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Revenge - Forgiveness - Grace. Some thoughts. (2 Viewers)

Joe Bryant

Joe Bryant

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Staff member
I posted this in the Israel War thread but some folks (I think rightfully) suggested it might be it's own thread.

There's a good bit of talk in my world and my Christian friends about revenge.

The natural (and feels like human) response is Eye For An Eye. That feels like justice. That's how it worked in the Old Testament.

But Jesus was painfully explicitly clear on that in the New Testament.

It feels like an incredible instruction and teaching.

​

Matthew 5:38-48​

​

New Living Translation​

​

​

Teaching about Revenge​

38 “You have heard the law that says the punishment must match the injury: ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’[a] 39 But I say, do not resist an evil person! If someone slaps you on the right cheek, offer the other cheek also. 40 If you are sued in court and your shirt is taken from you, give your coat, too. 41 If a soldier demands that you carry his gear for a mile,[b] carry it two miles. 42 Give to those who ask, and don’t turn away from those who want to borrow.​

​

Teaching about Love for Enemies​

43 “You have heard the law that says, ‘Love your neighbor’[c] and hate your enemy. 44 But I say, love your enemies![d] Pray for those who persecute you! 45 In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike. 46 If you love only those who love you, what reward is there for that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much. 47 If you are kind only to your friends,[e] how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that. 48 But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect.​

Click to expand...

My questions for you and for discussion are maybe these:

What do you think of this idea of radical forgiveness?

Have you ever been confronted with a situation in your life where it applied?

Edit to add: I don't want to exclude anyone from this discussion. Feel free to share whatever you have experienced or feel. I mentioned Jesus' teaching on it as I'm a Christian. But for sure don't limit this in any way. Share what you see regardless of your beliefs.
 
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This is a good topic, and it's sort of the flip side of a discussion we got into in the "decline of religion" thread. Christianity has a pretty extreme view on salvation -- as we discussed, a child molester who genuinely repents can be just as "saved" as somebody who's never done anything worse than jaywalking. I see that as a positive message, but I get why it rubs some people the wrong way.

Well, if that's how God thinks about this sort of thing, then it stands to reason that we should tend to be pretty forgiving of one another as well. If God can forgive the child molester, then who am I to do otherwise? (Note: Forgiving the child molester in some spiritual sense is an entirely different issue than keeping the child molester isolated from the rest of society. Good Christians don't believe in prison abolition, but we do think that prisoners should be treated humanely).

Fortunately, I've never been placed in a situation where I was called upon to forgive anybody for anything serious. I would probably struggle with that as a human being.
 
I recently discussed this very topic with a Bible study group this week.

Unforgiveness is a bitter pill and a poison to your soul. Revenge doesn't cure it, only actual forgiveness. I believe Jesus gave us this lesson for the benefit of the person who forgives, not necessarily the forgiven. It is very similar to the idea that it is better to give than to receive.

As for a personal application, I had an employer many years ago now go off the deep end (had a thread in here years ago on it). The business was financially upside down and had reached a point of no return and he just couldn't handle it. He accused everyone of stealing from him and eventually turned on me (the accountant). I was fired, he withheld my last paycheck and an expense check of over $1000. I never received all of it and what I did get had to go through the courts. For literally years after that, I would get harassing phone calls, texts and emails from him. It all negatively effected me a great deal in many ways and I didn't quite know how to handle it psychologically which had some negative effects on my life.

Fast forward to just a few years ago and I'm doing some counseling and realize I haven't forgiven this guy. He hadn't bothered me for 3+ years, but I still harbored a great deal of resentment and anger towards him. So I decided to write him a letter and tell him I forgave him. I tracked down his new address in Texas via the internet and mailed it to him. A week or so later I got a text from him saying thank you and that it took some guts to do that. I finally had forgiven him and it brought some needed peace to my life.

About a month ago I saw him in person for the first time in about 10 years. He was in town because his father was dying and he was at his nephew's football game, which is also my son's team. I looked at him and felt no more anger or resentment. I went up to him, shook his hand and asked him how he was doing. We did some small talk and I expressed my condolences about his father. It was like seeing an old classmate or something.

The thing that most struck me about it was I wasn't upset or thrown off by seeing him. I was totally at peace with it. Had that happened before I wrote that letter, I guarantee you I would have freaked out a little and probably been mentally effected for days as all of the anger and resentment would have resurfaced. But not this time. Because of applying this lesson of forgiveness I was spared more pain. Don't think I'll ever forget that moment.

I know some people have much more to forgive and this lesson is even more difficult, but I'd argue it is even more necessary. Without forgiveness there can be no true healing.
 
