Soaring Eagle
Footballguy
found it very interesting that mcmichael, walker and hagan all had significantly more targets than chambers this week...
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Chambers 4th in targets on his own team this week (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Soaring Eagle
- Start date
Crusaderfan
Footballguy
This doesn't surprise me at all. Every week Chambers is no factor in the first half then they seem to make an effort to get the ball to him in the second half. It's very frustrating and it's made me question just how good a coach Saban really is. What kind of game plan are they coming up with that involves utilizing their best WR for only half the game.
Willie
Willie
His third touchdown in five games will keep him in my lineup.
As the previous poster said, it seems like he hardly gets a look in the first half. He did have a bobble that he bounced up in the air that the Jets picked off, but he didn't have many targets at all in the first half.
The one thing I love is that he gets a target evrytime they get within the five.
As the previous poster said, it seems like he hardly gets a look in the first half. He did have a bobble that he bounced up in the air that the Jets picked off, but he didn't have many targets at all in the first half.
The one thing I love is that he gets a target evrytime they get within the five.
AnonymousBob
Footballguy
Chambers is catching 46.4 percent of all passes thrown his way.Welker is catching 68.8McMichael is catching 63.2Ronnie Brown is catching 90.9
Gatorman
Supreme Elite Maximum Tier
I have been saying this forever. Chambers is not a #1 WR. He is a #2 at best. He drops too many balls to be considered a #1. He has a 50% career reception mark. All other #1 WRs (and even the good #2's) are closer to 60% (usually about 58% is the norm)That bobble that went for the first int should have parked his butt right on the bench.
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
He's not that good. Has a few big games surrounded by a lot of mediocrity every year.
As previously posted, he's not a WR1 but he's a solid guy to have on your team as WR2/WR3. The only problem is this year the hype was crazy around him with C-Pepp. He was drafted like a WR1, kind of like Andre Johnson last year.
Fact is, he scores TD's and is targeted a ton in the red zone. He's currently my WR3 in my keeper and I'm fine with his production.
Buy low. he's a playmaker and touchdown maker.
Fact is, he scores TD's and is targeted a ton in the red zone. He's currently my WR3 in my keeper and I'm fine with his production.
Buy low. he's a playmaker and touchdown maker.
if it's catchable he gives every effort to get it. Really like this guy. Amazing Chambers can't look over and see the effort and feel like he needs to try harder
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I don't think anyone's ever questioned Chambers' work ethic or hustle. The guy just doesn't have great hands. He's an amazing athlete with world class jumping ability. He just doesn't have Steve Largent hands.By the way, Welker dropped an easy pass at a key point in the fourth quarter against the Jets. It happens.
I'm not sure what it is but the diving, stretching/twisting backwards to catch a pass behind ya, sacrificing your body by taking a big hit...all those things added up, I don't think Chambers gives enough.Make sense?Yeah I've seen Welker drop some but I was just pointing to effort.
stevegamer
Footballguy
Steve Largent hands? Chambers is practically Roberto Duran... "hands of stone" He's not the Dolphins best WR - I'm not sure who is, but he's just doesn't have #1 WR caliber hands. I'm sick of hearing how he'll have a good catch % year one of these times once they get a good QB - but he has a bad catch% comapred to his peers.
cracKer
Shawn Culcasi
Why would you be sick of hearing this? Don't draft him and you don't have to worry about it.:simplify:
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I think you misread the previous post
M
MLBrandow
Guest
Now, I hate the Dolphins, and I take time out of my day to laugh at anyone who thinks Chambers will put up stud numbers... but he is probably among the top-5 most talented receivers in this league.That said, look at the QBs that have thrown to him over the years, and you'll understand why he's not such a sure-handed receiver mentally.Put this guy on a team with Palmer, Manning, Hasselbeck, McNabb, and you'd see him a top-5 performer for sure, rather than the spot-elite-most-of-the-time-crap production we see from him now.
So did you avoid Andre Johnson this year?Chambers has had to deal with mediocre QB's his whole career and some of you make it seem like he's had Peyton throwing to him.
