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Debunking Israel's 11 Main Myths About Gaza, Hamas and War Crimes (1 Viewer)

Gordang

Footballguy
1) The Gaza Strip isn't occupied by Israel

Boston Globe: "Israeli-imposed buffer zones.. now absorb nearly 14 percent of Gaza's total land and at least 48 percent of total arable land. Similarly, the sea buffer zone covers 85 percent of the maritime area promised to Palestinians in the Oslo Accords, reducing 20 nautical miles to three." Human Rights Watch: "Israel also continues to control the population registry for residents of the Gaza Strip, years after it withdrew its ground forces and settlements there." B'Tselem, 2013: "Israel continues to maintain exclusive control of Gaza's airspace and the territorial waters, just as it has since it occupied the Gaza Strip in 1967."

2) Israel wants a ceasefire but Hamas doesn't

Al Jazeera: "Meshaal said Hamas wants the 'aggression to stop tomorrow, today, or even this minute. But [israel must] lift the blockade with guarantees and not as a promise for future negotiations'. He added 'we will not shut the door in the face of any humanitarian ceasefire backed by a real aid programme'." Jerusalem Post: "One day after an Egyptian-brokered cease-fire accepted by Israel, but rejected by Hamas, fell through, the terrorist organization proposed a 10-year end to hostilities in return for its conditions being met by Israel, Channel 2 reported Wednesday.. Hamas's conditions were the release of re-arrested Palestinian prisoners who were let go in the Schalit deal, the opening of Gaza-Israel border crossings in order to allow citizens and goods to pass through, and international supervision of the Gazan seaport in place of the current Israeli blockade." BBC: "Israel's security cabinet has rejected a week-long Gaza ceasefire proposal put forward by US Secretary of State John Kerry 'as it stands'."

3) Israel, unlike Hamas, doesn't deliberately target civilians

The Guardian: "It was there that the second [israeli] shell hit the beach, those firing apparently adjusting their fire to target the fleeing survivors. As it exploded, journalists standing by the terrace wall shouted: 'They are only children.'" UN high commissioner for human rights Navi Pillay: "A number of incidents, along with the high number of civilian deaths, belies the [israeli] claim that all necessary precautions are being taken to protect civilian lives." United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict, 2009: "The tactics used by the Israeli armed forces in the Gaza offensive are consistent with previous practices, most recently during the Lebanon war in 2006. A concept known as the Dahiya doctrine emerged then, involving the application of disproportionate force and the causing of great damage and destruction to civilian property and infrastructure, and suffering to civilian populations. The Mission concludes from a review of the facts on the ground that it.. appears to have been precisely what was put into practice."

4) Only Hamas is guilty of war crimes, not Israel

Human Rights Watch: "Israeli forces may also have knowingly or recklessly attacked people who were clearly civilians, such as young boys, and civilian structures, including a hospital - laws-of-war violations that are indicative of war crimes."Amnesty International: "Deliberately attacking a civilian home is a war crime, and the overwhelming scale of destruction of civilian homes, in some cases with entire families inside them, points to a distressing pattern of repeated violations of the laws of war."

5) Hamas use the civilians of Gaza as 'human shields'

Jeremy Bowen, BBC Middle East editor: "I saw no evidence during my week in Gaza of Israel's accusation that Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields." The Guardian: "In the past week, the Guardian has seen large numbers of people fleeing different neighbourhoods.. and no evidence that Hamas had compelled them to stay." The Independent: "Some Gazans have admitted that they were afraid of criticizing Hamas, but none have said they had been forced by the organisation to stay in places of danger and become unwilling human-shields." Reuters, 2013: "A United Nations human rights body accused Israeli forces on Thursday of mistreating Palestinian children, including by torturing those in custody and using others as human shields."

6) This current Gaza conflict began with Hamas rocket fire on 30 June 2014

Times of Israel: "Hamas operatives were behind a large volley of rockets which slammed into Israel Monday morning, the first time in years the Islamist group has directly challenged the Jewish state, according to Israeli defense officials.. The security sources, who spoke on condition of anonymity, assessed that Hamas hadprobably launched the barrage in revenge for an Israeli airstrike several hours earlier which killed one person and injured three more.. Hamas hasn't fired rockets into Israel since Operation Pillar of Defense ended in November 2012." The Nation: "During ten days of Operation Brother's Keeper in the West Bank [before the start of the Gaza conflict], Israel arrested approximately 800 Palestinians without charge or trial, killed nine civilians and raided nearly 1,300 residential, commercial and public buildings. Its military operation targeted Hamas members released during the Gilad Shalit prisoner exchange in 2011."

