pantagrapher
Footballguy
I think it's one of the dumbest judgment calls official scorekeepers get to make. What say you?
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Defensive Indifference (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter pantagrapher
- Start date
shadyridr
Footballguy
I hate it too. I think they should just call those SBs regardless if they try to get them out.
pantagrapher
Footballguy
For those who are internally conflicted or noncommittal.
pantagrapher
Footballguy
cheese
Footballguy
I see a huge difference between a guy stealing a base when the defense is trying to hold him on versus him jogging to 2nd because nobody is even covering.
One is some oppurtunity and some skill. The other is almost all oppurtunity and a little bit of common sense.
I'm ok with not giving a steal there.
One is some oppurtunity and some skill. The other is almost all oppurtunity and a little bit of common sense.
I'm ok with not giving a steal there.
pantagrapher
Footballguy
But he still stole the base.
the word steal, by definition, implies taking something someone else has that they don't want you to have.When no one on the other team cares whether you take the base or not, you are not really stealing it. It's also pretty cut and dry for the scorekeeper to determine. If the pitcher doesn't pitch from the stretch, no one covers the base, and the catcher doesn't make any effort at all to get out of the crouch early and/or throw to the base, that's about as indifferent as the team can get.
pantagrapher
Footballguy
ETA: If you want to argue that it makes sense according to the rule book, I'll grant that. The rule is clear. I'm just saying the rule is dumb.
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pantagrapher
Footballguy
So the player himself doesn't want to be credited with a stolen base?
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
I kind of like it
B Maverick
Footballguy
maybe they should count it as a different type of SB like a BB and a IBB. Call it DISB? Baseball counts everything, why not count this too?
I do think its hard to give someone a stolen base when they basically given it. Its like favre laying down for Strahan to get the sack record.
I do think its hard to give someone a stolen base when they basically given it. Its like favre laying down for Strahan to get the sack record.
Mookie Blaylock
Footballguy
Why does this matter?
Liquid Tension
Footballguy
The other team is not holding him on and they are saying I don't care if you take the base as your run is meaningless so we won't even throw. You rarely see it unless it is late in the game and outs matter most to the leading team. Now you could argue that an intnetional walk shouldn't count either, but the intentional walk is usually because you are a better hitter than the guy behind you and/or there is an open base to put you behind another runner.I think it is OK and I don't think I can recall a time where I disagreed with the decision to not award it.
pantagrapher
Footballguy
Because it affects statistics.
pantagrapher
Footballguy
I realize there's a difference between this and an intentional walk, which is why I didn't bring that up. I just think that if a runner steals a base, that fact should show up in his stats. The baserunner does not necessarily know that the defense will not attempt to throw him out.
Mookie Blaylock
Footballguy
Right, but does anyone who doesn't play fantasy baseball care about this? I'm just asking. I'm not knocking fantasy baseball or those who play.
pantagrapher
Footballguy
My concern about it has nothing to do with fantasy baseball. I don't have any players I can think of who have been victimized by this rule lately. My team is doing fine in steals. I've always been interested in baseball stats—it's part of being a baseball fan. I've never agreed with this rule and early in the season Bob Brenley brought it up during a Cubs game. He thinks it's a dumb rule and Len Kasper agrees with him. Just thought I'd bring it up in the Baseball Forum to see what other people thought. Figured it might be a fun debate.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
The answer is yes and it has more to do with a gentleman's agreement than anything else. It's not supposed to penalize the player who takes second when his team down 8-1, but prevent the guy looking for 70 steals from taking second when his team is up 8-1. That's the way I interpret it anyway.
Liquid Tension
Footballguy
You are not correct here. if they are holding the guy on then he would get the SB. It is indifference when they don;t hold him on and they don't bother making the throw. He knows which is why he took the base.
Liquid Tension
Footballguy
I stated this above, but an intentional walk is pretty much earned because they don't want to pitch to you and risk getting a hit. Setting up the DP is fine, but there is a reason why the pitcher is not intentionally walked.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Apples and oranges. That makes no sense whatsoever as IBB are issued in many circumstances while DI is limited to very specific scenarios.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
I'd like to see the rule on that. Are you sure there is language involving hold or is it simply the reponse of the catcher and 2b/SS? I really never looked at this rule or cared but I might as well learn something here.
eagles2007
Footballguy
it's called a fielder's choice. the defense, rather than risk throwing to second with a seven-run lead, concentrates on the batter at hand.
i don't have a problem with it.
i don't have a problem with it.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
That's probably the best explanation. I'd still like to see the rule but am too lazy to look for it.
NY/NJMFDIVER
Footballguy
Because he lost his game by one steal last week.
