Deion Branch Negotiations Not Going Well (1 Viewer)

[David Yudkin]

LINK

To summarize (as I see it) . . .

- Branch wants Reggie Wayne like money (who signed for 6 years, $39M with a $13.5M signing bonus)

- The Pats apparently are offering David Givens like money (who signed for 5 years, $24M with an $8M signing bonus)

- Branch is holding fast that that's the money he wants because his numbers are on par with Wayne's.

- Branch apparently seems prepared to play the least amount of time to still be able to become a free agent after the season. That translates to sitting until Week 10 and playing the final 8 games of the season.

 

[Big Score]

- Branch apparently seems prepared to play the least amount of time to still be able to become a free agent after the season. That translates to sitting until Week 10 and playing the final 8 games of the season.

Brain Fart?You meant the last 6 games right?

 

[David Yudkin]

- Branch apparently seems prepared to play the least amount of time to still be able to become a free agent after the season.  That translates to sitting until Week 10 and playing the final 8 games of the season.

Brain Fart?You meant the last 6 games right?

Nope. He'd play in weeks 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 = 8 games.

 

[Tau837]

LINK

To summarize (as I see it) . . .

- Branch wants Reggie Wayne like money (who signed for 6 years, $39M with a $13.5M signing bonus)

- The Pats apparently are offering David Givens like money (who signed for 5 years, $24M with an $8M signing bonus)

- Branch is holding fast that that's the money he wants because his numbers are on par with Wayne's.

- Branch apparently seems prepared to play the least amount of time to still be able to become a free agent after the season. That translates to sitting until Week 10 and playing the final 8 games of the season.

His numbers are on par with Wayne's? Wayne:

+--------------------------+-------------------------+                 |          Rushing         |        Receiving        |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| Year  TM |   G |   Att  Yards    Y/A   TD |   Rec  Yards   Y/R   TD |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| 2001 ind |  13 |     0      0    0.0    0 |    27    345  12.8    0 || 2002 ind |  16 |     0      0    0.0    0 |    49    716  14.6    4 || 2003 ind |  16 |     0      0    0.0    0 |    68    838  12.3    7 || 2004 ind |  16 |     1     -4   -4.0    0 |    77   1210  15.7   12 || 2005 ind |  16 |     0      0    0.0    0 |    83   1055  12.7    5 |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+|  TOTAL   |  77 |     1     -4   -4.0    0 |   304   4164  13.7   28 |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

Branch:

+--------------------------+-------------------------+                 |          Rushing         |        Receiving        |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| Year  TM |   G |   Att  Yards    Y/A   TD |   Rec  Yards   Y/R   TD |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| 2002 nwe |  13 |     2      0    0.0    0 |    43    489  11.4    2 || 2003 nwe |  15 |     1     11   11.0    0 |    57    803  14.1    3 || 2004 nwe |   9 |     0      0    0.0    0 |    35    454  13.0    4 || 2005 nwe |  16 |     0      0    0.0    0 |    78    998  12.8    5 |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+|  TOTAL   |  53 |     3     11    3.7    0 |   213   2744  12.9   14 |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

I think Branch has been listening a bit too much to his agent.

 

[David Yudkin]

Branch (or his agent) is looking only at 2005 numbers with Wayne being "the WR with the closest numbers to Branch."

 

[KnowledgeReignsSupreme]

He deserves Jerry Porter money.

 

[T Man]

LINK

To summarize (as I see it) . . .

- Branch wants Reggie Wayne like money (who signed for 6 years, $39M with a $13.5M signing bonus)

- The Pats apparently are offering David Givens like money (who signed for 5 years, $24M with an $8M signing bonus)

- Branch is holding fast that that's the money he wants because his numbers are on par with Wayne's.

- Branch apparently seems prepared to play the least amount of time to still be able to become a free agent after the season.  That translates to sitting until Week 10 and playing the final 8 games of the season.

