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Colin Kaepernick Thread and related anthem kneeling issues/news (3 Viewers)

Ramblin Wreck said:
  Stand for the anthem (unity message) and focus on the real issues.  Lose the small battle and win the big war should be the goal.
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For months now I've tended to agree with your position on this. But here's the problem: the reason that Kaepernick began this in the first place was that he wanted to bring attention to the issue, because, in his opinion, white America wasn't paying enough attention. A lot of black people believe that whites watch the news, see another shooting of a black man, and say to themselves, "bad, but not my problem." They want it to be YOUR problem. And the only way they can do that is get in your face.

Now that they have gotten in your face, and gotten your attention, your response is, "stop getting in my face. Then we can discuss the issues." But they know, deep down, that the minute they stop getting in your face, you'll go right back to "not my problem." Which is why it would be stupid for them to stop getting in your face.

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
 Stand for the anthem (unity message) and focus on the real issues.  Lose the small battle and win the big war should be the goal.
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timschochet said:
For months now I've tended to agree with your position on this. But here's the problem: the reason that Kaepernick began this in the first place was that he wanted to bring attention to the issue, because, in his opinion, white America wasn't paying enough attention. A lot of black people believe that whites watch the news, see another shooting of a black man, and say to themselves, "bad, but not my problem." They want it to be YOUR problem. And the only way they can do that is get in your face.

Now that they have gotten in your face, and gotten your attention, your response is, "stop getting in my face. Then we can discuss the issues." But they know, deep down, that the minute they stop getting in your face, you'll go right back to "not my problem." Which is why it would be stupid for them to stop getting in your face.
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I think my favorite part of this is RW putting on this facade about now wanting the focus to be on the real issues when he's firmly in the "not my problem" camp.

 
By the way, it should be stressed again and again that during all of the peaceful Civil Rights protests of the 1950s and 1960s, (the Rosa Parks bus boycott, the marches to Selma and Birmingham, the lunch counter sit-ins, etc.) the most common response among non-southern white people, particularly conservatives, was not, "Oh this is terrible, Martin Luther King is a hero, we've got to help support his cause, etc.". The most common response was, "Why should this concern me? I'm not a bigot. This isn't my problem. Why are they being so disruptive?"

 
timschochet said:
For months now I've tended to agree with your position on this. But here's the problem: the reason that Kaepernick began this in the first place was that he wanted to bring attention to the issue, because, in his opinion, white America wasn't paying enough attention. A lot of black people believe that whites watch the news, see another shooting of a black man, and say to themselves, "bad, but not my problem." They want it to be YOUR problem. And the only way they can do that is get in your face.

Now that they have gotten in your face, and gotten your attention, your response is, "stop getting in my face. Then we can discuss the issues." But they know, deep down, that the minute they stop getting in your face, you'll go right back to "not my problem." Which is why it would be stupid for them to stop getting in your face.
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But kneeling for the anthem isn't getting in anyone's face about police brutality.  Everyone that talks about it now is making it a Trump vs. players and now Owners/NFL vs players thing.  I agree with you the message needs to get out there (even though I believe most NFL fans are against police brutality) but anthem thing isn't doing it anymore, IMO.  While I agree Trump shouldn't be calling players SOBs or demanding anything about the players/anthem I think that issue is much less important than police brutality.  The guys kneeling for that (Reid, Jenkins, etc...) need to find a different way to deliver their message so it's not lost.

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
But kneeling for the anthem isn't getting in anyone's face about police brutality.  Everyone that talks about it now is making it a Trump vs. players and now Owners/NFL vs players thing.  I agree with you the message needs to get out there (even though I believe most NFL fans are against police brutality) but anthem thing isn't doing it anymore, IMO.  While I agree Trump shouldn't be calling players SOBs or demanding anything about the players/anthem I think that issue is much less important than police brutality.  The guys kneeling for that (Reid, Jenkins, etc...) need to find a different way to deliver their message so it's not lost.
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OK, come up with an alternative way of getting people's attention that you would prefer.

 
Rambling Wreck, LeBron James, among others, has made the point that there is NO form of protest by black people that won't be complained about. And that the only way for white conservatives to stop complaining about black people is if they all just shut up.

Do you find any legitimacy to this viewpoint?

 
timschochet said:
OK, come up with an alternative way of getting people's attention that you would prefer.
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Not sure I can solve it but here are a few examples. 

I posted the Kenny Still link above.  That's a great start from a positive angle.  More players should do this.  And the media should give it a lot more attention when they do.  A lot more.

