I think the admissions people actually believe that.
I'm 100% convinced that they're wrong.
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College Admissions Questions (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter NewlyRetired
- Start date
I'm 100% convinced that they're wrong.
TennesseeJed
Footballguy
I am not sure if this will be helpful or not, but I am not sure how much longer I will hang around, and I thought I would share some of the things we did during the college application process that might help someone down the line - knowing that every student's experience is somewhat unique and so this is not a one-size-fits all strategy. We used the same approach with both of our kids - one is at a mid-tier large state university, and our younger daughter who just was accepted to Vanderbilt. But, I would say, most of the advice is more applicable to students who are looking to get into a more selective college (say <25% acceptance rate).
First, we had a general strategy that was posted above, and it boils down to 3 things:
1. Get good grades, in rigorous classes
2. Find a passion, and get involved
3. Be nice!
For us, the application process started in the Freshman year. And, there is really nothing you can do as a freshman to get into any college, but that is where you can start laying the foundation. Grades are important - and when you apply to colleges in the fall of your senior year, freshman grade are 1/3 of your total GPA. So, staying on top of grades, and really just building good study habits as a freshman is a good long-term investment. You will also want to see what tract your student is on - particularly with math and English - are they at the right level to take the advanced courses colleges will want to see? Maintaining good grades also ensures that you can stay on the tract.
The second thing we encouraged our kids to do as Freshmen - explore their passions. Find a club or activity that piques their interest. It does not have to be an "academic" club/activity, and it does not even have to be associated with school. If they find something they enjoy, it makes their participation easier. For our younger daughter - her freshman year was the COVID year, and she spent 2/3 of the year at home. But, fortunately, one club she wanted to join - Technology Students Association - had regular zoom meetings, and she got involved, and parlayed that to a junior officer position for her sophomore year, and she continued to build on that.
We did our first college tour for our younger daughter in the summer after freshman year, but really that was a function of having done several tours for our older daughter, and wanting to do something that summer with the younger daughter, and just to give her a taste of what she could look forward to in the process. I don't know that she got anything meaningful in the self-guided tour (thanks covid) - but, it did kind of open her eyes to the possibilities.
NEXT - Grades
First, we had a general strategy that was posted above, and it boils down to 3 things:
1. Get good grades, in rigorous classes
2. Find a passion, and get involved
3. Be nice!
For us, the application process started in the Freshman year. And, there is really nothing you can do as a freshman to get into any college, but that is where you can start laying the foundation. Grades are important - and when you apply to colleges in the fall of your senior year, freshman grade are 1/3 of your total GPA. So, staying on top of grades, and really just building good study habits as a freshman is a good long-term investment. You will also want to see what tract your student is on - particularly with math and English - are they at the right level to take the advanced courses colleges will want to see? Maintaining good grades also ensures that you can stay on the tract.
The second thing we encouraged our kids to do as Freshmen - explore their passions. Find a club or activity that piques their interest. It does not have to be an "academic" club/activity, and it does not even have to be associated with school. If they find something they enjoy, it makes their participation easier. For our younger daughter - her freshman year was the COVID year, and she spent 2/3 of the year at home. But, fortunately, one club she wanted to join - Technology Students Association - had regular zoom meetings, and she got involved, and parlayed that to a junior officer position for her sophomore year, and she continued to build on that.
We did our first college tour for our younger daughter in the summer after freshman year, but really that was a function of having done several tours for our older daughter, and wanting to do something that summer with the younger daughter, and just to give her a taste of what she could look forward to in the process. I don't know that she got anything meaningful in the self-guided tour (thanks covid) - but, it did kind of open her eyes to the possibilities.
NEXT - Grades
TennesseeJed
Footballguy
Grades
One of the questions I heard at many of the college tours - what matters more - GPA or weighted GPA?
The answer, unfortunately, is both.
Colleges absolutely look at the unweighted GPA - and when they release stats on admitted students, they are using the unweighted GPA. But, they also consider course rigor - but on their own terms. They will look at the student's transcript, and apply a uniform weighting process to all the classes - because every high school is different in how they weight classes, colleges use their own system to ensure some uniformity.
What colleges want to see is a high unweighted GPA, and a student who has taken a challenging course load - relative to what is offered at a particular school. So, if your school offers AP Lang, and AP Lit, and your student is taking Honors English instead - that will hurt. Conversely, taking AP Lang, and getting a C will also hurt. So, finding the right level for your student to be successful is kind of the sweet spot for their long-term success.
I talked earlier about the importance of Freshman grades - but I do think there is a strong case to be made for a student who struggles a little with the transition from middle school to high school, but then shows improvement - so its not a situation where a slow start kills any chances at a selective college - just be ready to tell that narrative.
Extracurriculars
One of the big questions around applications is the importance of extracurricular activities. The University my older daughter is at does not consider them at all in the application process, they look for a specific academic profile a make admissions decision on that alone. (I know one of the admissions counselors at the school). This is probably true at most large state universities - other than the more selective schools.
But, for the selective schools, extracurricular activities are an important part of the application. My experience from all of the admissions presentations I sat through - schools are looking for depth, not breadth. I think the way to think about it is this - the schools are looking for students who are likely to enhance the student life experience by active participation in the myriad of student-run organizations on campuses. When they see people who are deeply involved in high school, I suspect there is a correlation to those students being deeply involved in college.
I do think that extracurricular activities can be anything - and specifically does not need to be academic, nor even school-related. But, what your student wants to show is their participation levels, and leadership in said activity. And, leadership is not confined to elected positions. It is mostly being able to show contributions that go beyond superficial involvement.
This all goes back to finding something you student is passionate about - and then getting involved. Building that resume and involvement helps if they start at the bottom in their freshman year, but again, nothing prevents a student from getting involved as a sophomore or junior either.
Aside from general extracurriculars - I do think being involved in some community service helps on the application.
