Insein
Footballguy
http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/features/rumors#TOP
Hold out hope for another week or 2? Maybe Crabtree becomes useful.
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Crabtree and Westbrook may benefit from new OC (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Insein
- Start date
Hank Mardukas
Footballguy
No one in the NFL has a bigger fork sticking out of his back than Westbrook. If he starts eating into Gore's carries I'm going to be really pissed off.
Football Jones
Footballguy
I don't see how involving Westbrook would really help, but they do need to get Crabtree going & see what they got.
The thing with Crabtree is his work ethic & separation skills. Very, very few players are good enough to compete in today's NFL if they don't work at it. Especially at WR. Long gone are the days of players taking odd jobs in the offseason to make ends meet & not working out until training camp gets underway.
If everyone else did that, it would be fine. That's not the case, though. I admit I don't know what his offseason routine is, but judging by what I've heard, I'm guessing he's lazy. Crabtree can be a good WR, but he better get serious. Study film & all that.
I partly blame his QB situation & unimaginative offense, but Crabtree is far from blameless. If I were the 49ers, I'd target him 15 times this week & see what he can do.
The thing with Crabtree is his work ethic & separation skills. Very, very few players are good enough to compete in today's NFL if they don't work at it. Especially at WR. Long gone are the days of players taking odd jobs in the offseason to make ends meet & not working out until training camp gets underway.
If everyone else did that, it would be fine. That's not the case, though. I admit I don't know what his offseason routine is, but judging by what I've heard, I'm guessing he's lazy. Crabtree can be a good WR, but he better get serious. Study film & all that.
I partly blame his QB situation & unimaginative offense, but Crabtree is far from blameless. If I were the 49ers, I'd target him 15 times this week & see what he can do.
I would agree with you regarding Crabtree if he was getting the targets and was doing nothing with them. But that doesn't seem to be the case. Physically/talent/skill wise he is elite. He has the tools to be a top 3 WR in the league. And remember, this is only his 2nd year in the league. WR take time to develop, there used to be a saying that you want WR in their 3rd year because that's when they usually breakout. No one knows what will happen with Crabtree, and very few of us know what his work ethic is since we are not there. But with this level of talent, if you have him in dynasty leagues, then you must keep him and not panic. The #1 receiver in today's game, Andre Johnson, had these type of numbers his first 2 years:Year 1 age 22: 16 games started, 66 receptions for 976 yards, and 4 TDsYear 2 age 23: 16 games started, 79 receptions for 1142 yards and 6 TDsHere is Crabtree's first year:11 games started, 48 receptions for 625 yards and 2 TDsIf you pro-rate that for 16 games, it would be:69 receptions for 906 yards and 3 TDsHis first year in the league was almost exact to Andre Johnson's. Now, of course we can project that he will turn into Andre Johnson, but the kid has Andre Johnson's talent, so the potential is there. WR is a position that you need to show patience in dynasty formats.
Fullback Fro
yesno
As a niner season ticket holder, If Westbrook gives them anything I will be over joyed. Westbrook still has gas left in the tank.
The niners moving to a spread offense. Westbrook has consistently been an dynamic receiving threat. Not that hard to put the two together. With regards to Crabtree, please provide any link to show that Crabtree doesn't work in the off season. What is it that you've "heard" that makes you think he's lazy.
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I have cautious optimism for both. I did not think much of Vernon Davis, either (alligator arms and uninvolved in the offense), until the Niners started force-feeding him last year. And if the Niners consistently target Crabtree 10+ times, good things can happen.
The downside on Westbrook, if I recall correctly, was his concussion history, not his burst. So I am not convinced he is done as an explosive player. We certainly haven't seen the Niners use him very well in the preseason and the first three games this season. It's like when the Cardinals first worked in Beanie last year - every play Westbrook takes the field, you know the ball is going to Westbrook. Only where Beanie would get like 5-8 of those plays a game last year, Westbrook gets 1-2. I do think Westbrook and Gore on the field at the same time could create matchup problems.
The downside on Westbrook, if I recall correctly, was his concussion history, not his burst. So I am not convinced he is done as an explosive player. We certainly haven't seen the Niners use him very well in the preseason and the first three games this season. It's like when the Cardinals first worked in Beanie last year - every play Westbrook takes the field, you know the ball is going to Westbrook. Only where Beanie would get like 5-8 of those plays a game last year, Westbrook gets 1-2. I do think Westbrook and Gore on the field at the same time could create matchup problems.
