DeAngelo Williams restructures - Stewart fans have to wait again (1 Viewer)

[Holy Schneikes]

The massive paycut is in 2014 and 2015. It makes it clearer to me that BOTH rbs will be in Carolina for the forseeable future.

Uh, not really. He was going to get 0 dollars in 2014 and 2015 from the Panthers as they would've cut him. Now he gets paid close to $2 million each year. These aren't guaranteed baseball contracts. The only thing guaranteed is the signing bonus. Those inflated years at the end of the contract are rarely receieved by the players...

So you are saying he didn't get his salary reduced because he would have gotten cut because his salary was too high?

Here's the net effect:

• 2013 RestructureConverted $4M into "signing bonus"
  
  Reduced base from $4.75M to $850k
  
  Reduced Workout Bonus from $250k to $150k
  
  Added 2016-17 dummy years
  
• 2014 RestructureReduced base from $5.75M to $1.85M
  
  Reduced workout bonus from $250k to $150k
  
• 2015 RestructureReduced base from $6.75M to $1.85M
  
  Reduced workout bonus from $250k to $150k
  
  Added a $1 million Option Bonus
  

So it is definitely a real cut. The original salaries in 2013/2015/2015 weren't out of line with what he was being paid per year in 2011/2012. They just realized that was way more than they should be spending and dropped it. A LOT.

I really don't see how this could be construed as anything other than a pay cut to stay with the team. He was scheduled to make a lot, and now he isn't.

He was never going to get the money in that deal for this year or beyond without a pay cut. Had he not taken it and decided to test the open waters, he would've been cut. That means 0 dollars in 2013, 0 in 2014 and 0 in 2015. He would've gotten signed by another team, but I bet it would've been far less than what he restructured for.

How else do you think they get him to renegotiate? They say, "Take this lower salary or take no salary."

I hate to use a cliche, but pages 2013, 14 and 15 of that contract weren't worth the paper they were printed on...

By the argument you just laid out, not one player in the NFL has ever received a pay cut.

TONS of guys see the end of their deals when they aren't over-paid. When they ARE over-paid, they get cut, or they get their pay cut. Williams is in the latter category. Why is this hard?

Williams original deal was not even overly backloaded. It was a fairly gradual rise - typical of most deals out there except it was too high in ALL years. He is the most OBVIOUS case of a guy getting his salary cut to stay with the team as there has ever been in the NFL. Would he have been cut if he hadn't had his salary cut? OF COURSE. No one is arguing with that. That's one of the reasons he accepted the salary cut. The other reason seems to be that he absolutely loves it in Carolina.

The funny thing is, none of this matters. All that really matters fantasy-wise is that he is now likely to stick around for a while. I only posted when I did because several folks were blasting OTHER posters for recognizing the FACT that he had a substantial pay cut, and ironically implying that the other guys hadn't read the details. Well, they DID read the details (as I did) and the guys blasting them didn't.

 

[Holy Schneikes]

Speaking of cutting him. The other thing I'll mention cap wise, is that Williams DID have a fair amount of leverage with the team to get as much as he did. Here's why:

To cut him, it would have cost the team 9.6M against the cap THIS YEAR (1.4M more than he would have cost against this year by playing).

The OTHER thing to keep in mind is that I don't think he's very "cuttable" next year either. My best guess is that it will now cost about 9.6M to cut him in 2014 (again) and maybe 5.8M to keep him. In 2015 it might finally become viable. He'll be about 5.6M against the cap if he is cut and 5.8 to keep him (but at least they'd save some "real" money at that point if he's just not worth paying period).

 

[Tau837]

Sooner or later there should come a point where DeAngelo is washed up while Stewart is still in his prime. That's where I think we'll get the 2-3 year window of real value.

Sweet Lord... seriously? First, I disagree with the 'still in his prime' point. Next year he's 27, and with his history of little leg injuries, I'd argue he'll already be past his prime. Second, don't you realize once Williams is gone they will draft the next RB to take carries, who will be as likely as not to relegate Stewart to minority RBBC share? I don't know of any nice way to say this -- your Stewart obsession has become ridiculous, and frankly, you're losing overall credibility over it. We all miss on our predictions, but we need to recognize when we've missed and adjust and move forward.