His numbers are on par with Wayne's? Wayne:

                +--------------------------+-------------------------+                 |          Rushing         |        Receiving        |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| Year  TM |   G |   Att  Yards    Y/A   TD |   Rec  Yards   Y/R   TD |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| 2001 ind |  13 |     0      0    0.0    0 |    27    345  12.8    0 || 2002 ind |  16 |     0      0    0.0    0 |    49    716  14.6    4 || 2003 ind |  16 |     0      0    0.0    0 |    68    838  12.3    7 || 2004 ind |  16 |     1     -4   -4.0    0 |    77   1210  15.7   12 || 2005 ind |  16 |     0      0    0.0    0 |    83   1055  12.7    5 |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+|  TOTAL   |  77 |     1     -4   -4.0    0 |   304   4164  13.7   28 |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+Branch:

                +--------------------------+-------------------------+                 |          Rushing         |        Receiving        |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| Year  TM |   G |   Att  Yards    Y/A   TD |   Rec  Yards   Y/R   TD |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| 2002 nwe |  13 |     2      0    0.0    0 |    43    489  11.4    2 || 2003 nwe |  15 |     1     11   11.0    0 |    57    803  14.1    3 || 2004 nwe |   9 |     0      0    0.0    0 |    35    454  13.0    4 || 2005 nwe |  16 |     0      0    0.0    0 |    78    998  12.8    5 |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+|  TOTAL   |  53 |     3     11    3.7    0 |   213   2744  12.9   14 |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

I think Branch has been listening a bit too much to his agent.

He needs to perform another year to get bigger money, and I still can't see it being Wayne money. With Dillon healthier, and Maroney, I do not see the Pats as being as pass happy as last year.

 

[Godsbrother]

Branch should have gotten the hint they weren't going to make him an outlandish offer when they drafted Chad Jackson.

 

[Bri]

when is this supposed to be finished?

If by next season well then it's probably a good strategy to "ask for the moon" now. Later meet in the middle etc. If soon, they'd better lower that number or start listing teams he'd like to go to.

 

[mbuehner]

Branch is out of his mind. If the Pats intended to pay Reggie Wayne money for a wide receiver, they'd have gone and got Reggie Wayne.

 

[Shiver44]

Branch has all the power in these negotiations, and he knows it. He knows the team is weak at WR, with Reche Caldwell and Chad Jackson at starting Wide Receiver if he doesn't play. They need him, desperately.

 

[David Yudkin]

when is this supposed to be finished?

If by next season well then it's probably a good strategy to "ask for the moon" now. Later meet in the middle etc. If soon, they'd better lower that number or start listing teams he'd like to go to.

Branch has one season left on the contract he signed as a rookie. Here were the salaries that Branch has played for.2002 225000.00

2003 300000.00

2004 380000.00

2005 455000.00

2006 1045000.00

It doens't appear that the team gave him anything for being Super Bowl MVP. I don't recall if he had a bonus clause in his contract, but they certainly did not redo his deal or give him any additional money. He may have had other incentives to give him a few extra bucks, but the Pats did not give him anything "extra" over the years. That's part of what's fueling this . . .

He clearly has been underpaid, but I don't think your second contract is normally intended to "make good" for being underpaid in the past.

 

[Big Score]

- Branch apparently seems prepared to play the least amount of time to still be able to become a free agent after the season.  That translates to sitting until Week 10 and playing the final 8 games of the season.

Brain Fart?You meant the last 6 games right?

Nope. He'd play in weeks 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 = 8 games.

If, as you say, he's wanting to play the least amount of games possible, but still accure an NFL season, then he wouldn't he want to sit out the first 10 games & play the last 6?

 

[Banger]

LOL, that's a pretty penny to pay a wr that hasn't got 1,000 yards receiving or 6 td's. Ya, he's had injuries, ya they spread the ball around but he's crazy if he thinks he gonna get close to Wayne money.