Football Jones
Footballguy
I'd rather throw the ball to Gore at this stage of Westbrook's career, but we'll see if he can help them. As far as Crabtree, I already admitted I don't know his offseason routine. That said, as an FF owner, you put things together & make conclusions the best you can. My opinion is he's not a hard worker as evidenced by several reports, all of which I don't have handy. One in particular was that he didn't take practice seriously.Like I said, I don't have proof, but a dollar to a doughnut says this guy didn't apply himself like he should've this past offseason. One FFer's opinion.
Football Jones
Footballguy
I think you misread my post a little bit. I believe Crabtree has big-time potential, but he needs to work at it. At this point, there's some doubt as to whether he's doing that, IMO.The only natural skill he may be lacking in is separation, but that can be partly overcome by technique. Like I said, I hope they target him a bunch & see how he fares.
Limp Ditka
Footballguy
Then again, they may not.
Hank Mardukas
Footballguy
Maybe Crabtree got complacent once he got his payday, but I heard Mike Leach say Crabtree was the hardest working player he ever coached, outside of Wes Welker. Leach said Crab was the first guy to practice, last guy to leave type at Texas Tech. Maybe he's changed, but it's hard to believe a guy would be that kind of hard worker in college and then just completely slack once he got to the NFL, where the level of competition is so much higher. :X
dwashington
Footballguy
Was Crabtree a Singletary selection or was that decision made before Singletary got the head coach job?
Limp Ditka
Footballguy
beforeETA - oops, he was the HC at the time. Doesn't mean he was a Singletary selection though
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This is interesting:
Not sure how much is on Crabtree, but it is an interesting stat. It would be nice to get a reliable film guru/scout's opinion of Crabtree's separation skills as opposed to average Joe comment posters. One thing I've noticed about Alex Smith that does not show in these stats is that he has horrible ball placement. I'd add that he checks down way too quick, too, but it's hard to separate that from the O line without sitting there and timing how long he has to throw.
DoubleG
Footballguy
I'll say what I think many feel - and that is the only thing that is going to help Crabtree be succesful at the NFL level is to get an NFL QB throwing him the ball. All you have to do is look at Fitz's production post-Warner. The fact is a WR can only do so much - he depends on his QB to get him the ball in a way that he can make the cathc and create yardage after catching the ball.I think Crabtree's production will be inconsistant, at best, until Alex Smith is no longer his QB.
loose circuits
Footballguy
I'd like to see a personnel grouping of Gore, Crabs, Vernon Davis, Westbrook, and Delanie Walker. You could do a lot of different things with that
Insein
Footballguy
Personally I would just like to see Westbrook get a shot. The guy still had it at the begining of last year before the concsussions. He is one of my fav players and I think it was a mistake to goto SF. Sure Stl wasn't a playoff team but wouldn't Westbrook be a better option or even COP to Jackson than Darby et al?
One would hope that a player in Westbrook's position would prioritize the chance to win highly, and hopefully above all else. It's clear SF >>> STL on that count.
Insein
Footballguy
Little did he know, lol.
Bump for friday morning.
If you are thinking of trying to trade for Davis or Crabtree now is the time to do it. A new OC can only increase their value and the price is liable to go up after Sunday. I'm not saying that they go off, particularly @ Atlanta, but I wouldn't be surprised if they looked a whole lot better.
Smith is still the QB but getting rid of Jimmy Raye is an upgrade all by itself.
C'mon spread offense.
If you are thinking of trying to trade for Davis or Crabtree now is the time to do it. A new OC can only increase their value and the price is liable to go up after Sunday. I'm not saying that they go off, particularly @ Atlanta, but I wouldn't be surprised if they looked a whole lot better.
Smith is still the QB but getting rid of Jimmy Raye is an upgrade all by itself.
C'mon spread offense.
DoubleG
Footballguy
Sorry, I just like that joke. But I agree.
Silver & Black
Footballguy
SF homers, do you think the SF offense gets an immediate boost this week, or do you think they need a little time to adjust to the new OC and system?
Honestly no one has any idea. Pretty much everybody hated Jimmy Raye so we're all hoping our hatred is validated by a more dynamic, more effective offense on Sunday. However no one would be shocked if the team laid another stink bomb in Atlanta, especially considering how terrible the 49ers are on the road/10 am starts.