Stewart and Williams have both suffered from being stuck on the same franchise. I think if you had put either of these guys in a situation where he had a real chance to be the every down back for a team, you would've gotten a great career. In terms of pure talent I rate these guys on par with the top 5-10 backs in the league. The difference between them and the likes McCoy, Gore, S Jackson, and Lynch is opportunity. I don't have an obsession with Stewart. I just recognize him for what he is. A very good back. Top 15 overall draft pick with very rare tools. He's been very productive throughout his career when given opportunities and he really thrived in the one year where he was given a significant workload. I don't agree that he'll be resigned to a RBBC once Williams fades because I think there are only 1-2 backs in the average draft class who have enough talent to cut into his carries. The odds of Carolina getting one of those players in the next few years are fairly slim. The irony of your post is pretty hilarious. You take me task for being optimistic about Stewart while at the same time ranking McFadden as a top 12 dynasty back last I checked. Do you even realize that Stewart has more career rushing yards and a higher career YPC than DMC? Pot, kettle, black...

You seem to be locked into the past with McFadden but not with Stewart. How do you explain the inconsistency? In other words, how do you justify having high expectations for Stewart with Williams around but low expectations for McFadden with no threat present and with the team publicly committing to a system that fits McFadden's strengths? Your bias against McFadden is ridiculous.

 

[JPeso]

Sooner or later there should come a point where DeAngelo is washed up while Stewart is still in his prime. That's where I think we'll get the 2-3 year window of real value.

Sweet Lord... seriously?

First, I disagree with the 'still in his prime' point. Next year he's 27, and with his history of little leg injuries, I'd argue he'll already be past his prime.

Second, don't you realize once Williams is gone they will draft the next RB to take carries, who will be as likely as not to relegate Stewart to minority RBBC share?

I don't know of any nice way to say this -- your Stewart obsession has become ridiculous, and frankly, you're losing overall credibility over it. We all miss on our predictions, but we need to recognize when we've missed and adjust and move forward.

Stewart and Williams have both suffered from being stuck on the same franchise. I think if you had put either of these guys in a situation where he had a real chance to be the every down back for a team, you would've gotten a great career. In terms of pure talent I rate these guys on par with the top 5-10 backs in the league. The difference between them and the likes McCoy, Gore, S Jackson, and Lynch is opportunity.I don't have an obsession with Stewart. I just recognize him for what he is. A very good back. Top 15 overall draft pick with very rare tools. He's been very productive throughout his career when given opportunities and he really thrived in the one year where he was given a significant workload. I don't agree that he'll be resigned to a RBBC once Williams fades because I think there are only 1-2 backs in the average draft class who have enough talent to cut into his carries. The odds of Carolina getting one of those players in the next few years are fairly slim.

The irony of your post is pretty hilarious. You take me task for being optimistic about Stewart while at the same time ranking McFadden as a top 12 dynasty back last I checked. Do you even realize that Stewart has more career rushing yards and a higher career YPC than DMC? Pot, kettle, black...

Disclaimer - I do not disagree with you whether or not Stewart is a very talented back. I had him 3 years ago as a top 5ish back, 2 years ago top 10ish. In essence, I've remained on the bandwagon due to his ability. I still can't find 27 other RBs I'd rather own, but not that far from it.

But along this journey since Stewart and He Who Must Not Be Named were brought in to the league, it's been you that has compared them, talked up one, talked down another, not others. You are the only one who continues to bring up your defendant stance of He Who Must Not Be Named vs. Stewart as you do in the post I have quoted. When most others have looked past this comparison.

I love comparing players. Especially when they enter at the same time, at the same position, and you make a choice when truly, it's a 50/50 decision. It's no longer that. And in my opinion, has no longer been that since He Who Must Not Be Named proved he can pimp the #### out of RB1 slots on championship teams. Maybe THAT'S why Bruce has him RB12 vs. RB28.

