-OZ-
Footballguy
Right.... that's mother nature obviouslyi don’t believe God causes earth quakes.
I kid
God put things in motion. If it wasn’t for earthquakes, many positive things wouldn’t exist.
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Christian Stuff - A Thread (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Joe Bryant
- Start date
God put things in motion. If it wasn’t for earthquakes, many positive things wouldn’t exist.
Scoresman
Footballguy
Then he might be good but not all powerful. This is obviously going to depend on a person’s specific belief in what god is, but I still claim that any belief in an all powerful and all good god does not fit the world he supposedly created that we live in.
-OZ-
Footballguy
He’s no wizard of Oz.
Then he might be good but not all powerful. This is obviously going to depend on a person’s specific belief in what god is, but I still claim that any belief in an all powerful and all good god does not fit the world he supposedly created that we live in.
It’s possible God sees non intervention as the best course of action in the grand scheme. Except a few times.
I mean he decided to impregnate a virgin in order to get us to visit him.
Thanks for the good discussion.
I said in the original post, I'd share my thoughts on the Instagram clip.
Obviously, the guy there has put effort into his thinking. And he seems sincere.
A friend sent that clip to me and he's someone I love and think a ton of. His faith is important to him and he tries to think deeply about things.
I told him I know this likely won't be popular, but while I respect the speaker’s sincerity and intent, I'm not sure that answers anything.
I can't imagine a parent who is not a Christian that's lost a child getting comfort there.
Again, I know it it's not popular, but I sometimes wonder on this question if instead of trying to offer an intellectual answer or reasoning, even though obviously sincere, that it may be better to say something like, "My heart is broken for you. I can't explain why this happened. It's messed up and I hate it. And as hard as it may seem to believe, I think God hates it too, and I think he loves you. And I know it seems wrong that if he's omnipotent how could this happen and I can't explain that either. But this is the best I've got. "
I said in the original post, I'd share my thoughts on the Instagram clip.
Obviously, the guy there has put effort into his thinking. And he seems sincere.
A friend sent that clip to me and he's someone I love and think a ton of. His faith is important to him and he tries to think deeply about things.
I told him I know this likely won't be popular, but while I respect the speaker’s sincerity and intent, I'm not sure that answers anything.
I can't imagine a parent who is not a Christian that's lost a child getting comfort there.
Again, I know it it's not popular, but I sometimes wonder on this question if instead of trying to offer an intellectual answer or reasoning, even though obviously sincere, that it may be better to say something like, "My heart is broken for you. I can't explain why this happened. It's messed up and I hate it. And as hard as it may seem to believe, I think God hates it too, and I think he loves you. And I know it seems wrong that if he's omnipotent how could this happen and I can't explain that either. But this is the best I've got. "
I also fully admit I'm biased because of my experiences. I was that guy he's talking about, the Christian that gave up on God, after my best friend and roommate died in a car crash a few weeks after we graduated and right before he was to start medical school.
I heard intellectual reasoning like the guy in the video clip and it did not help.
It pushed me 100% into my natural inclination of working hard and leaning into what I thought was getting things done on my own accord.
Tim Keller talks about "Counterfeit Gods" or making idols out of things that aren't God. I made success my idol.
I drifted away for 10 years, trying to do it all on my own, until he pulled me back in.
I heard intellectual reasoning like the guy in the video clip and it did not help.
It pushed me 100% into my natural inclination of working hard and leaning into what I thought was getting things done on my own accord.
Tim Keller talks about "Counterfeit Gods" or making idols out of things that aren't God. I made success my idol.
I drifted away for 10 years, trying to do it all on my own, until he pulled me back in.
And what pulled me back in was not somehow seeing the light or logic of an intellectual argument or debate.
It was realizing I couldn't do it on my own, that I'd been running away, and that, even though there are things like this I don't understand and don't like, it's all I've got.
It was realizing I couldn't do it on my own, that I'd been running away, and that, even though there are things like this I don't understand and don't like, it's all I've got.