For my younger daughter - her primary club was TSA, and she gradually increased her leadership roles until she was president as a senior, and also a state officer. She also participated in horse shows, and she "cheated" the system a little by being involved in a couple of honor societies - because the primary output from those societies - required community service hours.
NEXT - Recommendations and the Application Process
One of the questions I heard at many of the college tours - what matters more - GPA or weighted GPA?
The answer, unfortunately, is both.
Colleges absolutely look at the unweighted GPA - and when they release stats on admitted students, they are using the unweighted GPA. But, they also consider course rigor - but on their own terms. They will look at the student's transcript, and apply a uniform weighting process to all the classes - because every high school is different in how they weight classes, colleges use their own system to ensure some uniformity.
What colleges want to see is a high unweighted GPA, and a student who has taken a challenging course load - relative to what is offered at a particular school. So, if your school offers AP Lang, and AP Lit, and your student is taking Honors English instead - that will hurt. Conversely, taking AP Lang, and getting a C will also hurt. So, finding the right level for your student to be successful is kind of the sweet spot for their long-term success.
I talked earlier about the importance of Freshman grades - but I do think there is a strong case to be made for a student who struggles a little with the transition from middle school to high school, but then shows improvement - so its not a situation where a slow start kills any chances at a selective college - just be ready to tell that narrative.
Extracurriculars
One of the big questions around applications is the importance of extracurricular activities. The University my older daughter is at does not consider them at all in the application process, they look for a specific academic profile a make admissions decision on that alone. (I know one of the admissions counselors at the school). This is probably true at most large state universities - other than the more selective schools.
But, for the selective schools, extracurricular activities are an important part of the application. My experience from all of the admissions presentations I sat through - schools are looking for depth, not breadth. I think the way to think about it is this - the schools are looking for students who are likely to enhance the student life experience by active participation in the myriad of student-run organizations on campuses. When they see people who are deeply involved in high school, I suspect there is a correlation to those students being deeply involved in college.
I do think that extracurricular activities can be anything - and specifically does not need to be academic, nor even school-related. But, what your student wants to show is their participation levels, and leadership in said activity. And, leadership is not confined to elected positions. It is mostly being able to show contributions that go beyond superficial involvement.
This all goes back to finding something you student is passionate about - and then getting involved. Building that resume and involvement helps if they start at the bottom in their freshman year, but again, nothing prevents a student from getting involved as a sophomore or junior either.
Aside from general extracurriculars - I do think being involved in some community service helps on the application.
For my younger daughter - her primary club was TSA, and she gradually increased her leadership roles until she was president as a senior, and also a state officer. She also participated in horse shows, and she "cheated" the system a little by being involved in a couple of honor societies - because the primary output from those societies - required community service hours.
NEXT - Recommendations and the Application Process
TennesseeJed
Footballguy
Teacher Recommendations
This is where "being nice" comes into play. Realistically, your student should be thinking about teacher recommendations by the end of Junior year. I've see people suggest that you ask teachers at the end of your junior year, but that is probably not necessary - but I would not wait much longer than the first couple of weeks into the senior year. Teachers' time is valuable and they have to prepare these letters on their own time, and popular teachers will undoubtedly have a limit on the number they can reasonably do.
For most colleges, they will require one letter from the school counselor, and 1-3 other recommendation letters, usually one has to be from a core class (math/science/English). The junior year teachers are likely to have the best/most recent interaction with your student when these letters are due.
One of the things my daughter's program did - their summer assignment after Junior year was to write a rough draft of the common app essay, create a resume, and create bullet points for teachers/counselor to use. The resume and bullet points were particularly helpful when it came time to get recommendation letters.
I'll talk a little bit more about the application process below - but it is important to think about the process like a puzzle, and all the pieces fit together to form one picture - and that includes the letters of recommendation. Students can have much more control over those letters than they might think - if they approach it appropriately.
The other thing to know about the common app in particular - you can pick and choose which letters of recommendation to use in any given application. The letters are submitted blindly - the students can't see them - but they can decide which to use. For my daughter, she ended up with 5 total letters, and then she chose which ones to include based on the requirements at each college, and which essays she used, so that the letters complemented those essays.
When my daughter asked for her letters, she included her resume, the bullet points for that particular teach, and the "theme" she was looking for from that teacher. In 2 cases, the teachers asked her to ghost write a first draft. When the student provides that kind of background info, it makes it much easier on the teacher, but also gives some assurance to the student about what those letters will say, generally.
Application Process
Most, but not all, colleges will accept the Common App (or I think there is a similar but different version). The Common App makes it easier for all of the basic bio information, and the one standard essay prompt. But, then each school will have their own requirements - such as supplemental essays, or additional information required.
If you go to enough college tours, you will grow tired about hearing the term "holistic approach". Virtually every college we went to used some variation of that when describing the application review process. I used the puzzle analogy above, and that is kind of how my daughter approached it. The application is your one chance to "interview" with the admissions counselor. It is surprisingly limited - and you have to be able to tell your story, and why you are a good candidate for their school.
Your academic credentials will speak for themselves. Unless you need to explain something - such as struggling during covid - we thought the best approach to the essays was to use that to talk about what kind of person you are - what things drive or motivate you, what is going to make you a good person to have on campus, or to ultimately be an alumni. For example, the common app essay, my daughter wrote about chasing her dreams, how she learned not to give up, and the hard work she put in to make it happen. (To address the AI comments above - I really think it helps to make these types of essays as personal as possible - with unique anecdotes. First, I think colleges really want to know about the student on a deeper personal level, and it really reduces the thoughts a counselor might have that an essay was AI). For some of the supplemental essays she talked about her leadership roles, how she failed, learned and grew. Again, the thought here was to highlight some strengths, while still making it personable/relateable.