You cannot say that, at this day in time, you'd rather own Stewart over He Who Must Not Be Named. If so, you are lying to yourself. I sometimes find excuses as to why I am fine with a stance, but then it keeps me from learning why and where I messed up. He Who Must Not Be Named came in to the league a ##### and I was not the biggest fan, but the eliticism has always been undeniable. He worked himself in to a very nice player that I think will either 1) assist in domination or 2) be out of my lineup.

You will never have to play matchups with He Who Must Not Be Named, unless you have three horses in front of him or the anti-Christ Knapp is in town, or... yes, I guess he could get injured.

 

[HPD]

I don't think it's a bad idea to own them both as your RB 3/4. Stewart if healthy has RB2 potential and Dwill will be a RB2 when/if Stewart gets hurt. I don't think Cam will be featured as much in the running game as he has been.

 

[trader jake]

EBF, on 15 May 2013 - 11:41, said:Sooner or later there should come a point where DeAngelo is washed up while Stewart is still in his prime. That's where I think we'll get the 2-3 year window of real value.

Sweet Lord... seriously?First, I disagree with the 'still in his prime' point. In 2014 he's 27, and with his history of little leg injuries, I'd argue he'll already be past his prime.Second, don't you realize once Williams is gone they will draft the next RB to take carries, who will be as likely as not to relegate Stewart to minority RBBC share?I don't know of any nice way to say this -- your Stewart obsession has become ridiculous, and frankly, you're losing overall credibility over it. We all miss on our predictions, but we need to recognize when we've missed and adjust and move forward.

Exactly.If the reality with Stewart as a fantasy player hasn't become obvious by now for people, it never will.

 

[ducktales]

EBF, on 15 May 2013 - 11:41, said:Sooner or later there should come a point where DeAngelo is washed up while Stewart is still in his prime. That's where I think we'll get the 2-3 year window of real value.

Sweet Lord... seriously?First, I disagree with the 'still in his prime' point. In 2014 he's 27, and with his history of little leg injuries, I'd argue he'll already be past his prime.Second, don't you realize once Williams is gone they will draft the next RB to take carries, who will be as likely as not to relegate Stewart to minority RBBC share?I don't know of any nice way to say this -- your Stewart obsession has become ridiculous, and frankly, you're losing overall credibility over it. We all miss on our predictions, but we need to recognize when we've missed and adjust and move forward.

First, I'd argue because stewart was never a full time starter his body will be much younger than your average 27 year old so EBF's point on stewart coming into his prime makes some sense.

Second, don't you realize when Stewart was drafted Williams was supposed to be an after thought in Carolina? How did that work out? D wills had 1515 yards and 18 TDs that year. My point is don't assume just because they get a new shiny toy they are going to toss aside stewart who has tremendous talent, and not give him the chance to be the man.

I don't know of any nice way to say this -- the criticism of EBF was off and completely uncalled for making you look like a giant condescending tool "but we need to recognize when we've missed and adjust and move forward" doesn't get more condescending than that.

Were you always condescending like this, or only after you became staff? Genuine question

 

[tdmills]

I actually take this as a good sign: To me it reads "Panthers new office finally sees the priortiy RB; tells backup DWIL to take less or get cut".

People need to remember that this is a new regime with a new way of looking at things. Every teams want talent at the right price but apparently the Panthers were at least willing to entertain the idea that they may be getting ready to have a conversation with DWIL that would result in him not being there anymore. I think that says something for the commitment to JSTEW.

They could have cut him. It was purely a money thing - you can't pay that much to a RB who isn't producing at a top 5-10 clip. Williams wasn't so he took the cut.

There is nothing positive here for Stewart owners, in my opinion. They'll each be used as they have been the last few years.