It's not nearly as pretty as an intellectual debate. I don't think it sells very well and it's not too attractive. But if I'm honest, this scene hits more on the raw emotion of how I came back more than any intellectual answer to an argument.
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Scoresman
Footballguy
He’s no wizard of Oz.
Then he might be good but not all powerful. This is obviously going to depend on a person’s specific belief in what god is, but I still claim that any belief in an all powerful and all good god does not fit the world he supposedly created that we live in.
It’s possible God sees non intervention as the best course of action in the grand scheme. Except a few times.
I mean he decided to impregnate a virgin in order to get us to visit him.
I guess you would know...
rockaction
Footballguy
It’s great that you found your way and are at peace, Joe. I hope your faith continues to edify you and consistently brings your inherent and positive qualities to light.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
As long we make the assumptions that there is a god, god is generally all powerful, god is generally for good and god is aware of us, I think the answer could lie in something like
- what seems bad to us is good in the larger sense of things
- For example, how a child can't understand why a parent makes them do difficult things. From a parent's far more wise and experienced position, they fully understand why potty training or doing chores or grounding a kid is for good, to the kid they might seem cruel and evoke visceral reactions.
- Like pointilism, where we are the points and god is the artist. To any random point, their surroundings must look chaotic, pointless, random. To the viewer who sees life from a distance, each point is an importart part of the big picture. We as people simply might be too close to understand what is going on in the grand scheme. Being an orange dot next to all these black and brown dots might seem out of place, a mistake, cruel. Then with a step back we see that the orange dot is part of a spark that starts a bonfire that brings light to a dark cold night.
rockaction
Footballguy
I’ll go ahead and say that I find comfort in intellectual reasoning like Ilov80s just engaged in. It’s just the way I’m wired. I loved the Augustine piece in Wikipedia. I felt better.
Once in a while you can get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right
Once in a while you can get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right
Captain Cranks
Footballguy
IMO, this is an example of making statements that don't have substance behind them to make the math work. As Jayrod posits, we don't have a full understanding of God and the world, but we do know a) God put things in motion and b) if it wasn't for the way he put things in motion, good things wouldn't happen?
-OZ-
Footballguy
With all due respect, you’re not thinking this through.
Have a Great Day.
Charlie Steiner
Footballguy
Didn't watch the video; the thread title drew me in.
Off the top of my head, I believe the question "why do bad things happen to good people" is a red herring from a 'biblical' perspective. One example of this comes from my favorite book of the Bible, Ecclesiastes (it is widely agreed that King Solomon wrote this near the end of his life, when he was reflecting back on all that he had learned), where it talks about the 'futility' of life:
There is an evil which I have seen under the sun, and it is widespread among mankind: a person to whom God has given riches, wealth, and honor, so that his soul lacks nothing of all that he desires, yet God has not given him the opportunity to enjoy these things, but a foreigner enjoys them. This is futility and a severe affliction. If a man fathers a hundred children and lives many years, however many they may be, but his soul is not satisfied with good things and he does not even have a proper burial, then I say, “Better the miscarriage than he, for a miscarriage comes in futility and goes into darkness; and its name is covered in darkness. It has not even seen the sun nor does it know it; yet it is better off than that man. Even if the man lives a thousand years twice, but does not see good things—do not all go to one and the same place?”
A secular example I can think of comes from our own pop culture:
Life IS pain, Highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something.
Sometimes, pain happens when it shouldn't, sometimes it doesn't when it should. Bad things have happened in my life, including many of which I've caused directly and indirectly, for which I've been mad at God for 'allowing to happen,' so I've asked this question myself. Anyone that wants to 'blame' God for that needs to take it up with Him directly. I've done that too, and the closest thing to an answer I get is akin to what God told Job in the book named after him. TLDR version, God spends two chapters listing off things He did/does, from creating the universe to setting up the mechanisms for life and the physical cycles of the earth and more, then asks Job:
Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Further adding:
Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
Do you have an arm like God’s,
and can your voice thunder like his?
Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor,
and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.