 

[by_the_sea_wannabe]

Branch has all the power in these negotiations, and he knows it. He knows the team is weak at WR, with Reche Caldwell and Chad Jackson at starting Wide Receiver if he doesn't play. They need him, desperately.

yeah the patriots are known for caving in on such matters.

 

[AB in DC]

Here were the salaries that Branch has played for.

2002 225000.00

2003 300000.00

2004 380000.00

2005 455000.00

2006 1045000.00

It doens't appear that the team gave him anything for being Super Bowl MVP.

There's no evidence on this one way or the other. It looks like you're getting salary data from NFLPA.org, but those numbers say nothing about bonuses, incentives, etc. Any time he renegotiates a contract, it'll show up on that database as making minimum base salary, but he'll get a signing bonus and other bonuses/incentives.

 

[Winston Wolfe]

The article in question from the Boston Globe reads more like an opinion piece rather than being based on recent comments from the team or Branch's camp.

 

[David Yudkin]

- Branch apparently seems prepared to play the least amount of time to still be able to become a free agent after the season.  That translates to sitting until Week 10 and playing the final 8 games of the season.

Brain Fart?You meant the last 6 games right?

Nope. He'd play in weeks 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 = 8 games.

If, as you say, he's wanting to play the least amount of games possible, but still accure an NFL season, then he wouldn't he want to sit out the first 10 games & play the last 6?

I believe you have to play in 8 games for it to count as a season played based on the collective bargaining agreement with the NFLPA. I can't see how playing in less than half the season could count as a season's worth of experience.

 

[Buckna]

LINK

To summarize (as I see it) . . .

- Branch wants Reggie Wayne like money (who signed for 6 years, $39M with a $13.5M signing bonus)

- The Pats apparently are offering David Givens like money (who signed for 5 years, $24M with an $8M signing bonus)

- Branch is holding fast that that's the money he wants because his numbers are on par with Wayne's.

- Branch apparently seems prepared to play the least amount of time to still be able to become a free agent after the season. That translates to sitting until Week 10 and playing the final 8 games of the season.

Here are Given's numbers:

+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| Rushing | Receiving |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| 2002 nwe | 11 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 9 92 10.2 1 |

| 2003 nwe | 13 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 34 510 15.0 6 |

| 2004 nwe | 15 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 56 874 15.6 3 |

| 2005 nwe | 13 | 2 13 6.5 0 | 59 738 12.5 2 |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| TOTAL | 52 | 2 13 6.5 0 | 158 2214 14.0 12 |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

vs. Branch

+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| Rushing | Receiving |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| 2002 nwe | 13 | 2 0 0.0 0 | 43 489 11.4 2 |

| 2003 nwe | 15 | 1 11 11.0 0 | 57 803 14.1 3 |

| 2004 nwe | 9 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 35 454 13.0 4 |

| 2005 nwe | 16 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 78 998 12.8 5 |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| TOTAL | 53 | 3 11 3.7 0 | 213 2744 12.9 14 |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

I can see why the Pats want to give Givens money, but there are some mitigating circumstances beyond the stats in Branch's favor such as his injury in '04 that kept him out of a lot of games and his Superbowl MVP trophy.As for Reggie Wayne money, well Reggie's stats are inflated by his year in '04 when Peyton broke the TD record. Even so, it seems to be asking for the moon and the stars on Branch's part if that is indeed what he is looking for. Perhaps this is just a negotiation tactic and they will end up meeting in the middle?

 

[Chase Stuart]

- Branch apparently seems prepared to play the least amount of time to still be able to become a free agent after the season. That translates to sitting until Week 10 and playing the final 8 games of the season.

Brain Fart?You meant the last 6 games right?

Nope. He'd play in weeks 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 = 8 games.

If, as you say, he's wanting to play the least amount of games possible, but still accure an NFL season, then he wouldn't he want to sit out the first 10 games & play the last 6?