7) Hamas has never stopped firing rockets into Israel

Jewish Daily Forward: "Hamas hadn't fired a single rocket since [2012 Gaza conflict], and had largely suppressed fire by smaller jihadi groups. Rocket firings, averaging 240 per month in 2007, dropped to five per month in 2013." International Crisis Group: "Fewer rockets were fired from Gaza in 2013 than in any year since 2001, and nearly all those that were fired between the November 2012 ceasefire and the current crisis were launched by groups other than Hamas; the Israeli security establishment testified to the aggressive anti-rocket efforts made by the new police force Hamas established specifically for that purpose.. As Israel (and Egypt) rolled back the 2012 understandings - some of which were implemented spottily at best - so too did Hamas roll back its anti rocket efforts."

8) Hamas provoked Israel by kidnapping and killing three Israeli teenagers

Jewish Daily Forward: "The [israeli] government had known almost from the beginning that the boys were dead. It maintained the fiction that it hoped to find them alive as a pretext to dismantle Hamas' West Bank operations.. Nor was that the only fib. It was clear from the beginning that the kidnappers weren't acting on orders from Hamas leadership in Gaza or Damascus. Hamas' Hebron branch -- more a crime family than a clandestine organization -- had a history of acting without the leaders' knowledge, sometimes against their interests." BBC correspondent Jon Donnison: "Israeli police MickeyRosenfeld tells me men who killed 3 Israeli teens def lone cell, hamas affiliated but not operating under leadership.. Seems to contradict the line from Netanyahu government."

9) Hamas rule, not Israel's blockade, is to blame for the humanitarian crisis in the Gaza Strip

US State Department cable: "Israeli officials have confirmed to Embassy officials on multiple occasions that they intend to keep the Gazan economy functioning at the lowest level possible consistent with avoiding a humanitarian crisis.. Israeli officials have confirmed.. on multiple occasions that they intend to keep the Gazan economy on the brink of collapse without quite pushing it over the edge." The Guardian: "The Israeli military made precise calculations of Gaza's daily calorie needs to avoid malnutrition during a blockade imposed on the Palestinian territory between 2007 and mid-2010, according to files the defence ministry released on Wednesday under a court order.. The Israeli advocacy group Gisha.. waged a long court battle to release the document. Its members say Israel calculated the calorie needs for Gaza's population so as to restrict the quantity of food it allowed in."

10) The Israeli government, unlike Hamas, wants a two-state solution

Times of Israel: "[Netanyahu] made explicitly clear that he could never, ever, countenance a fully sovereign Palestinian state in the West Bank.. Amid the current conflict, he elaborated, 'I think the Israeli people understand now what I always say: that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan.'"

11) All serious analysts agree it was Hamas, and not Israel, that started this current conflict

Nathan Thrall, senior Mid East analyst at the International Crisis Group, writing in the New York Times: "The current escalation in Gaza is a direct result of the choice by Israel and the West to obstruct the implementation of the April 2014 Palestinian reconciliation agreement." Henry Siegman, former national director, American Jewish Congress, writing for Politico: "Israel's assault on Gaza.. was not triggered by Hamas' rockets directed at Israel but by Israel's determination to bring down the Palestinian unity government that was formed in early June, even though that government was committed to honoring all of the conditions imposed by the international community for recognition of its legitimacy."

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mehdi-hasan/gaza-israel_b_5624401.html

 
There are several points you listed here which are in serious contradiction of the reporting and facts which I have read on this matter. Obviously somebody is lying because it can't all be true. For instance, either Israel is deliberately targeting civilians or they are not. Either Hamas is using innocent civilians as shields or they are not. Either Hamas is firing rockets at Israel, or they haven't since 2012. And so forth.

