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College Admissions Questions (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter NewlyRetired
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Orange&Blue
Footballguy
my son is a hs freshman. how soon should we start looking at colleges, fafsa, etc?
El Floppo
Footballguy
From our standpoint with a HS Jr, freshman year was more about thinking about curriculum- what would be appropriate classes with an eye towards college as much as his interest, fun and mental well-being. Didn't want him loaded with extra hard classes top to bottom every semester, but wanted his transcript to read challenging but self-interested... If that makes sense.
Once my kid settled into HS through end of sophomore year and we saw what kind of student and person he was becoming, we started looking a little more closely at colleges this past summer, to start narrowing down schools that seemed a good fit for both aspects.
But it's never too early to think about finances... That's stuff you control, regardless of what your kid does in school.
Orange&Blue
Footballguy
we've been doing 529s, etc, but I don't know how much financial aid we would get. how do we go about doing that? i thought i recall that you shouldn't do a fafsa until you are actually ready
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
we started freshman year visiting college but nothing specific or any pressure, just pure visiting, no pressure, no hype, just a nice walk on nice campuses.
We did not focus on majors but more atmosphere. We showed her a city school, a country school, a suburban school etc, just so that she could get a rough idea of how each felt as she walked around.
As the years progressed in high school we added more visiting as she started to become more clear about a major.
By the time she was a junior she had a good feel for a small group of schools she wanted to apply to. It was much less stressful than applying to 20 or more that I know some kids do.
As for finances, the most important thing you can do is be EXTREMELY honest with your child and explain to them what you can and can not afford. Every one wants the "best" for their kids but reality will quickly set in for many. The great news is that our country is busting through the seams with great schools of all shapes, sizes and costs.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
we went into in depth years ago in this thread when my daughter was going through the process. Most of the comments then were the same as today.
The schools who are test optional are truly test optional. They do not in any way hold anything against a student who opts to not send in a test score.
=============
Please note that the schools who are test optional are not doing this out of the goodness of their heart, they also get benefits from this. By offering test optional, they almost certainly guarantee that the students who do submit test scores will raise the schools test average making the school look better in the publications since by almost definition the kids who don't submit test scores would have lowered the average.
El Floppo
Footballguy
I think a lot of schools have calculators on their websites.
El Floppo
Footballguy
As you're pointing out, The median test scores at the schools we're looking at are absolutely insane. Have risen a ton since test optional started... Which wasn't that long ago.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
As you go through the process, it is hard to not become jaded because it will become more and more evident the entire thing is one big game.
And it saddens me to know so many kids and parents get very depressed and disappointed in the process when there is always a good school waiting around the corner for a child. The need to get into "the good schools" has really perverted the entire process IMO.
El Floppo
Footballguy
Part of Flopoinho doing the SAT now as a Jr was just getting it out of the way, if possible. But my wife had a lot of concern about the uncertainties when it shifts to digital, which IIRC starts in the New Year.
He's always been a good paper test taker... But no idea how it would go for him solely on a computer. And as I understand it, the test shifts as you progress through it, depending on how you're doing.... does that sound right to anybody else?
He's always been a good paper test taker... But no idea how it would go for him solely on a computer. And as I understand it, the test shifts as you progress through it, depending on how you're doing.... does that sound right to anybody else?
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
oh, I did not know the SAT's were going digital. Is this country wide?
El Floppo
Footballguy
All 4 of the admissions folk on that panel we went to kept highlighting this. Relax. Don't stress. You'll get into a great school- the right school for you... Even if it's not the school you hoped/expected to go to.
El Floppo
Footballguy
Yes.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
I know it has been mentioned over the years in this thread but let me reiterate for newer readers.
DO NOT MIMIMIZE THE IMPORTANCE OF THE ESSAY
============
Related story:
When my daughter started the process, I mentally ranked all the application items in terms of importance. Grades, AP classes, test scores, extra curricular activities, awards, class rank etc etc all came out WAY ahead in terms of importance ahead of the essay.
I mentioned earlier that my daughter won a full ride to Trinity with 9 other applicants. When I asked the admissions head how they separated these 10 kids from what must have been a TON of great applications, he said "your Amanda's dad? For her she won via the essay"
I almost fell over. Even back then that was a ~$300k financial award, almost all for the essay.......