In terms of essays - I think my daughter had 4-5 essays that she wrote on various subjects, and then tweaked a particular essay to fit the various supplemental essay prompts/word requirements. I saw most of her essays before they were submitted, but I did not provide any input on subject or grammar. For the main essay which she had to write over the summer, there was some peer review, and she also asked, and got, feedback from her English teacher on the grammar and technical aspect of the essays. My impression at the end - she did a good job providing some authentic insights into who she was as a person - and that is what we were shooting for.
Recommendation letters were chosen to complement the specific essays - and to highlight a few things that did not fit into the essays - things like collaboration, active class participation, etc.
Next Tutors or College coaches.
This is where "being nice" comes into play. Realistically, your student should be thinking about teacher recommendations by the end of Junior year. I've see people suggest that you ask teachers at the end of your junior year, but that is probably not necessary - but I would not wait much longer than the first couple of weeks into the senior year. Teachers' time is valuable and they have to prepare these letters on their own time, and popular teachers will undoubtedly have a limit on the number they can reasonably do.
For most colleges, they will require one letter from the school counselor, and 1-3 other recommendation letters, usually one has to be from a core class (math/science/English). The junior year teachers are likely to have the best/most recent interaction with your student when these letters are due.
One of the things my daughter's program did - their summer assignment after Junior year was to write a rough draft of the common app essay, create a resume, and create bullet points for teachers/counselor to use. The resume and bullet points were particularly helpful when it came time to get recommendation letters.
I'll talk a little bit more about the application process below - but it is important to think about the process like a puzzle, and all the pieces fit together to form one picture - and that includes the letters of recommendation. Students can have much more control over those letters than they might think - if they approach it appropriately.
The other thing to know about the common app in particular - you can pick and choose which letters of recommendation to use in any given application. The letters are submitted blindly - the students can't see them - but they can decide which to use. For my daughter, she ended up with 5 total letters, and then she chose which ones to include based on the requirements at each college, and which essays she used, so that the letters complemented those essays.
When my daughter asked for her letters, she included her resume, the bullet points for that particular teach, and the "theme" she was looking for from that teacher. In 2 cases, the teachers asked her to ghost write a first draft. When the student provides that kind of background info, it makes it much easier on the teacher, but also gives some assurance to the student about what those letters will say, generally.
Application Process
Most, but not all, colleges will accept the Common App (or I think there is a similar but different version). The Common App makes it easier for all of the basic bio information, and the one standard essay prompt. But, then each school will have their own requirements - such as supplemental essays, or additional information required.
If you go to enough college tours, you will grow tired about hearing the term "holistic approach". Virtually every college we went to used some variation of that when describing the application review process. I used the puzzle analogy above, and that is kind of how my daughter approached it. The application is your one chance to "interview" with the admissions counselor. It is surprisingly limited - and you have to be able to tell your story, and why you are a good candidate for their school.
Your academic credentials will speak for themselves. Unless you need to explain something - such as struggling during covid - we thought the best approach to the essays was to use that to talk about what kind of person you are - what things drive or motivate you, what is going to make you a good person to have on campus, or to ultimately be an alumni. For example, the common app essay, my daughter wrote about chasing her dreams, how she learned not to give up, and the hard work she put in to make it happen. (To address the AI comments above - I really think it helps to make these types of essays as personal as possible - with unique anecdotes. First, I think colleges really want to know about the student on a deeper personal level, and it really reduces the thoughts a counselor might have that an essay was AI). For some of the supplemental essays she talked about her leadership roles, how she failed, learned and grew. Again, the thought here was to highlight some strengths, while still making it personable/relateable.
In terms of essays - I think my daughter had 4-5 essays that she wrote on various subjects, and then tweaked a particular essay to fit the various supplemental essay prompts/word requirements. I saw most of her essays before they were submitted, but I did not provide any input on subject or grammar. For the main essay which she had to write over the summer, there was some peer review, and she also asked, and got, feedback from her English teacher on the grammar and technical aspect of the essays. My impression at the end - she did a good job providing some authentic insights into who she was as a person - and that is what we were shooting for.
Recommendation letters were chosen to complement the specific essays - and to highlight a few things that did not fit into the essays - things like collaboration, active class participation, etc.
Next Tutors or College coaches.
TennesseeJed
Footballguy
Tutor or College coaches
For this, I am talking about standardized test tutors/classes.
We have been very fortunate in terms of the education opportunities that our daughters have been given in the public school. They were both part of different magnet programs that really benefited their strengths. For our younger daughter she has been in an accelerated G&T program since 4th grade, and she was accepted into a specialized STEM program for high school - all of which have given her amazing opportunities. But, the downside has been that she sometimes struggles with self-confidence - because, as smart as she is - she compares herself to her peers, who are also very smart, and she often sells herself short. I mention this, only because it played a big part in how we approached the college application process, including the standardized tests. We felt it was very important that she found a college that felt like home for her, but also that she felt like she earned on her own - i.e. she does not have to second guess if she belongs.
So, with that in mind, we never considered getting a tutor to prepare for the ACT. Our school district pays for all sophomores and juniors to take the ACT in March each year. To prepare for the first ACT, we bought a test prep book, with practice tests, and that was it. She did very well, and scored a 34 - but she was particularly low on her math score - because she had not finished the test. At that point, we knew the 34 was in the wheelhouse of the schools she was considering, and when it came time to re-take the test as a junior, we got another book, and she only focused on the math test - just to work on the timing and rhythm. This time she finished the test, and got the 36.
If your student struggles with standardized tests, and you can afford it, I would recommend a tutor/class. For a lot of kids, getting past the test anxiety can be a real issue that masks their ability. So, having a tutor who can share some strategies and techniques to ease that anxiety is worth it imo. I don't think test grades are a critical part of the application - but as schools go back to requiring them, I think they do act as confirmation of the high school transcript. So, trying to raise a score to at least the median scores of a particular college is probably the right target.
