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Copyright trial date for Stairway to Heaven set for May 10th (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Galileo
- Start date
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
My first thought was to ask how something like this wouldn't be barred by laches, but the Supreme Court disagreed with me in 2014, apparently.
Joe Summer
Footballguy
I'll be shocked if Zep loses this one. The entire lawsuit is based on 3 similar notes at the beginning of the song -- everything else about "Stairway" is different from "Taurus". And those 3 same notes can be found in dozens of other songs. (In fact, it's likely that both Randy California and Jimmy Page were inspired by the same source material -- "Cry Me A River" by Davy Graham, from 1960.)
Much of the plaintiff's case is based on really weak conjecture (i.e., "Zep played the same festival as Spirit so Jimmy Page must have heard 'Taurus' at that time" or "Jimmy Page owned the Spirit album in 2015 so therefore he must have also owned it in 1969").
Much of the plaintiff's case is based on really weak conjecture (i.e., "Zep played the same festival as Spirit so Jimmy Page must have heard 'Taurus' at that time" or "Jimmy Page owned the Spirit album in 2015 so therefore he must have also owned it in 1969").
Grace Under Pressure
Footballguy
BS money grab
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
There is a three-year SOL in copyright actions. But there is also, "separate accrual" each time the alleged infringer releases the material. The estate would only be entitled to a fraction of earnings from 3 years before the action was filed, but they could keep suing every three years until either the copyright expires in 2063 or the song ceases to be distributed/played/etc. Most likely (if the estate wins, which I take no position on), Lep Zep would have to pony up for a global settlement going forward.
Joe Summer
Footballguy
There's no statute of limitations, but if you win the case then you can only collect royalties from the previous 3 years (plus any royalties going forward).
Mr. Ected
Footballguy
They were able to file the suit when Led Zeppelin re-released the song a couple years ago as a remaster.
Pipes
Footballguy
Galileo
Footballguy
Reuters article
What type of contract would they have entered into with Wolfe back in '67 that would address payment of damages?
Why is John Paul Jones given a pass?
What type of contract would they have entered into with Wolfe back in '67 that would address payment of damages?
tdoss
Footballguy
![[scooter]](/data/avatars/m/22/22287.jpg?1659477690){kind=avatar}
[scooter]
Footballguy
Jones is given a pass because he does not own any part of the copyright for "Stairway To Heaven" (the song was written by Page & Plant only).
As for Wolfe/California, he never entered into a contract with Led Zeppelin. He entered into a contract with his music publisher (Hollenbeck Music). Zep was arguing that Wolfe's estate had no basis to sue because the song was written for Hollenbeck Music, and therefore Hollenbeck Music is the only entity that could make a copyright claim against Zep.
Zeppelin ripped off so many bands that it wouldn't surprise me if this were true.
See Link Link2. Several other vids demonstrating that Zeppelin plagiarized some of their most popular songs have been shut down.
I really like Zeppelin, but lost a lot of respect for them after learning of their plagiarism.
See Link Link2. Several other vids demonstrating that Zeppelin plagiarized some of their most popular songs have been shut down.
I really like Zeppelin, but lost a lot of respect for them after learning of their plagiarism.
The Future Champs
Footballguy
That chord progression is obvious, but that's all I hear. However, I have zero music training.
tdoss
Footballguy
tdoss
Footballguy
Led Zeppelin is probably my favorite band of all time.
With that being said...I highly doubt that Jimmy Page did not lift that intro from hearing Spirit do it during that tour.
It's got some changes to it...maybe enough to skirt the law...but it's fairly obvious it was an adaptation of that intro.
There's just too many similarities from chord progression, tonality, meter/timing...it's just too on the nose in too many respects.
Whether or not it's enough to warrant plagiarism...I have no idea...
With that being said...I highly doubt that Jimmy Page did not lift that intro from hearing Spirit do it during that tour.
It's got some changes to it...maybe enough to skirt the law...but it's fairly obvious it was an adaptation of that intro.