I think that being able to forgive, or at the very least let some things slide, is an important part of being a well-adjusted person. I really chafe at those who feel the need to settle the score every single time they've been "disrespected." At an individual level, I've never been in a situation where revenge was the most productive response to a perceived slight, although these incidents have been pretty small potatoes. I certainly don't have enemies or persecutors in the biblical sense.
 
I'm agnostic

If an individual raped my wife/daughter etc, there would be no forgiveness. That's just how I'm wired. I would go Equalizer on the SOB.


When its a larger, macro circumstance, such as the Israeli/Palestinian conflict....each situation would be judged on its own as it is typically significantly more complex without a single person to blame and where there have been a chain of events leading up to whatever tragedy occurred.
 
I will also say I primarily apply this scripture on an individual basis (similar to my story).

Applying it to how a government judges and punishes crimes is not relevant, IMO. A government is beholden to protect its citizenry and uphold the law. Justice is not to be a personal matter, but a corporate one. The Old Covenant is not to be eliminated by Jesus' but fulfilled. Many OT rules were essentially meant for the governance of the nation of Israel at that time.

And to reiterate, forgiveness is a benefit to the forgiver first and foremost.
 
mor·al haz·ard
/ˈmôrəl ˈhazərd/
nounECONOMICS
lack of incentive to guard against risk where one is protected from its consequences, e.g. by insurance.

This applies to economics, but I think is applicable to non-economic situations.
 
There’s forgiveness for past transgressions, which generally is a positive for the forgiver. But there’s also the risk of continued transgressions which is a lot harder to do and when you’re protecting others, the trick is to “forgive” while ensuring it doesn’t happen again.

The turn the other cheek part doesn’t work when people terrorize or harm others. If you kill my cousin Ed, I’m not going to turn and tell you to kill my cousin Jill. If a spouse cheats on their spouse, a natural consequence is the loss of trust and often divorce. even if the person forgives the other, it’s often better to leave that situation.
 
TripItUp said:
mor·al haz·ard
/ˈmôrəl ˈhazərd/
nounECONOMICS
lack of incentive to guard against risk where one is protected from its consequences, e.g. by insurance.

This applies to economics, but I think is applicable to non-economic situations.
Click to expand...
I don't think there's any moral obligation for Christians to be easy marks. If I get scammed, for example, I should forgive the guy who scammed me, but that doesn't mean I need to invest in his next pyramid scheme or that I shouldn't turn him into the cops.
 
I added an edit to the OP:

Edit to add: I don't want to exclude anyone from this discussion. Feel free to share whatever you have experienced or feel. I mentioned Jesus' teaching on it as I'm a Christian. But for sure don't limit this in any way. Share what you see regardless of your beliefs.
 
TripItUp said:
mor·al haz·ard
/ˈmôrəl ˈhazərd/
nounECONOMICS
lack of incentive to guard against risk where one is protected from its consequences, e.g. by insurance.

This applies to economics, but I think is applicable to non-economic situations.
Click to expand...
Yes - it’s practically the entire theory behind civil law.
 
I think Phillip Yancey's book "What's so Amazing about Grace?" quite often when the subject of forgiveness is discussed. At some point, one of the wronged parties has to set aside their need/right for retaliation. Based on what has been done, it can take a great deal of time. I'd like to think I'd be one to always forgive, but I've never been put into some of the difficult situations. others face.
 
I hope this doesn’t come off as sacriligeous and it’s certainly not meant to disrespect my creator, but the one I’ve had to forgive the most in this life is God himself. And I have. I feel that’s an example of radical forgiveness and, yes, it’s been good for my inner peace.
 
popeye said:
I think Phillip Yancey's book "What's so Amazing about Grace?" quite often when the subject of forgiveness is discussed. At some point, one of the wronged parties has to set aside their need/right for retaliation. Based on what has been done, it can take a great deal of time. I'd like to think I'd be one to always forgive, but I've never been put into some of the difficult situations. others face.
Click to expand...

Yes. Like most things, it comes back to the Godfather.

- YouTube

Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.
youtu.be youtu.be

Seriously.

Spoiler but you've seen the scene.

They kill Sonny Corleone as Vito Corleone is recovering at home.

Tom Hagan tells him.

Vito says enough.

At some point, the cycle of revenge has to be broken.

If not, it's a never ending back and forth.
 
It's interesting how many different definitions we all have of what forgiveness is. I think that's created some negative reactions to forgiveness. Personally, I like the definition that forgiveness is letting go of the feeling that I need to administer justice for the wrong someone else has done. It doesn't mean being their friend or putting myself back into harms way. It doesn't mean what they did was ok or that they can do it again. It's leaving the reaction to someone else.

