Washington County's right on the WV border, right? My dad's family is from Armstrong County, a couple counties northeast actually . I would characterize it as having "pockets of affluence". In all seriousness, would you consider any of the West Virginia Counties that border that region of Pennsylvania as anything other than impoverished? Any of those Ohio counties on the west bank of the River? Maybe they aren't in PA, but they're literally just a county or 2 away from Washington County, PA. I don't know, but I wager that none of the counties in that region (aside from Allegheny) meet the average median household income for their respective state as a whole. Obviously there are always going to be areas of affluence, but we'll have to disagree on their relative distribution and frequency in the region.I grew up there too. The North Hills and South Hills areas - more than 15 minutes outside of Pittsburgh - are very affluent. As is most of all of northern Washington County. There are pockets of poverty, but you've got to be in your 50s and 60s to even vaguely remember a predominance of active coal mining activity.I hail from western PA. My mom's family hails primarily from eastern OH, right on the river. My maternal grandfather's family comes from West Virginia coal country. Lots of Welsh background on my mom's side (both of her parents' families) -- a wee people who were very useful in the coal mines of the region way back when.Please.Tennessee_ATO said:Add Western PA to that list too. West Opennsyltucky, baby. Not Deep South, but it's something that's for damn sure.Binky The Doormat said:yeah well SE Ohio and WVA may very well lead that pack.Scoresman said:any state where the average number of teeth per mouth is roughly equal to the number of children per household.
I know of which I speak.
You knew of which you spoke.
Allegheny and Butler counties around Pittsburgh are above state average. Washington and Westmoreland are just barely below, but in the top 15 counties in the state (averages skewed by a few counties in the Philadelphia area).Washington County's right on the WV border, right? My dad's family is from Armstrong County, a couple counties northeast actually . I would characterize it as having "pockets of affluence". In all seriousness, would you consider any of the West Virginia Counties that border that region of Pennsylvania as anything other than impoverished? Any of those Ohio counties on the west bank of the River? Maybe they aren't in PA, but they're literally just a county or 2 away from Washington County, PA. I don't know, but I wager that none of the counties in that region (aside from Allegheny) meet the average median household income for their respective state as a whole. Obviously there are always going to be areas of affluence, but we'll have to disagree on their relative distribution and frequency in the region.I grew up there too. The North Hills and South Hills areas - more than 15 minutes outside of Pittsburgh - are very affluent. As is most of all of northern Washington County. There are pockets of poverty, but you've got to be in your 50s and 60s to even vaguely remember a predominance of active coal mining activity.I hail from western PA. My mom's family hails primarily from eastern OH, right on the river. My maternal grandfather's family comes from West Virginia coal country. Lots of Welsh background on my mom's side (both of her parents' families) -- a wee people who were very useful in the coal mines of the region way back when.Please.Tennessee_ATO said:Add Western PA to that list too. West Opennsyltucky, baby. Not Deep South, but it's something that's for damn sure.Binky The Doormat said:yeah well SE Ohio and WVA may very well lead that pack.Scoresman said:any state where the average number of teeth per mouth is roughly equal to the number of children per household.
I know of which I speak.
You knew of which you spoke.
And, FWIW 2 of my great grandfathers were coal miners who both died of TB. Obviously there was more mining in West Virginia, but we're just talking 1 and 2 counties to the west or south of Washington County, no? I know that there is still quite a bit of production in Hancock and Monongalia -- just to your west and south, right? My maternal grandfather worked in the potteries until that industry went overseas, then he worked in the steel mills until that industry went overseas. My dad fled the region as quickly as he finished at Pitt. I'm not in my 50's, but I absolutely remember coming through the tunnels into Pittsburgh to see the shocking air pollution. Pittsburgh has done a remarkable job remaking itself -- still one of my favorite cities in the country -- but in the '70's and early '80's the pollution in Pittsburgh from the coal was still (literally) breathtaking.
I know of what I speak. Mayhaps my family didn't run in the affluent circles of yours, so we know things from different perspectives.