While I'm always open to new facts no matter how much they contradict what I previously believed, what you posted here would serve to contradict pretty much EVERYTHING I thought I knew about both Israel and Hamas. So I think it's wise to be cautious and see if the sources are accurate and if what you posted is a fair interpretation. Im betting it isn't.

 
Bump. The article that Gordang posted last night is highly troubling to me, because of the sources involved. For instance, the BBC reporter and The Guardian reporters who seem skeptical of Hamas using human shields. If true, that would contradict most of what we think we know about this crisis. Thoughts?

 
Bump. The article that Gordang posted last night is highly troubling to me, because of the sources involved. For instance, the BBC reporter and The Guardian reporters who seem skeptical of Hamas using human shields. If true, that would contradict most of what we think we know about this crisis. Thoughts?
I don't know what you think you know but the UN has been screaming from the rooftops that Hamas is not using human shields. Amnesty International has said the same. Those schools were not being used to fire at Israel and the video they allegedly used to prove it seems to have come from years ago and even different places. 1600 dead on the Palestinian side mostly women and children. It is ####### disgusting and I for one am sick of my tax dollars paying for this carnage.

 
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It was 1:30 in the morning and you got tim to bite on tim catnip in under 20 minutes. I'm impressed.

 
Bump. The article that Gordang posted last night is highly troubling to me, because of the sources involved. For instance, the BBC reporter and The Guardian reporters who seem skeptical of Hamas using human shields. If true, that would contradict most of what we think we know about this crisis. Thoughts?
I don't know what you think you know but the UN has been screaming from the rooftops that Hamas is not using human shields. Amnesty International has said the same. Those schools were not being used to fire at Israel and the video they allegedly used to prove it seems to have come from years ago and even different places. 1600 dead on the Palestinian side mostly women and children. It is ####### disgusting and I for one am sick of my tax dollars paying for this carnage.
Sure. And Amnesty International and the UN are totally unbiased where Israel is concerned...

 
Bump. The article that Gordang posted last night is highly troubling to me, because of the sources involved. For instance, the BBC reporter and The Guardian reporters who seem skeptical of Hamas using human shields. If true, that would contradict most of what we think we know about this crisis. Thoughts?
I don't know what you think you know but the UN has been screaming from the rooftops that Hamas is not using human shields. Amnesty International has said the same. Those schools were not being used to fire at Israel and the video they allegedly used to prove it seems to have come from years ago and even different places. 1600 dead on the Palestinian side mostly women and children. It is ####### disgusting and I for one am sick of my tax dollars paying for this carnage.
Sure. And Amnesty International and the UN are totally unbiased where Israel is concerned...
How so? What is the source of the bias?

 
Bump. The article that Gordang posted last night is highly troubling to me, because of the sources involved. For instance, the BBC reporter and The Guardian reporters who seem skeptical of Hamas using human shields. If true, that would contradict most of what we think we know about this crisis. Thoughts?
I don't know what you think you know but the UN has been screaming from the rooftops that Hamas is not using human shields. Amnesty International has said the same. Those schools were not being used to fire at Israel and the video they allegedly used to prove it seems to have come from years ago and even different places. 1600 dead on the Palestinian side mostly women and children. It is ####### disgusting and I for one am sick of my tax dollars paying for this carnage.
Sure. And Amnesty International and the UN are totally unbiased where Israel is concerned...
Everyone who has looked into the claims finds them specious. I guess they all hate Israel. It's ridiculous. Saying Israel is wrong isn't the same as anti-antisemitism not matter what AIPAC says.

 
To add some gasoline to the fire, there's this from the Washington Post.

What happens before the Israeli military bombs your house? For many Gaza Strip residents, it's a phone call. Sawsan Kawarea, a resident of Khan Younis, said she was in the house Tuesday when the phone rang. She answered, and on the other side was “David," who claimed he was with the Israeli military.

“He asked for me by name. He said: ‘You have women and children in the house. Get out. You have five minutes before the rockets come,’ ” Kawarea said in an interview with The Post's William Booth.

She took her children and ran outside. A small rocket hit the house soon after, Kawarea said. It was apparently the final warning. Five minutes later, a larger missile hit, and the house was destroyed. According to Hamas, seven people, including three minors, were killed in the Israeli airstrike. The man the Israelis were aiming for was apparently not among those killed.

