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Defensive coaches try to find answers for the read-option (Grantland) (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Raider Nation
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32 Counter Pass
Footballguy
Thanks for posting this. One thing that really struck me watching the read-option unfold in the NFL last year was how unprepared the DE/OLB (unblocked player) was to defend the play. More often than not I saw the defender freeze (stop his feet), giving the QB a lot of running space. The first and most remedial step in countering this play is to change the rush path of the defender. Instead of crashing to pursue the RB backside they should take a rush path to the QB's near shoulder (outside leverage to QB). The defender must be aggressive in his path and close the distance between himself and the QB quickly while the QB is riding the RB, making his read. This will pinch the QB's running lane and allow the defender a good opportunity to lay a hard hit on the QB.
I know this is a very simplistic explanation, but like I said it is the first step to countering the play. There are a lot of other concerns for the defense, as pointed out in the article, but first and foremost is getting a good hit on the QB, whether he gives or keeps. No coach likes to see their QB getting planted, so it is going to put doubt in their minds about this strategy.
I know this is a very simplistic explanation, but like I said it is the first step to countering the play. There are a lot of other concerns for the defense, as pointed out in the article, but first and foremost is getting a good hit on the QB, whether he gives or keeps. No coach likes to see their QB getting planted, so it is going to put doubt in their minds about this strategy.
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
Hitting the QB is pretty much the only proposed solution thus far. And guys like RG3 had already started throwing hands up after the handoff to show the ref they were empty-handed. Those kind of hits are going to be penalized if all the read-option QB's adopt such a quick, obvious defense mechanism. At that point it's too late for the DE/OLB to react to the RB, but there's plenty of time to not hit the QB. If defenders are expected to pull up in less than a second when a QB releases the ball, they'll be expected to do the same when the QB throws his hands up and out after a read-option hand-off.
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Grace Under Pressure
Footballguy
It's worth it, even if it's penalized. Aggressively going after the QB is the best solution I've seen proposed, both from a strategic and practical standpoint. The QB's will start deciding to hand off earlier, and then DE's/OLBs can focus on backside pursuit of the run once the QB has been sufficiently spooked into earlier decision making. I think that's what Tomlin is referring to when he says they're "looking forward to eliminating it". I don't think it's because they're planning on focusing on the RB; they're going to go after the marquis, franchise player and see how much risk these teams are willing to take.
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
Do you realize how big of a deal it's going to be if defenses are purposely taking shots at franchise QB's, ignoring the penalties just to cause future second-guessing on the QB's/coach's part? That's not going to fly for very long, the NFL likes to make money. Defenses targeting QB's on purpose when they know they're going to be flagged is going to lead to big fines and suspensions at some point.
Not because the NFL necessarily wants the read-option to succeed, although exciting offenses are good for ratings, but because I don't think the NFL or Goodell wants to become known as a league who's defenses succeed at stopping a new offensive wrinkle by purposely, flagrantly breaking the rules in order to intimidate opponents.
32 Counter Pass
Footballguy
Conn,
You make a very valid point about allowing defensive players one step then requiring them to pull up. As of now this principle has been applied to a QB dropping back to throw a pass. It will be interesting to see how the refs interpret this rule when the QB is clearly a threat to run. I think that space that we saw between the option defender and QB is going to be substantially reduced more quickly this year due to proper coaching. That option defender is no more than 4 aggressive steps from the QB. I think we can agree even as the rule is applied today is pretty unreasonable. If they officiate the game as you say, I would hate being a DC in the NFL.
You make a very valid point about allowing defensive players one step then requiring them to pull up. As of now this principle has been applied to a QB dropping back to throw a pass. It will be interesting to see how the refs interpret this rule when the QB is clearly a threat to run. I think that space that we saw between the option defender and QB is going to be substantially reduced more quickly this year due to proper coaching. That option defender is no more than 4 aggressive steps from the QB. I think we can agree even as the rule is applied today is pretty unreasonable. If they officiate the game as you say, I would hate being a DC in the NFL.
