are you talking about this place? If so, why are you still here?

 

[eoMMan]

Buffalo actually being good isn’t the only benefit to being a Bills fan...

I believe it. Probably best not to be rude in the forums either.

 

[Gilroy34]

As a point of reference this is my second account that I created when my first got an 18 month ban for basically doing the verbal equivalent of snapping a towel in the locker room. That ban occurred over ten years ago. 
 

It is far less fun here now than it was then.

Alias accounts are way cooler nowadays anyhow.

 

[skol asylum]

At the end of the day, it’s Joes business and he should run it how he wants.   If his customers don’t like it, they can go somewhere else.   I don’t really see the point of the thread.  Seems like it’s going to continue to open old wounds about suspensions.  

I do miss some of the posters that really had this place rolling 5+ years ago.    

Maybe the OP should get 30 days for stirring the pot?

 

[pantherclub]

Are you talking about this place? If so, why are you still here?

I post a miniscule amount compared to what I used to.  I've been banned for nothing 2x now so it's not even worth getting into it.  I like reading the shark board during draft time but that's about it.  This board has been strangled with over moderation in Joe's attempt to get woke.   I mean damn he killed the yoga pants thread because he thought it was an insult to women.   I get its his board but if he doesn't see how he is killing it slowly then I don't know what to say.  

Again he banned me, a poster over 15 years, for 4 months for simply saying it's moronic to think that biden stole the election.  Damn let that sink in.  How the hell is that productive?  

 

[eoMMan]

As a point of reference this is my second account that I created when my first got an 18 month ban for basically doing the verbal equivalent of snapping a towel in the locker room. That ban occurred over ten years ago. 
 

It is far less fun here now than it was then.

Yup.

I petition bringing back McGarnical (sp?), Zartan, Zippy, cocoagirl and of course...Longball Larry.

 

[skol asylum]

To be fair, I don't think this is accurate.

We talk some in the Shark Pool about content that is available to subscribers but the vast majority of the forum is just a community we've tried to create. 

Personally I find a ton of value in the shark pool when it comes to getting a heads up on emerging players, overall thoughts on player trends, some quasi WDIS, etc. It's not paid content BUT it makes me feel even better about paying for the content that is. It absolutely adds value to your product and should be seen as such imo.

 

[skol asylum]

A Nazi joke will almost always get a long suspension. I've told the moderators we don't want that here. 

To answer your question of "where are these suspensions are a few hours or a day or two?", they are right here on the site. Suspensions are not visible to everyone. A poster this morning suspended for a day after a post was reported.  

I hope you read his post closely because it really wasn't a standard nazi joke. It was a harmless pun. Things need context.

 

[pantherclub]

And lastly.  What type of person gets offended on an anonymous message board that they have to report it?

 

[dgreen]

I guess I wonder how Nazi threads are even allowed, based on what you're posting about it.

I think Joe has been very clear that they deal with things that are reported. What's not reported is unlikely to be dealt with. Threads about the discourse here are interesting to me, so I read those threads. So I've seen Joe talk about this dozens of times. I understand others don't read all of these threads, so maybe they aren't familiar with the role the report button plays in what's "allowed".

Of the nearly 50m posts currently in the forums, I bet there's plenty of stuff that they don't want here. But they aren't going to read 50m posts. It's not so much that they allow those posts; it's that they don't know they exist if nobody reports them. I'd guess a reported post is about 1000x more likely to receive a suspension than an unreported post. I find it completely useless to say "I was suspended for X, but there's a lot of other X out there too!" It's irrelevant whether other stuff exists. What's relevant is whether or not it's reported. So, if someone thinks other stuff should also lead to a suspension, then report it. If you choose not to report something, then don't question why it's still there. The answer to "Why didn't similar posts also lead to suspension" is almost always going to be "Because the similar posts weren't reported".

Now, I think leaning so heavily on the report feature gives the moderators a way to overlook stuff that wasn't reported but they happen to see and don't want to deal with. Either they don't want to deal with it because they personally don't have a problem with it or maybe they just don't want to put in the effort to deal with it if it's over the line but not super egregious. Or maybe some other reason. Regardless, I think it's clear they deal with what's reported and mostly ignore what's not reported.

 

[dgreen]

I post a miniscule amount compared to what I used to.  I've been banned for nothing 2x now so it's not even worth getting into it.  I like reading the shark board during draft time but that's about it.  This board has been strangled with over moderation in Joe's attempt to get woke.   I mean damn he killed the yoga pants thread because he thought it was an insult to women.   I get its his board but if he doesn't see how he is killing it slowly then I don't know what to say.  

Again he banned me, a poster over 15 years, for 4 months for simply saying it's moronic to think that biden stole the election.  Damn let that sink in.  How the hell is that productive?  