Dunno how many times I need to keep making this point, but here goes.Point #1- J.P Losman, Alex Smith, Kyle Boller, and Brooks Bollinger were all as bad or worse last year than Gus Frerotte.Point #2- Lee Evans, Eric Moulds, Arnaz Battle, Derrick Mason, and Laveranues Coles all posted anywhere between solid (54%) and spectacular (64%) catch%s with those luminaries.Point #3- Welker has consistantly put up a better catch% than Chambers *with the exact same QBs*.If Chambers is a top5 WR who's being killed by shoddy QB play, explain how Welker's managing to overcome that exact same shoddy QB play, and how Evans/Moulds/Battle/Mason/Coles have overcome EVEN SHODDIER QB play.Sorry, but that "look at who was throwing him the ball" arguement just isn't going to fly with me. It'd be one thing if you had a guy with a history of success who saw a huge drop in his catch% because he played with the worst QB in the entire NFL, bar none (Muhsin Muhammad, anyone?), but it's quite another when we're talking about a guy who has a career 50% catch%.
I don't care what his catch % is. As long as he keeps getting his 11 touchdowns a year (as he's had 2 of the last 3 years), he can be a starter for me.Now, as far as those who drafted him to be their number one WR, based on the fact that he finally had a good quarterback throwing to him this year, that QB didn't exactly hold up his end of the bargain, either.
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Quality info here.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
I get all the Dolphin games here and It's interesting that it seems when the Fins are in their ignore Chambers mode they can barely produce a first down, and when they're force-feeding it to him they generally have their best drives of the game. I dunno if it's just that defenses are in their prevent mode by then or what.
Chambers has traditionally had big 2nd halfs (of the season), I think he's a hold at this point.
Chambers has traditionally had big 2nd halfs (of the season), I think he's a hold at this point.
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Bob Sacamano
Footballguy
This guy knew things
Seriously, though, this is pretty standard Chambers fare, is it not? You suffer through 10 games of poor production, get a few nuggets of hope here and there, and something like 2-3 big games per season to make his statistical totals seem reasonable when, in fact, he killed his owner in more games than he helped them.
Seriously, though, this is pretty standard Chambers fare, is it not? You suffer through 10 games of poor production, get a few nuggets of hope here and there, and something like 2-3 big games per season to make his statistical totals seem reasonable when, in fact, he killed his owner in more games than he helped them.
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http://sports.excite.com/nfl/stats.html
Chambers 65 targets 28 catches 2 drops through seven games
35 ball are unaccounted for, he didn't catch them but he also didn't drop them. That tells me the 35 I mention must have been off target and uncatchable.
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But he only has two drops is not putting his hands up and letting all the others just pass on by? I'm not sure I understand the argument of "he is not catching the ball".
rabidfireweasel
Footballguy
No, it doesn't tell you that. It tells you are 35 balls weren't dropped. It doesn't tell you that they were off target. That is what you want to hear. Chambers may have ran the wrong route, a poor route, or slipped on some of them. You have no idea. I am willing to acknowledge that Welker will likely have a slightly higher catch percentage because Chamgers is going to get more jump ball situations and targeted in the corners of the endzone more. Still, the discrepency between him and everyone else on his team inidicates that he simply doesn't run his routes as well, doesn't know the offense as well, or doesn't try as hard as his teammates.
This is why they are going to move him around and try to get him more opprotunities.
I've been a Chambers supporter from day 1. As a Packers fan, I truly wished he'd been drafted instead of Ferguson...but that's water under the bridge.
To look at his catch % and compare it to someone like Welker's is stretching it. Welker better have a higher catch % as the passes he sees should be caught with great regularity. You know the kind...short screens, quick slants or crossing patterns as a # 3 WR are much more easily executed and completed than the long outs or deep fly patterns to the wide side of the field that Chambers is typically asked to run.
If Miami had a line that could pass block well enough for a QB to progress through his reads, and a QB with enough arm strength to make all the NFL throws accurately...Chambers catch % and production would be greatly improved.