Cautious hope but not expecting much basically. I read an article yesterday that pointed out that Mike Johnson is in a win-win situation - if the offense does well he's a genius, if not then it's Singletary's fault.
Cautious hope but not expecting much basically. I read an article yesterday that pointed out that Mike Johnson is in a win-win situation - if the offense does well he's a genius, if not then it's Singletary's fault.
DoubleG
Footballguy
IIRC, his carries went down, but his YPC and catches went up. All in all it didn't hurt his numbers much at all (unless you were in a league that rewarded points differently for rushing yards vs. receving yards).
footballnerd
Footballguy
SANTA CLARA — Beauty may be in the eye of the beholder, but no reasonable person can find much to admire in the 49ers offense after three games.
Mike Johnson is aware the numbers are ugly. And San Francisco's new offensive coordinator aims to give the 0-3 Niners an extreme makeover starting Sunday in Atlanta.
“I kind of correlate it to two women wearing the same dress,” Johnson said Thursday in comparing the offense under ex-offensive coordinator Jimmy Raye to what he hopes it will become under his leadership. “You have football players, you have an offense, but you can have two women wearing the same dress and they look totally different.”
On Day 4 on his new job, Johnson addressed the media for the first time and addressed questions about his plans to resuscitate an offense that ranks 31st in the NFL in points, 27th in rushing and has more turnovers (6) than touchdowns (4).
Johnson, 43, conceded the obvious: Week 4 isn't the time to overhaul the playbook. But, invoking the dress analogy again, he said the Niners will have the same core plays and concepts, but they will look different.
Johnson praised Raye, calling him one of the best coaches he's been around, but it became clear as he spelled out his vision that he believes the Niners can use their offensive talent more effectively than they did under Raye's 19-game tenure.
Based on Johnson's 18-minute give-and-take, expect the 49ers to use more formations, more personnel packages and at least dabble with the spread offense in Atlanta.
“I believe that you have to be multiple and be diversified,” said Johnson when asked about his offensive philosophy. “I think you have to have multiple packages ... And you also have to spread them out. One of the basic philosophies that I believe in, I believe you have to make the defense defend the entire field. I think you can't let a defense squeeze you between the numbers.”
Johnson also emphasized getting more playmakers involved, which could signal a bigger workload for running back Brian Westbrook (3 touches) and tight end Delanie Walker (6 catches). On Wednesday, quarterback Alex Smith, who shares a close relationship with his new offensive coordinator, said that he and Johnson both believed in being flexible.
That is, they recognize the need to throw out the game plan, if necessary, based on how defenses are attacking them. Such flexibility wasn't perceived to be one of Raye's strengths and helps explain why running back Frank Gore has managed less than 44 yards in two games this season against defenses sold out to stop him.
“I think we have other playmakers here that have the ability to make plays that will make Frank's job of running the ball easier,” Johnson said. “I think that's what we'll try to do, just make sure that we get the ball to the people that we have and then each game I think will be a little bit different. We'll play some games where they'll try to load the box on you and you'll do certain things. And then certain times they'll probably play a little softer where you'll run it more.”
Johnson spent 2008 out of football and spent much of his time studying the spread offense in college football. Smith played in the spread at the University of Utah and had success in the offense when the Niners used it last year. Johnson said they will use some spread, which is at least partially tied to his desire to play to Smith's strengths.
“I think that's important for any quarterback,” Johnson said. “I think you have to look at what they do well and what they don't do well and then you have to emphasize the good points. I think what we're going to try to do with Alex Smith is to come together as a staff and then see what Alex Smith does really well and what he doesn't do well, and we are going to try and stay away from the bad stuff.”
And, three games into the season, the Niners, who have ben outscored 87-38, are familiar with the bad stuff.
The situation became so dire after Sunday's 31-10 loss to the Chiefs that Singletary said “changes” would likely be coming. However, the starting lineup has remained intact and the only change was at offensive coordinator.
As a result, Johnson, a 10-year assistant with two games of NFL play-calling experience, is being viewed as a possible savior for a winless and increasingly desperate team.
It's seemingly a lot of pressure for a relative novice, but Johnson says he's ready for perhaps the biggest challenge of his professional career.