We came to learn in thread from the guys who were behind the curtain, that the essay is used by many schools as the tie breaker for not only rejecting kids but also for tie breakers for merit awards. One of our posters even told us we would not believe how poor some essays were that were attached to otherwise solid applications.
I also heard from another schools admission head who said the essay is an oasis in the admissions process. I guess the numbers from grades and test scores can all start to blend together when looking at 1000's of applications but the essay is the one unique item in each application that the admission office can get a small feel for the applicant that raw numbers can not give.
DO NOT MIMIMIZE THE IMPORTANCE OF THE ESSAY
============
Related story:
When my daughter started the process, I mentally ranked all the application items in terms of importance. Grades, AP classes, test scores, extra curricular activities, awards, class rank etc etc all came out WAY ahead in terms of importance ahead of the essay.
I mentioned earlier that my daughter won a full ride to Trinity with 9 other applicants. When I asked the admissions head how they separated these 10 kids from what must have been a TON of great applications, he said "your Amanda's dad? For her she won via the essay"
I almost fell over. Even back then that was a ~$300k financial award, almost all for the essay.......
We came to learn in thread from the guys who were behind the curtain, that the essay is used by many schools as the tie breaker for not only rejecting kids but also for tie breakers for merit awards. One of our posters even told us we would not believe how poor some essays were that were attached to otherwise solid applications.
I also heard from another schools admission head who said the essay is an oasis in the admissions process. I guess the numbers from grades and test scores can all start to blend together when looking at 1000's of applications but the essay is the one unique item in each application that the admission office can get a small feel for the applicant that raw numbers can not give.
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El Floppo
Footballguy
The panel talked about the essay in similar terms (but didn't mention scholarship ops from it- great info!).
They talked about wanting the application being "authentic" for the kids from top to bottom, and highlighted the essay as where the wheels really meet the road. Didn't need big words or to be verbose, just something that can paint a picture of who the kid is that numbers and data can't. They closed that segment saying "if you're not naturally funny, now it's NOT the time to try to be"
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
and for gods sake, check that you spelled "college" correctly. The amount of essays that spell it as "collage" as a typo is tragic
The panel talked about the essay in similar terms (but didn't mention scholarship ops from it- great info!).
They talked about wanting the application being "authentic" for the kids from top to bottom, and highlighted the essay as where the wheels really meet the road. Didn't need big words or to be verbose, just something that can paint a picture of who the kid is that numbers and data can't. They closed that segment saying "if you're not naturally funny, now it's NOT the time to try to be"
El Floppo
Footballguy
Another tidbit from the panel...
Letters of recommendations. Don't wait... Start forming (hopefully) genuine relationships early and be discernibly appreciative of their time. And start up front by asking whether they'd be willing to give you a positive recommendation. There was a huge gasp from the audience when they said they got lots of letters that said the kid was a fine student, etc... But NOT cut up for that particular school.
Letters of recommendations. Don't wait... Start forming (hopefully) genuine relationships early and be discernibly appreciative of their time. And start up front by asking whether they'd be willing to give you a positive recommendation. There was a huge gasp from the audience when they said they got lots of letters that said the kid was a fine student, etc... But NOT cut up for that particular school.
Orange&Blue
Footballguy
they require an essay now? good grief. i submitted gpa/act and that was that.
what is the essay supposed to be about?
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
The essays have been around for a few decades I think. Here are the essay prompts for this year
Applicant Support
Orange&Blue
Footballguy
I calculated SAI. So, the government thinks I can afford $65k/year for my first kids college education? lol... he is going to a community college.
Orange&Blue
Footballguy
So, it looks like every $5k my kid has in savings results in an increase of $1k in SAI. Income didn't seem to impact it at all.
it looks like for every $100k of my non-retirement savings the SAI went up $5k. looks like my baseline based on non-savings is $23k.
So i need to lose my brokerage account... lol
it looks like for every $100k of my non-retirement savings the SAI went up $5k. looks like my baseline based on non-savings is $23k.
So i need to lose my brokerage account... lol
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Galileo
Footballguy
This is important. As I teacher I try very hard to build relationships with my students, but it is a two way street. Admission folks can see through the BS or the generic nonsense. If I am going to write an effective letter of rec, it needs to be genuine. It needs to reflect a personalized account of that student's character, experiences and circumstances. This is difficult to do for a student you know only peripherally. It is not easy to suggest to a kid that I may not be the best person to write their letter recommendation, but I have done it on a few occasions. I would rather tell a kid to consider other options before I would want to write anything that may negatively impact their application. Sometimes a kid will plead their case tome or say they don't really have other good options. I make it clear that If I am going to write the letter, it is going to be an honest letter. If they still want me to do it, I will. I won't drag their name through the mud or anything, but at the same time it may not be a letter that will push their application to the top of the pile.