If Miami's coaching staff were competant, they'd be creating new ways to utilize Chambers in an offense where the QB seems to be only comfortable...or capable of regularly completing passes to the short side of the field.
To look at his catch % and compare it to someone like Welker's is stretching it. Welker better have a higher catch % as the passes he sees should be caught with great regularity. You know the kind...short screens, quick slants or crossing patterns as a # 3 WR are much more easily executed and completed than the long outs or deep fly patterns to the wide side of the field that Chambers is typically asked to run.
If Miami had a line that could pass block well enough for a QB to progress through his reads, and a QB with enough arm strength to make all the NFL throws accurately...Chambers catch % and production would be greatly improved.
If Miami's coaching staff were competant, they'd be creating new ways to utilize Chambers in an offense where the QB seems to be only comfortable...or capable of regularly completing passes to the short side of the field.
rabidfireweasel
Footballguy
You are trying to be clever, but you are failing. They are moving around not to get him more opportunities. He has had 65 opportunities which is fifth most in the league. They are going to move him around so that he will be more productive. It is production level which is poor, not his opportunity level.
rabidfireweasel
Footballguy
These makes sense in theory. However, it reality, it fall apart. Chambers is ovly averaging 10.5 yards per catch. That is only half a yard more than welker per catch and almost 5 yards less than Booker per catch. Booker is clearly a more viable deep threat, and he is catching more than 55% of the balls thrown his way.
Not trying to be clever just wondering why a team with a guy who can't catch, run decent routes or the right route at all and can't get separation would waste their time finding ways to get him involved instead of eliminating him from the game plan.
Because they know much much more than you do.
I think he had a valid point. I, for one, think Miami has wasted way too much time and energy into trying to make Chambers the next superstar.
Thank you Junior, my response was sarcasm designed too make the point that you just made. They do know more than me and rapid and all the other speculators who think they can evaluate and enumerate players. If a coach thought a player wasn't playing up to their potential or dogging it or droping to many catchable balls they would make the necessary changes like benching them or limiting their touches or looks. They certainly wouldn't make a point to look for more ways to get a bad talent or slacker or underacheiver the ball.
Sorry, pal. I didn't read the entire thread. I didn't know which side you were on. People love to throw the 43% completion percentage around, but Chambers has only drooped two passes all year. That's a ton of crappy throws.I, for one, am thrilled that the team is moving him into the slot. I never felt that he was a huge deep threat. If he's money in the redzone (which he is), wouldn't he also be money on third downs? Just this week alone, I watched him make two fantastic catches, out of bounds, on throws that Harrington threw erratically. Give him more short-range throws. Give your playmaker the ball.
Amen brother, amen.
rabidfireweasel
Footballguy
Coaches always try to get more production out of their players. They will also play their most productive players, even if those players are not playing to their highest efficiency. There is a reason a player with Chambers great size, speed and vertical dropped past the 50th pick. It is because he was seen as raw and a bit of a project. Despite that rawness, he has still been a productive and useful player. His presence opens up the field for his teammates. However, other Miami wr's are currently more productive. In the second half against NE, NE made the halftime adjustment of doubling Welker, not Chambers, because Welker was uncoverable. It is fact that Chambers has always had a poor catch percentage. This percentage is poor compared not only to other players in the league, but to his teammates (even those that have a much a YPR average.) It is not just the QB. Certainly the coaching staff must take some responsibility and do a better job to put Chambers in situations that better maximize his strengthes and minimize his weaknesses. However, to simply give Chambersa pass and not consider partially responsible is silly. When you say the 35 unaccounted for passes were simply off target or uncatchable, you are clearly missing something.
So how many of those uncaught 35 balls would you say Chambers is responsible for how do we put a number to that? Also he was raw coming out of college but you certainly can't consider him raw or a project anymore, I would think by now his route running and knowledge of the system is pretty sound. We certainly can't ignore the numbers he has managed to put up with below average QB's. In my opinion his hands are every bit as good if not better than TO's, but yet we are not having to question his ability the difference is the QB position. A quarterback is capable of making you look anywhere from great to not so great. Chambers is drawing double coverage, single coverage by the other teams best corner and so on. In fact the only reason Welker and Booker get any play is most likely directly related to the coverage that Chambers draws. I'm not saying he is the best receiver in the game but he is certainly in the top ten and most certainly should not be questioned as to whether he is a number 1.