As for college coaches, many of our daughters peers used one - and I think it is fairly typical for (wealthier) students looking to get into a T20 school. We just never saw the value. First, we felt like we had a good idea of what colleges were looking for in applications. Second, as noted above, it was really important to us that our daughter felt like she earned whatever opportunity she go on her own. And, Third, we put a lot of faith into the college admissions counselors - and by that I mean, I think they know hat they are looking for in a student who will be successful on their campus - and if that meant our daughter did not get into a particular school - it was because she was not a good fit, and would not have enjoyed the experience. We had the luxury of knowing that our daughter would have many options - but we also felt that her application would reflect exactly who she is - and colleges were either looking for that, or not. And we wanted her to be where she saw herself, and where someone else thought that she would fit in.
Our concern with a college coach was that they could potentially guide our daughter to a "better" application/essays, etc. but, that might not end up being a true reflection of who she is - and if she got into a school that was not a good fit, well we worried about those consequences from a social and academic perspective.
Last topic
ED v. RD
When we started the process for our younger daughter (Older daughter did not apply to any schools with ED, but she did apply to all of her schools Early Action - meaning she got accepted but it was not binding) we anticipated that she would apply to schools either for Regular Decision or Early Action decision. Part of this was simply indecisiveness - she could not choose a "top" school. Part of it was a recommendation from her school counselor. About mid-November daughter was getting anxious and we sat down with her, and helped her talk through her top choices - and it was clear that she had a top choice, though she was afraid to commit. We've seen the same data about acceptance rates for ED v. RD, I also ran the cost calculator at Vanderbilt to ensure we could afford it if she got in, and ultimately we allowed her to switch her application to ED2 (Vanderbilt is among a few schools who have two separate early decision windows).
After the dust settled - I am not sure it mattered from an admissions decision standpoint. I can share the admissions data - and at Vanderbilt the ED acceptance rate this year was 15.2% across both ED windows, and the regular decision acceptance rate is expected to be about 4%. Two years ago, they accidentally released data for ED1 (24%) and ED2 (10%) - and I suspect that are holds. A couple of years ago they did start to defer some students to the regular decision cycle, and they expect about 20% will get admitted. A little over half the class of 2028 will come from Early Decision.
But, what nobody sees in that data is what the applicant pool looked like for ED or RD. My impression is that the school is looking for the same student whether it is in Early Decision or Regular decision. Some leeway for the legacy, donor, athlete class - but for the typical student - I think your chances of acceptance are the roughly the same - or close enough that you should only use Early Decision on a college where it is the absolute top choice, and you know you can afford it.
For this, I am talking about standardized test tutors/classes.
We have been very fortunate in terms of the education opportunities that our daughters have been given in the public school. They were both part of different magnet programs that really benefited their strengths. For our younger daughter she has been in an accelerated G&T program since 4th grade, and she was accepted into a specialized STEM program for high school - all of which have given her amazing opportunities. But, the downside has been that she sometimes struggles with self-confidence - because, as smart as she is - she compares herself to her peers, who are also very smart, and she often sells herself short. I mention this, only because it played a big part in how we approached the college application process, including the standardized tests. We felt it was very important that she found a college that felt like home for her, but also that she felt like she earned on her own - i.e. she does not have to second guess if she belongs.
So, with that in mind, we never considered getting a tutor to prepare for the ACT. Our school district pays for all sophomores and juniors to take the ACT in March each year. To prepare for the first ACT, we bought a test prep book, with practice tests, and that was it. She did very well, and scored a 34 - but she was particularly low on her math score - because she had not finished the test. At that point, we knew the 34 was in the wheelhouse of the schools she was considering, and when it came time to re-take the test as a junior, we got another book, and she only focused on the math test - just to work on the timing and rhythm. This time she finished the test, and got the 36.
If your student struggles with standardized tests, and you can afford it, I would recommend a tutor/class. For a lot of kids, getting past the test anxiety can be a real issue that masks their ability. So, having a tutor who can share some strategies and techniques to ease that anxiety is worth it imo. I don't think test grades are a critical part of the application - but as schools go back to requiring them, I think they do act as confirmation of the high school transcript. So, trying to raise a score to at least the median scores of a particular college is probably the right target.
As for college coaches, many of our daughters peers used one - and I think it is fairly typical for (wealthier) students looking to get into a T20 school. We just never saw the value. First, we felt like we had a good idea of what colleges were looking for in applications. Second, as noted above, it was really important to us that our daughter felt like she earned whatever opportunity she go on her own. And, Third, we put a lot of faith into the college admissions counselors - and by that I mean, I think they know hat they are looking for in a student who will be successful on their campus - and if that meant our daughter did not get into a particular school - it was because she was not a good fit, and would not have enjoyed the experience. We had the luxury of knowing that our daughter would have many options - but we also felt that her application would reflect exactly who she is - and colleges were either looking for that, or not. And we wanted her to be where she saw herself, and where someone else thought that she would fit in.
Our concern with a college coach was that they could potentially guide our daughter to a "better" application/essays, etc. but, that might not end up being a true reflection of who she is - and if she got into a school that was not a good fit, well we worried about those consequences from a social and academic perspective.
Last topic
ED v. RD
When we started the process for our younger daughter (Older daughter did not apply to any schools with ED, but she did apply to all of her schools Early Action - meaning she got accepted but it was not binding) we anticipated that she would apply to schools either for Regular Decision or Early Action decision. Part of this was simply indecisiveness - she could not choose a "top" school. Part of it was a recommendation from her school counselor. About mid-November daughter was getting anxious and we sat down with her, and helped her talk through her top choices - and it was clear that she had a top choice, though she was afraid to commit. We've seen the same data about acceptance rates for ED v. RD, I also ran the cost calculator at Vanderbilt to ensure we could afford it if she got in, and ultimately we allowed her to switch her application to ED2 (Vanderbilt is among a few schools who have two separate early decision windows).
