NewlyRetired
Footballguy
almost every engineer in the world is scratching their head looking at this list
I would take MIT or Cal Tech over any of these if you wanted to go into any sort of tech field.
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College Admissions Questions (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter NewlyRetired
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I would take MIT or Cal Tech over any of these if you wanted to go into any sort of tech field.
Nigel
Footballguy
As great of a student and all around applicant as my daughter is I'd always figured she'd be in high enough demand that we wouldn't be paying full boat for her college tuition. I hadn't really considered that the top schools don't give merit awards, which I guess makes sense...I mean who do you give them to when everyone "deserves" one? But as a family in that unfortunate band where we won't get any financial aid but its going to hurt like hell to pay full tuition it really does blow.
I find myself alternately stressed out with hoping she gets into her top choices, and then damn near having a panic attack when imagining what happens if she does get into her top choices. She's got three EA applications in (G'Town, UNC, BC), we'll see what happens.
I find myself alternately stressed out with hoping she gets into her top choices, and then damn near having a panic attack when imagining what happens if she does get into her top choices. She's got three EA applications in (G'Town, UNC, BC), we'll see what happens.
chet
Footballguy
Is there a better place to be for computer science than Stanford? I'd argue not.almost every engineer in the world is scratching their head looking at this list
I would take MIT or Cal Tech over any of these if you wanted to go into any sort of tech field.
Because its so small, Cal Tech doesn't have the reputation of any of the schools I listed.
You could make the argument to include MIT but when I said that you owe it to yourself to go if you're admitted, I meant that simply attending any of those schools can make a difference for the rest of your life. Part of that are the contacts that you can make at the schools I listed and because it's so specialized, I doubt you'd be able to recreate that at MIT. Again, just my opinion and we are talking about the elite of the elite schools in the world.
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NewlyRetired
Footballguy
Stanford has a great CS program, typically ranked in the top 10 in the country but it is not the default #1 best CS school in the country.
Carnegie Mellon, MIT and Cal Tech are the most common schools at the top of the CS list from what I have seen.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
great schools in the east! Wellesley will be a safety school from this group. It is a prestigious school but much easier for top girls to get into since they don't have to lose spots to 50% of boys, most of whom have lower qualifications than they do.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
remember, when people say top schools, they are talking about a very exclusive club. Unless I am mistaken, the three very good schools you listed all have merit based scholarships.
I never expected any scholarships with my daughter and was expecting to pay full price and she got one from every single school she got into(varying sizes but all significant). Ironically the only school she was rejected from would have also been the only one with no scholarship, Brown.
Keep your fingers crossed and I hope the best for you!
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Tick
Footballguy
Amount of scholarship doesn't mean anything, really - how much are predicted costs over 4 years after getting the scholarship? That's what should be compared across schools.Couple questions... My daughter is in a great spot academically. She's top 10 in a class of 300+, has a great resume, and crushed the SAT's. I think she could have a legit shot at Ivy league, but she's just not interested. Her 1st choice right now is a local private school and she will have no problem getting accepted. Problem is, we're not going to qualify for any type of financial aid, so the question becomes, how much of her college savings does she want to blow on undergrad, when she'll almost certainly have more schooling to come?
My questions specifically are...
TIA
- Her first choice school (Dickinson) offers different levels of merit-based scholarships. The highest level is $20k per year and the 2nd highest is $15k per year, but they both list the same qualifications (which she meets). I think she will go there for sure if she gets the $20k. What can she do to help ensure she gets the maximum scholarship offer?
- Her special interest counselor suggested that she apply to Duquesne because they apparently have a huge endowment right now and are really trying to recruit top level science students. He said one of their students applied last year and ended up getting an offer she couldnt refuse. This is particularly interesting to me because he also said that final offers are negotiable? As in, my daughter could potentially take this offer from Dusquesne into Dickinson and use it to negotiate a better deal. Is this really common practice?