The phone call warning is part of a broader strategy. For years, the Israeli military has been using cellphone calls and small "warning rockets" — usually sent from drones — to tell people which buildings it is targeting and give them time to get out. It's a time-tested strategy for the Israeli military, and it even has a name: "roof knocking." Even if its intentions are good, however, it is a controversial tactic.

The practice dates to at least 2006. "Hi, my name is Danny. I'm an officer in Israeli military intelligence. In one hour we will blow up your house" was the call that Mohammed Deeb got shortly before his home was destroyed that year, according to Britain's Guardian newspaper. During Operation Cast Lead in 2008, the tactic was used again, with phone calls and small missiles used to warn those in buildings being targeted: The Israel Defense Forces blog later said that the airstrikes that year had adhered to the "innovative 'roof-knocking' procedure," and in 2009, Israel's Foreign Ministry said that more than 165,000 phone calls had been made to warn civilians to stay away from targets.

The logic of the tactic is obvious. Israel has long been criticized for the civilian death tolls associated with its military actions in the Palestinian territories. In theory, "roof knocking" gives civilians, and in particular women and children, a chance to escape the buildings being targeted. At worst, Israel can say justifiably say that it tried. But it's also a remarkable display of power. Both the missiles and even the telephone calls show the ease of Israel's reach, as Eyal Weizman explained in a 2012 London Review of Books article:

Israel can penetrate Gaza’s communication networks so easily because its telephone networks and internet infrastructure are routed through Israeli servers, which has advantages both for the gathering of intelligence and the delivery of propaganda.

Some critics say the tactic amounts to psychological warfare. There are reports of "warnings" that are given but no bombing following. There are also instances in which a bombing is not preceded by a warning, or, worse still, the attack may mistakenly destroy the wrong target or produce wider collateral damage – always a risk in cramped areas such as Khan Younis.Human rights groups have argued that targeting the homes of militia members violates international humanitarian law, whether warnings are made or not.

Either way, the warnings are not always heeded. According to Kawarea, after the "warning rocket" hit her house, a group of young men ran inside. It was unclear whether they thought their presence would stop the bombing or whether they wanted to be martyrs.
Roof knocking video here.

 
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Bump. The article that Gordang posted last night is highly troubling to me, because of the sources involved. For instance, the BBC reporter and The Guardian reporters who seem skeptical of Hamas using human shields. If true, that would contradict most of what we think we know about this crisis. Thoughts?
I don't know what you think you know but the UN has been screaming from the rooftops that Hamas is not using human shields. Amnesty International has said the same. Those schools were not being used to fire at Israel and the video they allegedly used to prove it seems to have come from years ago and even different places. 1600 dead on the Palestinian side mostly women and children. It is ####### disgusting and I for one am sick of my tax dollars paying for this carnage.
Sure. And Amnesty International and the UN are totally unbiased where Israel is concerned...
Everyone who has looked into the claims finds them specious. I guess they all hate Israel. It's ridiculous. Saying Israel is wrong isn't the same as anti-antisemitism not matter what AIPAC says.
A reporter from Sweden just 2 days ago filed a report about how Hamas was firing rockets from right next to an occupied hospital. She then got mad because the report started circulating in pro-Israeli media and she is opposed to Israel's actions.

And 3 times now rockets have been found inf UN schools.

The contention that Hamas isn't using civilian soft spots to launch attacks from is a joke. And the fact that rocket stashes have now been uncovered at 3 UN schools tells you about all you need to know regarding the UN's impartiality in this mess.

As for the ceasefire stuff, I believe there has been 5 ceasefire agreed to so far and Hamas has violated every single one of them within minutes or hours. The idea that Israel must first agree to meet all their demands for Hamas to obey a ceasefire is ludicrous. It only demonstrates that they see the shedding of Palestinian blood as acceptable.

On CNN yesterday, a Hamas leader refused multiple times to say that Hamas would ever be willing to get rid of the line in their charter calling for the killing of every Jew. He also continued the blood libel against Jews by making the claim several times that Jews have murdered Christians in order to use their blood for making matzos. This is the type of people that Hamas has as their leadership. To blame Israel for all of this is a joke.