I agree, but I am sure EBF will spin this as another great buying opportunity to acquire Stewart

LOL. You guys poke at EBF on this topic quite a bit and I'm sure it is nice when you're on the right side of it so far, overall, but you know he is going to make you guys eat a LOT of crow if JSTEW strings together 2-3 seasons like he gave a glimmer of a few years ago. A couple of seasons doesn't sound like a lot but with today's RBs, 2-3 top years like he flashed before are about all you can ask for and is definitely enough to give you a contending FF team for a few years.

He's pretentious, therefore he deserves all of the responses.

LOL. THat was funny.

Even more fitting after his last response

 

[cstu]

EBF, on 15 May 2013 - 11:41, said:Sooner or later there should come a point where DeAngelo is washed up while Stewart is still in his prime. That's where I think we'll get the 2-3 year window of real value.

Sweet Lord... seriously?First, I disagree with the 'still in his prime' point. In 2014 he's 27, and with his history of little leg injuries, I'd argue he'll already be past his prime.Second, don't you realize once Williams is gone they will draft the next RB to take carries, who will be as likely as not to relegate Stewart to minority RBBC share?I don't know of any nice way to say this -- your Stewart obsession has become ridiculous, and frankly, you're losing overall credibility over it. We all miss on our predictions, but we need to recognize when we've missed and adjust and move forward.

First, I'd argue because stewart was never a full time starter his body will be much younger than your average 27 year old so EBF's point on stewart coming into his prime makes some sense.

Second, don't you realize when Stewart was drafted Williams was supposed to be an after thought in Carolina? How did that work out? D wills had 1515 yards and 18 TDs that year. My point is don't assume just because they get a new shiny toy they are going to toss aside stewart who has tremendous talent, and not give him the chance to be the man.

I don't know of any nice way to say this -- the criticism of EBF was off and completely uncalled for making you look like a giant condescending tool "but we need to recognize when we've missed and adjust and move forward" doesn't get more condescending than that.

Were you always condescending like this, or only after you became staff? Genuine question

The issue was Stewart has never been his talent. However, there are countless examples of players who never got to be 'the guy' because they couldn't be trusted to stay healthy.

 

[Concept Coop]

I don't think Cam will be featured as much in the running game as he has been.

Unfortunately for Panther RBs, he will be; at the goal line at least. They've run the same play for 2 years - it's worked well and he's stayed healthy. No reason to change it.

 

[ducktales]

EBF, on 15 May 2013 - 11:41, said:Sooner or later there should come a point where DeAngelo is washed up while Stewart is still in his prime. That's where I think we'll get the 2-3 year window of real value.

Sweet Lord... seriously?First, I disagree with the 'still in his prime' point. In 2014 he's 27, and with his history of little leg injuries, I'd argue he'll already be past his prime.Second, don't you realize once Williams is gone they will draft the next RB to take carries, who will be as likely as not to relegate Stewart to minority RBBC share?I don't know of any nice way to say this -- your Stewart obsession has become ridiculous, and frankly, you're losing overall credibility over it. We all miss on our predictions, but we need to recognize when we've missed and adjust and move forward.

First, I'd argue because stewart was never a full time starter his body will be much younger than your average 27 year old so EBF's point on stewart coming into his prime makes some sense.

Second, don't you realize when Stewart was drafted Williams was supposed to be an after thought in Carolina? How did that work out? D wills had 1515 yards and 18 TDs that year. My point is don't assume just because they get a new shiny toy they are going to toss aside stewart who has tremendous talent, and not give him the chance to be the man.

I don't know of any nice way to say this -- the criticism of EBF was off and completely uncalled for making you look like a giant condescending tool "but we need to recognize when we've missed and adjust and move forward" doesn't get more condescending than that.

Were you always condescending like this, or only after you became staff? Genuine question

The issue was Stewart has never been his talent. However, there are countless examples of players who never got to be 'the guy' because they couldn't be trusted to stay healthy.

So if its not a talent issue, then you grab him cheap if you can and hope the dots connect, thats all EBF is saying. Low price tag huge payoff

 

[BassNBrew]

You guys can debate the same ol fantasy implications. As a Panther fan I'm elated that one of the best RBs in the league remains with our team for a couple of more years.

