ConstructionGuys and all you DIY -- Some advice (1 Viewer)

[gianmarco]

We recently built a home last year and an issue has come up and I'm not sure how major or minor it really is.

When looking at the front of our house, the back left corner of our lot slopes down.  Along the left side of our house, there is a very large/long retaining wall that runs the entire length of the house and wraps around.  When that retaining wall was built, there was a drain put behind it.  Also, along the relatively narrow area of grass (10 feet wide, maybe?) to the left of the wall, the county required we put in a very large drain that empties into that lower back left corner.

The issue:  Toward the back corner before the lot slopes downward, the grass and dirt is constantly saturated.  You can't walk on it without sinking in.  Looking at it doesn't make sense because it should just drain down into that corner but it's the higher area that is always wet.  It turns out that the drain behind the retaining wall just came out and is buried in that general area and is causing that constant saturation.  The grass is fine but it's impossible to mow with a mower because it's just mud all the time when you step there.  Aside from that, no issues as of yet. 

I wasn't sure if it was our irrigation system at first, but since it's now been winterized and there's no water in the system, it prompted me to call the builder who came out and figured out that it was this drain that never came out to drain into anything.

So, the question is whether or not something should be done about it.  He said he can probably locate that drain that is buried and connect it to that larger drain so that it all runs off down into that lowest dependent area.  He also said that it probably wouldn't make a difference whether it was done or not other than that one area wouldn't constantly be muddy/saturated (i.e. it'll just make the lower area more wet/muddy).  Truth is, it's not an area I ever walk by so it doesn't directly impact me.  But I have no idea if it could cause other problems and if it should be done.  I don't want him to waste time/money connecting these drains if it's really not an issue but if it is, then I'd definitely have him do it (no cost to me).

Thoughts?

TL;DR -- Pigeons.

 

[msommer]

Sounds like you need to connect the drain to a gabion. Major work though and your garden will look like #### while it is being dug

 

[boofatty]

Really tough to tell where the drain is in relation to the house/wall from your description.  I assume it's a buried drain behind the retaining wall.

But I'll summarize it this way, in this circumstance, water is bad; the water will make it's own path eventually and you'll have an erosion problem to deal with.  The problem you're having now will never go away and the soil will eventually get worse.  Maybe a bit grandiose here, but it could lead to structural issues with the wall.

If still under warranty, make him fix it.  If at your cost it's up to you; but it will be a slow degradation process.

 

[gianmarco]

Really tough to tell where the drain is in relation to the house/wall from your description.  I assume it's a buried drain behind the retaining wall.

But I'll summarize it this way, in this circumstance, water is bad; the water will make it's own path eventually and you'll have an erosion problem to deal with.  The problem you're having now will never go away and the soil will eventually get worse.  Maybe a bit grandiose here, but it could lead to structural issues with the wall.

If still under warranty, make him fix it.  If at your cost it's up to you; but it will be a slow degradation process.

It's a buried drain behind the retaining wall.  The drain comes out and is likely 5-6 feet outside the wall but the end of it is buried underground and not connected to anything.  Where it's likely buried is very close to where the other larger drain is and where it's all wet.  The wall itself is draining fine.

Here's an awful picture on paint trying to show it

Does that make more sense?

 

[GAlmgren]

The purpose of the drain is to keep hydrostatic pressure from building up behind the wall from too much water. The pipe should be allowed to drain, whether this is connecting to other storm sewer or even just daylighting it if the slope will allow it. How tall is the wall?

 

[Kev4029]

Generally, retaining walls aren't designed to take the additional hydrostatic pressure from ground water. I would absolutely have the contractor fix this or you might be without a retaining wall at some point.

 

[msommer]

It's a buried drain behind the retaining wall.  The drain comes out and is likely 5-6 feet outside the wall but the end of it is buried underground and not connected to anything.  Where it's likely buried is very close to where the other larger drain is and where it's all wet.  The wall itself is draining fine.