There's more, but I hope I've made the point that believers in God don't have and will never have a full enough picture to justify life's evils to the world at large, and can only cling to their faith/trust that God knows what He's doing, and no matter our perceptions and opinions, He has the best/most perfect outcome already waiting for us at the end, whenever that is.
Off the top of my head, I believe the question "why do bad things happen to good people" is a red herring from a 'biblical' perspective. One example of this comes from my favorite book of the Bible, Ecclesiastes (it is widely agreed that King Solomon wrote this near the end of his life, when he was reflecting back on all that he had learned), where it talks about the 'futility' of life:
There is an evil which I have seen under the sun, and it is widespread among mankind: a person to whom God has given riches, wealth, and honor, so that his soul lacks nothing of all that he desires, yet God has not given him the opportunity to enjoy these things, but a foreigner enjoys them. This is futility and a severe affliction. If a man fathers a hundred children and lives many years, however many they may be, but his soul is not satisfied with good things and he does not even have a proper burial, then I say, “Better the miscarriage than he, for a miscarriage comes in futility and goes into darkness; and its name is covered in darkness. It has not even seen the sun nor does it know it; yet it is better off than that man. Even if the man lives a thousand years twice, but does not see good things—do not all go to one and the same place?”
A secular example I can think of comes from our own pop culture:
Life IS pain, Highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something.
Sometimes, pain happens when it shouldn't, sometimes it doesn't when it should. Bad things have happened in my life, including many of which I've caused directly and indirectly, for which I've been mad at God for 'allowing to happen,' so I've asked this question myself. Anyone that wants to 'blame' God for that needs to take it up with Him directly. I've done that too, and the closest thing to an answer I get is akin to what God told Job in the book named after him. TLDR version, God spends two chapters listing off things He did/does, from creating the universe to setting up the mechanisms for life and the physical cycles of the earth and more, then asks Job:
Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Further adding:
Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
Do you have an arm like God’s,
and can your voice thunder like his?
Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor,
and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.
There's more, but I hope I've made the point that believers in God don't have and will never have a full enough picture to justify life's evils to the world at large, and can only cling to their faith/trust that God knows what He's doing, and no matter our perceptions and opinions, He has the best/most perfect outcome already waiting for us at the end, whenever that is.
Captain Cranks
Footballguy
I think I have, I just don't have a forgone conclusion I need to reach. To be clear, it's not that I think good things can't come from tragedy. Rather that this is being used to dismiss suffering in the first place. You mention above that salvation is the "ultimate thing". What makes you believe this other than it being in the Bible?
kupcho1
Footballguy
I thought for sure the speaker was wearing tap shoes, but then they panned back and you could see he was wearing sneakers.
My, can that guy dance around a question. And the succession of straw man arguments used to avoid answering the primary question? Brilliant. Chef's kiss.
I'd like those minutes back, please.
kupcho1
Footballguy
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
It is rationalization at best. There really cannot be logical, rational explanation on why one should believe in the illogical, nonrational. At the end of the day we Christians believe "crazy stuff" like resurrection in the literal sense. Trying to tell others they are crazy to not accept crazy is, well crazy. And that is what I find in these types of arguments. Lean into "I cannot explain it! Makes no sense for me to try. But for whatever reason I still believe."
Captain Cranks
Footballguy
Respect.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
While the question of this thread is tough (see next paragraph), even tougher for me is why do I have this strong, pretty much unshakable faith and others do not? It doesn't seem right to me. And I'm not sure if those without this faith are on the short end of the stick, or I am?
@Joe Bryant gave a story of how he drifted away. My story is that when my baby sister died at 10 (I was 16) from CF I tried everything I could to reject God. I tried to shake this belief. I tried hard. I would have kindly regifted it to anyone. But the best I could do was short live anger with God. And kept on believing. I learned all of the logical reasons why not to believe. Still believe. I embraced some of them (as evedient in my posts). Still believe. I concluded that the creation story is an evil set up, that the story of Job is more evil, has anyone ever read the human sacrifice story in Judges? Yet I still believe.