 

[Biabreakable]

 

[donkshow]

Too much of a risk to grab either and hope for consistent numbers. But I'll always try and grab one and cross my fingers as an RB3 with RB2 upside.

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

I don't think it's a bad idea to own them both as your RB 3/4. Stewart if healthy has RB2 potential and Dwill will be a RB2 when/if Stewart gets hurt. I don't think Cam will be featured as much in the running game as he has been.

I'm fully on board with the idea of stashing them as ur rb3/rb4 with a CHANCE for rb2 production...Case in pt after last season in my dynasty league I had ivory Dujuan Harris knowshon bilal Powell behind McFadden and Martin at RB... I traded away ivory after he looked to be staying in New Orleans so after the NFL draft my RBs behind Martin and McFadden were total crap in value...For that situation it made sense to trade for jstew and DWill...I'm sorry for those that paid premium dollar for premium talent but will never get the payoff... For those of us who didn't pay a premium I think jstew has a chance to be productive and when he gets dinged DWill could put up decent rb2 numbers possiblySidenote... As a Cam owner I'm more than ok with him continuing to be the goal line back

 

[JohnnyU]

Bummer, but I wouldn't say I thought he was a great redraft pick anyway.

From a dynasty standpoint, Stewart is 4 years younger than DeAngelo. If you think they'll both have the same longevity potential, do the math.

Sooner or later there should come a point where DeAngelo is washed up while Stewart is still in his prime. That's where I think we'll get the 2-3 year window of real value.

Knowing Stewart's luck that "2 or 3 year window of real value" will include another RB that may or may not be on the current roster. I'm so glad I traded Stewart in the leagues I had him. That feels good.

 

[TheFanatic]

First, I'd argue because stewart was never a full time starter his body will be much younger than your average 27 year old so EBF's point on stewart coming into his prime makes some sense.

This needs to stop. Under this logic, Priest Holmes would still be starting in the NFL.

Guys that get more carries tend to have longer careers, not the other way around. The tread on the tires thing is a complete myth. While he's not carrying the ball as much he is still getting older. Which means he will not heal as fast and speaking of speed, his will diminish whether he's carrieed the ball 250 times a season or 5 times a season. He can't fight age. He can't delay it. He can't even slow it down a little.

His career is over at 30-31 whether he touches the ball 300 times a year from now till then or touches it 75 times a season. Oh, the only caveat to that is if he has a career ending injury in which he leaves the game even earlier.

He's not younger than other 27 year olds. He's 27 and doesn't know how to recuperate from 300 touch seasons over and over like an Emitt Smith, LT, or Curtis Martin and therefore he's probably done as someone with elite talent and health at around 28-29 where he will be a fill in until the next rookie they grab shows the organization what he can do and they cut up Stewart's contract and show him the door...

 

[EBF]

Guys that get more carries tend to have longer careers, not the other way around.

The simple explanation for this is that backs who have the most talent tend to get the most carries. They tend to be the most enduring because they're the players who can lose a step or two and still remain viable. Edgerrin James, Fred Taylor, Steven Jackson, Corey Dillon, and Emmitt Smith didn't age gracefully because they got a lot of carries. They got a lot of carries because they were super talented.

Don't confuse correlation with causation. A glass of wine with dinner might be "good for your health," but that benefit vanishes when you control for the actual relevant variables like income level, health care, stress, etc. Another popular trope is that "married men are healthier than unmarried men, therefore marriage is good for a man's health." In reality, healthy people are more likely to hold down a job and attract a mate. So it's more accurate to say that "healthy men get married" and not that "marriage makes men healthy."

If you think there's any health benefit to enduring thousands of hits in the NFL, you are kidding yourself. There's no doubt in my mind that a 30 year old LaDainian Tomlinson who exercised regularly and kept his body in peak physical condition without ever subjecting himself to the beating of pro football would be "fresher" physically than a 30 year old LT with thousands of practice and game touches.