Nigel
Footballguy
No merit at GTown (her first choice) or Nortwestern (2nd after visiting last weekend). At BC (she’ll get in, but way down on her list) it’s all of nothing, 20 or so kids get full boat Presidents Scholarship, but that’s it. Not sure on UNC & Vandy. Maybe some there.
Hard to come by even at that second tier from what I can tell. Supply and demand, it all makes sense...I was just a little naive going into it all I guess.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
Bummer :(
yeah, my daughter scooped one of the presidential scholarships for Trinity but it was a tiny group (I think 10 total kids in her class).
chet
Footballguy
At some point, the school transcends the education. CS at Stanford might not be rated as highly as some other schools, but that's made moot by its proximity to Silicon Valley and all that comes with that. Look, we're splitting hairs and really discussing quality of education versus overall experience and rolodex at graduation.
Tick
Footballguy
Are you sure it isn't Nebraska-Omaha? They have some auto merit full scholarships.
I took this route - pre-internet, with counselors that were just trying to keep kids off drugs and knew nothing about college, I relied on US News and World Report, plus the letters I got from colleges. I had no ties to Oklahoma, and engineering wasn't a noted strength of theirs, but they offered a full scholarship, so I went there. I loved it and came out without debt and was able to get good engineering jobs each time I've looked for one. I've also been involved in hiring, and in engineering, none of the companies I've worked for have cared which school applicants attended, as long as it was accredited and they didn't lie about it.
In hindsight, it might be the best decision I've ever made... but it also could have been awful. It seems to me that choosing a school is enough of a crapshoot that choosing based on total cost makes a lot of sense.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
Your story is one that most American parents have a hard time digesting but time and again it has been proven that there are so many decent colleges in the US and so many jobs available that if any child goes to almost any college and does well (ie takes it seriously and gets the most he can from that school, no matter what its name is) that they are going to get themselves into the work force.
At which point once you get into the work force, it becomes less and less about what college you came from and more and more about how much of a quality worker you are.
But many American parents have the mental process ("biggest name school or bust for my child") which is something the college system loves as it feeds everyone in the system from top to the bottom and trickles its way down into the kids themselves who almost see it as a competition and reward for their hard work.
bigbottom
Footballguy
Even if a kid gets in to one of those schools, he or she shouldn’t attend if it’s truly not the right fit.
bigbottom
Footballguy
Part of the reason we engaged a private counsultant was so that we as his parents could avoid this approach. The goal is for our son to take charge of this process and to work with the consultant to find schools that are the right fit for him, in addition to being reputable and a good value.
Nigel
Footballguy
Unlikely she’d get in, but my daughter would rather go to BC than Harvard. Just not her. Felt the same way about U Chicago when she visited, reminded her too much of Harvard, not going to bother applying.
The_Man
Footballguy
I know it sounds pretentious (or self-delusional) but my kid hated Harvard. The whole vibe was, of course you want to go here but you probably won't be able to. And then the tour was very perfunctory - of course, with supply and demand, they don't have to try to sell themselves. And it was off-putting to literally see private tour groups walking the Yard like it was a tourist attraction, not a place where kids hang out with their friends for 4 years.
The flip side of that for me was Yale - it seemed to combine the incredible academics and facilities with a realization that undergraduates still want to have fun and be part of a community. Moot point for my son, though, since he didn't get in. Oh, well - Go Bruno!
The_Man
Footballguy
Those are all great schools. If you kid likes all those, I'd put in a plug for Brown as well. Liberal arts and undergrad focused, in a city, seems to fit the profile.