Earlier in this thread I said come Judgment Day God will have some explaining to do. I assume a lot of Christians cringe at best and feel this is hostile to their, our beliefs. But is it? Do we think that we need to come clean with anything to God (or Jesus)? Maybe to ourselve, but to God? Doesn't he already know what is in our hearts? And don't we Christian believe that all things will be revealed? I say this because despite my inability to make sense of things, being highly critical at times of the literal stories I still believe that in the end this will all make sense.
And, if it makes sense simply because I was born with some kind of hereditary "believer" brain defect then it is what it is. But while I recognize the possibility, I don't believe that!
Ilov80s
Footballguy
That doesn't reallt prove anything for me. Just because someone hasn't found something, doesn't mean that it is nonexistant. And didn't science kind of already disprove this a million times over? We thought when people got sick it was because god was punishing them. Then we discovered germs and soap and ways to kill bacteria proving it wasn't an act of god. Every science textbook is filled with things that once fell under the God Gap realm.
Scoresman
Footballguy
I dont know that it's really meant to prove anything. Just explain the phenomenon that whenever there is a gap in science, or something that science cannot yet explain, the tendency for many is to assume god is responsible.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Oh gotcha, yeah that makes total sense now.
I don't think that's a minority view at all. Tons of this in the bible where people are "wrestling" with God or lamenting or crying out and asking for an explanation of "how can this be?".
Even Jesus did this right before he died.
The Death of Jesus
I think what you're describing is how a lot of Christians see it. It's how I see it.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
I think it is how most see it, just not how they would word it. But maybe I'm wrong? The "wrestling" with God is something my pastor is big on. He believes that God appreciates being challenged which seems somewhat counterintuitive to me logically but something that seems to fit with my experience. I mean I spent a good few years challenging God every way possible, and usually not respectfully yet here I am.
Psychopav
Help us, Joebi-Wan Brynobi, you're our only ho
I'm sure you know he was reciting the first lines of Psalm 22, which He and most pious Jews at the time would have had very close familiarity with. The psalm is particularly prescient and ends triumphantly.
I agree that it has strong connotations connecting suffering with salvation, just don't think it means He was "wrestling" the way you are taking it.
Psychopav
Help us, Joebi-Wan Brynobi, you're our only ho
I agree - it's rather obvious, isn't it?
kupcho1
Footballguy
It's obvious that you give Kōhei Uchimura a run for his money. What's not obvious is whether or not you know what lmao stands for.I agree - it's rather obvious, isn't it?
It's obvious that you give Kōhei Uchimura a run for his money. What's not obvious is whether or not you know what lmao stands for.I agree - it's rather obvious, isn't it?
Hi Folks. This is a good discussion. Please don't do the swipes at each other.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
This is fair, and a great response to the OP.
I prefer not accepting crazy premises from the get-go. Just substitute "the universe" or "existence" for God, as in "the universe works in mysterious ways". We have ample proof the universe exists, as well as our ignorance of its limits, so no leap of faith required.
That said, there's no reason the universe needs to be kind, or just. Yet, one can still be hopeful for the future.
rockaction
Footballguy
Do you have proof it exists outside of yourself if you do not believe in God?
I mean, do you really know it exists?
Be very careful with your answer. David Hume pretty much destroyed any certainty we might feel or think we can derive from empiricism.
Snoopy
Footballguy
Pascal's wager
rockaction
Footballguy
I get what you’re saying here, but Pascal’s wager is more of a maximizing your own utility with God tool. It’s a self-interested bet you make in the belief in God and acting accordingly.
There are four quadrants with benefits and punishments attached to each quadrant. Pascal’s wager seeks to maximize our self-interest and really nothing more, if I understand Pascal’s wager correctly.
It says nothing about whether God does or does not exist. It simply says you should believe in God given the blandishments of heaven and the possibility of eternity in hell.
I’m talking about whether your life actually exists with certainty without God.
rockaction
Footballguy
I’m not an expert with the fallibility of empirical certainty, but I do know that it hasn’t been disproven yet. Try as one might, one hammers one’s head against a brick wall.