If you think there are only three types of passes- catches, drops, and crappy throws- then I'm bowing out of this arguement. You're obviously out of touch with reality, and I'm not sure there's anything I can do to help you.
rabidfireweasel
Footballguy
We are the the point of impasse. We just disagree, but that's fine, and what message boards are for. I will post this, but won't repeat myself anymore.A) I would say he is responsible for close to 9. Marty Booker is averaging 15.4 YPC (4.9 yards more than Chambers) so he is not catching little dump offs. Chambers has not averaged that since his rookie year. Booker, with the same weak arm QB's is catching 55% percent of the balls thrown his way. However, whenever I mention this, or someone else mentions it, you ignore it. Please explain how a very average Booker is able to do this. My gues is that Chambers should be performing at close to this level. If he was catching 55% of the balls thrown his way, he would have 37 catches.
B) Why can't you consider him raw now. Aside from last year, most years he performed a very similiar level to his rookie year, except with more catches and a much lower YPC. I am not sure why is savvy simply because he was experienced. David Carr, prior to this year, still had no pocket presence and made terrible throws. Ditto Aaron Brooks. I am not sure why he would be knowledable of the system which has been in place less than 25 games. I don't think Saban looked at the Wanny/Bates playbook and said, "Let's keep all of this in place. It looks awesome."
C) Good wr's get theirs no matter who is throwing the ball. Holt and Bruce put up numbers with Ryan Fitzpatrick and Jamie Martin. Chad Johnson broke out with John Kitna. Santan Moss has done well with a beaten up Mark Brunell. Randy Moss is outproducing Chambers with perhaps the most poorly conceived offense game plan in football. Boldin has put up numbers with Blake, McCown, Warner and Leinart. Joey Galloway got 1200 yards in a conservative offense with Griese and Simms. Welker and Booker are doing better with the same QB's. Certainly he would better with a better QB. However, a 50% catch rate (which is no off year for chambers) is terrible.
D) This is not true anymore. Teams are turning more attention to other, more productive players. I pointed out that NE's half time adjustment was to double Welker- another point you have chosen to ignore. . From the October 9th Boston Globe Here is the quote- "Belichick said one defensive adjustment the Patriots made in the second half was to double-team Welker more often. Welker had seven catches in the first half and finished with nine. "
E) I am not certain he is top ten. I would put him in a big group of similiar players between 11 and 22 (I will not include the success of Colston, Jennings or Berrian here because their success is too recent) range: which makes him an average "best wr" on a team.
He is simply not in the class of
Holt
Harrison
Owens
Boldin
Fitzgerald
Smith
I think most GM's would prefer:
Randy Moss
Santana Moss
Chad Johnson
Hines Ward
So I would lump him in right with these guys:
Driver
Wayne
Jackson
Burress
Walker
Roy Wiliams
A. Johnson
Galloway
Evans
Mason
Coles
Coles, Evans, Jackson, Walker, and A. Johnson are all better than Chambers, without question.Also, Owens is overrated and is currently the second best WR on his own team. I'd rather have Glenn than Owens, and rather have either than Chambers.
You had a somewhat valid argument going until the "second best on his team" statement.If you're talking fantasy football numbers, then you may be correct about all the guys who you think are better than Chambers, but if you put Chambers on a better team, with a better quarterback, he'd be a top ten receiver, easily. Maybe top 5-7.