“Some people may think that way but I don't,” Johnson said of feeling pressure. “This is something that I have prepared myself for mentally ... Now I'll have the opportunity to put my stamp on how the game goes and how it's called on offense. And I don't feel that pressure.”
Link
Mike Johnson is aware the numbers are ugly. And San Francisco's new offensive coordinator aims to give the 0-3 Niners an extreme makeover starting Sunday in Atlanta.
“I kind of correlate it to two women wearing the same dress,” Johnson said Thursday in comparing the offense under ex-offensive coordinator Jimmy Raye to what he hopes it will become under his leadership. “You have football players, you have an offense, but you can have two women wearing the same dress and they look totally different.”
On Day 4 on his new job, Johnson addressed the media for the first time and addressed questions about his plans to resuscitate an offense that ranks 31st in the NFL in points, 27th in rushing and has more turnovers (6) than touchdowns (4).
Johnson, 43, conceded the obvious: Week 4 isn't the time to overhaul the playbook. But, invoking the dress analogy again, he said the Niners will have the same core plays and concepts, but they will look different.
Johnson praised Raye, calling him one of the best coaches he's been around, but it became clear as he spelled out his vision that he believes the Niners can use their offensive talent more effectively than they did under Raye's 19-game tenure.
Based on Johnson's 18-minute give-and-take, expect the 49ers to use more formations, more personnel packages and at least dabble with the spread offense in Atlanta.
“I believe that you have to be multiple and be diversified,” said Johnson when asked about his offensive philosophy. “I think you have to have multiple packages ... And you also have to spread them out. One of the basic philosophies that I believe in, I believe you have to make the defense defend the entire field. I think you can't let a defense squeeze you between the numbers.”
Johnson also emphasized getting more playmakers involved, which could signal a bigger workload for running back Brian Westbrook (3 touches) and tight end Delanie Walker (6 catches). On Wednesday, quarterback Alex Smith, who shares a close relationship with his new offensive coordinator, said that he and Johnson both believed in being flexible.
That is, they recognize the need to throw out the game plan, if necessary, based on how defenses are attacking them. Such flexibility wasn't perceived to be one of Raye's strengths and helps explain why running back Frank Gore has managed less than 44 yards in two games this season against defenses sold out to stop him.
“I think we have other playmakers here that have the ability to make plays that will make Frank's job of running the ball easier,” Johnson said. “I think that's what we'll try to do, just make sure that we get the ball to the people that we have and then each game I think will be a little bit different. We'll play some games where they'll try to load the box on you and you'll do certain things. And then certain times they'll probably play a little softer where you'll run it more.”
Johnson spent 2008 out of football and spent much of his time studying the spread offense in college football. Smith played in the spread at the University of Utah and had success in the offense when the Niners used it last year. Johnson said they will use some spread, which is at least partially tied to his desire to play to Smith's strengths.
“I think that's important for any quarterback,” Johnson said. “I think you have to look at what they do well and what they don't do well and then you have to emphasize the good points. I think what we're going to try to do with Alex Smith is to come together as a staff and then see what Alex Smith does really well and what he doesn't do well, and we are going to try and stay away from the bad stuff.”
And, three games into the season, the Niners, who have ben outscored 87-38, are familiar with the bad stuff.
The situation became so dire after Sunday's 31-10 loss to the Chiefs that Singletary said “changes” would likely be coming. However, the starting lineup has remained intact and the only change was at offensive coordinator.
As a result, Johnson, a 10-year assistant with two games of NFL play-calling experience, is being viewed as a possible savior for a winless and increasingly desperate team.
It's seemingly a lot of pressure for a relative novice, but Johnson says he's ready for perhaps the biggest challenge of his professional career.
“Some people may think that way but I don't,” Johnson said of feeling pressure. “This is something that I have prepared myself for mentally ... Now I'll have the opportunity to put my stamp on how the game goes and how it's called on offense. And I don't feel that pressure.”
Link
TommyGilmore
Footballguy
How on earth are they going to change the offense mid-season and suddenly start putting up points???
packersfan
Footballguy
Didn't they shift to using more of the spread offense late last season after Smith took over? That seemed to work pretty well. It at least helped make Smith more productive.
Dr. Awesome
Footballguy
They weren't putting up points before the change. Raye set a mighty low bar.