Grace Under Pressure
Footballguy
Overreact much? The point is the best way to deal with the read-option is to aggressively pursue the QB to pressure him into making quicker decisions. If a team gets a defensive penalty as a result, it's still likely the best strategy to pressure the QB. Not to flagrantly break the rules, or purposefully take shots, you added that part. Nobody's insinuated that but you.
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
Blah blah blah, you both forget that the QB is allowed to be hit during a read option play.
And hit they shall be.
And hit they shall be.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
I think Green Bay showed you exactly how to defend it. Just have George Constanza and Dom Capers in a room together. Dom can call the play and George can call the opposite play. Simple.
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
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Concept Coop
Footballguy
I don't see it happening. While they're at it, they might as well "stop" or "figure out" the play action pass.
If run properly, it puts one defender in a position to be responsible for two guys. There is no secret there. Nothing to figure out, short of trying to predict the play without tipping your hand pre-snap.
Hitting the QB is fine; but what happens when you start adding 15 yard penalties to 10 yard runs, and start losing money? We know what happens - it IS happening. The defenders buckle and go out of their way to protect they guy they're trying to tackle. There is competitive advantage in laying the QB out in any situation, not just the read option. Defenders don't do it and I don't see that changing.
If run properly, it puts one defender in a position to be responsible for two guys. There is no secret there. Nothing to figure out, short of trying to predict the play without tipping your hand pre-snap.
Hitting the QB is fine; but what happens when you start adding 15 yard penalties to 10 yard runs, and start losing money? We know what happens - it IS happening. The defenders buckle and go out of their way to protect they guy they're trying to tackle. There is competitive advantage in laying the QB out in any situation, not just the read option. Defenders don't do it and I don't see that changing.
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
Huh? They're allowed to be hit only because of the possibility that they still have the ball. The problem with that is, the most important part of the play comes before the handoff. That's where all the misdirection is. RG3 started throwing his hands up and out wide after handing the ball off in the read-option, because his job fooling the defense was pretty much done--the DE/OLB had already frozen for that split second.
If defenders start plastering QB's who are quickly and obviously delcaring themselves a non-threat, over and over, it's not going to fly with the NFL.
Ruffrodys05
IBL Representative
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
Junior McSpiffy
Footballguy
When the NFL saw that the safety position was being considered an afterthought, that was when the evolution of the tight end came into being. Huge athletic guys tat allowed passing options out of 2TE sets. Now defenses are being forced to get better, more athletic safeties who are better in coverage instead of just a deep linebacker. This is the same thing, but with defensive ends. With the league becoming as pass-happy as it has the last few years, teams had been investing in pure pass-rushers who have little run responsibilities. That makes sense. So how does the league counter that? Read option... force the DE to make a decision on his way to the quarterback. That's all this is... a way the offense can exploit sack-happy DEs who can't play the run. Over the next couple of years, I suspect we'll see teams willing to put a little more into run-stopping DEs to help counter this. Yes, it will reduce pass-rushing frenzy a small amount, but it will work to counter the counter. And so the chess match goes.
The thing is, this won't ever be "solved" the way the Wildcat was. Once teams realized the best thing to do play run and dare a RB to throw against tight man coverage, it was game over. That can't happen here, because the guy with the ball -can- make throws. But just because it won't get solved and phased out like the Wildcat, it can be gameplanned for and the novelty effect can be minimized. Then the success will be determined by how well the QB can throw the ball. An offense being dictated by the ability of a quarterback to throw? Whooda thunked it?
The thing is, this won't ever be "solved" the way the Wildcat was. Once teams realized the best thing to do play run and dare a RB to throw against tight man coverage, it was game over. That can't happen here, because the guy with the ball -can- make throws. But just because it won't get solved and phased out like the Wildcat, it can be gameplanned for and the novelty effect can be minimized. Then the success will be determined by how well the QB can throw the ball. An offense being dictated by the ability of a quarterback to throw? Whooda thunked it?