But my biggest piece of advice to anyone looking at schools is not to focus all your attention on the top of the list. You need to have what I call a "financial safety" - a school that you know will accept your kid, that you can afford, and that your kid could see themselves attending if all else fails. My kid wasn't super psyched about his "financial safety" but he understood the importance of having one, just in case. Ended up not needing it, but it certainly eased my mind to know we had it.
wilked
Footballguy
Not sure if you meant that as tongue in cheek or not, but I assume you meant that you are in the 75-95th income percentile in the USANigel said:
https://dqydj.com/united-states-household-income-brackets-percentiles/
I am willing to bet that the families in the 25-50% band would kill to switch places, even with full tuition rides to local universities
Nigel
Footballguy
While in general I'm quite happy not to be in the 25 - 50% band, there's nothing tongue in cheek about it sucking to make just enough to be ineligible for any financial aid.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
has the common app changed in recent years?My daughter submitted 2 EA apps last night.I've got to assume that the next ones will be easier because the common app is done and she'll be able to recycle some of the supplemental essays.
When my daughter used it there was 1 main essay that could be sent to every school and then each school would give their own essay questions to be answered as supplemental essays. These were specific to the school and could not be sent to other schools.
It sounds like what you said above that things are different now. Does the main app have multiple essay questions that can be sent to all schools?
Gawain
Footballguy
My wife and I have actively talked about whether or not we should be thinking about trying to game our income when our kids get to college age.
I'd be 54 and she'd be 51, so we'd really have to be ready to retire when I'm 51 based on the prior-prior look-back that the Fafsa uses and I'm not sure we'd be able to get there.
However working for a company that's willing to massively defer compensation or have significant cash on hand to allow us to switch to part-time might be enough to get us under 50%.
Depending on the shape of the ACA at that point as well, the subsidy cliff makes a major impact on HH income as well.
bigbottom
Footballguy
Best of luck!My daughter submitted 2 EA apps last night.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
we are in a situation where we have very low household income but high means (which is likely what you are trying to do by retiring early).
Having low income does allow you to get some Fafsa money, but that money is really small in the grand scheme of financial aid.
It is the schools themselves who give the vast majority of financial aid and unlike Fafsa, the schools look at EVERYTHING. So if you have any sort of means (which you would have to have to retire early), the means will disqualify you from any school aid.
wilked
Footballguy
chet
Footballguy
I think it's still the same--the common app essay is one 650 word submission. What I meant was that the extra essays that she's written as the supplemental requirement for two schools will in all likelihood be similar to the supplemental essays for other applications.
Gawain
Footballguy
Are there any safe havens for school financial aid purposes? Bond ladders seem to be a nice way to deal with the ACA issue, but from my minimal search (and I'm sure the landscape will change if 15 years), retirement accounts and home equity seem to be the only carve-outs.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
my wife handled filling out the CSS but I remember her saying it felt like it left no stone unturned. The Fafsa in comparison was very simple to fill out. I think the CSS form even takes into account what cars you drive.
SFBayDuck
Footballguy
My daughter is a sophomore so we'll be embarking on this journey soon, but I haven't really started to look into this. As for financial aid, that means question is a big one I had. I make a decent income, but also live in one of the most expensive places in the country. Does that get figured in? The reality is that we're likely to move while she is in college to a more affordable area, but I can't do so until she's out of high school.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
Double check but I believe neither the Fafsa nor CSS take into account cost of living. The CSS does use the value of your home against you.
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The_Man
Footballguy
They don't really do a cost of living assessment, other than to give you a break for how much your monthly mortgage payment is.
A really good starting place is to visit websites of some colleges you might be interested in - they're required by law to have what's called a Net Price Calculator. If you have a copy of your most recent tax refund, you can pretty much fill out the questionnaire - and it gives you a very decent ballpark estimate of what you'll be expected to pay every year, called the Expected Family Contribution (EFC).
Note: not every school awards the amount of aid that it takes to make up the difference between the sticker price and your EFC. This is called getting "gapped" and it will be up to you to fill that gap, probably with loans.
Some other notes - some colleges, generally the richer and more selective ones, make you fill out a much more detailed form called the CSS. These schools are the ones that "meet full demonstrated need" (i.e., they won't gap you) but as a result they really want a more complete picture of your assets.