 
NC Commish, the reasons that I believe Hamas is using human shields are:

1. It's been reported by credible sources.

2. They've done it in the past.

Nonetheless, when other reputable sources contradict that, I think it's important to explore further. Unlike some here I don't automatically disregard the United Nations or Amnesty International. I wish I could get the truth of this, wherever that might lead.

 
Bump. The article that Gordang posted last night is highly troubling to me, because of the sources involved. For instance, the BBC reporter and The Guardian reporters who seem skeptical of Hamas using human shields. If true, that would contradict most of what we think we know about this crisis. Thoughts?
I don't know what you think you know but the UN has been screaming from the rooftops that Hamas is not using human shields. Amnesty International has said the same. Those schools were not being used to fire at Israel and the video they allegedly used to prove it seems to have come from years ago and even different places. 1600 dead on the Palestinian side mostly women and children. It is ####### disgusting and I for one am sick of my tax dollars paying for this carnage.
UN? Really hanging your hat on what they claim?

 
Some of those things might be accurate, but "debunking" something generally requires a lot more than simply saying "Nuh-uh!"

 
Those Hamas tunnels were built for an estimated $50 million. Maybe they could have used that money in a different way? Maybe to help the 40% unemployed or the destitute population? Every time I want to sympathize with their plight, I find a good reason not to.

 
Those Hamas tunnels were built for an estimated $50 million. Maybe they could have used that money in a different way? Maybe to help the 40% unemployed or the destitute population? Every time I want to sympathize with their plight, I find a good reason not to.
Some of it didn't cost a thing as they found empty bags of cement with UN markings on them that had been meant for schools and hospitals.

 
Those Hamas tunnels were built for an estimated $50 million. Maybe they could have used that money in a different way? Maybe to help the 40% unemployed or the destitute population? Every time I want to sympathize with their plight, I find a good reason not to.
Some of it didn't cost a thing as they found empty bags of cement with UN markings on them that had been meant for schools and hospitals.
Classy

 
Those Hamas tunnels were built for an estimated $50 million. Maybe they could have used that money in a different way? Maybe to help the 40% unemployed or the destitute population? Every time I want to sympathize with their plight, I find a good reason not to.
Some of it didn't cost a thing as they found empty bags of cement with UN markings on them that had been meant for schools and hospitals.
Child labor is pretty cheap too.

 
Bump. The article that Gordang posted last night is highly troubling to me, because of the sources involved. For instance, the BBC reporter and The Guardian reporters who seem skeptical of Hamas using human shields. If true, that would contradict most of what we think we know about this crisis. Thoughts?
I don't know what you think you know but the UN has been screaming from the rooftops that Hamas is not using human shields. Amnesty International has said the same. Those schools were not being used to fire at Israel and the video they allegedly used to prove it seems to have come from years ago and even different places. 1600 dead on the Palestinian side mostly women and children. It is ####### disgusting and I for one am sick of my tax dollars paying for this carnage.
Sure. And Amnesty International and the UN are totally unbiased where Israel is concerned...
How so? What is the source of the bias?
Also honestly curious to learn what makes AI and the UN biased against Israel.

 
AhrnCityPahnder said:
Sinn Fein said:
DCThunder said:
NCCommish said:
timschochet said:
Bump. The article that Gordang posted last night is highly troubling to me, because of the sources involved. For instance, the BBC reporter and The Guardian reporters who seem skeptical of Hamas using human shields. If true, that would contradict most of what we think we know about this crisis. Thoughts?
I don't know what you think you know but the UN has been screaming from the rooftops that Hamas is not using human shields. Amnesty International has said the same. Those schools were not being used to fire at Israel and the video they allegedly used to prove it seems to have come from years ago and even different places. 1600 dead on the Palestinian side mostly women and children. It is ####### disgusting and I for one am sick of my tax dollars paying for this carnage.
Sure. And Amnesty International and the UN are totally unbiased where Israel is concerned...
How so? What is the source of the bias?
Also honestly curious to learn what makes AI and the UN biased against Israel.
Depends who is speaking for the UN? Most of the Human Right Commission member are Arabic or anti-US/Israel countries so it spends the majority of its time condeming Israel. The UN is not inheriently biased against Israel, but some unnamed UN spokesman or body does not mean anything.