Lots of good info in this thread. Here's the official rule from MLB:
10.07 Stolen Bases And Caught Stealing
(g) The official scorer shall not score a stolen base when a runner advances solely because of the defensive team's indifference to the runner’s advance. The official scorer shall score such a play as a fielder's choice.
Rule 10.07(g) Comment: The scorer shall consider, in judging whether the defensive team has been indifferent to a runner’s advance, the totality of the circumstances, including the inning and score of the game, whether the defensive team had held the runner on base, whether the pitcher had made any pickoff attempts on that runner before the runner’s advance, whether the fielder ordinarily expected to cover the base to which the runner advanced made a move to cover such base, whether the defensive team had a legitimate strategic motive to not contest the runner’s advance or whether the defensive team might be trying impermissibly to deny the runner credit for a stolen base. For example, with runners on first and third bases, the official scorer should ordinarily credit a stolen base when the runner on first advances to second, if, in the scorer’s judgment, the defensive team had a legitimate strategic motive—namely, preventing the runner on third base from scoring on the throw to second base—not to contest the runner’s advance to second base. The official scorer may conclude that the defensive team is impermissibly trying to deny a runner credit for a stolen base if, for example, the defensive team fails to defend the advance of a runner approaching a league or career record or a league statistical title
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/offic...l_scorer_10.jsp
10.07 Stolen Bases And Caught Stealing
(g) The official scorer shall not score a stolen base when a runner advances solely because of the defensive team's indifference to the runner’s advance. The official scorer shall score such a play as a fielder's choice.
Rule 10.07(g) Comment: The scorer shall consider, in judging whether the defensive team has been indifferent to a runner’s advance, the totality of the circumstances, including the inning and score of the game, whether the defensive team had held the runner on base, whether the pitcher had made any pickoff attempts on that runner before the runner’s advance, whether the fielder ordinarily expected to cover the base to which the runner advanced made a move to cover such base, whether the defensive team had a legitimate strategic motive to not contest the runner’s advance or whether the defensive team might be trying impermissibly to deny the runner credit for a stolen base. For example, with runners on first and third bases, the official scorer should ordinarily credit a stolen base when the runner on first advances to second, if, in the scorer’s judgment, the defensive team had a legitimate strategic motive—namely, preventing the runner on third base from scoring on the throw to second base—not to contest the runner’s advance to second base. The official scorer may conclude that the defensive team is impermissibly trying to deny a runner credit for a stolen base if, for example, the defensive team fails to defend the advance of a runner approaching a league or career record or a league statistical title
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/offic...l_scorer_10.jsp
pantagrapher
Footballguy
As I said before, I know the rule. The rule is stupid.
pantagrapher
Footballguy
Fielder's choice is fine with me for the catcher and pitcher's stats. They decided not to contest the steal. But give the baserunner his steal.
I didn't know the wording of the rule myself; after looking it up, I agree with it.
DoubleG
Footballguy
Another reason is that catchers and pitchers are charged for stolen bases against them. Do you penalize the catcher for a non-caught stealing? And the pitcher for a SB against? Statistically it makes no sense to award a SB to the runner, then not charge the defensive players with it.
Spartans Rule
Footballguy
For those who want the runner to get a SB on a DI... shouldn't he also get a SB on a wild pitch or passed ball? If whether or not the defense attempts to make a play on the runner is irrelevant, those gotta count too, no?
In baseball, you always look at the reason a runner advanced. It's not a hit if the defense throws out a runner at second, it's not a double if he takes second while the defense throws home, and it's not a stolen base if the defense concedes the base.
In baseball, you always look at the reason a runner advanced. It's not a hit if the defense throws out a runner at second, it's not a double if he takes second while the defense throws home, and it's not a stolen base if the defense concedes the base.
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Brock Middlebrook
Footballguy
Why would you want give a guy a SB that was totally unearned?
pantagrapher
Footballguy
If they were charged for the stolen base, maybe they wouldn't be so indifferent. There are plenty of times a catcher doesn't bother to throw because the base is "stolen on the pitcher." Should it still show up on the catcher's stats when it's the pitcher's fault?
pantagrapher
Footballguy
Because he recognized the game situation and stole a base.
Brock Middlebrook
Footballguy
He didn't steal it - the defense gave it to him.pantagrapher said:
pantagrapher
Footballguy
It's not like they formally offer it to him in advance. They might do certain things that lead him to believe they won't try to throw him out, but they could just as easily be baiting him.The runner is taking a risk to advance on a pitched ball and, if successful, he gets nothing for it.
pantagrapher
Footballguy
Here are the numbers of DI calls per year since the rule was instituted (can't seem to track down #s for 2005-2007, but will add them if someone can:
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