Also, as recently discussed, a lot of schools these days are offering "merit aid" which reduces your EFC. These are essentially discounts to help attract kids who might otherwise enroll elsewhere, usually a more highly ranked school.
EDIT: The CSS doesn't exactly use the value of your home against you. But it does take into account some portion of your home equity. And second homes/investment properties count against you hugely in the formula, as they look at those as assets you can liquidate to use for tuition.
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SFBayDuck
Footballguy
Ha. I'm old enough to have a 15 year old daughter and am still renting, and you don't want to know what that monthly bill is.
That is a good nugget on investment property. We've contemplated buying a place up in Eugene in the next year or two and using it as a rental that we potentially move in to in a few years, so I guess what I'll have to look in to is if there isn't really any equity if that will have much of an impact. What is becoming obvious is that I haven't even started this process yet other than beginning to think about it, and I can already tell it's going to be pretty overwhelming and complicated. Throw in two households (divorce), and I'm sure that makes it even more so. At least I only have one kid to worry about, as the step son is going to be living on the couch in the garage with no college ambitions until the day we move.
Thanks for the info, much appreciated. My daughter is a very good student at a respected private school, so if cost of living for the parents isn't considered in EFC, then "merit aid" is probably going to be our only chance at help.
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The_Man
Footballguy
This is a very dense but interesting piece about the rapidly increasing number of students scoring at the very highest ranges of both the ACT and SAT
https://www.compassprep.com/great-to-good-the-diluted-value-of-high-test-scores/
I'm not going to get into it all, but here are some key points:
Also, the SAT isn't comparing apples to apples with 2017 vs. 2018 - for the Class of 2017, they only counted kids who took the "new" SAT, and a lot of kids hurried to take the old one as juniors because they were concerned with the changes.
I think the biggest takeaway is that a top score in no way distinguishes an applicant today. It's basically just table stakes to get in the game. A high score doesn't do anything to get you admitted, but a low one automatically disqualifies you. Here's how the article put it:
https://www.compassprep.com/great-to-good-the-diluted-value-of-high-test-scores/
I'm not going to get into it all, but here are some key points:
- In the last 10 years, the number of students scoring 1400-1600 on the SAT or 31-36 on the ACT doubled.
- In just the last 5 years, the number of students scoring 1500-1600 or 34-36 has doubled.
- In the class of 2017, College Board reported 85,000 students scored between 1400 and 1600. For the class of 2018, 145,000 fell in this range — a 71% jump in a single year
Also, the SAT isn't comparing apples to apples with 2017 vs. 2018 - for the Class of 2017, they only counted kids who took the "new" SAT, and a lot of kids hurried to take the old one as juniors because they were concerned with the changes.
I think the biggest takeaway is that a top score in no way distinguishes an applicant today. It's basically just table stakes to get in the game. A high score doesn't do anything to get you admitted, but a low one automatically disqualifies you. Here's how the article put it:
bigbottom
Footballguy
Interesting read, thanks for posting. A side note to this is that College Board appears may be starting to apply harsher curves to its SAT scoring. Whether it's because the tests are truly becoming easier or because of some other factor is up for debate. Most people have heard about the June SAT where kids with great raw scores were getting hosed by the curve. Although scores for the most recent SAT won't be released until Friday, it is widely speculated that the curve will once again be very harsh, at least on the math side. Some have opined that College Board's goal is to force more kids to the middle range of scores and eliminate the growth at the top end of the spectrum. It will be interesting to see how the stats for the class of 2019 come out.
Nigel
Footballguy
The most recent cause for my daughter's angst is finding out Georgetown is also the first choice of the president of her senior class, and worrying that it might be a "one or the other" situation. My question is whether or not there is any disadvantage when there are multiple strong candidates from the same school, or is she is truly competing with every other applicant with a head-to-head competition with the local kid a non-factor?
fyi, besides the president thing I think she has the better resume, but that must carry a lot of weight. She also says he's a great kid.
fyi, besides the president thing I think she has the better resume, but that must carry a lot of weight. She also says he's a great kid.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
The top colleges do like to diversify as a high level concept and that includes choosing kids from as many locations as possible.