Terrell Owens-Catch% = 50% (56th in the NFL). Yards per Target = 6.7 (61st in the NFL).Terry Glenn-Catch% = 66% (15th in the NFL). Yards per Target = 8.6 (29th in the NFL).I stand by what I said. This season, in terms of actual, real-world NFL production, Terrell Owens is the second best WR on his own team. Terry Glenn catches SIGNIFICANTLY more balls per target, he converts SIGNIFICANTLY more first downs per target, and he gains SIGNIFICANTLY more yards per target. Basically, if it's good for the offense, Glenn does it better than Owens. The only reason people don't realize how much better Glenn is than Owens right now is because Owens is a whiny baby who keeps crying because he isn't getting the ball, so he gets targeted so much more that, while his production just STINKS, his overall numbers look acceptable. Seriously, the only per-target stat that Owens leads Glenn in are TDs and drops, and even the TD number comes with a huge asterisk- Glenn has 2 TDs on 6 red-zone targets, while Owens has 3 on 9, so they're actually catching TDs at the same rate in the red zone. Of course, Glenn's also averaging 6 yards per target in the red zone, compared to Owens' 2 yards per target.Also, I'm sick of people using the "Better team, better QB" arguement for Chris Chambers. Last season, the Miami Dolphins went 9-7 and were considered one of the hottest teams in the entire league. Last season, Chris Chambers had Gus Frerotte throwing to him (who may not be a prize, but Rod Smith, Ed McCaffrey, Randy Moss, and Germane freaking Crowell have all managed a 60% catch% with him). Meanwhile, Lee Evans was playing for the 5-11 Bills and had Kelly "I have a girl's name" Holcomb and J.P. "No nickname needed" Losman throwing him the ball... and yet Lee Evans still managed to post a 5% higher catch% and almost TWO FULL YARDS more per reception.Studs will produce no matter who is throwing them the ball. As I said, Rod Smith and Ed McCaffrey produced with Frerotte at the helm. Randy Moss produced with Frerotte at the helm. Torry Holt produced with Ryan Fitzpatrick slinging the ball. Anquan Boldin set rookie records with Jeff Blake lining up under center. Meanwhile, Chambers hasn't posted a catch% better than 50% since 2002 (52%). This is why those former WRs are all studs, while Chambers is nothing more than a wildly overrated WR who gets a ridiculously undeserved number of targets and who also happens to be a physical freak of nature.Edit: Again, I stand by what I said. Holt, Harrison, Owens, Boldin, Fitzgerald, Steve Smith, Randy Moss, Santana Moss, Chad Johnson, Hines Ward, Glenn, Darrell Jackson, Walker, A. Johnson, Evans, and Coles are all better WRs at this point in time than Chambers.
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I can't argue with you about target percentage. You seem obsessed with stats, so nothing I tell you will change how you feel. Chambers caught 2 of 9 targets last week. That's terrible. 22%. But if you watched the game (as I did), you would have seen a ball overthrown in the back of the endzone, which Chambers caught, but out of th eendline. You would have also seen a deep pass on the left sideline where Chambers made an incredible diving catch, but the pass was too far out of bounds and he didn't have a chance to get his feet down. You would have also seen the two receptions that did count. And you would have seen five passes that Jerry Rice, Shaquille O'Neil, nor the Diet Pepsi machine would have had a chance to catch.Before you get too enamored with the target percentage stat, realize which receivers occupy the bottom of the league right now. Chambers is at 43%. Joey Galloway is at 38%. Randy Moss- 44%. Braylon Edwards- 44% Bernard Berrian and Terrell Owens are 48%.What is the common denominator of these guys? They are all their teams' playmakers and quarterbacks often try to force balls their way in an attempt to get them a big play. They are also guys who run a lot of deep patterns. Obviously, target percentage will be low.Do yourself a favor and watch a Dolphin game instead of being a slave to NFL.com's satistic page.