 
Hamas may not use human shields...no, they just fire missiles from civilian locations and skedaddle before Israel returns fire. Then they go to the news and say "LOOK ISRAEL BOMBED CIVILIANS".

 
Hamas may not use human shields...no, they just fire missiles from civilian locations and skedaddle before Israel returns fire. Then they go to the news and say "LOOK ISRAEL BOMBED CIVILIANS".
So why is Israel firing there, if Hamas is gone?
You should see Israel trying to play Whack-a-Mole at Chuck-E-Cheese. They are so slow the game takes tickets away from them when it's over.

 
I do not believe that Amnesty International is biased against Israel. This organization condemns the deaths of civilians everywhere, and they don't make a distinction between collateral damage and deliberate intent. They get accused of having a leftist agenda, but it is more correct to say they have a PEACE agenda. I sort of see them as an international version of the ACLU: always willing to fight the good fight, regardless of the political consequences. I don't always agree with them, but we should all be glad they're around.

The United Nations is a different story. It is traditionally anti-western, anti- United States, and anti-israel. The incredible hypocrisy of the General Assembly and its various committees is so blatant it's almost comical.

 
Hamas may not use human shields...no, they just fire missiles from civilian locations and skedaddle before Israel returns fire. Then they go to the news and say "LOOK ISRAEL BOMBED CIVILIANS".
So why is Israel firing there, if Hamas is gone?
You should see Israel trying to play Whack-a-Mole at Chuck-E-Cheese. They are so slow the game takes tickets away from them when it's over.
I shouldn't laugh...but I did

 
johnnycakes said:
To add some gasoline to the fire, there's this from the Washington Post.

What happens before the Israeli military bombs your house? For many Gaza Strip residents, it's a phone call. Sawsan Kawarea, a resident of Khan Younis, said she was in the house Tuesday when the phone rang. She answered, and on the other side was “David," who claimed he was with the Israeli military.

“He asked for me by name. He said: ‘You have women and children in the house. Get out. You have five minutes before the rockets come,’ ” Kawarea said in an interview with The Post's William Booth.

She took her children and ran outside. A small rocket hit the house soon after, Kawarea said. It was apparently the final warning. Five minutes later, a larger missile hit, and the house was destroyed. According to Hamas, seven people, including three minors, were killed in the Israeli airstrike. The man the Israelis were aiming for was apparently not among those killed.

The phone call warning is part of a broader strategy. For years, the Israeli military has been using cellphone calls and small "warning rockets" — usually sent from drones — to tell people which buildings it is targeting and give them time to get out. It's a time-tested strategy for the Israeli military, and it even has a name: "roof knocking." Even if its intentions are good, however, it is a controversial tactic.

The practice dates to at least 2006. "Hi, my name is Danny. I'm an officer in Israeli military intelligence. In one hour we will blow up your house" was the call that Mohammed Deeb got shortly before his home was destroyed that year, according to Britain's Guardian newspaper. During Operation Cast Lead in 2008, the tactic was used again, with phone calls and small missiles used to warn those in buildings being targeted: The Israel Defense Forces blog later said that the airstrikes that year had adhered to the "innovative 'roof-knocking' procedure," and in 2009, Israel's Foreign Ministry said that more than 165,000 phone calls had been made to warn civilians to stay away from targets.

The logic of the tactic is obvious. Israel has long been criticized for the civilian death tolls associated with its military actions in the Palestinian territories. In theory, "roof knocking" gives civilians, and in particular women and children, a chance to escape the buildings being targeted. At worst, Israel can say justifiably say that it tried. But it's also a remarkable display of power. Both the missiles and even the telephone calls show the ease of Israel's reach, as Eyal Weizman explained in a 2012 London Review of Books article:

Israel can penetrate Gaza’s communication networks so easily because its telephone networks and internet infrastructure are routed through Israeli servers, which has advantages both for the gathering of intelligence and the delivery of propaganda.
Some critics say the tactic amounts to psychological warfare. There are reports of "warnings" that are given but no bombing following. There are also instances in which a bombing is not preceded by a warning, or, worse still, the attack may mistakenly destroy the wrong target or produce wider collateral damage – always a risk in cramped areas such as Khan Younis.Human rights groups have argued that targeting the homes of militia members violates international humanitarian law, whether warnings are made or not.

