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Colin Kaepernick Thread and related anthem kneeling issues/news (2 Viewers)

Hawkeye21 said:
This is what is very wrong with our President and all people who believe this.  If you take away people's rights to do just that then this is not longer a free country.  No one will argue that it's not a good thing to disrespect our country but you can not force people not too.  That is not freedom.
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Nobody has lost their rights to protest the anthem or the flag.  The NFL is a private entity. They have, and continue to be able to, set their own guidelines.  The players are free to protest within those guidelines while at work and outside of them in their free time.

 
jonessed said:
Nobody has lost their rights to protest the anthem or the flag.  The NFL is a private entity. They have, and continue to be able to, set their own guidelines.  The players are free to protest within those guidelines while at work and outside of them in their free time.
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Agree but the NFL didn't feel the need to have a guideline until the president stuck his nose into it.

 
jonessed said:
Nobody has lost their rights to protest the anthem or the flag.  The NFL is a private entity. They have, and continue to be able to, set their own guidelines.  The players are free to protest within those guidelines while at work and outside of them in their free time.
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yep.  That is the end all end all.  for me anyway.

 
jonessed said:
Nobody has lost their rights to protest the anthem or the flag.  The NFL is a private entity. They have, and continue to be able to, set their own guidelines.  The players are free to protest within those guidelines while at work and outside of them in their free time.
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Not without the consent and agreement of the players union under the current CBA, they don't. Their right to set their own guidelines, particularly regarding punishing players kneeling during the anthem is not unfettered.

 
squistion said:
Not without the consent and agreement of the players union under the current CBA, they don't. Their right to set their own guidelines, particularly regarding punishing players kneeling during the anthem is not unfettered.
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They have a very broad ability to discipline in order to protect their brand from what I can tell.  How they handle this particular issue will be interesting to see play out.

 
jonessed said:
They have a very broad ability to discipline in order to protect their brand from what I can tell.  How they handle this particular issue will be interesting to see play out.
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Which doesn't currently include punishing players for silently kneeling or protesting during the anthem. Goodell admitted that last year when Kaep first started his protest. Under the current CBA they can not discipline players who respectfully dissent during the anthem.

 
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jonessed said:
Nobody has lost their rights to protest the anthem or the flag.  The NFL is a private entity. They have, and continue to be able to, set their own guidelines.  The players are free to protest within those guidelines while at work and outside of them in their free time.
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Never said that.  My issue is with a President that encourages it.  The NFL can do what they want, I don't have a problem with it.  I'm not sure why people can't see the issue with this.

 
Hawkeye21 said:
With a President that is telling the people that they must stand for the anthem.  He is telling people that they can not disrespect our country, flag and anthem.  That's not right at all and that's the issue.
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Trump has a unique way of communicating in some of the worst ways possible, but it’s not like the BLM movement has been off grounds for presidents and politicians. I think at this point it’s fair game.  

 
jonessed said:
Trump has a unique way of communicating in some of the worst ways possible, but it’s not like the BLM movement has been off grounds for presidents and politicians. I think at this point it’s fair game.  
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What's fair game?  Telling all Americans that they can not disrespect the country will never be alright.  He has basically told people "Love it or leave it."

 
Hawkeye21 said:
What's fair game?  Telling all Americans that they can not disrespect the country will never be alright.  He has basically told people "Love it or leave it."
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The guy is an ####### and lacks any sense of tact, but speaking about why he feels it’s important to stand for the anthem and respect the flag is something I don’t have a problem with.  I also don’t have a problem with people telling him to pack sand.

 
jonessed said:
The guy is an ####### and lacks any sense of tact, but speaking about why he feels it’s important to stand for the anthem and respect the flag is something I don’t have a problem with.  I also don’t have a problem with people telling him to pack sand.
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That's good.  My worry is that he either truly believes that people must respect the flag or be punished or just says it to get his supporters all excited.  What scares me is that there are many Trump supporters who proclaim they are patriots but in fact are nationalists and they really do believe that people must stand and respect the flag or leave the country.  These people feel more empowered than ever before because of Trump.