Louisville Slugger
Footballguy
I can see Crabtree getting a pretty nice bump from the 49ers going to a spread offense, but Westbrook has zero value unless Gore gets hurt.
I think Crabtree is a great buy low option starting this week. He is far too talented for the 49ers to not use him.
I think Crabtree is a great buy low option starting this week. He is far too talented for the 49ers to not use him.
TommyGilmore
Footballguy
They averaged 22.2 PPG with Shaun Hill starting, and 19.7 PPG with Smith starting.
I didn't check the stats on Yards-From-Scrimmage but I would be surprised if there was a significant difference.
Insein
Footballguy
I couldn't wait any longer for Crabtree. Dumped him in a trade for Santana Moss and Kevin Walter. May hurt later but I just couldn't have him score me 3 pts each week.
packersfan
Footballguy
Good info. Thanks. I still believe that's the best Smith has ever looked. He was productive late last season and I think playing in the spread helped him because he was used to it from college. The problem is Gore didn't care for it as I recall.They averaged 22.2 PPG with Shaun Hill starting, and 19.7 PPG with Smith starting.
CalBear
Footballguy
Let me check...is Alex Smith still the QB? Looks like it. So, no immediate boost.
CalBear
Footballguy
The problem is, Alex Smith still sucks. Here are the teams the Niners played at the end of 2009, with their passing defensive rank:JAX (#27)SEA (#30)ARI (#23)PHI (#17)DET (#32)STL (#25)In the Arizona and PHI games, he averaged 160 yards passing, with 3 TDs and 5 INTs. The others were all against terrible defensive teams. Don't look at those numbers and conclude that Smith can manage mediocre numbers against real defenses; he can manage mediocre numbers against bad defenses, and bad numbers against mediocre defenses.Atlanta has been giving up a decent amount of passing yards, but they've also scored 6 INTs on the season. Expect them to add to that total in another laughable loss for the Niners.
packersfan
Footballguy
I agree but you're not improving the position this season. So I think you have to do something to get the most out of Smith that you possibly can. Based on what he showed late last season using more of the spread formation may help accomplish that goal.
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CalBear
Footballguy
Let's see, how many of the Niners upcoming opponents have bottom-10 passing defenses...hmm, none of them. The offense will continue to suck for at least the next four weeks. Against Denver and St. Louis (weeks 8-9) they might have a chance, if Smith is still starting at that point. But if they lose to Atlanta (almost certain), Philly (very likely), and the Raiders (50/50), you have to imagine there will be some kind of significant change at that point.Here's my prediction: they pull Smith during the Carolina game, and his replacement does reasonably well against Denver and St. Louis. Niner fans then once again get irrational about their prospects.
packersfan
Footballguy
I'm not sure we're really disagreeing here. We both agree Smith sucks. All I'm saying is that if you're going to give yourself a chance with him as the starting QB you might as well try something that allowed him to be productive (i.e. using the spread formation more). What you're doing now clearly isn't working so why would you be averse to trying something that has provided positive results in the past? It's clear the Niners aren't averse to trying something different and I think it's the right move to make. It may not work but it's doubtful things will get worse than they already are.
Dr. Awesome
Footballguy
I actually have to start Alex Smith this weekend. 
CalBear
Footballguy
My point is, it's not the spread formation that allowed Smith to be nominally productive; it was the fact that they were running the spread formation against terrible defenses. They don't have the receivers to run an effective spread, and the fact that Smith sucks will not be any less true if they run a spread.
Hipple Long Ware & Peete
Footballguy
frankly if you grab westbrook you are hoping for him to suck, and then dump to the back early and often.
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
Crabtree has no business being compared to Andre Johnson (statistically or physically). Crabtree is not a huge physical presence, does not possess above average speed much less elite speed, is a questionable pass catcher, and will not break tackles at the NFL level (with exception to a good spin move). In college I think everyone thought he was 6'3" 225 but he is not. He played on a spread offense and put up video game numbers. If he develops a good work ethic he does have potential to be become a very productive receiver, however thinking this guy will automatically become elite is pipe dream. He does not have the skill set to become a receiver that the opposing defense has to solely focus on. On top of that his mental characteristics seem in question (work ethic, holdout, dude just seems like an awkward cat).
Fullback Fro
yesno
Your knowledge is AMAZING. Do you have a blog i which I can subscribe?