Thanks. I guess I still don't get it, though. Maybe the language you, and other posters, use about this place is hyperbolic or there's something else going on. For example, I can't imagine talking this way about a restaurant and continuing to return to that restaurant, even if it's going less than you used to go; going somewhere at all that you seemingly have such a low opinion of seems odd to me. But, the reality does exist that many people continue to come back here despite apparently thinking it's such a horrible place. I'd like to understand that better.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Maybe this comes across as whining. If so....oh well.

I'm the poster that wrote the email. Obviously this is my alias.  If this post "exposing" that (not that it would be hard to figure out) results in this username being TO'd as well, so be it. See ya'll in a month.

IMO, using my email as an example (while not giving me the courtesy of a direct response first.....or at all) is pretty disrespectful.  You also left out the first part of the email, which I think is relevant to the conversation.

In no way was I attempting to "big time" you with a "do you know who I am???" mentality. Not sure why you took it that way. I was merely trying to provide some context for my frustration.

My frustration is not with the "change" we've seen in the forums.(in terms of what is and isn't allowed) It wasn't even with the suspensions themselves (The PSF is volatile, so my language wasn't great. My Kuzma joke the other day could certainly be considered offensive to some...at the very least, the individual who felt the need to report me). 

My frustration was that....by simply banning posters without any sort of warning or explanation (not that I couldn't figure out why I was banned) you're essentially saying that...in your mind.....our years of supporting your business and helping you build this community (which, whether you accept it or not.....helps drive your business) dont even justify spending 30 seconds to send a PM saying "hey, that's not appropriate. Please knock it off".

I think there's a difference between expecting "special treatment" and hoping for a little leeway when you make a small mistake at a business that you've patronized for DECADES.

I know not to expect that now. I'll adjust my behavior accordingly (regardless of what name I post under) and as I said....I'll be voting with my wallet. My business clearly isn't valued, so I'll respectfully take it elsewhere.

TLEF

Thanks for clarifying. And I"m sorry you won't be supporting us any longer.

Three things.

1. We ask people to not post with obvious alias accounts. Please don't use this account to post more.

2. We don't allow posters to write: "Blonde kuzma looks like a lesbian". If they do, they'll be suspended.

3. That is completely independent of purchasing a Footballguys Premium Subscription. If you think that means we don't value your business, we'll just have to disagree. We don't have any way of knowing if posters here purchase a Footballguys Premium Subscription.

 

[Northern Voice]

Thanks. I guess I still don't get it, though. Maybe the language you, and other posters, use about this place is hyperbolic or there's something else going on. For example, I can't imagine talking this way about a restaurant and continuing to return to that restaurant, even if it's going less than you used to go; going somewhere at all that you seemingly have such a low opinion of seems odd to me. But, the reality does exist that many people continue to come back here despite apparently thinking it's such a horrible place. I'd like to understand that better.

What if all your buddies are still going to that restaurant every day for dinner?

I can very easily love the community here and want to continue to be part of it while at the same time disagree with the moderation practices. 

 

[dgreen]

What if all your buddies are still going to that restaurant every day for dinner?

I can very easily love the community here and want to continue to be part of it while at the same time disagree with the moderation practices. 

That makes sense. Personally, I'd move on to somewhere else if I had the same feelings toward this place as others seem to have, but I guess I can understand that could be a reason they still come back. 

\

 

[Zegras11]

I hope you read his post closely because it really wasn't a standard nazi joke. It was a harmless pun. Things need context.

My problem with some of the bannings is that context isn't remotely considered or given an ounce of time. It's like an admin drops in for his first time in a week and does a lot of drive byes to fill a quota or something. Hey Joe, look, I did my part to monitor the boards!   

I posted a line from The Jerk in a thread where 1/3 of the posts were similar schtick. A warning or 24 hours would have done the trick. I got a week. There's a lot of stress in our world these days. The schtick here really helps relieve some of it and spending ten extra seconds to gain some context would be nice.

 

[Northern Voice]

That makes sense. Personally, I'd move on to somewhere else if I had the same feelings toward this place as others seem to have, but I guess I can understand that could be a reason they still come back. 

\

Yeah, for a lot of us, particularly in the music, hockey and baseball threads that I frequent - and I know there are many others - it's been 15+ years. You can't really replace that.

Which is why I find it so frustrating seeing people who have been part of that for so long not coming back because they got a 3 month ban for a PG-13 comment about Trump or some such indiscretion. 

 

[Ilov80s]

I have subscribed here before but then stopped for awhile just because I feel like I know enough to get by without it. I'll subscribe this year just to counter the whining that poster did. 