Here's an awful picture on paint trying to show it

Does that make more sense?

Man, you should have spent more time with crayons when you were a kid

That aside you need to connect the drain to a gabion or other way of allowing the water to build up in wet periods and drain away in dry perids, away from the wall

 

[gianmarco]

I actually found some photos when the work was being done.  Here you can see the area, the wall, the drain, etc.  Here is the link to the 3:

In the last picture, where the black drain is standing up is where the area is wet down to that tree to the left of it.  The main drain that runs down the side (not installed yet so not seen) runs a few feet to the right of the guy all the way down the side of the house and down to that corner of the lot.

Does that help?

 

[ChiefD]

Is there a little depression in that earth where it is always wet? 

And did they use solid drain pipe or the kind with holes in it? If there is a depression there, it's possible the water is pooling there are not making the slope. Might have to restructure that part of it.

 

[ChiefD]

I actually found some photos when the work was being done.  Here you can see the area, the wall, the drain, etc.  Here is the link to the 3:

In the last picture, where the black drain is standing up is where the area is wet down to that tree to the left of it.  The main drain that runs down the side (not installed yet so not seen) runs a few feet to the right of the guy all the way down the side of the house and down to that corner of the lot.

Does that help?

Do you have a sump pump that also drains to that side of the house?

 

[ChiefD]

I actually found some photos when the work was being done.  Here you can see the area, the wall, the drain, etc.  Here is the link to the 3:

In the last picture, where the black drain is standing up is where the area is wet down to that tree to the left of it.  The main drain that runs down the side (not installed yet so not seen) runs a few feet to the right of the guy all the way down the side of the house and down to that corner of the lot.

Does that help?

Man, looks like that would be impossible to be wet all the time. That thing should drain well. 

 

[gianmarco]

Do you have a sump pump that also drains to that side of the house?

Yes.  The sump pump is on that side at the front of the house (where the wall begins).

 

[gianmarco]

Man, looks like that would be impossible to be wet all the time. That thing should drain well. 

I know.  And you'd think it would be the lower area, but that area is actually usually dry.  Here is a picture showing the drain opening looking up toward the house from the backyard.  I circled in red the area that is always wet.  As you can see, it's not near the wall itself, but there's no reason that area should be so wet you can't walk on it as you'd think it drains down.  This is why he thinks the drain is buried right near there. 

Wet area

 

[ChiefD]

Yes.  The sump pump is on that side at the front of the house (where the wall begins).

How often is your sump pump going off?

 

[gianmarco]

How often is your sump pump going off?

When it rains, a lot (every few minutes).  Otherwise, virtually not at all.

 

[ChiefD]

When it rains, a lot (every few minutes).  Otherwise, virtually not at all.

Ok. For me, that doesn't look to me like a drainage issue from your drain system. It looks like something is leaking underground there. Maybe a sprinkler pipe with a nick in it, or a joint right there that is leaking. 

If it stops over the winter now that your system is blown out, you have your answer.

 

[gianmarco]

Ok. For me, that doesn't look to me like a drainage issue from your drain system. It looks like something is leaking underground there. Maybe a sprinkler pipe with a nick in it, or a joint right there that is leaking. 

It can't be the sprinkler.  It's winterized and there is no water in the system.  In fact, the sprinkler guys said to check to see if it dries up after they did it and if it did, then it likely WAS the sprinklers.  But it's remained soaked over a month after being emptied.  I thought it might be an issue with the main drain as well but when the site supervisor came out that built the house, he was positive it was from the drain behind the retaining wall that just wasn't opened to daylight.  He also said it would be relatively easy to find and then connect but he said in the end it's probably not going to help anything other than dry out that area and shift it to being more wet down in the lower area. 

Which is why if there's no danger to leaving it as is, I'm not looking to waste his time or money. 