El Floppo
Footballguy
Yeah... They were around for basically all the schools when my older brother and I were applying in the early to mid 80s. Only one I didn't need an essay for was Cal... They had some kind of metric for SAT, GPA and athletic recruits. During my recruiting trip, the coach took me to the admissions office- they ran everything and I was in on the spot.The essays have been around for a few decades I think. Here are the essay prompts for this year
Applicant Support
appsupport.commonapp.org
I didn’t even bother doing FAFSA for my middle son and won’t for all years. It’s in state, so very reasonable. I told him that he wouldn’t have to take out any loans. My oldest got minimum loans each year because he went out of state and even with his scholarships, it was still a decent chunk over in state. He graduated in June and it’s less than a base level Camry, so not bad at all. The interest rates are low too. Third son has a couple years so we’ll see but I’m hoping in state.
The decision about whether to submit SAT scores is basically a math problem. The issue is that we generally don't have all the data we'd need to solve the problem, so we have to make some educated guesses and assumptions.
My assumptions:
If you agree with those assumptions, then the takeaway is that the overall pool of candidates who submit SATs is going to be much stronger than those who don't submit SATs.
A few years ago, someone posted data on a number of colleges showing the school's acceptance rate for candidates who submitted SATs vs. those who didn't submit SAT's.
There was one school (Vanderbilt I think) where there was almost no difference - like 7% for no-test candidates and 6% for test candidates. That's insane. It means that they're taking almost as many of the kids who averaged something like 1500 on the SAT as those who probably averaged like 1200-1300. For someone applying there, it probably only makes sense to submit a score if your kid is in the high 1500s.
Other schools had more reasonable ratios (maybe accepting at 1.5x to 2x the rate for those who submit scores). In that scenario, i think you submit if you're at or above the median acceptance score and probably don't if you're below it.
If the ratio gets up to 2.5x+ then you probably should submit as long as you're in the range that has any shot at all at being accepted.
My assumptions:
- People who do well on the test all submit their scores
- Many people who do poorly on the test will not submit their scores
- Those who do better on the test will also be higher achievers over all. There will obviously be many, many exceptions in both directions, but generally speaking, there are going to be big differences in the groups averages of kids getting 1500s vs. 1300s vs. 1100s across everything - grades, awards, extracurricular accomplishments, essay quality, etc.
If you agree with those assumptions, then the takeaway is that the overall pool of candidates who submit SATs is going to be much stronger than those who don't submit SATs.
A few years ago, someone posted data on a number of colleges showing the school's acceptance rate for candidates who submitted SATs vs. those who didn't submit SAT's.
There was one school (Vanderbilt I think) where there was almost no difference - like 7% for no-test candidates and 6% for test candidates. That's insane. It means that they're taking almost as many of the kids who averaged something like 1500 on the SAT as those who probably averaged like 1200-1300. For someone applying there, it probably only makes sense to submit a score if your kid is in the high 1500s.
Other schools had more reasonable ratios (maybe accepting at 1.5x to 2x the rate for those who submit scores). In that scenario, i think you submit if you're at or above the median acceptance score and probably don't if you're below it.
If the ratio gets up to 2.5x+ then you probably should submit as long as you're in the range that has any shot at all at being accepted.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
I agree with all your assumptions.
I don't know if you saw my post earlier about this topic but one piece you may not be considering when saying it is insane is that the schools have decades of historical data to look at and analyze. And many have found that the SAT's have little correlation to a students success both at college and beyond.
I think testing will always be around because the top tier schools still need some way to differentiate so many near perfect applications. But for the rest, it would not shock me if test optional continues to grow.
Yeah, that's fair.
Although for a highly selective school like Vanderbilt, it may be that the reason that SATs didn't correlate to success was that everyone they accepted had high SATs. So there may be no real difference between kids who get 1400 and 1500 on the SATs, but plenty of difference once they start letting in kids who didn't submit the test but got an 1100.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
I don't know for sure but my guess, from a 50000 foot view is this
schools have found that students with high test scores but average (for the school) everything else, did worse than students with lower test scores but above average (for the school) everything else.