NC is not at all Deep South. Especially with the last 20 years of innovation growth and the universities. I've flat out been told that although I went to NC as a kid, it's "not really the south"Then what is the "south east"??Rick James said:Georgia
Alabama
South Carolina
Tennessee
North Carolina
Mississippi
Southern Kentucky
Northern Florida
Louisiana
I think OPM hit it on the head with his first post.NC is not at all Deep South. Especially with the last 20 years of innovation growth and the universities. I've flat out been told that although I went to NC as a kid, it's "not really the south"Then what is the "south east"??Rick James said:Georgia
Alabama
South Carolina
Tennessee
North Carolina
Mississippi
Southern Kentucky
Northern Florida
Louisiana
I think that list is more southeast outside of TN or KY - neither of which I think of as Deep South at all.
NC definitely really is the south, but it is not the Deep South even though it shares some common traits.NC is not at all Deep South. Especially with the last 20 years of innovation growth and the universities. I've flat out been told that although I went to NC as a kid, it's "not really the south"Then what is the "south east"??Rick James said:Georgia
Alabama
South Carolina
Tennessee
North Carolina
Mississippi
Southern Kentucky
Northern Florida
Louisiana
I think that list is more southeast outside of TN or KY - neither of which I think of as Deep South at all.
Oh, I totally agree. Just relaying what deep southerners have told me, more than once. Anything South of Arlington is South.NC definitely really is the south, but it is not the Deep South even though it shares some common traits.NC is not at all Deep South. Especially with the last 20 years of innovation growth and the universities. I've flat out been told that although I went to NC as a kid, it's "not really the south"I think that list is more southeast outside of TN or KY - neither of which I think of as Deep South at all.Then what is the "south east"??Rick James said:Georgia
Alabama
South Carolina
Tennessee
North Carolina
Mississippi
Southern Kentucky
Northern Florida
Louisiana
I don't specifically remember mills -- I remember the pollution that hit you across the face as you came out of the mountain. None of that there now -- it's a gorgeous city IMO.Allegheny and Butler counties around Pittsburgh are above state average. Washington and Westmoreland are just barely below, but in the top 15 counties in the state (averages skewed by a few counties in the Philadelphia area).Washington County's right on the WV border, right? My dad's family is from Armstrong County, a couple counties northeast actually . I would characterize it as having "pockets of affluence". In all seriousness, would you consider any of the West Virginia Counties that border that region of Pennsylvania as anything other than impoverished? Any of those Ohio counties on the west bank of the River? Maybe they aren't in PA, but they're literally just a county or 2 away from Washington County, PA. I don't know, but I wager that none of the counties in that region (aside from Allegheny) meet the average median household income for their respective state as a whole. Obviously there are always going to be areas of affluence, but we'll have to disagree on their relative distribution and frequency in the region.I grew up there too. The North Hills and South Hills areas - more than 15 minutes outside of Pittsburgh - are very affluent. As is most of all of northern Washington County. There are pockets of poverty, but you've got to be in your 50s and 60s to even vaguely remember a predominance of active coal mining activity.I hail from western PA. My mom's family hails primarily from eastern OH, right on the river. My maternal grandfather's family comes from West Virginia coal country. Lots of Welsh background on my mom's side (both of her parents' families) -- a wee people who were very useful in the coal mines of the region way back when.Please.Tennessee_ATO said:Add Western PA to that list too. West Opennsyltucky, baby. Not Deep South, but it's something that's for damn sure.Binky The Doormat said:yeah well SE Ohio and WVA may very well lead that pack.Scoresman said:any state where the average number of teeth per mouth is roughly equal to the number of children per household.
I know of which I speak.
You knew of which you spoke.