 

[tommyboy]

you have a #### ton of water piling up there, yes its a major problem.   someone needs to fix it asap

 

[ChiefD]

It can't be the sprinkler.  It's winterized and there is no water in the system.  In fact, the sprinkler guys said to check to see if it dries up after they did it and if it did, then it likely WAS the sprinklers.  But it's remained soaked over a month after being emptied.  I thought it might be an issue with the main drain as well but when the site supervisor came out that built the house, he was positive it was from the drain behind the retaining wall that just wasn't opened to daylight.  He also said it would be relatively easy to find and then connect but he said in the end it's probably not going to help anything other than dry out that area and shift it to being more wet down in the lower area. 

Which is why if there's no danger to leaving it as is, I'm not looking to waste his time or money. 

Do you know where your main water line comes into the house? Is it on that side also?

 

[El Floppo]

Man, you should have spent more time with crayons when you were a kid

That aside you need to connect the drain to a gabion or other way of allowing the water to build up in wet periods and drain away in dry perids, away from the wall

nice with the gabion.

When it rains, a lot (every few minutes).  Otherwise, virtually not at all.

Ok. For me, that doesn't look to me like a drainage issue from your drain system. It looks like something is leaking underground there. Maybe a sprinkler pipe with a nick in it, or a joint right there that is leaking. 

If it stops over the winter now that your system is blown out, you have your answer.

or... spitballing... it could be some kind of sub-surface damming. like concrete slop or some other construction material ended up forming a bit of a wall there collecting water.

 

[gianmarco]

Do you know where your main water line comes into the house? Is it on that side also?

Yes, but it comes in at the front of the house from the front yard.  At the top of that retaining wall (front corner of the house) is where the sump pump is and the main water line.  There is nothing else at the bottom of the wall where the problem is.  Just the big drain, the retaining wall, and the sprinkler system.  And it's definitely not the latter. 

I'm probably going to have him do it anyway to make sure it's not a bigger issue so they can see what they find when they dig in the area.

 

[mr roboto]

It looks like the wet area is ouside the retaining wall and a good bit away from your foundation so no water issues there. I'd dig it up and try to find the source myself but wouldn't worry too much about long term damage (unless it erodes to the point it undermines the retaining wall). 

 

[boofatty]

I know.  And you'd think it would be the lower area, but that area is actually usually dry.  Here is a picture showing the drain opening looking up toward the house from the backyard.  I circled in red the area that is always wet.  As you can see, it's not near the wall itself, but there's no reason that area should be so wet you can't walk on it as you'd think it drains down.  This is why he thinks the drain is buried right near there. 

Wet area

So in this picture, is there supposed to be another discharge similar to the one to the left?  Seems that way.  Also appears that your whole backyard is intended to be a detention pond.  If so it will always be saturated, likely the whole area after big rains.

I'm assuming you've got the end of that large pipe right in the wet area, they graded over it and it will eventually give way.  He needs to fix it and put a proper discharge there.  

Also noticed there's no stone at the end.  the area around both pipes will be a muddy mess after every rain.  They're designed to be that way.

ETA: were there any design drawings or permits submitted?  Blocking the rain water discharge is a big problem; those systems are designed to behave a certain way to prevent other problems from occurring.

 

[gianmarco]

So in this picture, is there supposed to be another discharge similar to the one to the left?  Seems that way.  Also appears that your whole backyard is intended to be a detention pond.  If so it will always be saturated, likely the whole area after big rains.

I'm assuming you've got the end of that large pipe right in the wet area, they graded over it and it will eventually give way.  He needs to fix it and put a proper discharge there.  

Also noticed there's no stone at the end.  the area around both pipes will be a muddy mess after every rain.  They're designed to be that way.

ETA: were there any design drawings or permits submitted?  Blocking the rain water discharge is a big problem; those systems are designed to behave a certain way to prevent other problems from occurring.

No, the large pipe (I believe it's a 4 ft drain, btw) goes down the side of the house then turns in and finally ends where the large discharge is.  There was not supposed to be another discharge.  I guess a worry is that where it turns (which is right around where the wet area is), maybe it's leaking there. 