Like many in this thread so far, I don't think I've had anything major that's been difficult to let go of. But, I do find it helpful to practice forgiveness on the small stuff. Maybe that will help when I do face a larger need for forgiveness.
 
bigbottom said:
I hope this doesn’t come off as sacriligeous and it’s certainly not meant to disrespect my creator, but the one I’ve had to forgive the most in this life is God himself. And I have. I feel that’s an example of radical forgiveness and, yes, it’s been good for my inner peace.
Click to expand...
Wow. I haven't experienced near the tragedy you have in your life and I haven’t been able to forgive. It explains why I haven't achieved inner peace. But, I guess it gives me something to strive for.
 
I grew up baptist and am now sort of Catholic. And I think total forgiveness is completely misunderstood from a Biblical sense. Forgiveness for simple mistakes, errors and wrongdoings ... like for accidents or unintentional acts ... is what I think is meant when people say forgive in early Christianity. It's been manipulated through poor translations of Biblical age manuscipts. Whether by the Holy Roman Church, by King James VI, etc. Historians have proven things are left out and added to the texts to make it fit their narrative. King James' bible version certainly did it. Even which books are chosen for the versions. And think of al the other manuscripts left out. Not to mention the apostles were writing most of their texts from memory. Some were written years after Christ died.

My opinion is forgiveness is not meant to forgive poeple that plan and think out their malicious deeds. Murderers. Rapists. Thiefs. Frankly I think the sentence for crimes of this nature should be twice whatever was inflicted on another. You steal something ... you owe that person twice as much. You kill someone, we kill you more gruesome.

The problem w forgiveness of intentional acts of violence is that it leads to that person (and more people) doing worse deeds because the penalty is less than the crime.

To me it's the number one problem in the US. #1. People do thiings to others and don't pay even a fraction of the price of the damage they inflict. It's a daily problem unlike many of the things we fight over.
 
-OZ- said:
The turn the other cheek part doesn’t work when people terrorize or harm others. If you kill my cousin Ed, I’m not going to turn and tell you to kill my cousin Jill.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure "turn the other cheek" was intended for those situations. That's not to say there aren't other arguments for forgiveness of larger things, but Jesus picked three pretty specific examples and none of them are in the category of murder.
 
Joe Bryant said:
popeye said:
I think Phillip Yancey's book "What's so Amazing about Grace?" quite often when the subject of forgiveness is discussed. At some point, one of the wronged parties has to set aside their need/right for retaliation. Based on what has been done, it can take a great deal of time. I'd like to think I'd be one to always forgive, but I've never been put into some of the difficult situations. others face.
Click to expand...

Yes. Like most things, it comes back to the Godfather.

- YouTube

Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.
youtu.be youtu.be

Seriously.

Spoiler but you've seen the scene.

They kill Sonny Corleone as Vito Corleone is recovering at home.

Tom Hagan tells him.

Vito says enough.

At some point, the cycle of revenge has to be broken.

If not, it's a never ending back and forth.
Click to expand...

But this is only correct in instances where people take revenge into their own hands. If it goes through a court of law and a jury of peers determines guilt, then it is not "revenge". It is punishment. And it is "justice" only if the punishment fits the crime. If the punishment is less than the crime, then it is injustice.

If you murder my sister and I plot to murder your sister, that is revenge. If you murder my sister and are convicted by a court of law and sentenced to death, that is punishment. And a just one. But if you are sentenced to 5 years in jail, that is an unjust sentence. I find myself under no obligation to forgive you for what you did. And if whatever god decides that I should have, then so be it.
 
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My MIL always says "I can forgive, but I can't forget". I guess that implies some type of revenge in the future or "don't ask me for any favors in the future".
 
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Forgiveness and unconditional love is tough. No one can achieve it all the time. I know how I would feel if something happened to my family/friends. I find it hard to forgive the Hamas terrorists on what they did to civilians this past week.
 
I think this is all a little too complicated for a turn the other cheek message. That works well with 1 to 1 incidents. Maybe not so well with generational suffering, war, occupation, terror, etc. Both sides view themselves not as acting in revenge but in attempting to defend themselves.
 
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Ilov80s said:
I think this is all a little too complicated for a then the other cheek message. That works well with 1 to 1 incidents. Maybe not so well with generational suffering, war, occupation, terror, etc. Both sides view themselves not as acting in revenge but in attempting to defend themselves.
Click to expand...

this was my larger point
 
bigbottom said:
I hope this doesn’t come off as sacriligeous and it’s certainly not meant to disrespect my creator, but the one I’ve had to forgive the most in this life is God himself. And I have. I feel that’s an example of radical forgiveness and, yes, it’s been good for my inner peace.
Click to expand...
Amen to that.
 
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