Either way, the warnings are not always heeded. According to Kawarea, after the "warning rocket" hit her house, a group of young men ran inside. It was unclear whether they thought their presence would stop the bombing or whether they wanted to be martyrs.
Roof knocking video here.
The more I think about this policy - the more galling it gets.

Can you imagine getting a phone call that says you have 5 minutes, or even one hour to leave you house before we blow it up?

You have 1 hour to gather everything you can carry on your back, and GTFO because we are going to intentionally destroy everything else in your life. This is just wanton property destruction with no purpose other than to terrorize imo.

By definition you aren't getting any military targets here, because you told them to leave. You are just blowing #### up, just for the sake of blowing #### up.

How can you defend this policy? Because I don't want to live in world where this is acceptable. What would think of someone who did that to you?

 
johnnycakes said:
To add some gasoline to the fire, there's this from the Washington Post.

What happens before the Israeli military bombs your house? For many Gaza Strip residents, it's a phone call. Sawsan Kawarea, a resident of Khan Younis, said she was in the house Tuesday when the phone rang. She answered, and on the other side was “David," who claimed he was with the Israeli military.

“He asked for me by name. He said: ‘You have women and children in the house. Get out. You have five minutes before the rockets come,’ ” Kawarea said in an interview with The Post's William Booth.

She took her children and ran outside. A small rocket hit the house soon after, Kawarea said. It was apparently the final warning. Five minutes later, a larger missile hit, and the house was destroyed. According to Hamas, seven people, including three minors, were killed in the Israeli airstrike. The man the Israelis were aiming for was apparently not among those killed.

The phone call warning is part of a broader strategy. For years, the Israeli military has been using cellphone calls and small "warning rockets" — usually sent from drones — to tell people which buildings it is targeting and give them time to get out. It's a time-tested strategy for the Israeli military, and it even has a name: "roof knocking." Even if its intentions are good, however, it is a controversial tactic.

The practice dates to at least 2006. "Hi, my name is Danny. I'm an officer in Israeli military intelligence. In one hour we will blow up your house" was the call that Mohammed Deeb got shortly before his home was destroyed that year, according to Britain's Guardian newspaper. During Operation Cast Lead in 2008, the tactic was used again, with phone calls and small missiles used to warn those in buildings being targeted: The Israel Defense Forces blog later said that the airstrikes that year had adhered to the "innovative 'roof-knocking' procedure," and in 2009, Israel's Foreign Ministry said that more than 165,000 phone calls had been made to warn civilians to stay away from targets.

The logic of the tactic is obvious. Israel has long been criticized for the civilian death tolls associated with its military actions in the Palestinian territories. In theory, "roof knocking" gives civilians, and in particular women and children, a chance to escape the buildings being targeted. At worst, Israel can say justifiably say that it tried. But it's also a remarkable display of power. Both the missiles and even the telephone calls show the ease of Israel's reach, as Eyal Weizman explained in a 2012 London Review of Books article:

Israel can penetrate Gaza’s communication networks so easily because its telephone networks and internet infrastructure are routed through Israeli servers, which has advantages both for the gathering of intelligence and the delivery of propaganda.
Some critics say the tactic amounts to psychological warfare. There are reports of "warnings" that are given but no bombing following. There are also instances in which a bombing is not preceded by a warning, or, worse still, the attack may mistakenly destroy the wrong target or produce wider collateral damage – always a risk in cramped areas such as Khan Younis.Human rights groups have argued that targeting the homes of militia members violates international humanitarian law, whether warnings are made or not.

Either way, the warnings are not always heeded. According to Kawarea, after the "warning rocket" hit her house, a group of young men ran inside. It was unclear whether they thought their presence would stop the bombing or whether they wanted to be martyrs.
Roof knocking video here.
The more I think about this policy - the more galling it gets.

Can you imagine getting a phone call that says you have 5 minutes, or even one hour to leave you house before we blow it up?

You have 1 hour to gather everything you can carry on your back, and GTFO because we are going to intentionally destroy everything else in your life. This is just wanton property destruction with no purpose other than to terrorize imo.