I just went outside and took some pictures (the ones above are from last year right as it was being built). 

The blue line is where the drain path is (roughly), the red area is the muddy soaked area.    In the other picture without my crayola markings, you can see 2 drain access covers and the discharge.  The wet area is not where that drain runs.  That area is also more wet than the lowest area where the discharge is.  We just had rain yesterday and I can't even walk in that spot

 

[boofatty]

No, the large pipe (I believe it's a 4 ft drain, btw) goes down the side of the house then turns in and finally ends where the large discharge is.  There was not supposed to be another discharge.  I guess a worry is that where it turns (which is right around where the wet area is), maybe it's leaking there. 

I just went outside and took some pictures (the ones above are from last year right as it was being built). 

The blue line is where the drain path is (roughly), the red area is the muddy soaked area.    In the other picture without my crayola markings, you can see 2 drain access covers and the discharge.  The wet area is not where that drain runs.  That area is also more wet than the lowest area where the discharge is.  We just had rain yesterday and I can't even walk in that spot

Aha, making much more sense now.  The water is leaving the pipe at the bend rather than the discharge, which means they broke it during install.  Or, (couldn't tell from the pic if it was perforated pipe or not) they didn't install with enough fall in the line and the water is collecting at the bend, then seeping out.  In time you will have a new discharge location there at the wet spot if it isn't fixed.  Bottom line is the pipe he installed isn't working as intended.  He should fix at no cost to you.  If you don't, the water will erode your yard eventually.

 

[berndog]

I would get a second opinion from another company and see what they say.  Your builder will downplay any issues because any work they do now is going to cost them money. 

 

[gianmarco]

Aha, making much more sense now.  The water is leaving the pipe at the bend rather than the discharge, which means they broke it during install.  Or, (couldn't tell from the pic if it was perforated pipe or not) they didn't install with enough fall in the line and the water is collecting at the bend, then seeping out.  In time you will have a new discharge location there at the wet spot if it isn't fixed.  Bottom line is the pipe he installed isn't working as intended.  He should fix at no cost to you.  If you don't, the water will erode your yard eventually.

Thanks, that's what I'm worried about too but don't know enough about it. Could it be from the drain in the retaining wall based on the pictures here?

 

[boofatty]

Thanks, that's what I'm worried about too but don't know enough about it. Could it be from the drain in the retaining wall based on the pictures here?

Doubtful to me that it's the wall drain, they don't typically collect enough water fast enough to do that much damage.  i think you have a concentrated amount of water at that location.  Looked at your pics again, the only other thing I noticed in the pictures was the downspout/rain leader.  Sometimes they pipe those to open discharge onto the soil which may be what you're seeing, but you should see an open ended pipe nearby, maybe covered by dirt.   But in this case they may have tied it into the main drain line.  Which, now that I think about it could be what's going on - the rain leader tie into the main pipe came loose or is damaged.  When back filling it's very easy to knock one of those loose, especially if they rushed it, which happens a lot.  The downspout would collect and discharge enough water after a rain to cause that kind of wet spot.

If you look at one of the first pics you shared, you can see what looks like a green 4-6" pipe, I think near the wet spot.  Tough to tell but that may be another rain leader from your gutters. and it looks like it open discharges rather than tie into the main.  Do you know what that is connected to?

Gutters and downspouts collect water and discharge in high volume, they're piped underground usually, but not always piped into a main.

Looking more and more like downspout/rain leader issue.

 

[gianmarco]

Doubtful to me that it's the wall drain, they don't typically collect enough water fast enough to do that much damage.  i think you have a concentrated amount of water at that location.  Looked at your pics again, the only other thing I noticed in the pictures was the downspout/rain leader.  Sometimes they pipe those to open discharge onto the soil which may be what you're seeing, but you should see an open ended pipe nearby, maybe covered by dirt.   But in this case they may have tied it into the main drain line.  Which, now that I think about it could be what's going on - the rain leader tie into the main pipe came loose or is damaged.  When back filling it's very easy to knock one of those loose, especially if they rushed it, which happens a lot.  The downspout would collect and discharge enough water after a rain to cause that kind of wet spot.