After the dust settled - I am not sure it mattered from an admissions decision standpoint. I can share the admissions data - and at Vanderbilt the ED acceptance rate this year was 15.2% across both ED windows, and the regular decision acceptance rate is expected to be about 4%. Two years ago, they accidentally released data for ED1 (24%) and ED2 (10%) - and I suspect that are holds. A couple of years ago they did start to defer some students to the regular decision cycle, and they expect about 20% will get admitted. A little over half the class of 2028 will come from Early Decision.
But, what nobody sees in that data is what the applicant pool looked like for ED or RD. My impression is that the school is looking for the same student whether it is in Early Decision or Regular decision. Some leeway for the legacy, donor, athlete class - but for the typical student - I think your chances of acceptance are the roughly the same - or close enough that you should only use Early Decision on a college where it is the absolute top choice, and you know you can afford it.
TennesseeJed
Footballguy
One last thing I thought of that was different for both of our kids - the sequence of AP English classes.
For my older daughter, her school generally had AP Lit in Junior year, and AP Lang in senior year. Our younger daughter had that reversed - and if you have the option - I recommend AP Lang in the Junior year, and Lit in senior.
The practical reason - AP Lang in your junior year will still provide some help/tutoring towards taking ACT/SAT tests in the spring/summer of Junior year.
For my older daughter, her school generally had AP Lit in Junior year, and AP Lang in senior year. Our younger daughter had that reversed - and if you have the option - I recommend AP Lang in the Junior year, and Lit in senior.
The practical reason - AP Lang in your junior year will still provide some help/tutoring towards taking ACT/SAT tests in the spring/summer of Junior year.
TennesseeJed
Footballguy
I also recommend that you tour as many schools as is practical for you. Over the entire process, we did 20+ college tours - and just as important as the college itself, is letting the student see various settings - small colleges, large universities, rural settings, urban settings, geographic location, etc. Some were specific college tours - but we also planned around family trips if there was a college nearby that she was interested in seeing.
I think it really helped inform my daughter about what she was looking for in a college experience. She did a lot of her own research, but having those visits as reference points helped identify things she liked, and did not like.
And, post-covid, I think a lot of schools still offer virtual tours and admissions sessions that are better than nothing.
I think it really helped inform my daughter about what she was looking for in a college experience. She did a lot of her own research, but having those visits as reference points helped identify things she liked, and did not like.
And, post-covid, I think a lot of schools still offer virtual tours and admissions sessions that are better than nothing.
bigbottom
Footballguy
Man, that is a seriously comprehensive summary @TennesseeJed ! I can’t think of anything I would add and I agree with pretty much everything you wrote. I’m sure the effort you took to write that up will benefit many others who are starting this process for their own kids. Good on you!
The Z Machine
Footballguy
Amazing writeup @TennesseeJed !
El Floppo
Footballguy
I kid, obviously. Amazing stuff, tenn. And most of it supporting our own experience and info so far. (Eta.. rereading my sentence before came across wrong to me just now as knowit-ally... Not my intention. Super happy and apprecistive to have our own study of this be supported by someone who's gone through the process twice)
Thank you for the time, thought and energy in doing that!
I'll add... I hope you stick around- obviously amazing insight here, but nice having you in the soccer threads too.
Thank you for the time, thought and energy in doing that!
I'll add... I hope you stick around- obviously amazing insight here, but nice having you in the soccer threads too.
TennesseeJed
Footballguy
I keep thinking of little things:
One thing we did that helped the process was to create new emails for our kids just for the college application process. That kept all college/ACT/Scholarship emails in one place. I had access to the emails so that I could help keep track of any deadlines. But, really my primary involvement was early on just reminding them to check, read, respond/delete to the emails since, as you probably already know, at that age email is not a preferred method of communication for teens, and they might go weeks without checking on their own. Eventually they developed better habits, and I had no real involvement with those emails. But, it still helped keep them organized when it came to college communications, and also prevented their "norma" emails from being cluttered, or spammed.
Side note - I mentioned above that I know one of the admissions counselors at my daughter's school, and one piece of advice she gave me years ago - admissions people would really prefer to deal with students rather than parents - so, if you ever get the urge to send questions - fight the urge, and encourage your student to open those lines of communication
One thing we did that helped the process was to create new emails for our kids just for the college application process. That kept all college/ACT/Scholarship emails in one place. I had access to the emails so that I could help keep track of any deadlines. But, really my primary involvement was early on just reminding them to check, read, respond/delete to the emails since, as you probably already know, at that age email is not a preferred method of communication for teens, and they might go weeks without checking on their own. Eventually they developed better habits, and I had no real involvement with those emails. But, it still helped keep them organized when it came to college communications, and also prevented their "norma" emails from being cluttered, or spammed.
Side note - I mentioned above that I know one of the admissions counselors at my daughter's school, and one piece of advice she gave me years ago - admissions people would really prefer to deal with students rather than parents - so, if you ever get the urge to send questions - fight the urge, and encourage your student to open those lines of communication
TennesseeJed
Footballguy
BTW - I did not read it like that. I think it helps when others confirm a similar experience - particularly for the next person to come along. They can have some assurance its not simply the ramblings of a madman!
bigbottom
Footballguy
Regarding parents staying out of it, we engaged a consultant that had a very specific scope: (1) helping our son identify schools that fit his criteria that he may not have otherwise considered or even been aware of and obtain a realistic view on safety, target, reach categories; (2) managing the calendar and ensuring that work was done on the front end rather than waiting until the last minute; (3) helping our son with strategy for approaching his personal statement and the other school specific essays.
The greatest value of this engagement was it allowed mom and dad to basically step out of the process and let our son drive it. Other than the initial meet and greet, we never again met with or talked to the consultant. And we never saw any of his essays until he was ready to submit them. The result was he owned the process, we didn’t have to nag him, and his individual voice shone through on his applications.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
@TennesseeJed great write ups!