There's just too many similarities from chord progression, tonality, meter/timing...it's just too on the nose in too many respects.
Whether or not it's enough to warrant plagiarism...I have no idea...
zamboni
Footballguy
For the guitar guys, let the ghost of Ronnie James Dio break it down for the attorneys: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCEg9gMJakU
I'm no copyright attorney - or an accomplished musician - but I've never seen a clear ripoff here. As Dio states, lots of songs use the same chord structure as these two - it's the tone/texture that stands out as the major similarity, but that's about it.
Spirit is likely going for a money grab, which is unfortunate because they were a fantastic band that never seemed to make much money in their time.
I'm no copyright attorney - or an accomplished musician - but I've never seen a clear ripoff here. As Dio states, lots of songs use the same chord structure as these two - it's the tone/texture that stands out as the major similarity, but that's about it.
Spirit is likely going for a money grab, which is unfortunate because they were a fantastic band that never seemed to make much money in their time.
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-fish-
Footballguy
It's not even the band. It's the kids of the deceased guitarist going for a money grab.
zamboni
Footballguy
Joe Summer
Footballguy
He never performed "Stairway" with Page & Plant, either (aside from a partial version on a Japanese TV show). He's really only performed the song 3 times in the past 35 years -- with Page & Jones at Live Aid, at the Atlantic Records 40th Anniversary Concert, and at the 2007 Zep reunion.
I don't think Plant is avoiding the song because he thinks it's special. I think he's avoiding it because he doesn't like it all that much.
Insein
Footballguy
Rove!
Footballguy
Buzzbait
Footballguy
The plaintiff is willing to drop the lawsuit for $1 if Zeppelin will give Randy California a writing credit. Gee, what a bargain <sarcasm>. I don't know what a writing credit on future earnings for Stairway will be but I'm willing to guess it's something in the "truckload" range.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-04-26/led-zeppelin-can-exit-stairway-suit-for-just-1
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-04-26/led-zeppelin-can-exit-stairway-suit-for-just-1
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Joe Summer
Footballguy
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
Led Zeppelin Wins ‘Stairway to Heaven’ Copyright Trial
http://www.msn.com/en-us/music/news/led-zeppelin-wins-‘stairway-to-heaven’-copyright-trial/ar-AAhxJpz?ocid=spartanntp
"Plant pleaded fuzzy memory while testifying during the trial, telling the court, “I’ve no recollection of almost anybody I’ve ever hung out with.” (Plant's story and he's sticking with it - though, I can sort of actually believe this).
http://www.msn.com/en-us/music/news/led-zeppelin-wins-‘stairway-to-heaven’-copyright-trial/ar-AAhxJpz?ocid=spartanntp
"Plant pleaded fuzzy memory while testifying during the trial, telling the court, “I’ve no recollection of almost anybody I’ve ever hung out with.” (Plant's story and he's sticking with it - though, I can sort of actually believe this).
-fish-
Footballguy
They were trying to have him recall whether he met the guitarist from Taurus on a specific night at a specific club 40 years ago...on a night where Plant and his wife got in a car accident on the way home.
Joe Summer
Footballguy
The jury acknowledged that the band DID have access to the song (whether it was through Jimmy's record collection, or through Page and/or Plant seeing them live), but concluded that the two songs were not substantially similar.
Tom Servo
Nittany Beavers
Yeah, you try to pin me down like that, I'm probably not going to know for certain one way or the other.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
Referring to his quote, which is simultaneously amusing and tenable given their preceding rep of standout excess even by the standards of an excessive decade (not that Keith Moon was a piker).
“I’ve no recollection of almost anybody I’ve ever hung out with.”