GregR
Footballguy
I don't think defenses will just blatantly take out QBs. But the QB is still going to be subject to more hits.
Defenses will hit the QB as much as they can short of getting flagged. If a QB makes his pitch when the defender is 3 steps away so he has time to complete it and get his hands up before the defender is close enough hitting him would be legal... well then the defense forced the QB to commit earlier which is only to the defense's benefit.
So yes I think defenses will hit QBs whenever they can. I'm really not worried they will continually level a QB when they know it will be a penalty. They don't do that now commonly on passes when it would achieve the same thing. But the QB will have less protection than passing unless they change the rules.
Defenses will hit the QB as much as they can short of getting flagged. If a QB makes his pitch when the defender is 3 steps away so he has time to complete it and get his hands up before the defender is close enough hitting him would be legal... well then the defense forced the QB to commit earlier which is only to the defense's benefit.
So yes I think defenses will hit QBs whenever they can. I'm really not worried they will continually level a QB when they know it will be a penalty. They don't do that now commonly on passes when it would achieve the same thing. But the QB will have less protection than passing unless they change the rules.
msommer
Footballguy
I agree with this. I don't buy that players would just accept $10-75k fines for hitting the QB late because their coaches told them to. And the teams can't compensate them - the fallout from that would be a veritable bloodbath. Particularly after Bountygate.
Sure you want to get to the QB, but it has to be before he has shown that he no longer is part of the play
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
Bump.
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Man of Zen
Footballguy
So it's hard to tell what will happen on the field, or how the NFL will react, but initially at least, it appears as though NFL teams intend to do exactly what fans suggest they wouldn't dare do in an NFL that protects their highest-value assets: they intend to go after the QB.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000233287/article/john-madden-defenses-will-attack-readoption-qbs
Should be fun to watch, but I believe more in the ability and willingness of NFL defenses to stop the R-O at all costs than I do in its ability as a scheme to render defenses powerless. It can really only do so if it allows the QB to be both a runner AND a protected class, and I think the more hard-nosed coaches and players around the league intend to put that concept to the test as soon as the defenses turn away from pre-season vanilla.
Imma get my popcorn.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000233287/article/john-madden-defenses-will-attack-readoption-qbs
For good or for ill, I think this season becomes open season on the Kaepernicks and Wilsons. Madden may be a bit of a yahoo, but he is head of the Safety Committee, so he's plugged in to this issue, and I wouldn't wave off his words here as the ramblings of a madman like I do most of what he's said in the past decade.
Should be fun to watch, but I believe more in the ability and willingness of NFL defenses to stop the R-O at all costs than I do in its ability as a scheme to render defenses powerless. It can really only do so if it allows the QB to be both a runner AND a protected class, and I think the more hard-nosed coaches and players around the league intend to put that concept to the test as soon as the defenses turn away from pre-season vanilla.
Imma get my popcorn.
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Yeah, I'd love to let my linebackers get clean shots on a Quarterback. I'd almost be content sending a guy specifically at the Quarterback once or twice a drive.
"Fine, take 5 yards Alfred Morris. Hell, take 15. But for those two-runs we're going to give Robert Griffin III more than he bargained for."
I like it, it's fair game. You want to misdirect? You want your Quarterback to be a runner? Fine, we'll treat him like a runner. I personally want to see a few Quarterback's get blasted.
"Fine, take 5 yards Alfred Morris. Hell, take 15. But for those two-runs we're going to give Robert Griffin III more than he bargained for."
I like it, it's fair game. You want to misdirect? You want your Quarterback to be a runner? Fine, we'll treat him like a runner. I personally want to see a few Quarterback's get blasted.
Man of Zen
Footballguy
I just sort of like that the offseason dialog seems to have gone like this:
"Boy, that read option sure changed things in 2012, huh?"
"Yeah, I guess all you can do is tell your defense to stop worrying and kill the QB."
"I guess that would work, but of course the NFL isn't going to let that happen."
...
"Aw, what the hell, let's kill him anyway and see what happens."