I read through them all and was nodding along. We have talked in parts about many of these over the life of the thread but it was wonderful to see them all summarized together.
If I missed it, please excuse me, but what are the current thoughts about the child's social media accounts? Do colleges look at these and if so, should a cleansing of anything even remotely problematic occur on the child's account?
I read through them all and was nodding along. We have talked in parts about many of these over the life of the thread but it was wonderful to see them all summarized together.
If I missed it, please excuse me, but what are the current thoughts about the child's social media accounts? Do colleges look at these and if so, should a cleansing of anything even remotely problematic occur on the child's account?
El Floppo
Footballguy
Based on a panel of college admissions people and my son's guidance counselor, they look at these. So hopefully the media backs up the narrative for the kid and doesn't have yucky stuff in it.
TennesseeJed
Footballguy
I'll defer to Floppos experience here - but I would say, that in my daughters circle of friends they are a lot more savvy than I would have been. Most of the instagram accounts are private, and I think a lot of stuff gets posted as stories so they disappear from eh account in 24 hours, so I don't know what can be seen by admissions folks, but I am sure the schools do a cursory check. The other thing to keep in mind - applications are up everywhere, and admissions staff won't have the kind of time to do a deep dive on this.
As for cleansing - it's probably a good maturing process - meaning helping the students understand the long-term ramifications both with potential schools but also future employers. Just explaining how long these things hang around in cyberspace.
NutterButter
Footballguy
I think a lot have 2 insta accounts with the private one for friends being referred to as their "finsta" for fake instagram.
Really amazingly good posts from Tennesseejed, and I think the approaches he talks about are pretty similar to those that others on here have written about that led to successful college application journeys.
Some notes and thoughts on things he wrote about:
Some notes and thoughts on things he wrote about:
- "Find a passion, and get involved" - I'd add...if they don't have a 'passion', then just start with something they kind of enjoy and build on it. And if they can't come up with something like that, this is one area where you can give them some guidance. Suggest some ideas, provide links to some interesting articles or videos on a variety of topics, etc. The key is starting somewhere, learning about something, getting to know others who are doing things in that area, figuring out related activities, etc. I wrote some posts about this in this thread a while back.
- Community service - the essays for some colleges are REALLY hard to complete if they haven't done substantial community service. I think I remember that Princeton had some required topics that pretty much required it.
- For their essays, definitely good to discuss whatever their 'area of passion' is in the essay. That's their opportunity to tie together all their different activities, accomplishments, etc. One useful guideline I've heard is that they should write essays that could only be written by them...needs to be unique enough that it wouldn't apply to anyone else. Another way to think about this is that as part of the application process, students should explain why they're of unique interest to the college and the college is the ideal one for them to go to
- I'd suggest getting teacher and guidance recommendations earlier than tennesseejed is suggesting. My daughter's high school (fairly typical big suburban school) has 700 kids per grade, almost all of whom go to college. There are two guidance counselors. One of them basically admitted that she spends the most time on those for the students who have taken the time to get to know her and provide her with a lot of info, and that she doesn't the rec letters for those in June-ish of Junior year. By senior year, she's probably just cranking out hundreds of generic letters.
- I think it's ok to be more or less involved, depending on what your kid needs
- I'd definitely recommend starting early on taking SATs, since there's no real limit on how many times they can take it. Also, if they get a good enough score early, that's one less thing to stress about later on
- Also would suggest as early a start on the main essay as possible to avoid the stress of having to do it last minute
- Creating a resume and/or linked in profile is a useful exercise in terms of organizing their thoughts about their accomplishments and how things look when everything it put together
- Although I agree that it's very hard to evaluate what the acceptance rates for early decision, early action and regular decision mean, given the lack of info about the qualifications of each applicant pool, I do think there's reason to think that some schools give preferential treatment for early decision specifically, since the guarantee of the accepted students enrolling at the school boosts the school's rankings. That said, with recent changes to many of the ranking systems, I'm not sure if this is as true as it would have been even a couple of years ago
jabarony
Footballguy
Took the HS junior on our first out-of-state college visits - Wisconsin, Marquette, Northwestern, and Notre Dame. Back in the day, I went to a commuter school, - in & out, get your degree & move on - so I was sold on all of the schools we visited. Each one better than the last. By the end I was ready to pull a Thorton Mellon. So much great stuff is available at all of these schools. My son didn't seem enamored with any of them. But he's also a surly teen, so getting any feedback is often tough. However when we got home he was in one of his rare affable moods and told his mom he loved Notre Dame. I don't blame him. It was an amazing campus. I felt like that idiot, Rudy, by the time we were done with the tour. Whistled the fight song the entire car ride home.
They are a Needs-Based school for their tuition. I don't know that their view on our needs aligns with our view. I went ahead and did their cost estimator. They have a 3 minute broad estimator and a 30 minute detailed estimator. I chose the former. Unfortunately, I'm not sure he'll be going to Notre Dame. While we could make it work, we'll have to have a serious discussion about cost vs. benefit. Especially since he wants to go to med school after. It was stated a few times in this thread - these schools seem to punish you for saving $. You tell them we have X saved up and they say "ok we'll take that... and then some more.". They also don't seem to have a box for "I plan on continuing my education after undergrad and would like to have some money left over available for that". And while they have a box for "Do you currently have siblings in college", they don't have one that accounts for siblings who will be attending college in the following years. I know they can reassess yearly, but I can't count on any of them to give big deductions in years 2-4. Worse then not allowing him to go to a school would be to tell him after year 1 that we can no longer afford it and he'll have to switch schools.
The above dilemma is about ND, but I'm sure it's the same for most out-of-state desirable schools.
He may not get accepted anyhow, so the cost discussion may not need to be had re: ND. To some extent it probably will at whichever schools he is accepted.