It was a nasty thing Hume did in the 18th century and humanity hasn’t really recovered.
It was a nasty thing Hume did in the 18th century and humanity hasn’t really recovered.
rockaction
Footballguy
All things without God are simply beliefs in the unknowable. Now that’s irony.
And that is how I find myself. That is my own personal moment where I want to believe in God (I do not know if I do). This is how you get there intellectually (for me and a few others). That there is nothing—nothing—certain without God. You can’t even define a word without God. Life becomes Babylon in every way.
And that is how I find myself. That is my own personal moment where I want to believe in God (I do not know if I do). This is how you get there intellectually (for me and a few others). That there is nothing—nothing—certain without God. You can’t even define a word without God. Life becomes Babylon in every way.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
In as much we can prove/know anything outside our own experience/consciousness, sure. There's far more compelling evidence than supernatural alternatives, at the minimum.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
The problem with Pascal's wager is it is not a coin flip question.
I means if you believe there is no god or gods then being correct or wrong is binary. Probably a loaded coin such that the odds are nothing like 50-50, but still a binary choice. But, if you believe in a god you still need to believe in the correct one. Considering that you are trying to hedge against a wraithful god that is going to send those who guess wrong to hell, I don't think there are very good odds of getting this correct. Maybe for this particular mathematician an infinitisbly small chance is still greater than zero, but it is still approaching zero. If your odds are this close to zero of making a difference, why bother?
ETA: Yes, I know that this was not really an argument to believe, but most of those that I have heard reference it believe that it was. (Not saying you - Snoopy.)
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rockaction
Footballguy
That’s the whole point of the wager and his exercise. I mean, you’ve summed it up nicely, but we should bet on God because an eternity in bliss is worth the bad bet. That’s what he was saying.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Always struck me as silly, as there is no way a forced belief would trick an omniscient creator. Either one believes, or they don't.
rockaction
Footballguy
That’s radically different from what I’m asking. I’m asking if you know that we exist without deriving our existence from God.
rockaction
Footballguy
And I’ll give up the ghost here because people are going to make Terminal’s argument repeatedly. And it’s a good one. It just doesn’t answer my question, which is “How can you be sure that things outside of your thoughts and body exist without a belief in God?”
It’s just the limits of empiricism and I think we’re going for different things with this thread. But it’s relevant and I just wanted to say it because we were jumping to typical internet non-believer criticisms of God, which is fine, it’s just not what I think the thread was going for either.
It’s just the limits of empiricism and I think we’re going for different things with this thread. But it’s relevant and I just wanted to say it because we were jumping to typical internet non-believer criticisms of God, which is fine, it’s just not what I think the thread was going for either.
rockaction
Footballguy
Pascal was probably hoping to appease the authorities and also proselytize the laity for them. I’m sure he’d considered what you’re saying. He was, uh, pretty smaht.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Blissful eternity is worth more than anything. But if the odds are a million/billion/zillion to one it is even possible, and the time/effort to practice religion negatively impacts the far more likely reality of a finite existence, seems like a bad bet.
And as I said above, feigned belief for secondary immortal gain surely won't go over with the Creator.
rockaction
Footballguy
No it won’t. You’re right. People making that bet who can’t find belief can hope for grace for good words and deeds. That’s about it. But see my above post about Pascal. I’m not sure this was an intellectually satisfying position for him, either. I think he knew your criticism. I think he knew it deeply.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
I don't understand your point then, other than semantics. I definitely do not believe in God. I am equally certain I exist.
rockaction
Footballguy
And like I said, GB, I think that’s the whole point of the wager. That it’s a horrible, no good, zillion-to-one bet.
rockaction
Footballguy
Are you certain anything outside you exists? I mean, you know the universe exists?
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
Maybe I'm wrong, but I am under the impression that Blaise Pascal was purposely creating a logical fallacy to demonstrate that faith and belief cannot be logically argued? Is that wrong? Or at least up for debate?
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