 
Hawkeye21 said:
That's good.  My worry is that he either truly believes that people must respect the flag or be punished or just says it to get his supporters all excited.  What scares me is that there are many Trump supporters who proclaim they are patriots but in fact are nationalists and they really do believe that people must stand and respect the flag or leave the country.  These people feel more empowered than ever before because of Trump.
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I’m not sure why that matters.  

 
jonessed said:
I’m not sure why that matters.  
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With the topic in this specific thread I'm not sure it matters but with the overall condition of our country and what it will be going forward I think it does.  It's not a good direction to have our country going in.  People should not stand for the flag out of fear but because they want to and are proud to.  I'm afraid it's gradually turning into doing it more out of fear.

 
Hawkeye21 said:
With the topic in this specific thread I'm not sure it matters but with the overall condition of our country and what it will be going forward I think it does.  It's not a good direction to have our country going in.  People should not stand for the flag out of fear but because they want to and are proud to.  I'm afraid it's gradually turning into doing it more out of fear.
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I don’t believe they should stand out of fear either.  If you don’t want to stand, don’t stand.

 
jonessed said:
I don’t believe they should stand out of fear either.  If you don’t want to stand, don’t stand.
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Exactly but it seems that our President no longer encourages that.  I honestly feel that Trump is very bad for our country.  This is for a different thread though.

 
jonessed said:
The guy is an ####### and lacks any sense of tact, but speaking about why he feels it’s important to stand for the anthem and respect the flag is something I don’t have a problem with.  I also don’t have a problem with people telling him to pack sand.
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It's not about him thinking it's important. It's about him ####### with ppl who don't. Because you can't. do. that.

 
squistion said:
Which doesn't currently include punishing players for silently kneeling or protesting during the anthem. Goodell admitted that last year when Kaep first started his protest. Under the current CBA they can not discipline players who respectfully dissent during the anthem.
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Is this true? Could we see a link? I now realize we must question everything you post. Please dont post to a tweet from somebody else as your link. Also please dont link to an article where somebody asked him if Kaepernick was getting suspended and he said no. I would like to see a link where goodell admitted that under the current CBA they cant discipline players for kneeling. Not saying it isn't true, just want to read it from a reliable honest source.

 
parasaurolophus said:
Is this true? Could we see a link? I now realize we must question everything you post. Please dont post to a tweet from somebody else as your link. Also please dont link to an article where somebody asked him if Kaepernick was getting suspended and he said no. I would like to see a link where goodell admitted that under the current CBA they cant discipline players for kneeling. Not saying it isn't true, just want to read it from a reliable honest source.
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This is like the 10th time this has been posted in this thread.

He didn't specifically mention the CBA, per se, but it is obvious that was what he was referring to. By saying that it is his right to protest he indirectly admitted that they couldn't discipline players for silently kneeling.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2016/09/07/goodell-doesnt-agree-with-kaepernicks-actions/89958636/

Roger Goodell on Colin Kaepernick: 'We believe very strongly in patriotism in the NFL'

NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell made his first public comments about San Francisco QB Colin Kaepernick’s one-man protest.

Kaepernick has sat or taken a knee before every 49ers preseason game this season. Last week, teammate Eric Reid joined him in the protest as did Seattle Seahawks cornerback Jeremy Lane in his game against the Oakland Raiders.

There is no rule in the NFL saying players must stand during the national anthem.

Goodell’s comments, according to NFL Network, were as follows:

"Well my personal thoughts are... I support our players when they want to see change in society, and we don't live in a perfect society. We live in an imperfect society. On the other hand, we believe very strongly in patriotism in the NFL. I personally believe very strongly in that. I think it's important to have respect for our country, for our flag, for the people who make our country better; for law enforcement, and for our military who are out fighting for our freedoms and our ideals.

"These are all important things for us, and that moment is a very important moment. So, I don't necessarily agree with what he is doing. We encourage our players to be respectful in that time and I like to think of it as a moment where we can unite as a country. And that's what we need more, and that's what I think football does - it unites our country. So I would like to see us focusing on our similarities and trying to bring people together.

"Players have a platform, and it's his right to do that. We encourage them to be respectful and it's important for them to do that.

"I think it's important if they see things they want to change in society, and clearly we have things that can get better in society, and we should get better. But we have to choose respectful ways of doing that so that we can achieve the outcomes we ultimately want and do it with the values and ideals that make our country great."

 
Is this true? Could we see a link?
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The Collective Bargaining Agreement does not specifically address the anthem, but the Game Operations Manual (excerpt here) says the following:

"The National Anthem must be played prior to every NFL game, and all players must be on the sideline for the National Anthem. During the National Anthem, players on the field and bench area should stand at attention, face the flag, hold helmets in their left hand, and refrain from talking...