And, FWIW 2 of my great grandfathers were coal miners who both died of TB. Obviously there was more mining in West Virginia, but we're just talking 1 and 2 counties to the west or south of Washington County, no? I know that there is still quite a bit of production in Hancock and Monongalia -- just to your west and south, right? My maternal grandfather worked in the potteries until that industry went overseas, then he worked in the steel mills until that industry went overseas. My dad fled the region as quickly as he finished at Pitt. I'm not in my 50's, but I absolutely remember coming through the tunnels into Pittsburgh to see the shocking air pollution. Pittsburgh has done a remarkable job remaking itself -- still one of my favorite cities in the country -- but in the '70's and early '80's the pollution in Pittsburgh from the coal was still (literally) breathtaking.
I know of what I speak. Mayhaps my family didn't run in the affluent circles of yours, so we know things from different perspectives.
The disparities get much greater as you get to the borders of WV. Greene County ranks 60th (out of 67) and Fayette County ranks 65th (of 67). So you may be partially right with regard to those two counties, but "15 minutes outside of Pittsburgh" doesn't hold water. The MSA of Pittsburgh is generally much stronger than that.
The last meaningful steel production in Pittsburgh was in 1983 and it had been dying for awhile, so you probably didn't really see much but dead, inactive mills in the 80s. Certainly in the 70s, but if you're not in your 50s, as you proclaim, then you're citing memories from your very early years. There was some more production that lasted a little longer to the east of the city, but by and large it was all gone by the mid 80s.
I was never affluent and I had a grandfather that worked in the steel industry too. But even so, I can't lump most of western PA in with WV as you attempted to do.
What the "'Deep South' concept" doesn't lend itself to is comprehensive discussion of the demographic, economic and geographic details of Western PA. Might as well be discussing mountain ranges in the South America...I don't specifically remember mills -- I remember the pollution that hit you across the face as you came out of the mountain. None of that there now -- it's a gorgeous city IMO.Allegheny and Butler counties around Pittsburgh are above state average. Washington and Westmoreland are just barely below, but in the top 15 counties in the state (averages skewed by a few counties in the Philadelphia area).Washington County's right on the WV border, right? My dad's family is from Armstrong County, a couple counties northeast actually . I would characterize it as having "pockets of affluence". In all seriousness, would you consider any of the West Virginia Counties that border that region of Pennsylvania as anything other than impoverished? Any of those Ohio counties on the west bank of the River? Maybe they aren't in PA, but they're literally just a county or 2 away from Washington County, PA. I don't know, but I wager that none of the counties in that region (aside from Allegheny) meet the average median household income for their respective state as a whole. Obviously there are always going to be areas of affluence, but we'll have to disagree on their relative distribution and frequency in the region.I grew up there too. The North Hills and South Hills areas - more than 15 minutes outside of Pittsburgh - are very affluent. As is most of all of northern Washington County. There are pockets of poverty, but you've got to be in your 50s and 60s to even vaguely remember a predominance of active coal mining activity.I hail from western PA. My mom's family hails primarily from eastern OH, right on the river. My maternal grandfather's family comes from West Virginia coal country. Lots of Welsh background on my mom's side (both of her parents' families) -- a wee people who were very useful in the coal mines of the region way back when.Please.Tennessee_ATO said:Add Western PA to that list too. West Opennsyltucky, baby. Not Deep South, but it's something that's for damn sure.Binky The Doormat said:yeah well SE Ohio and WVA may very well lead that pack.Scoresman said:any state where the average number of teeth per mouth is roughly equal to the number of children per household.
I know of which I speak.
You knew of which you spoke.
And, FWIW 2 of my great grandfathers were coal miners who both died of TB. Obviously there was more mining in West Virginia, but we're just talking 1 and 2 counties to the west or south of Washington County, no? I know that there is still quite a bit of production in Hancock and Monongalia -- just to your west and south, right? My maternal grandfather worked in the potteries until that industry went overseas, then he worked in the steel mills until that industry went overseas. My dad fled the region as quickly as he finished at Pitt. I'm not in my 50's, but I absolutely remember coming through the tunnels into Pittsburgh to see the shocking air pollution. Pittsburgh has done a remarkable job remaking itself -- still one of my favorite cities in the country -- but in the '70's and early '80's the pollution in Pittsburgh from the coal was still (literally) breathtaking.