If they want to do it from a negative angle, go down to the police stations and city hall and protest away.  NFL players start doing that and the media will eat it up and give them all the air time they want.

Hell they just need a Pro Bowl caliber player and a 60 minutes or 20/20 type show would give them plenty of air time.

 
timschochet said:
Rambling Wreck, LeBron James, among others, has made the point that there is NO form of protest by black people that won't be complained about. And that the only way for white conservatives to stop complaining about black people is if they all just shut up.

Do you find any legitimacy to this viewpoint?
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People complain about protests all the time.  I see at least one a week.  Always some supporters and always some complainers.  

Unless someone is a big supporter of the particular cause they will complain about the inconvenience no matter how slight.  It has nothing to do with race.

 
timschochet said:
Rambling Wreck, LeBron James, among others, has made the point that there is NO form of protest by black people that won't be complained about. And that the only way for white conservatives to stop complaining about black people is if they all just shut up.

Do you find any legitimacy to this viewpoint?
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He's right.  People will complain about anything so certainly protesting will get complaints.

Do you think LeBron will protest when the NBA season starts despite rules existing telling him how he has to conduct himself during the anthem?   Do you think LeBron is a powerful enough person that his voice could carry a lot of weight on these issues?

What positive outcome do you see occurring from the back and forth nonsense between players and Trump regarding the Anthem?

 
timschochet said:
Rambling Wreck, LeBron James, among others, has made the point that there is NO form of protest by black people that won't be complained about. And that the only way for white conservatives to stop complaining about black people is if they all just shut up.

Do you find any legitimacy to this viewpoint?
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Trevor Noah brought up the same issue when Kaep first started protesting when he had Tomi Lahren on The Daily Show,

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/tv/la-et-st-trevor-noah-tomi-lahren-20161201-htmlstory.html

When the conversation turned to Kaepernick’s ongoing protests, Lahren explained that she just doesn’t believe that the quarterback kneeling during the national anthem is “the right way” for him to take a stand. 

“When people say that, I’m always fascinated,” Noah said. “What is the right way? So here is a black man in America who says I don’t know how to get a message across. If I march in the streets, people say I’m a thug. If I go out and I protest, people say that it’s a riot. If I bend down on one knee, then it’s not [the right way].

“What is the right way?” Noah continued. “That is something that I’ve always wanted to know. What is the right way for a black person to get attention in America?”

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
Not sure I can solve it but here are a few examples. 

I posted the Kenny Still link above.  That's a great start from a positive angle.  More players should do this.  And the media should give it a lot more attention when they do.  A lot more.

If they want to do it from a negative angle, go down to the police stations and city hall and protest away.  NFL players start doing that and the media will eat it up and give them all the air time they want.

Hell they just need a Pro Bowl caliber player and a 60 minutes or 20/20 type show would give them plenty of air time.
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The Kenny Stills thing might get a minute at the end of an NFL today show. Nobody's watching.

The other ideas you mentioned might gain more attention, but again they wouldn't be in your face, and they wouldn't piss you off. That's their goal. They want to DISRUPT you, because they believe their lives are disrupted.

I don't see a lot of options for peaceful disruption here. If you don't like the anthem protests, they could block streets. Or they could starting burning #### down. Would either of those options be preferable?

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
Not sure I can solve it but here are a few examples. 

I posted the Kenny Still link above.  That's a great start from a positive angle.  More players should do this.  And the media should give it a lot more attention when they do.  A lot more.

If they want to do it from a negative angle, go down to the police stations and city hall and protest away.  NFL players start doing that and the media will eat it up and give them all the air time they want.

Hell they just need a Pro Bowl caliber player and a 60 minutes or 20/20 type show would give them plenty of air time.
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There are a lot of players that do great things for their community and they have been doing it for years.  Most people don't care even if it does make the news.  I admit I do the same thing many times when I see them.  People see it, say it's cool and go on with their day.  Kaepernick is also one of those players doing a lot for the community and nationally.

 
timschochet said:
The Kenny Stills thing might get a minute at the end of an NFL today show. Nobody's watching.

The other ideas you mentioned might gain more attention, but again they wouldn't be in your face, and they wouldn't piss you off. That's their goal. They want to DISRUPT you, because they believe their lives are disrupted.

I don't see a lot of options for peaceful disruption here. If you don't like the anthem protests, they could block streets. Or they could starting burning #### down. Would either of those options be preferable?
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The Stills thing is a problem with the media.  The media wants garbage.