 

[TheFanatic]

Guys that get more carries tend to have longer careers, not the other way around.

The simple explanation for this is that backs who have the most talent tend to get the most carries. They tend to be the most enduring because they're the players who can lose a step or two and still remain viable. Edgerrin James, Fred Taylor, Steven Jackson, Corey Dillon, and Emmitt Smith didn't age gracefully because they got a lot of carries. They got a lot of carries because they were super talented.

Don't confuse correlation with causation. A glass of wine with dinner might be "good for your health," but that benefit vanishes when you control for the actual relevant variables like income level, health care, stress, etc. Another popular trope is that "married men are healthier than unmarried men, therefore marriage is good for a man's health." In reality, healthy people are more likely to hold down a job and attract a mate. So it's more accurate to say that "healthy men get married" and not that "marriage makes men healthy."

If you think there's any health benefit to enduring thousands of hits in the NFL, you are kidding yourself. There's no doubt in my mind that a 30 year old LaDainian Tomlinson who exercised regularly and kept his body in peak physical condition without ever subjecting himself to the beating of pro football would be "fresher" physically than a 30 year old LT with thousands of practice and game touches.

I didn';t say getting hit was a health benefit. I said guys that take a pounding know how to deal with that and how to prepare their bodies for another year of said pounding.

And a "Fresher" LT at age 30 is still going to be slower and not heal as fast. Plain and simple.

Remember getting a hangover at 21? You could recover and be back up and running the next day and tackle the world

At 41, it might take two days to recover from what used to take a couple hours. Think that changes because someone never imbided until they were 41? Nope. Our bodies slow down whether we've been in the NFL or not...

 

[Sinn Fein]

Looks like Stewart is rounding into his usual mid-season form:

4. Stewart very limited: Coming off ankle surgery this offseason, RB Jonathan Stewart was "very limited," per Rivera. He stretched, but then went to the other field and worked out on the bike alongside WR Lamont Bryant and CB Captain Munnerlyn, who was suffering from an abdominal strain.

 

[-jb-]

Up. Stewart still sidelined as far as I know, yet Williams still being drafted in the later rounds. Could be a difference maker for teams this year.

 

[gbill2004]

Will Stewart play at all this season? Seems to have chronic foot problems.

 

[pantherclub]

Up. Stewart still sidelined as far as I know, yet Williams still being drafted in the later rounds. Could be a difference maker for teams this year.

absolutely. He could easily slip into the top 10-15 this year if Stewart has prolonged issues. I am targeting him hard in the middle rounds.

 

[KellysHeroes]

whoes the back up to DWil

 

[KellysHeroes]

2014: $1.5 million (+ $9 million option bonus),

i don't think hes going to see that money

 

[MAC_32]

whoes the back up to DWil

barner will be the third back, tolbert has his role too. Both neutralized because of cam.

 

[FDC]

whoes the back up to DWil

realistically it is Tolbert (who muddies the whole picture for everyone)

if Tolbert and dwill got injured...

Poole got a surprising amount of snaps early after D Will vs Chicago. Barner had fumble issues. I doubt the staff would fully trust Barner at this point..

 

[Sweet Love]

whoes the back up to DWil

realistically it is Tolbert (who muddies the whole picture for everyone)

if Tolbert and dwill got injured...

Poole got a surprising amount of snaps early after D Will vs Chicago. Barner had fumble issues. I doubt the staff would fully trust Barner at this point..

Yes. I believe Barner is supposed to be the better back (over Poole), but if he shows the tendency to put the ball on the ground, he may find himself in the back of a long line. I also heard/read somewhere in the last couple of days that Tolbert is shaking out to be the backup (assuming Stewart is gimpy).

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

With that uncertainty in mind, it was a pleasant surprise when Panthers coach Ron Rivera said Monday that Stewart still is on target to be ready for the season opener.

"Oh yeah, based on what's been going on the last couple days," Rivera said, via the Panthers' official website. "I feel pretty optimistic."