One administrator told me it made no sense to value a three hour test on one given Saturday the same as what a student accomplished over a 4 year period.
bigbottom
Footballguy
For Vanderbilt, I wonder how Early Decision plays into those numbers. In other words, what is the mix of scores submitted vs. no scores submitted for ED applicants vs. non- ED applicants. Because that’s the most significant variable (15.7% acceptance rate vs 4.2%), depending on the mix may make it difficult to draw any conclusion from the data.
I'd agree with that, except that the things that they focus on the most are all pretty bad indicators...essays are highly dependent on how much help they got, grades are highly dependent on what teachers they had, etc. I would think that in-depth interviews would be a pretty good starting point (after all, that's what most businesses use as their main criteria), but maybe too time consuming. And if they want a better indicator than either SATs or grades of how much a student actually learned over the four years of high school...they should start actually looking at the scores kids get on AP tests, or use something like the 'achievement tests' which were given when I was in school, which essentially gave a normalized point of comparison for all kids who had taken a given class, regardless of school or teacher.
By the way, just dug up a more in-depth analysis I attempted a few years ago on whether to submit SAT scores or not: https://forums.footballguys.com/threads/college-admissions-questions.746450/page-63#post-23378000 (the data I reference was posted by someone else a page or two earlier than my post)
Good point, although like all of this semi-incomplete data, there might be confounding factors. I don't have super high confidence in this, but suspect that ED applicants skew stronger than regular decision applicants at most schools.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
I agree but I am also inclined to believe that if the schools are properly analyzing their data, which they have decades of, they would know which admission items predict success and which items do not.
I don't think you have to do that stuff yet.
But I think freshman and sophomore years in HS are a great opportunity to start semi-seriously exploring what kids enjoy and beginning to learn about how their interests can ultimately tie to college and to potential careers.
Here's a post I made on (more or less) this topic a while back: https://forums.footballguys.com/threads/college-admissions-questions.746450/page-63#post-23380741
I'm highly skeptical that many schools' admissions departments are doing a great job analyzing their data.
Galileo
Footballguy
Ha...as if anyone can legitimately differentiate between candidates whose scores are 1500 and a 1480. It's like saying a kid with a 90% in a course is different from a kid with an 89%, yet one gets an A the other gets a B. But that 90% kid and the 99% kid both get A's. It's all nonsense.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
I agree but this is the system we have and I doubt I will see any major changes in it in my lifetime.
Orange&Blue
Footballguy
Question, if we were to liquidate a bunch of brokerage money to pay off our house, would that show up on the SAI/FAFSA?
Obviously there would be some tax implications to consider.
Obviously there would be some tax implications to consider.
Battersbox
Footballguy
My somewhat educated guess: if you're in a position to liquidate brokerage assets to own your home free and clear, you're not going to get any aid outside of the minimum. There are other inputs of course, like if you have multiple kids who will be in college concurrently, but you're likely not getting anything. I suppose if you have a huge amount of debts and a very low net worth, you'd maybe qualify, but remember your income level plays a part as well.
In any case, in Illinois you HAVE to do the FAFSA to graduate, which is frustrating for many who already know they won't qualify for need-based aid. I would suggest you just fill it out and not stress about it because it's not really something which can be gamed, but I believe it IS required to get the minimum subsidized loans ($5,500, $6,500, $7500, $8,500 = $28k) over four years.
Any feel free to correct me on this, I'm not an expert.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
From a very high level, FAFSA does not look at home equity when considering assets, as they tend to be much more income based.
But note that the fafsa money is tiny in comparison to what the individual college may give for aid and the colleges tend to look at everything.
Oracle
Footballguy
My daughter is getting her PhD in Chem at MIT. She was accepted into all the top 10 programs. During her wine/ dine tours she made sure to visit/ inspect the labs she would work in. Apparently, quality of the lab was important to her.
TennesseeJed
Footballguy
Hey all, long-time lurker, but I have a question - noticing many of the engineering students in this thread.
Daughter is a senior who is interested in biomedical engineering. I think she has picked the reach schools she wants, and the safety schools - but I am not sure she is thrilled with her target schools.
She will be a competitive applicant at any school (4.0 unweighted, 36 ACT, 13 AP classes, good extracurriculars). She has identified certain characteristics she wants - mid-size-ish school (7-8k), good academics, but not cut-throat, and good research opportunities. We visited a few east/northeast schools, and she mostly decided that was not for her - different reasons for each, but after those visits her search was focused mostly in mid-west.