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-fish-
Footballguy
-fish-
Footballguy
Page recorded everything. He had recordings of the original first few riffs, collaboration with JPJ, then Plant trying to fit lyrics to it, before the band even attempted to play it as a song. They had dozens of recordings showing how they wrote the music and lyrics and how it evolved from Page's initial thoughts. All of that got played for the jury. There was no way they were going to be able to say that they ripped it off.
beer 30
Footballguy
How cool would it have been to be a juror, wonder how people have ever seen/heard that stuff.
update:
Led Zeppelin ordered to go back on trial in 'Stairway to Heaven' copyright lawsuit
A federal appeals court in San Francisco has overturned a 2016 jury verdict.
https://www.nbcnews.com/pop-culture/music/led-zeppelin-ordered-go-back-trial-stairway-heaven-copyright-lawsuit-n914831
The jury in the 2016 trial found that the two songs were not substantially similar.
But the federal appeals court panel that overturned the 2016 ruling held that parts of the jury instructions in that trial were erroneous and prejudicial. The appeals court also found that the U.S. district court that decided the first trial abused its discretion by not allowing recordings of "Taurus" to be played during the proceedings.
Led Zeppelin ordered to go back on trial in 'Stairway to Heaven' copyright lawsuit
A federal appeals court in San Francisco has overturned a 2016 jury verdict.
https://www.nbcnews.com/pop-culture/music/led-zeppelin-ordered-go-back-trial-stairway-heaven-copyright-lawsuit-n914831
The jury in the 2016 trial found that the two songs were not substantially similar.
But the federal appeals court panel that overturned the 2016 ruling held that parts of the jury instructions in that trial were erroneous and prejudicial. The appeals court also found that the U.S. district court that decided the first trial abused its discretion by not allowing recordings of "Taurus" to be played during the proceedings.
Galileo
Footballguy
skol asylum
Footballguy
If Page and Plant need some cash to pay out on this lawsuit they can just sue Greta Van Fleet themselves.
Final update:
First:
A Ninth Circuit ruling siding with Led Zeppelin in its copyright battle over “Stairway to Heaven” could erect more legal hurdles for future plaintiffs pursuing infringement claims against large music labels.
The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit rescinded its “inverse ratio rule,” which some attorneys said made it easier for courts to find that famous works infringe on more obscure ones. The rule held that a party’s requirement to show similarity is lowered when it can produce more evidence of the infringer’s access to its original work.
The appeals court, whose jurisdiction includes the music publishing hotbed of Los Angeles, also upheld a trial court’s decision not to let a jury hear the full recording of the allegedly infringed song —the band Spirit’s “Taurus.”
The full court reversed its three-judge panel’s ruling and affirmed a jury’s conclusion that Led Zeppelin didn’t infringe on “Taurus.” The ruling could help recording companies and artists better fend off copyright infringement lawsuits, attorneys say.
Then, Today:
Led Zeppelin's copyright victory stands as Supreme Court declines to hear the appeal of the trust of the band Spirit's guitarist, which claims the famous "Stairway to Heaven" opening riff ripped of their song.
First:
A Ninth Circuit ruling siding with Led Zeppelin in its copyright battle over “Stairway to Heaven” could erect more legal hurdles for future plaintiffs pursuing infringement claims against large music labels.
The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit rescinded its “inverse ratio rule,” which some attorneys said made it easier for courts to find that famous works infringe on more obscure ones. The rule held that a party’s requirement to show similarity is lowered when it can produce more evidence of the infringer’s access to its original work.
The appeals court, whose jurisdiction includes the music publishing hotbed of Los Angeles, also upheld a trial court’s decision not to let a jury hear the full recording of the allegedly infringed song —the band Spirit’s “Taurus.”
The full court reversed its three-judge panel’s ruling and affirmed a jury’s conclusion that Led Zeppelin didn’t infringe on “Taurus.” The ruling could help recording companies and artists better fend off copyright infringement lawsuits, attorneys say.
Then, Today:
Led Zeppelin's copyright victory stands as Supreme Court declines to hear the appeal of the trust of the band Spirit's guitarist, which claims the famous "Stairway to Heaven" opening riff ripped of their song.
zamboni
Footballguy
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