"Boy, that read option sure changed things in 2012, huh?"
"Yeah, I guess all you can do is tell your defense to stop worrying and kill the QB."
"I guess that would work, but of course the NFL isn't going to let that happen."
...
"Aw, what the hell, let's kill him anyway and see what happens."
Man of Zen
Footballguy
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Man of Zen
Footballguy
Well, except for the whole getting fined, penalized, and suspended thing. Which the referees and the rules committee have just officially declared isn't going to be a problem for your defenders if the offense in question happens to be the option.
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I can solve this New Age Read Option in 3 simple steps:
1. Have more talent than the other team.
2. Don't hire bad D-coordinators (c'mon Dom!).
3. Don't over-react to one game.
Seattle didn't have a problem w/ the RO. Baltimore, with their "archaic" offense, won the Super Bowl. Atlanta beat Seattle.
I like the new wrinkle as it expands the game we love. The NFL will always be evolving. The Read Option will be as much of the NFL in 25 years as zone-blitzes, 5-receiver sets, soccer-style kickers and the Tampa-2. Now its the defenses turn to come up with something...and that is awesome!
1. Have more talent than the other team.
2. Don't hire bad D-coordinators (c'mon Dom!).
3. Don't over-react to one game.
Seattle didn't have a problem w/ the RO. Baltimore, with their "archaic" offense, won the Super Bowl. Atlanta beat Seattle.
I like the new wrinkle as it expands the game we love. The NFL will always be evolving. The Read Option will be as much of the NFL in 25 years as zone-blitzes, 5-receiver sets, soccer-style kickers and the Tampa-2. Now its the defenses turn to come up with something...and that is awesome!
Most offenses dont run an unprotected QB directly at an unblocked Julius Peppers. A couple of 20 million dollar QBs getting lit up because they misjudge how fast a DE can get to them, and this thing will go the way of the Wildcat. The reason the option always fails in the pros is that the defenders, particularly ends, are so much faster than in college but the field is the same width.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
The defense needs to come up with something that doesn't involve hitting quarterbacks or receivers. Yay.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
I can't wait to see Harbaugh's reaction when Patrick Willis gets a penalty for hitting Wilson on a fake.
The rule should be QBs only stop being fair game if they roll themselves into the fetal position and sob until the whistle blows.
GregR
Footballguy
I think most of the conversation of late is just Harbaugh trying to gain an edge for his team and looking pretty bad doing it.
QBs are protected when in the act of passing because it requires them to stand there and take a hit and focus on completing the pass instead of lessening the damage of a hit and protecting himself.
A QB who is carrying the ball, or faking carrying the ball, is no less defenseless than anyone else carrying the ball. No less than a RB involved in a play action fake. It's ridiculous for Harbaugh to even propose the rules that exist today give them extra protection in this context and that it needs to be clarified how much.
If they don't want them to be hit like a ball carrier, then don't make them a ball carrier, nor someone faking being a ball carrier. It's that simple. QBs currently can't get hit after they hand off because they aren't part of the play. Don't want him getting hit, stick to that.
QBs are protected when in the act of passing because it requires them to stand there and take a hit and focus on completing the pass instead of lessening the damage of a hit and protecting himself.
A QB who is carrying the ball, or faking carrying the ball, is no less defenseless than anyone else carrying the ball. No less than a RB involved in a play action fake. It's ridiculous for Harbaugh to even propose the rules that exist today give them extra protection in this context and that it needs to be clarified how much.
If they don't want them to be hit like a ball carrier, then don't make them a ball carrier, nor someone faking being a ball carrier. It's that simple. QBs currently can't get hit after they hand off because they aren't part of the play. Don't want him getting hit, stick to that.
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Manster
Footballguy
The whole thing is based on deception. If a defender has to make a split second reaction the QB should be fair game, imo.
I watched Kaep in every game he played at Nevada. When run properly, the QB can avoid a lot of big hits. In other words, if they make the proper read, know when to get down, or out of bounds, they can avoid taking too much punishment. But, if they are running deceptive plays outta the pocket, they are fair game.