I believe you have to play in 8 games for it to count as a season played based on the collective bargaining agreement with the NFLPA. I can't see how playing in less than half the season could count as a season's worth of experience.

The old rule is you had to play in 6 games. I don't believe that's changed, but I could be wrong.

 

[AB in DC]

I think that a team is allowed two weeks to place a returning player onto the active roster. That may explain the discrepancy -- he'll have to report by week 10 and then be activated by week 12.

 

[WhoDat]

Branch has all the power in these negotiations, and he knows it. He knows the team is weak at WR, with Reche Caldwell and Chad Jackson at starting Wide Receiver if he doesn't play. They need him, desperately.

yeah the patriots are known for caving in on such matters.

Exactly. The Patriots have what appear to be a sound and successful performance model. It could be suggested that in that model no single player is greater than the team. There have been no moves by the Patriots front office to indicate that they will cave to a player's demands. Historical precedent shows that Branch is operating at a slight to significant disadvantage in this negotiation. More specifically, the team's best player and leader, Brady, took less than market value to stay with the team. Brady inked a deal that was financially beneficial to himself and not financially damning to the Patriots salary cap.

Branch is getting into a pissing contest with an extremely strong headwind.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Branch has all the power in these negotiations, and he knows it. He knows the team is weak at WR, with Reche Caldwell and Chad Jackson at starting Wide Receiver if he doesn't play. They need him, desperately.

yeah the patriots are known for caving in on such matters.

Exactly. The Patriots have what appear to be a sound and successful performance model. It could be suggested that in that model no single player is greater than the team. There have been no moves by the Patriots front office to indicate that they will cave to a player's demands. Historical precedent shows that Branch is operating at a slight to significant disadvantage in this negotiation. More specifically, the team's best player and leader, Brady, took less than market value to stay with the team. Brady inked a deal that was financially beneficial to himself and not financially damning to the Patriots salary cap.

Branch is getting into a pissing contest with an extremely strong headwind.

Even if all that is true, that's only telling one side of the story. We've got no idea how hard of a negotiator Branch and his agent is. There have been no moves by Branch to indicate that he will cave to a team's demands.For what it's worth, I doubt we'll see a Branch holdout.

 

[Tau837]

Branch is out of his mind. If the Pats intended to pay Reggie Wayne money for a wide receiver, they'd have gone and got Reggie Wayne.

Branch has all the power in these negotiations, and he knows it. He knows the team is weak at WR, with Reche Caldwell and Chad Jackson at starting Wide Receiver if he doesn't play. They need him, desperately.

yeah the patriots are known for caving in on such matters.

Exactly. The Patriots have what appear to be a sound and successful performance model. It could be suggested that in that model no single player is greater than the team. There have been no moves by the Patriots front office to indicate that they will cave to a player's demands. Historical precedent shows that Branch is operating at a slight to significant disadvantage in this negotiation. More specifically, the team's best player and leader, Brady, took less than market value to stay with the team. Brady inked a deal that was financially beneficial to himself and not financially damning to the Patriots salary cap.

Branch is getting into a pissing contest with an extremely strong headwind.

 

[Tau837]

when is this supposed to be finished?

If by next season well then it's probably a good strategy to "ask for the moon" now. Later meet in the middle etc. If soon, they'd better lower that number or start listing teams he'd like to go to.

Branch has one season left on the contract he signed as a rookie. Here were the salaries that Branch has played for.2002 225000.00

2003 300000.00

2004 380000.00

2005 455000.00

2006 1045000.00

It doens't appear that the team gave him anything for being Super Bowl MVP. I don't recall if he had a bonus clause in his contract, but they certainly did not redo his deal or give him any additional money. He may have had other incentives to give him a few extra bucks, but the Pats did not give him anything "extra" over the years. That's part of what's fueling this . . .

He clearly has been underpaid, but I don't think your second contract is normally intended to "make good" for being underpaid in the past.