By definition you aren't getting any military targets here, because you told them to leave. You are just blowing #### up, just for the sake of blowing #### up.

How can you defend this policy? Because I don't want to live in world where this is acceptable. What would think of someone who did that to you?
Yeah, a world in which the IDF bombed places without trying to warn civilians first would be significantly better. This seems to be one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't situations where the IDF is going to get criticized either way.

 
johnnycakes said:
To add some gasoline to the fire, there's this from the Washington Post.

What happens before the Israeli military bombs your house? For many Gaza Strip residents, it's a phone call. Sawsan Kawarea, a resident of Khan Younis, said she was in the house Tuesday when the phone rang. She answered, and on the other side was “David," who claimed he was with the Israeli military.

“He asked for me by name. He said: ‘You have women and children in the house. Get out. You have five minutes before the rockets come,’ ” Kawarea said in an interview with The Post's William Booth.

She took her children and ran outside. A small rocket hit the house soon after, Kawarea said. It was apparently the final warning. Five minutes later, a larger missile hit, and the house was destroyed. According to Hamas, seven people, including three minors, were killed in the Israeli airstrike. The man the Israelis were aiming for was apparently not among those killed.

The phone call warning is part of a broader strategy. For years, the Israeli military has been using cellphone calls and small "warning rockets" — usually sent from drones — to tell people which buildings it is targeting and give them time to get out. It's a time-tested strategy for the Israeli military, and it even has a name: "roof knocking." Even if its intentions are good, however, it is a controversial tactic.

The practice dates to at least 2006. "Hi, my name is Danny. I'm an officer in Israeli military intelligence. In one hour we will blow up your house" was the call that Mohammed Deeb got shortly before his home was destroyed that year, according to Britain's Guardian newspaper. During Operation Cast Lead in 2008, the tactic was used again, with phone calls and small missiles used to warn those in buildings being targeted: The Israel Defense Forces blog later said that the airstrikes that year had adhered to the "innovative 'roof-knocking' procedure," and in 2009, Israel's Foreign Ministry said that more than 165,000 phone calls had been made to warn civilians to stay away from targets.

The logic of the tactic is obvious. Israel has long been criticized for the civilian death tolls associated with its military actions in the Palestinian territories. In theory, "roof knocking" gives civilians, and in particular women and children, a chance to escape the buildings being targeted. At worst, Israel can say justifiably say that it tried. But it's also a remarkable display of power. Both the missiles and even the telephone calls show the ease of Israel's reach, as Eyal Weizman explained in a 2012 London Review of Books article:

Israel can penetrate Gaza’s communication networks so easily because its telephone networks and internet infrastructure are routed through Israeli servers, which has advantages both for the gathering of intelligence and the delivery of propaganda.
Some critics say the tactic amounts to psychological warfare. There are reports of "warnings" that are given but no bombing following. There are also instances in which a bombing is not preceded by a warning, or, worse still, the attack may mistakenly destroy the wrong target or produce wider collateral damage – always a risk in cramped areas such as Khan Younis.Human rights groups have argued that targeting the homes of militia members violates international humanitarian law, whether warnings are made or not.

Either way, the warnings are not always heeded. According to Kawarea, after the "warning rocket" hit her house, a group of young men ran inside. It was unclear whether they thought their presence would stop the bombing or whether they wanted to be martyrs.
Roof knocking video here.
The more I think about this policy - the more galling it gets.

Can you imagine getting a phone call that says you have 5 minutes, or even one hour to leave you house before we blow it up?

You have 1 hour to gather everything you can carry on your back, and GTFO because we are going to intentionally destroy everything else in your life. This is just wanton property destruction with no purpose other than to terrorize imo.

By definition you aren't getting any military targets here, because you told them to leave. You are just blowing #### up, just for the sake of blowing #### up.

How can you defend this policy? Because I don't want to live in world where this is acceptable. What would think of someone who did that to you?
Yeah, a world in which the IDF bombed places without trying to warn civilians first would be significantly better. This seems to be one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't situations where the IDF is going to get criticized either way.
:shrug: maybe they could start with not bombing non-military targets....I mean Hamas blindly lobs rockets hoping to hit anything, while Israel calls up in advance and makes an appointment. Quite courteous of them. Really.

 

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