I know of what I speak. Mayhaps my family didn't run in the affluent circles of yours, so we know things from different perspectives.
The disparities get much greater as you get to the borders of WV. Greene County ranks 60th (out of 67) and Fayette County ranks 65th (of 67). So you may be partially right with regard to those two counties, but "15 minutes outside of Pittsburgh" doesn't hold water. The MSA of Pittsburgh is generally much stronger than that.
The last meaningful steel production in Pittsburgh was in 1983 and it had been dying for awhile, so you probably didn't really see much but dead, inactive mills in the 80s. Certainly in the 70s, but if you're not in your 50s, as you proclaim, then you're citing memories from your very early years. There was some more production that lasted a little longer to the east of the city, but by and large it was all gone by the mid 80s.
I was never affluent and I had a grandfather that worked in the steel industry too. But even so, I can't lump most of western PA in with WV as you attempted to do.
It's not just me who includes western PA with WV and eastern OH. The real exclusion is actually the Pittsburgh MSA, not western PA. "Western Pennsylvania" is typified by that region of the state culturally more akin to West Virginia and separated from the rest of the state by the Appalachians. The Appalachian Regional Commission includes that portion of the state as well.
I thought the "15 minutes" would carry you out of that Pittsburgh MSA "hole", but obviously I undershot that time. I should have said "30 minutes outside of Pittsburgh" or maybe even "45 minutes outside of Pittsburgh". The traditional measure or rural PA is the "T" that excludes the Philadelphia and Pittsburgh MSAs, but in my experience that "T" isn't entirely accurate on the western side of the state at least (I don't have any knowledge about eastern PA at all). For example, Fayette County (65th of 67) is part of the Pittsburgh MSA.
Since you went all researchy on me, I guess I have to as well.
Here are the rankings of the Pittsburgh MSA counties in household income in PA:
Allegheny (Pitt) -- 6th
Butler -- 7th
Washington -- 14th (below PA and US averages, as are the rest below this point)
Westmoreland -- 16th
Beaver -- 22nd
Armstrong -- 36th
Fayette -- 65th (average per capita income is actually closer to the poverty level than to the PA average)
So I missed my prediction by 1 county.
It really becomes evident once you move to the next ring of counties past those contiguous to Allegheny (i.e., Pennsyvlania counties abutting the Pittsburgh MSA but not in it, and all considered "western PA") --none of them are particularly close to the PA or US averages:
Mercer -- 38th
Lawrence -- 41st
Cambria -- 44th
Indiana -- 53rd
Venango -- 55th
Jefferson -- 58th
Clarion -- 59th
Greene -- 60th
Somerset -- 62nd
I didn't include Blair (actually the county of my birth, although I lived there for less than a year, then we moved to Washington) or Clearfield Counties even though they technically fit the parameters and are both considered "West Pennsylvania" because they seem to be pretty far away from the region I was specifically referencing, but including them certainly wouldn't change things much (29th and 61st respectively).
I feel pretty comfortable with my assertion, even if I was a bit light on my distance out of Pittsburgh.
I know making generalizations always opens you up to criticism upon detailed research, but the whole "Deep South" concept pretty much lends itself to generalizations.
Pretty much. Kinda funny that some teacher from Chula Vista knows the boundaries of the Deep South better than a bunch of Southerners.I think OPM hit it on the head with his first post.
Third world country if the rest of the US wasn't carrying it.
True enough.True, RL. Idiot Boxer and I have gotten far afield. I made a throw away comment, he made a one-word challenge of it. 156,678 words and 4 posts later it's escalated. Sorry about that.
I don't get to have my first beer?True enough.True, RL. Idiot Boxer and I have gotten far afield. I made a throw away comment, he made a one-word challenge of it. 156,678 words and 4 posts later it's escalated. Sorry about that.
Good talk, Russ.