With all that said, the read option puts the OLB/DE in a tough spot. See Kaep faking Clay Mathews outta his jock in the playoffs last year. That was a thing of beauty.
Defenses need to have 12 players. 5 linebackers oughta contain it.
I watched Kaep in every game he played at Nevada. When run properly, the QB can avoid a lot of big hits. In other words, if they make the proper read, know when to get down, or out of bounds, they can avoid taking too much punishment. But, if they are running deceptive plays outta the pocket, they are fair game.
With all that said, the read option puts the OLB/DE in a tough spot. See Kaep faking Clay Mathews outta his jock in the playoffs last year. That was a thing of beauty.
Defenses need to have 12 players. 5 linebackers oughta contain it.
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
Harbaugh is such a whinner. This "Im going to hit the QB" thing is way blown out of proportion.
Don't tell me it took 16 NFL Weeks full of games and 4 Playoff games for D-Coordinators to come up with this as a "plan". If so they should all be fired.
Don't tell me it took 16 NFL Weeks full of games and 4 Playoff games for D-Coordinators to come up with this as a "plan". If so they should all be fired.
Man of Zen
Footballguy
It was being called unevenly, and teams were coaching their players to pull up rather than risk penalties, fines, and suspensions. This offseason, the NFL officially laid bare the rules for how and when a defender can blast an option QB, and they did so in a way that surprised people -- including NFL defensive coaches, apparently -- with how liberally they've pushed it in favor of the defense.
DC's didn't do anything wrong last year. This year, they've been given a much freer hand in how they choose to deal with such schemes. If people don't realize the situations are night and day, I can't help them.
I wouldn't want my fantasy or home-team prospects riding on a QB whose only trick was facility with the read-option, either.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
I'm starting to think Jim Schwartz had it right. This is d-baggery of the highest order.
If the defense wants to have the unblocked end make a beeline for the QB every play he still might not be able to get there in time to get his shots in since it's pretty close to a straight hand off if the end commits that early. Bet it results in more personal fouls than it does 'messages' to the QB.
And any damage you do to my read-option QB with your late hits is nothing compared to what I'm going to do to your pocket guy with mine.
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pollardsvision
Footballguy
Pretty fascinating what's going on right now.
We've got a league where throwing for 4500 yards just isn't a big deal anymore, yet stopping a running QB is as difficult as it's ever been. Life has probably never been more difficult for a defensive coordinator (rules obviously playing a role in that).
We've got a league where throwing for 4500 yards just isn't a big deal anymore, yet stopping a running QB is as difficult as it's ever been. Life has probably never been more difficult for a defensive coordinator (rules obviously playing a role in that).
Sabertooth
Footballguy
I agree. Excited to see how this is called today.
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
The QBs are going to get murdered this year.
:Happycamper:
:Happycamper:
Man of Zen
Footballguy
And if they call it by the rules they've set forth, those hits to the read-option QB aren't, in fact, late hits. While your late hits to pocket QB's will result in penalties, fines, and suspensions.
Man of Zen
Footballguy
Early returns?
Pretty modest QB rushing totals for most of the known commodities among read-option guys yesterday. While the less structured T. Pryor had a field day out there.
Eager to see RG3 give it a whirl.
Pretty modest QB rushing totals for most of the known commodities among read-option guys yesterday. While the less structured T. Pryor had a field day out there.
Eager to see RG3 give it a whirl.
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
Because that's incorrect.
The pistol is a formation that you can run anything out of. The read-option can be run out of the pistol.
32 Counter Pass
Footballguy
At this point I think we can say D coordinators have figure out the read option, and it was pretty much as I outlined.
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Looks like they found the answers they were looking for.
Wilson is rushing for 37 yards per game.
RG3 is rushing for 34 yards per game.
Kaepernick is rushing for 33 yards per game.
Wilson is rushing for 37 yards per game.
RG3 is rushing for 34 yards per game.
Kaepernick is rushing for 33 yards per game.