You're like the 90th person to tell me to watch the games. Unless you're a Miami fan, I probably watch more Dolphin games than you do. 80% of my main fantasy league are all Dolphins fans, and every Sunday we always watch the Dolphins games together in the dedicated Dolphins sportsbar. I watch Dolphins games. I agree that Chambers' numbers weren't as bad as they looked last week- that 22% catch% probably should have been a 44% or even 50% catch%. That's hardly a ringing endorsement.I do disagree with your characterization of Chambers as someone who runs deep routes, which results in his low catch%. Chambers is averaging 10.7 yards per reception. Booker is averaging 15.4. Booker also has a better catch%. I can also tell you from watching the game that Booker isn't inflating his ypr stat with lots of yards after the catch. Booker is more of a deep threat than Chambers is at this point in time, and he's still catching a higher percentage of balls thrown to him (56%!!!) by the exact same brutally bad QB on the exact same brutally bad team. Chambers has been running much the same routes as Wes Welker, who by the way also happens to have a *23%* better catch% than Chambers (68% to 43%) despite playing with the exact same brutally bad QB on the exact same brutally bad team. You could, of course, blame it on the coverages... but Welker's drawn as many double-teams as Chambers has this season. I say that based on what my own two eyes have seen while actually watching Miami games.As for players having low catch% because they're playmakers and the QB is forcing them the ball... no. Steve Smith caught 69% of the passes thrown his way last year despite having the hugest disparity between his targets and targets towards the rest of the team. Randy Moss had a 60+% catch% back in the heyday of the Randy Ratio (which is the DEFINITION of forcing the ball to someone). Galloway was the only target on his team last year and he still managed to snag 55% of his targets. Those guys have such a low catch% because they're just having a bad year, plain and simple (well, except for Berrian- his low catch% has a lot to do with how ridiculously deep he's been going, and is mitigated by the fact that, even with his low catch%, he's still averaging almost 10 yards per target).Actually, speaking of yards per target, that's really a phenominal little statistic because it accounts for players who don't catch the ball as much because they're generally going deeper. Statistically speaking, no simple statistic correlates better with winning than yards per attempt or yards per attempt against. Yards per target is a really good simple statistic for evaluating how well a player is performing. I already mentioned Owens' 6.7 yards per target, but here's the YPT for everyone else on that list you provided.Randy Moss- 6.5Braylon Edwards- 7.1Galloway- 6.3Berrian- 9.7Chambers- 4.6Chambers has more targets than ANY of those other players, and yet he still has fewer yards than any of them except for Owens, too.If you want to progress beyond simple statistics, there are a lot of advanced metrics over at Football Outsiders that track how each play compares to league average. According to Football Outsiders, out of the 74 WRs in the NFL with 25+ targets, only Roddy White and Dennis Northcutt have been worse than Chambers on a per-play basis.Any way you slice it, Chambers has been Bad with a capital B, and Welker and Booker have both been so good that it's pretty hard to lay this one at the feet of the QB. I may use a lot of statistics to back up my arguement, but I promise you I'm not a "stats guy" who doesn't watch the games- I'm using statistics to back up my arguement here, not to formulate my opinion. And you can discount the statistics at your own peril, but pretty much every conceivable per-play statistic that exists rates Chris Chambers as one of the bottom 10 WRs in the entire NFL right now. I understand that there are mitigating circumstances, and I don't truly believe that Chambers is a bottom-10 WR, but I *PROMISE* you that top-10 WRs *NEVER* look as bad as Chambers has currently looked. Randy Moss, Torry Holt, Terrell Owens, Marvin Harrison, Chad Johnson, Steve Smith, Santana Moss, Laveranues Coles, Anquan Boldin... none of these guys EVER finish in the bottom 10 in the NFL, no matter who is throwing them the ball or who is covering them or whatever. Chambers is still a mediocre WR who is far too dependent on everything else being absolutely perfect in order to succeed. Elite WRs are still good when everything else isn't perfect.
nygiants56
Footballguy
How is Andre Johnson NOT in the 'A' list of WR's you've ranked, the list that includes Holt ,Harrison , et al? Johnson leads the entire NFL in every statistical category: receptions,yards,tds ( tied with a few other WR's). He's the Real Deal!
gump
Footballguy
He's nowhere near in TDs...
rabidfireweasel
Footballguy
I love Andre Johnson. I lived in Houston until the summer of 2005. I think he is much much better than Chambers. Historically though, Chambers has been more productive and I was debating with a Chambers fan. I wanted to limit my debate to players who were pretty much undisputably better than Chambers.To your point, the reality is that Johnson has never had a 1150 yard season or a 7 td season. So while he is playing well now, he needs to do it surpass both of those numbers for full season before he gets put into my elite group.
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