They are a Needs-Based school for their tuition. I don't know that their view on our needs aligns with our view. I went ahead and did their cost estimator. They have a 3 minute broad estimator and a 30 minute detailed estimator. I chose the former. Unfortunately, I'm not sure he'll be going to Notre Dame. While we could make it work, we'll have to have a serious discussion about cost vs. benefit. Especially since he wants to go to med school after. It was stated a few times in this thread - these schools seem to punish you for saving $. You tell them we have X saved up and they say "ok we'll take that... and then some more.". They also don't seem to have a box for "I plan on continuing my education after undergrad and would like to have some money left over available for that". And while they have a box for "Do you currently have siblings in college", they don't have one that accounts for siblings who will be attending college in the following years. I know they can reassess yearly, but I can't count on any of them to give big deductions in years 2-4. Worse then not allowing him to go to a school would be to tell him after year 1 that we can no longer afford it and he'll have to switch schools.
The above dilemma is about ND, but I'm sure it's the same for most out-of-state desirable schools.
He may not get accepted anyhow, so the cost discussion may not need to be had re: ND. To some extent it probably will at whichever schools he is accepted.
jabarony
Footballguy
I'm not sure our kids will even use that option. It would have to be both their #1 school of choice, and money would have to be not a criteria. That is, it would likely have to be an in-state school where we can afford the worst case tuition (no discount) I don't see how we could ever commit to a school before we know for certain the amount of financial aid they would provide.
But to hypothetically answer your question, I think the main criteria is that the kid would have to be 100% sure that's their choice, not 99% with a chance of changing their mind.
El Floppo
Footballguy
Thanks Jaba. We're a year out too, and weighing all that. We're only looking at places with large endowments that are need blind. Lots of moving parts, but cost calculators kinda sorta work (hopefully).
Our school uses Maya Learning as a data resource- eye-opening that the school does well with ED at some schools but not others.
Curious about the people who have gone through it already.
Our school uses Maya Learning as a data resource- eye-opening that the school does well with ED at some schools but not others.
Curious about the people who have gone through it already.
TennesseeJed
Footballguy
for us (as parents) - it came down to - was there a clear top choice (i.e. no regrets about passing up other schools), and could we afford it. Like you we were really only looking at need-blind, meet all demonstrated need - (which really just means large endowment!)
For our daughter - she looked at the admission rate generally - but more specifically she was concerned about other kids in her program applying - as that becomes a very easy comparison for admissions counselors to make. It's "harder" to compare two kids directly from different schools. (as it turns out, an unfounded fear)
I am still not convinced there is a meaningful difference in the type of student that schools accept ED v. Regular Decision.
I do have some updated data for Vandy:
Early Decision
5835 applied; 887 Accepted - 15.2%
Middle 50%
SAT Reading : 740-770
SAT Math: 770-790
ACT: 34-35
Regular Decision
41,336 applied; 1587 accepted - 3.7%
Middle 50%
SAT Reading : 750-800
SAT Math: 780-800
ACT: 34-36
It does look like the averages are slightly higher for Regular Decision - but without knowing the breakdown of legacy, donor and athletes - I would say that the difference is not likely to be significant. And, keep in mind, this is still test-optional - so the self-reporting here skews higher.
I would add on the cost calculator - I ended up doing the 30-minute version, and the actual aid we received was a little bit higher - but that might have had something to do with Vanderbilt upping their aid across the board early this year (after I did the initial calculator)
TennesseeJed
Footballguy
I think a lot of schools that have binding Early Decision - also offer to meet all demonstrated financial need (some will include Federal Student Loans, some do it loan-free) - so you can get a pretty good estimate before applying.
And, you can back out if the financials are not what you were expecting.
El Floppo
Footballguy
And some schools offer big merit scholarships pretty much only to ED/EA applicants.
TennesseeJed
Footballguy
Yeah - most of the scholarship deadlines are well before the regular application deadline.
TennesseeJed
Footballguy
TennesseeJed
Footballguy
I just ran across this blurb (from pre-covid when test scores were mandatory) - and thought it was appropriate for the thread (relating to test scores):
We read holistically, but I’m human and I understand that the testing profile is a convenient numerical way to gauge your competitiveness as an applicant.
Here’s what I tell my students: if you’re within the mid-50% you have a good foundation to your application (but remember there are many other pieces to the puzzle).
If you have a test score above our mid-50%, you have a great foundation. Don’t slack on the rest of the application or you may not be happy with the result; also, if you have those great scores PLUS a great application we may chase you with merit money.
Finally, if you have a test score below our mid-50%, not all hope is lost! A quarter of our current freshman class scored below that number and they’re on campus now. However, with that lower test score, you’ve got to shine on the rest of the application.
We read holistically, but I’m human and I understand that the testing profile is a convenient numerical way to gauge your competitiveness as an applicant.
Here’s what I tell my students: if you’re within the mid-50% you have a good foundation to your application (but remember there are many other pieces to the puzzle).
If you have a test score above our mid-50%, you have a great foundation. Don’t slack on the rest of the application or you may not be happy with the result; also, if you have those great scores PLUS a great application we may chase you with merit money.
Finally, if you have a test score below our mid-50%, not all hope is lost! A quarter of our current freshman class scored below that number and they’re on campus now. However, with that lower test score, you’ve got to shine on the rest of the application.
belljr
Footballguy
We are already in school and of the schools we looked at she was in the mid or above. Just wasnt expecting to see a 1450 as low mid lol
I did read that reported score ranges are artificially "inflated" because since covid the only kids submitting test scores are the ones doing well and using them as stated
Ymmv
El Floppo
Footballguy
Those Vandy median numbers were eye-opening.
I assume that median numbers will drop but as you say- with a lot of school reinstituting mandatory tests.
bigbottom
Footballguy
My son had a 35 on his ACT and was rejected from Vandy regular decision. I know there has been a fair amount of debate, but I have to think (even taking into account the numbers above) that applying ED materially increases your odds over RD. ED he may have had a fighting chance, but we all expected the rejection in RD (including his application consultant).