If the problem is police brutality, shouldn't they be pissing off the cops?  Disrupting them?  Getting in their face?   It's really not a racial thing because the majority of white people do not support police brutality or unequal treatment.  

I guess we'll see where the anthem thing goes and what improvements get made.

 
jonessed said:
People complain about protests all the time.  I see at least one a week.  Always some supporters and always some complainers.  

Unless someone is a big supporter of the particular cause they will complain about the inconvenience no matter how slight.  It has nothing to do with race.
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:lmao:

OK. No offense, but no matter what the subject is, if a charge of racism is involved, I can always count on you to come in and deny it. Are you related to Jeff Sessions, by any chance?

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
The Stills thing is a problem with the media.  The media wants garbage.

If the problem is police brutality, shouldn't they be pissing off the cops?  Disrupting them?  Getting in their face?   It's really not a racial thing because the majority of white people do not support police brutality or unequal treatment.  

I guess we'll see where the anthem thing goes and what improvements get made.
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The bolded is NOT THE POINT. Of course the majority of white people do not support police brutality or unequal treatment. The point is that the majority of white people don't see it as their problem and they don't want to get involved. Colin Kaepernick and Lebron and their friends WANT YOU TO GET INVOLVED. They want this to be YOUR PROBLEM.

 
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Ramblin Wreck said:
The Stills thing is a problem with the media.  The media wants garbage.

If the problem is police brutality, shouldn't they be pissing off the cops?  Disrupting them?  Getting in their face?   It's really not a racial thing because the majority of white people do not support police brutality or unequal treatment.  

I guess we'll see where the anthem thing goes and what improvements get made.
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The media doesn't show what it does for no reason.  They have tons of data that tells them what gets viewers and what doesn't.  That garbage you speak of is what people tune into and talk about most.  If all the happy stories got more attention then they would show them more often but they don't, they don't get talk about for long and they get forgotten.

Maybe it's not just a media problem but a societal problem? 

 
timschochet said:
Your evidence isn't compelling to me. She was careful to write, "If you feel strongly", which creates a caveat. She's not telling people what to do.

Of course they had the right to suspend her anyhow. But it's very stupid, IMO. AT&T is far too big a company to ever be affected by a boycott. And even if they could be affected, this move only increases the boycott. It turns her into a victim. I suppose it makes some Trump fans out there happy, but a lot of people will see this as "shutting the black girl up." Not a good look.
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No, I think the Cowboy fans -- the paying customers -- need to pick up this fight. Don't look to Dez or Dak. YOU do it.
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A more powerful statement is if you stop watching and buying their merchandise.
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If the rationale behind JJ's stance is keeping the fanbase happy, make him see that he is underestimated how all of his fanbase feels
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Or, how about not patronizing the advertisers who support the Cowboys?
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Those are all from her Tim. It is inarguable what she did. Wordsmith all you want it will just make you look foolish. 

 
jonessed said:
People complain about protests all the time.  I see at least one a week.  Always some supporters and always some complainers.  

Unless someone is a big supporter of the particular cause they will complain about the inconvenience no matter how slight.  It has nothing to do with race.
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What inconvenience are the players causing?

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
Agreed.  What's more important?  Police brutality or worrying about Trump's opinion of the flag/anthem?
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Is anyone else sad that we would probably expect completely different answers to the above vs being asked "What's more important?  Police brutality or worrying about the President's opinion of the flag/anthem?"

Personally, I don't think this is an either/or situation.  There's no reason to not protest both, but as I stated earlier in this thread, the players/protesters need to get their #### together because Trump and his mindless followers are somehow taking over the narrative and twisted it into the biggest "look squirrel !!!!!" event ever.

 
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timschochet said:
This is not correct. It started as a way to bring attention to police mistreatment and brutality of young black men.
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That was brought to attention a long time ago.  It is on the news and talked about all the time.  Kneeling does nothing on a Monday morning in Detroit of Chicago.

A cop in Detroit just beat the crap out of a 16 year old kid at Meijers on video.   The cop was also black so it did not get any coverage but he clubbed him good in the face for resisting. The kid should have said "Wait..football players want you to stop doing this"

 
timschochet said:
Ramblin Wreck said:
What positive outcome do you see occurring from the back and forth nonsense between players and Trump regarding the Anthem?
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Well, THIS is the question we should all be asking. I don't know.
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How do you not know Tim?  The obvious answer is NOTHING.  He needs to be ignored and the players need to make clear their goal and what they are protesting and make sure the message stays on topic.