Failure to be on the field by the start of the National Anthem may result in discipline, such as fines, suspensions, and/or the forfeiture of draft choice(s) for violations of the above, including first offenses."

It would be very problematic to use this clause to punish players, as it only says that players "should" stand (and it also implies that teams can only be disciplined for failure to be on the field, not for any of the other things mentioned). It would also be problematic because this "rule" is not part of the CBA, so the union would certainly fight any attempts by Goodell to punish players. Also, the rule is so vague that it would not prevent players from protesting in other ways (i.e., fist in the air, kneeling before the anthem, etc.), so any attempt to punish would likely result in even more protests.

 
jonessed said:
You seem to be reading into his comments quite a bit.
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Not at all, He chose his words carefully, which is why you won't see any players disciplined by the NFL for kneeling this season. And if any are by a specific team, the blowback will make the current controversy seem mild in comparison with the players union immediately taking them to court.

 
squistion said:
This is like the 10th time this has been posted in this thread.

He didn't specifically mention the CBA, per se, but it is obvious that was what he was referring to. By saying that it is his right to protest he indirectly admitted that they couldn't discipline players for silently kneeling.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2016/09/07/goodell-doesnt-agree-with-kaepernicks-actions/89958636/

Roger Goodell on Colin Kaepernick: 'We believe very strongly in patriotism in the NFL'

NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell made his first public comments about San Francisco QB Colin Kaepernick’s one-man protest.

Kaepernick has sat or taken a knee before every 49ers preseason game this season. Last week, teammate Eric Reid joined him in the protest as did Seattle Seahawks cornerback Jeremy Lane in his game against the Oakland Raiders.

There is no rule in the NFL saying players must stand during the national anthem.

Goodell’s comments, according to NFL Network, were as follows:

"Well my personal thoughts are... I support our players when they want to see change in society, and we don't live in a perfect society. We live in an imperfect society. On the other hand, we believe very strongly in patriotism in the NFL. I personally believe very strongly in that. I think it's important to have respect for our country, for our flag, for the people who make our country better; for law enforcement, and for our military who are out fighting for our freedoms and our ideals.

"These are all important things for us, and that moment is a very important moment. So, I don't necessarily agree with what he is doing. We encourage our players to be respectful in that time and I like to think of it as a moment where we can unite as a country. And that's what we need more, and that's what I think football does - it unites our country. So I would like to see us focusing on our similarities and trying to bring people together.

"Players have a platform, and it's his right to do that. We encourage them to be respectful and it's important for them to do that.

"I think it's important if they see things they want to change in society, and clearly we have things that can get better in society, and we should get better. But we have to choose respectful ways of doing that so that we can achieve the outcomes we ultimately want and do it with the values and ideals that make our country great."
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Ok cool, thanks for admitting that you made it up when you said "goodell admitted that under the current CBA they cant discipline players for kneeling."

 
parasaurolophus said:
Ok cool, thanks for admitting that you made it up when you said "goodell admitted that under the current CBA they cant discipline players for kneeling."
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I didn't make it up, that is what he essentially said, to quote

"Players have a platform, and it's his right to do that."

If it is his right, Goodell or owners can not discipline players under the current CBA. What other interpretation do you have for those comments? You don't think Goodell wouldn't have stopped Kaep before the season began if he was allowed to?

 
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squistion said:
I didn't make it up, that is what he essentially said, to quote

"Players have a platform, and it's his right to do that."
If it is his right, Goodell or owners can not discipline players under the current CBA. What other interpretation do you have for those comments? You don't think Goodell wouldn't have stopped Kaep before the season began if he was allowed to?
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I hesitate to interject in what looks like an ongoing debate here but this was just released by the NFL yesterday.
"The NFL has no plans to mandate players stand for the national anthem, a league spokesman told NFL.com Wednesday" ..."There has been no change in the current policy regarding the anthem. "  

I don't see how you could fine or otherwise discipline someone for something not mandated.
 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000860129/article/nfl-no-mandate-for-players-to-stand-during-national-anthem

 
HellToupee said:
and to think I stood up for you today when it was posted that you were a rape apologist because of your posts about Roman Polanski
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That’s right!  The mature 13-year old.  Man, that was awful.

 
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