Her reach schools are Northwestern, Vandy, and Washington University St. Louis. Her target schools are primarily state schools - Michigan (between a reach and a target), Purdue, Illinois, NC State - and Lehigh. When push comes to shove, I don't think she really wants the size of the state universities - so, has anyone come across good engineering programs at mid-size schools? She is a bit introverted, and while the state schools are all very good - I am worried the size will overwhelm her.
Thanks!
Daughter is a senior who is interested in biomedical engineering. I think she has picked the reach schools she wants, and the safety schools - but I am not sure she is thrilled with her target schools.
She will be a competitive applicant at any school (4.0 unweighted, 36 ACT, 13 AP classes, good extracurriculars). She has identified certain characteristics she wants - mid-size-ish school (7-8k), good academics, but not cut-throat, and good research opportunities. We visited a few east/northeast schools, and she mostly decided that was not for her - different reasons for each, but after those visits her search was focused mostly in mid-west.
Her reach schools are Northwestern, Vandy, and Washington University St. Louis. Her target schools are primarily state schools - Michigan (between a reach and a target), Purdue, Illinois, NC State - and Lehigh. When push comes to shove, I don't think she really wants the size of the state universities - so, has anyone come across good engineering programs at mid-size schools? She is a bit introverted, and while the state schools are all very good - I am worried the size will overwhelm her.
Thanks!
TennesseeJed
Footballguy
Someone asked this at one of the tours we were on - and the admissions person did not really have an answer - but I think legacies, scholarship/recruited athletes, and major donors do impact the percentage of acceptances for ED.
My daughter has ultimately opted not to do ED - mostly because she is not quite ready to make a final commitment - but, she is still considering for ED 2 at Vanderbilt.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
I don't know if this is too far east for her, but has she considered RPI?
My niece and nephew were both top students and loved their experience at RPI.
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
Youngest got into Penn State but isn’t even exited about it. That’s 2 accepted and both turning it down.
At this point IM just going to enroll.
At this point IM just going to enroll.
Galileo
Footballguy
My first thought about the bolded is why are they her target schools? Target what you want!
You have Lehigh on the list which is not a big state school...maybe that becomes a leading candidate? Similar to Lehigh may be schools like Case Western reserve or Carnegie Melon? Johns Hopkins is a little bigger than these, but not as big as the large state schools. Some of these privates may be a little more in the "reach" category though.
FWIW, my son is at Purdue, and although it is a big university, it doesn't really feel that way.
ETA...Marquette may be another place for consideration
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TennesseeJed
Footballguy
Thanks! I will ask her if she has looked at RPI - I don't recall it coming up in discussion.
Sammy3469
Footballguy
Emory and Wake Forest would seemingly be another ones if you’re looking for smaller research schools.
TennesseeJed
Footballguy
Thanks!
Target - it's not really her "target". If you ask her, her target is one of her top-3 choices. But, acceptance rates being what they are, those are tough schools for all candidates. Beyond that, she was looking for good engineering programs, with higher acceptance rates. which tend to be larger universities - particularly with her wanting research opportunities as an undergrad. We have done lots of college visits - but, not to any of the bigger state schools - so I can't say for sure how she will react to that kind of atmosphere. Academically she would be fine - even with large class sizes, I am more worried about socially, and whether she would be so overwhelmed by the campus. She thinks she would be fine. We will be taking visits once she finds out where she gets accepted - even to schools we have already visited.
Lehigh was one I suggested she look at - we have family near Philadelphia, and this was one of the visits we did. I think it's a dark horse candidate for her - above the state universities. I was wondering if there were other schools that had a similar profile that she (or I) missed. (My search was pretty cursory)
Case Western had been on her list, but she talked to someone who went, and soured on it. Johns Hopkins was an early favorite of mine, we visited, and she liked the campus, and the size is about right, but in the end her impression of the students we saw while on tour was a bit "all work and no play". That was really the main difference between our tours of Vandy, NW, and WashU.
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TennesseeJed
Footballguy
We toured Emory - overwhelmed by Atlanta, and never warmed to the school itself. They have the 2nd campus away from Atlanta, but she was not a fan of doing 2 years there, then coming to the Atlanta campus as a new student.
I know she looked at Wake - I will have to ask her - it might be that she opted for NC State over Wake. State had a specific program that caught her attention.
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