If you look at one of the first pics you shared, you can see what looks like a green 4-6" pipe, I think near the wet spot.  Tough to tell but that may be another rain leader from your gutters. and it looks like it open discharges rather than tie into the main.  Do you know what that is connected to?

Gutters and downspouts collect water and discharge in high volume, they're piped underground usually, but not always piped into a main.

Looking more and more like downspout/rain leader issue.

It's supposed to tie into the main drain but you're right, that may definitely be what's going on and makes sense.  Thanks.

 

[gianmarco]

Doubtful to me that it's the wall drain, they don't typically collect enough water fast enough to do that much damage.  i think you have a concentrated amount of water at that location.  Looked at your pics again, the only other thing I noticed in the pictures was the downspout/rain leader.  Sometimes they pipe those to open discharge onto the soil which may be what you're seeing, but you should see an open ended pipe nearby, maybe covered by dirt.   But in this case they may have tied it into the main drain line.  Which, now that I think about it could be what's going on - the rain leader tie into the main pipe came loose or is damaged.  When back filling it's very easy to knock one of those loose, especially if they rushed it, which happens a lot.  The downspout would collect and discharge enough water after a rain to cause that kind of wet spot.

If you look at one of the first pics you shared, you can see what looks like a green 4-6" pipe, I think near the wet spot.  Tough to tell but that may be another rain leader from your gutters. and it looks like it open discharges rather than tie into the main.  Do you know what that is connected to?

Gutters and downspouts collect water and discharge in high volume, they're piped underground usually, but not always piped into a main.

Looking more and more like downspout/rain leader issue.

Update --

So, with the weather and other timing stuff, they weren't able to come out until this past weekend.  Opened up the main drain cover near the downspout and then poured some water into the downspout and confirmed that the water was running just fine into the main drain.  It's definitely tied into it.  It was also coming out through the bottom drain.  That part was fine.  Then, they agreed that checking the main drain to make sure it wasn't damaged when being backfilled, especially where it turns at a 45 angle, was the next likely so they started digging.  The main drain was fine but all the ground around it was still fully saturated.  So they kept digging a little more and found the problem.

The foundation drain was never opened to air.  They found that drain a little deeper and it just ended there.  And, since this was the most dependent area, essentially the entire foundation drainage area was going into that part of our lot.  It ended right into the area that is completely saturated (still wet despite cold temps and virtually no rain for a while).  They were also able to locate the retaining wall drain (even though they agreed this should have minimal output) and exposed both of those so that they are now open to air.  They aren't sure why the foundation drain was covered up like that as that happened very early in the building process but nevertheless should fix the problem. 

 

[The Z Machine]

Glad to hear it seems to be resolved.  Take a photo and show us the damage to the landscaping.

 

[El Floppo]

Glad to hear it seems to be resolved.  Take a photo and show us the damage to the landscaping.

sorry gian, but  

 

[gianmarco]

Glad to hear it seems to be resolved.  Take a photo and show us the damage to the landscaping.

Here you go

We actually just had rain last night and you can see a puddle at that lower drain (foundation drain). 

So, do we just leave the drains like that or anything to make it more cosmetically appealing? 

 

[boofatty]

Here you go

We actually just had rain last night and you can see a puddle at that lower drain (foundation drain). 

So, do we just leave the drains like that or anything to make it more cosmetically appealing? 

Was wondering if you'd post an update.  Glad it seems to be solved.  So they piped multiple foundation drains to discharge at one point then covered it up.  That would explain the volume of water trying to discharge.  Now that you know roughly how much water is leaving that pipe, I'd just keep an eye on it and make sure it doesn't flow fast enough to erode a spot away.  It shouldn't, but given what happened that thing seems to collect a lot of water.