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Lehigh98
Footballguy
My son just accepted his offer to PSU Main Campus to major in "Biochemistry and Molecular Biology".
It was a pretty low drama process as he's pretty laid back and was looking for a large R1 state school that wasn't crazy expensive.
Only applied to two schools, PSU and Pitt. Accepted to both, picked PSU.
Now the drama is going to be with son #2 two years from now...
It was a pretty low drama process as he's pretty laid back and was looking for a large R1 state school that wasn't crazy expensive.
Only applied to two schools, PSU and Pitt. Accepted to both, picked PSU.
Now the drama is going to be with son #2 two years from now...
bigbottom
Footballguy
Congrats!!
The Z Machine
Footballguy
Awesome news. And GLLLLLLLL for the 2nd one.
dnurk
Footballguy
We are from Indiana but my HS junior son is obsessed with everything out of doors. Convinced he wants to go to a school out west so we are doing a spring break tour this week. He absolutely loved Univ of Utah and especially their fairly competitive honors college. Didn’t care for Colorado College or UC Colorado Springs. Visiting UC Boulder tomorrow. Indiana University is his safety school if all else doesn’t come together. He has a 3.9 unweighted and just did a 1330 on his first SAT. He wants to improve on that for potential merit scholarships.
Thoughts/experiences on the SAT vs ACT? Where we live most every kid takes the sat.
His current top choice of honors college at Utah has a median 3.9 unweighted and reports mean of 32 act.
Other fun fact we didn’t know. Out of state students at University Utah who live there for a full year and give up residency in their home state can qualify for Utah residency and get in state tuition after that.
Thoughts/experiences on the SAT vs ACT? Where we live most every kid takes the sat.
His current top choice of honors college at Utah has a median 3.9 unweighted and reports mean of 32 act.
Other fun fact we didn’t know. Out of state students at University Utah who live there for a full year and give up residency in their home state can qualify for Utah residency and get in state tuition after that.
bigbottom
Footballguy
I would recommend that he take the ACT at his next opportunity, and then see which one suits him better performance wise. The over-simplified view (at least when my son took it) is that the SAT has harder questions, while the ACT has more time pressure.
jabarony
Footballguy
IN to CO and UT? That’s a heck of a trip!
I’m going to have my kids take both ACT and SAT and use the better result. Maybe both if they’re close to each other.
jabarony
Footballguy
Is there a reason he applied RD instead of ED?
bigbottom
Footballguy
Vandy wasn’t his first choice school. USC was, and USC doesn’t have ED.
El Floppo
Footballguy
EA though, right?
bigbottom
Footballguy
Yes. He was deferred on EA and then accepted during RD.
El Floppo
Footballguy
Floppinho toured USC during spring break and loved it. Feels like a great fit for him in terms of being able to cross pollinate music with something else (finance or science/neuro-science). Sounds like hell EA there.
Also looked at UMiami and liked it for all the same reasons. I know UM isn't easy to get into, but will probably be a backup school... And he'd be totally happy going if there rest didn't work out. Nice to have a backup lined up that is still a school that would be a great fit.
The Dreaded Marco
Footballguy
Like others have said, my daughter applied ED to what was clearly her #1 choice and had the lowest acceptance rate.
El Floppo
Footballguy
It's been good ED info so far friend- thanks!
Trying to see if there were any other wrinkles or gamesmanship your kids considered or had to navigate in their ED decision.
Somebody mentioned classmates... Which seems a big one. Youre competing against those kids almost more than the rest of the country. Not sure how floppinho can play that one- would never ask people. I assume, but am not sure, that the guidance counselors will have a hand in trying to make sure there aren't 30 kids EDing Brown or something. We know that one of his friends was dissuaded from making an ED attempt to Stanford, but he knows that's all out of his control.
And I mentioned the data that has a lot of kids from his school historically (recent) getting in ED at some places and not at others. It's hard not to discount that.
And I'm pretty sure there are schools that only allow Early anything to 1 only (Ivies?)
But so far, yeah- it's mostly about identifying his slam dunk #1.
Trying to see if there were any other wrinkles or gamesmanship your kids considered or had to navigate in their ED decision.
Somebody mentioned classmates... Which seems a big one. Youre competing against those kids almost more than the rest of the country. Not sure how floppinho can play that one- would never ask people. I assume, but am not sure, that the guidance counselors will have a hand in trying to make sure there aren't 30 kids EDing Brown or something. We know that one of his friends was dissuaded from making an ED attempt to Stanford, but he knows that's all out of his control.
And I mentioned the data that has a lot of kids from his school historically (recent) getting in ED at some places and not at others. It's hard not to discount that.
And I'm pretty sure there are schools that only allow Early anything to 1 only (Ivies?)
But so far, yeah- it's mostly about identifying his slam dunk #1.
bigbottom
Footballguy
Re: USC, it was the first campus tour for my son (we went during his sophomore year) and it was his #1 choice from that day until the day he accepted. The music/arts scene is incredible. While he is an engineering student, he has taken some music stuff, including a songwriting class this semester. He has friends who are music production majors, film school majors, and other arts programs. All of the incredibly talented arts faculty students makes for an extremely enriching experience as a student. And much to his dad’s delight, he finally discovered a love for music performance and is now playing in two bands and sitting in with a bunch of talented student vocalists when they perform publicly. He was also an extra (in the house band) in a student film (Bruce Dern has a role in it). So if your kid likes the crossover to music and the arts, it’s hard to do better than USC in my opinion.
As far as oddball “celebs” go, my kid played a show with Doggface, the Dreams/Skateboard/Ocean Spray guy. Not sure that ends up on his resume, but it was a kick.
jabarony
Footballguy
Oh. Duh. Sorry I got EA vs ED confused. I meant to ask why RD instead of EA? Never mind.