Please explain this. It isn't so clear to me.

 

[Bri]

when is this supposed to be finished?

If by next season well then it's probably a good strategy to "ask for the moon" now. Later meet in the middle etc. If soon, they'd better lower that number or start listing teams he'd like to go to.

Branch has one season left on the contract he signed as a rookie. Here were the salaries that Branch has played for.2002 225000.00

2003 300000.00

2004 380000.00

2005 455000.00

2006 1045000.00

It doens't appear that the team gave him anything for being Super Bowl MVP. I don't recall if he had a bonus clause in his contract, but they certainly did not redo his deal or give him any additional money. He may have had other incentives to give him a few extra bucks, but the Pats did not give him anything "extra" over the years. That's part of what's fueling this . . .

He clearly has been underpaid, but I don't think your second contract is normally intended to "make good" for being underpaid in the past.

well then they have time and like I said before I figure it's normal negotiating tactic for his agent to start high.I suppose he could be offended he's underpaid or even that they re-upped Seymour for big money and not him but....he doesn't seem dopey. I'd bet he knows the business side of things.

thanks for the info

 

[Bri]

when is this supposed to be finished?

If by next season well then it's probably a good strategy to "ask for the moon" now. Later meet in the middle etc. If soon, they'd better lower that number or start listing teams he'd like to go to.

Branch has one season left on the contract he signed as a rookie. Here were the salaries that Branch has played for.2002 225000.00

2003 300000.00

2004 380000.00

2005 455000.00

2006 1045000.00

It doens't appear that the team gave him anything for being Super Bowl MVP. I don't recall if he had a bonus clause in his contract, but they certainly did not redo his deal or give him any additional money. He may have had other incentives to give him a few extra bucks, but the Pats did not give him anything "extra" over the years. That's part of what's fueling this . . .

He clearly has been underpaid, but I don't think your second contract is normally intended to "make good" for being underpaid in the past.

Please explain this. It isn't so clear to me.

til 2006 he was near the minimum

 

[David Yudkin]

when is this supposed to be finished?

If by next season well then it's probably a good strategy to "ask for the moon" now. Later meet in the middle etc. If soon, they'd better lower that number or start listing teams he'd like to go to.

Branch has one season left on the contract he signed as a rookie. Here were the salaries that Branch has played for.2002 225000.00

2003 300000.00

2004 380000.00

2005 455000.00

2006 1045000.00

It doens't appear that the team gave him anything for being Super Bowl MVP. I don't recall if he had a bonus clause in his contract, but they certainly did not redo his deal or give him any additional money. He may have had other incentives to give him a few extra bucks, but the Pats did not give him anything "extra" over the years. That's part of what's fueling this . . .

He clearly has been underpaid, but I don't think your second contract is normally intended to "make good" for being underpaid in the past.

Please explain this. It isn't so clear to me.

Basically, you have a team's #1 WR that was a SB MVP playing for the league minimum. His salary was much more indictative of a 4th or 5th string WR than that as a team's primary receiver.To add fuel to the fire, the Pats decided to give Seymour an extra million dollars last year because his contract was so low. The team has set the precident that they are open to giving people more money without extending contracts and also that they will negotiate extensions (at least for Brady and Seymour).

While I personally do not think that Branch is worth the Wayne like numbers that he's asking for, I certainly think he is due more than the league minimum (or close to it) that he's been making up until this year. IMO, if Givens is worth $4M a year, then Branch is worth that much or more.

I don't see the Pats uping the ante to $6.5 million a year on average to keep Branch. Given that the Pats are still millions and millions under the cap, one has to wonder what they plan on doing will all the free cap money. ho else is available that they are interested in with around $15 million to spend? Ty Law and ???

 

[Frenchy Fuqua]

Some important points from Branch's agent's perspective:

1) The Pats have the most salary cap space of any team in the NFL for 2006 (reported at over $15 mill). They have the ability to pay him what he wants or close to it.