That being said, if it is only 2 kids and they are both great candidates I don't think it will be any issue IMO. In a quick search online I saw instances of two or more students from the same high school get accepted to Georgetown EA.
Nigel
Footballguy
Thanks for the info. And its not a small school, 420 kids in her class, so hopefully that would factor in as well.
MAC_32
Footballguy
If it's in an account under any of your names then they will find it. I've heard of some creative methods, but I wouldnt recommend any of them.
MAC_32
Footballguy
Does she have a specialty? If yes and you're looking at a smaller tier 2 school then despite efc not being a factor they may give it consideration. May take homework to find fits though. But public, especially big public, and tier 1 won't care. Relatively speaking anyway.
bigbottom
Footballguy
What I keep hearing is that at the most competitive schools, because there are so many ridiculous test scores, the essays are becoming extremely important (as is demonstrated interest for the reasons discussed up thread).
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The_Man
Footballguy
Just a reminder - if you're at Thanksgiving with any high school seniors, don't ask them about their college applications. It is a stressful time for them, and the last thing they want to talk about with other people. If your kid is a high school senior, try to bail them out of any such conversations.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
during my process with my daughter I talked to as many of the admin people as possible. They almost universally pointed to the essays.
There is this general feeling that the rest of the application for kids can all start to blend together. The grades look the same, the classes look the same, the test scores the same, the extra's the same but the essay appears to be on the one item they can use to try and separate the massive amount of kids coming in with fantastic applications.
Fishboy
Footballguy
Lol, exact opposite with my HS daughter. She's already accepted at the University of Alabama. She's excited to talk about college
But I totally get your point, as many of her classmates just sent off or will be applying soon and play the waiting game.
Tick
Footballguy
rockaction
Footballguy
I noticed this with my niece. Not at all wanting to talk about a process that was normally fodder for conversations past. Just not an option. Now that she's in, she'll talk your ear off, but she wanted nothing to do with it last year. If you ask, be sure you're on that level with them.
Fishboy
Footballguy
She wanted nothing to do with the state schools here in Wisconsin. Said it's just high school 2.0. For her it was all about the money and college experience. With her test scores, the out of state tuition ends up being the same as in state, so that was a wash.Tick said:
College experience? Roll Tide, enough said.
Lastly, she wants to be an Actuary. They have a 5 year accelerated Masters program.
I was hesitant thinking it was just some Podunk southern school, but their academics and student teacher ratio is solid. Campus is lights out beautiful as well.
Now she's applying for the presidential scholarships, so if she lands one of those, it's just icing on the cake.
The real downfall is it's so damn far from Wisconsin and the flight options are not cheap.
Fishboy
Footballguy
She is. It's serious business and serious money down there. My other daughter is at Louisville and in a sorority. I was hesitant at first but coming from out of state and not knowing anyone, it was a good thing imo.
The cost of a sorority at Alabama is easy 3-4 times the amount at Louisville though. I think that's what's driving her for additional scholarships. If she can get the school paid for, I'll pay the sorority.
bigbottom
Footballguy
I’m guessing she’s on top of it, but just in case - for sororities at big southern schools, girls have to start lining up recommendation letters from sorority chapter alumni and submit them in the summer before starting school. It’s more involved than getting into college! Okay, not really, but also not too far off.
Fishboy
Footballguy
Thanks. We recently learned that and she's preparing. It's all kind of a scam as my current daughters chapter is willing to write the letter as well which doesn't guarantee, but would heavily influence her chances.
Now that my current daughter has seen the behind the scenes of a recruiting class, she is shocked she got in in the the first place not knowing a soul. Now she's in one of elected positions the of her current sorority.
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