 
For any of you guys who have Sirius, I urge you to spend some time today listening to Urban View, Channel 126. They're focused on this issue it's a very different point of view that we're getting here. 

 
Da Guru said:
That was brought to attention a long time ago.  It is on the news and talked about all the time.  Kneeling does nothing on a Monday morning in Detroit of Chicago.

A cop in Detroit just beat the crap out of a 16 year old kid at Meijers on video.   The cop was also black so it did not get any coverage but he clubbed him good in the face for resisting. The kid should have said "Wait..football players want you to stop doing this"
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Not enough obviously.

And Kaep arguably brought more attention with his kneeling to the issue than all the BLM protests combined. At least Time Magazine thought so, naming his among the 100 Most Influential People in the world for his protests last year.

 
Before Trump, only a few players kneeled.

Since Trump's "SOB" speech, there have been at least 30-40 players protesting at every game. Some are doing it because they believe in Kaepernick's cause, some are doing it because they're just showing support for Kaepernick, and others are doing it just to protest Trump.

BTW, I think we're underestimating how many players are protesting Trump because Trump said that player safety is ruining the game. When you openly call for the kind of dangerous hits that cause brain damage, you're not going to find many players who agree with you.

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
You can see why bringing up a stupid Sudan comparison in this thread is a stupid level of trolling, right?
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It's not trolling.  It's an extreme example intended to create an "aha!" moment in the reader.  As in "aha! That's true! The fact that there are more important causes doesn't negate the reasonable actions taken in defense of or opposition to any other given cause."

[responding to this post would be an appropriate use of the word "oh"]

 
Henry Ford said:
It's not trolling.  It's an extreme example intended to create an "aha!" moment in the reader.  As in "aha! That's true! The fact that there are more important causes doesn't negate the reasonable actions taken in defense of or opposition to any other given cause."

[responding to this post would be an appropriate use of the word "oh"]
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Who said it did that made you get so excited to create a false equivalence?

 
Hawkeye21 said:
Does the NFL have a choice on what the networks show on TV?  I think the only thing the NFL could've done was told all teams to remain in the locker room until after the anthem.  They could have also not had the anthem at all before games.
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I think the NFL has a lot of sway over what the networks show. 

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
Who said it did that made you get so excited to create a false equivalence?
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Ramblin Wreck said:
The 2nd part of the protest has selfishly overtaken the 1st part because it wasn't well thought out whatsoever.  Booger McFarland on ESPN gets it.

timschochet said:
I don't think the 1st part was well thought out either, though that doesn't make it any less worthy.

Ramblin Wreck said:
Agreed.  What's more important?  Police brutality or worrying about Trump's opinion of the flag/anthem?
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I don't know.  Some guy.

 
Cjw_55106 said:
I think the NFL has a lot of sway over what the networks show. 
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I honestly don't know.  The NFL would need a producer in the room telling them what to show then.  That, or they tell them how much of what they want shown on their broadcast each game. 

 
Henry Ford said:
What inconvenience are the players causing?
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I think it’s less a true inconvenience and more a perceived annoyance.  Some don’t want politics in their football, some see it as disrespectful to a particular group, some have an issue with millionaire grievances, etc.

Certainly, some of those people will have race-based issues.  It’s a race-based protest after all.  I don’t believe that’s the bulk of it though.  In my experience protests generate a fair amount of disgruntled people even if they don’t have strong opinions on the subject matter.

A lot of people just like to complain.

 
timschochet said:
:lmao:

OK. No offense, but no matter what the subject is, if a charge of racism is involved, I can always count on you to come in and deny it. Are you related to Jeff Sessions, by any chance?
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I try not to jump to racism right away, you do the opposite.  

I’m OK with people having different world views.  

 
The Commish said:
Is anyone else sad that we would probably expect completely different answers to the above vs being asked "What's more important?  Police brutality or worrying about the President's opinion of the flag/anthem?"

Personally, I don't think this is an either/or situation.  There's no reason to not protest both, but as I stated earlier in this thread, the players/protesters need to get their #### together because Trump and his mindless followers are somehow taking over the narrative and twisted it into the biggest "look squirrel !!!!!" event ever.
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So basically what you are saying is Trump and his "mindless followers" have outsmarted you and the MSM.  Got it.

The MSM never does the "look squirrel" thing when it comes to reporting newsworthy items about say....Obama, or Hillary right?

 
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