To put it in perspective, this question got almost that exact amount of the vote here in the FFA:Interesting quick read. Pretty telling numbers from the Wheeling Convention link: 37,451 Virginians voted against secession (against 132,201 for). Of those 37,451 votes, an estimated 34,677 came from counties that would comprise West Virginia, which means 2774 people in modern Virginia voted against secession (against 113,080 for).wdcrob said:This seems about right to me. The southeaster counties were more loyal to Virginia/the Confederacy.Tennessee_ATO said:West Virginia soldiery numbers in the Civil War have never been reliable. If I remember my Civil War history right, I think both the Confederacy and the Union drafted soldiers out of West Virginia. Either way, there's no dispute that West Virginia seceded from Virginia because Virginia seceded from the Union and because Richmond and the agricultural low country didn't really give much of a rat's ### about the mountain country.Joe Summer said:"detailed studies have concluded that there were nearly equal numbers of Union and Confederate soldiers."GoFishTN said:West Virginia was a Union state. All yours GB.Jack%20White said:I recently came back from a trip to the "Deep" South.
Quite frankly, I find these people anything but deep.
I was in West Virgina. This is the kind of place where people read the Sunday comics with a yellow highlighter, in case they stumble upon a particularly meaningful passage in Beetle Bailey.
I went to my first square dance in West Virginia. Here's an activity I don't get nearly enough of, huh? I go out to dance, I go to express myself. These people are into being ordered around the floor by some neo-fascist Sam Drucker, some bizarre BF Skinner hoedown.
Could we fashion any referendum that would get a 97.6% yes vote today?
Do you think Kate Beckinsale is good looking?
Yep (357 votes [97.54%])![]()
- Nope (9 votes [2.46%])
manitobaDo Canadians consider southern Ontario to be their Deep South?
If you were born in Blair County, you've already had plenty.I don't get to have my first beer?True enough.True, RL. Idiot Boxer and I have gotten far afield. I made a throw away comment, he made a one-word challenge of it. 156,678 words and 4 posts later it's escalated. Sorry about that.
Good talk, Russ.
Makes sense. Stupid Manitobians.manitobaDo Canadians consider southern Ontario to be their Deep South?
I have no memories of Altoona, but from the pictures of my infancy I'd say your generalization is statistically sound.If you were born in Blair County, you've already had plenty.I don't get to have my first beer?True enough.True, RL. Idiot Boxer and I have gotten far afield. I made a throw away comment, he made a one-word challenge of it. 156,678 words and 4 posts later it's escalated. Sorry about that.
Good talk, Russ.
That's about right, sadly.
Here you go.![]()
I see things like that here...minus the loser/traitor flag.
"Dump the Dog Eater"? That's a new one for me.Here you go.![]()
I see things like that here...minus the loser/traitor flag.
Truth.Louisiana is debatable...New Orleans is 2.5 hours away from me and that's a different world.
Alabama, Mississippi, Southern half of Georgia, parts of South Carolina Northern Florida and panhandle, and Louisiana North of Baton Rouge.
Add Arkansas and this works for me.Alabama, Mississippi, Southern half of Georgia, Northern Florida and panhandle, and Louisiana.
Is this typical non-Deep South parenting?
Yeah, my bad. I blew the joke. Correction follows.How did you ever come away with the impression that West Virginia was part of the south?I recently came back from a trip to the "Deep" South.
Quite frankly, I find these people anything but deep.
I was in West Virgina. This is the kind of place where people read the Sunday comics with a yellow highlighter, in case they stumble upon a particularly meaningful passage in Beetle Bailey.
I went to my first square dance in West Virginia. Here's an activity I don't get nearly enough of, huh? I go out to dance, I go to express myself. These people are into being ordered around the floor by some neo-fascist Sam Drucker, some bizarre BF Skinner hoedown.
Northern TN and Southern Kentucky are same as the rest of the South.Whole states:
Alabama
Georgia
Mississippi
South Carolina
Partial:
Southern parts of North Carolina and Tennessee
Northern parts of Florida
Eastern parts of Louisiana and Arkansas