 

[pantherclub]

That makes sense. Personally, I'd move on to somewhere else if I had the same feelings toward this place as others seem to have, but I guess I can understand that could be a reason they still come back. 

\

Thats the point, people are moving on.  Traffic is way down on here.  Joe has even acknowledged it.  Long time posters have vanished.  What started organically in the Shark Pool and made its way to FFA has basically been slowly strangled by whatever it is that Joe is trying to instill on here.  Now I suspect most long timers are just monitoring the Shark pool during the season hoping to gain a nugget or two from the insiders of whatever team.   And the restaurant/message board comparison is a bit weak.  It takes about a minute to flip over here and scroll through the threads and with no cost.  Just a force of habit for me but like I said I posted on here religiously for 15+ years and now its just "meh, not worth posting anything remotely controversial"  

 

[pantherclub]

Yeah, for a lot of us, particularly in the music, hockey and baseball threads that I frequent - and I know there are many others - it's been 15+ years. You can't really replace that.

Which is why I find it so frustrating seeing people who have been part of that for so long not coming back because they got a 3 month ban for a PG-13 comment about Trump or some such indiscretion. 

I posted that people are moronic if they thought the election was stolen as trump implied.  No warning nothing, boom 4 months.  Now who looks foolish.  It literally makes no sense when the solution is so much easier. 

 

[Ilov80s]

Also people saying they have been suspended or banned for nothing, I call BS. I've been on here probably 12 years with a #### ton of posts and I have been suspended once and for a total misunderstanding. I made a joke about Irish-Americans trying to be self deprecating because I am in fact Irish-American. I don't buy all these people claiming they get suspended for nothing. 

 

[Ilov80s]

Thats the point, people are moving on.  Traffic is way down on here.  Joe has even acknowledged it.  Long time posters have vanished.  What started organically in the Shark Pool and made its way to FFA has basically been slowly strangled by whatever it is that Joe is trying to instill on here.  Now I suspect most long timers are just monitoring the Shark pool during the season hoping to gain a nugget or two from the insiders of whatever team.   And the restaurant/message board comparison is a bit weak.  It takes about a minute to flip over here and scroll through the threads and with no cost.  Just a force of habit for me but like I said I posted on here religiously for 15+ years and now its just "meh, not worth posting anything remotely controversial"  

I think the message boards suffered more due to Twitter and Reddit though. 

 

[pantherclub]

I think the message boards suffered more due to Twitter and Reddit though. 

Maybe but Joe himself has stated the moderation has impacted here.  You cannot simply start banning 15+ year guys and not see a negative impact

 

[Ilov80s]

Maybe but Joe himself has stated the moderation has impacted here.  You cannot simply start banning 15+ year guys and not see a negative impact

Oh I am sure it has had an impact, not denying that at all. The difference is there hasn't been much youngblood replacing it because of other social media platforms that didn't fully exist 10-15 years ago. 

 

[Capella]

Yea message boards like this are dying. People flock to Twitter, tiktok and giant boards like Reddit with tens of thousands of subs. A new board like this one would never make it if created now. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

My problem with some of the bannings is that context isn't remotely considered or given an ounce of time. It's like an admin drops in for his first time in a week and does a lot of drive byes to fill a quota or something. Hey Joe, look, I did my part to monitor the boards!   

 

Understood. As I said above, I'll talk to the moderators about shorter suspensions.

I don't agree the moderators see it where "context isn't remotely considered or given an ounce of time".  It's a thankless job and they work a lot harder than just a drive by quota fill thing you're accusing them of. 

 

[pantherclub]

Oh I am sure it has had an impact, not denying that at all. The difference is there hasn't been much youngblood replacing it because of other social media platforms that didn't fully exist 10-15 years ago. 

Sure but this board had a great history with a lot of close knit posters.  Its been decimated in the past 24 months.  It just has.  Damn we had some great Tshirt exchanges and whatnot. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

Thats the point, people are moving on.  Traffic is way down on here.  Joe has even acknowledged it.  

I don't think that at all. Traffic seems as high as ever and topics fly off the front page if they're not commented on. 

 

[pantherclub]

Understood. As I said above, I'll talk to the moderators about shorter suspensions.

I don't agree the moderators see it where "context isn't remotely considered or given an ounce of time".  It's a thankless job and they work a lot harder than just a drive by quota fill thing you're accusing them of. 

Honest question.  Why do you feel the need to even ban folks?  Why not take their posts that you feel bannable and expound on them?  Wouldnt that be more useful than a straight 4 month ban without any explanation?  

 

[pantherclub]

I don't think that at all. Traffic seems as high as ever and topics fly off the front page if they're commented on. 

Sure buddy.  We can agree to disagree but I am sure there are metrics that you can dive into that compare time periods.