2) Branch is a Super Bowl MVP and currently the only proven WR on a team that is expected to contend for another Super Bowl in 2006. He's likely to be the focus of their passing game this year and put up big numbers. Why sign a below -market deal now when his value may be greater after the 2006 season than it is now.

3) Branch is one year away from becoming a free agent. If the Pats don't offer him what he wants now perhaps another team will in 2007.

The Pats will face public pressure to re-sign Branch because they have the cap room and are viewed as one of the favorites in the AFC. The Pats can't afford to blow it due to a holdout.

 

[WhoDat]

Branch has all the power in these negotiations, and he knows it. He knows the team is weak at WR, with Reche Caldwell and Chad Jackson at starting Wide Receiver if he doesn't play. They need him, desperately.

yeah the patriots are known for caving in on such matters.

Exactly. The Patriots have what appear to be a sound and successful performance model. It could be suggested that in that model no single player is greater than the team. There have been no moves by the Patriots front office to indicate that they will cave to a player's demands. Historical precedent shows that Branch is operating at a slight to significant disadvantage in this negotiation. More specifically, the team's best player and leader, Brady, took less than market value to stay with the team. Brady inked a deal that was financially beneficial to himself and not financially damning to the Patriots salary cap.

Branch is getting into a pissing contest with an extremely strong headwind.

Even if all that is true, that's only telling one side of the story. We've got no idea how hard of a negotiator Branch and his agent is. There have been no moves by Branch to indicate that he will cave to a team's demands.For what it's worth, I doubt we'll see a Branch holdout.

You are right. It is hard to determine the how, what, when and why thought process of Branch's camp. It is hard to predict what their, Branch's people, will establish as a walk away point. It is even more difficult to decipher how much of this article is the writer's opinion versus fact. What is the balance between the two in the piece? There is no telling. Was the writer enlisted or urged to put pen to paper by one of the interested parties? Again it is hard to say.I just know what I see at first glance. The Patriots are not going to forfeit a team identity to pacify Branch. Such a paradigm shift in team philolosphy, while negotiating a contract, would cause irrevocable damage. I cannot get past how Brady handled his contract talks and I feel confident suggesting the Partiots will use that as Exhibit 1, when talks do begin with Branch and Co. That is some damn strong leverage, which was my point.

Branch, if he is going to stand pat, is in for a long fight.

 

[Chase Stuart]

I just know what I see at first glance. The Eagles are not going to forfeit a team identity to pacify Owens. Such a paradigm shift in team philolosphy, while negotiating a contract, would cause irrevocable damage.

Fixed. I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here, but I do think New England would look bad to lowball Branch considering his stellar Super Bowl success and how low they are under the cap. Hard to cry broke with that much money around.

 

[WhoDat]

I just know what I see at first glance.  The Eagles are not going to forfeit a team identity to pacify Owens.  Such a paradigm shift in team philolosphy, while negotiating a contract, would cause irrevocable damage. 

Fixed. I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here, but I do think New England would look bad to lowball Branch considering his stellar Super Bowl success and how low they are under the cap. Hard to cry broke with that much money around.

The Eagles and T. Owens...where do you start with that fiasco? No doubt a valuable lesson learned by 31 NFL teams. Too bad Jones' pride got in the way of his ability to reason this spring.

The smart move is to sign Branch but the price will be realistic. I do not see the Pats stiffing Branch but I do not see them overpaying for his services.

 

[Tau837]

when is this supposed to be finished?

If by next season well then it's probably a good strategy to "ask for the moon" now. Later meet in the middle etc. If soon, they'd better lower that number or start listing teams he'd like to go to.

Branch has one season left on the contract he signed as a rookie. Here were the salaries that Branch has played for.2002 225000.00

2003 300000.00

2004 380000.00

2005 455000.00

2006 1045000.00

It doens't appear that the team gave him anything for being Super Bowl MVP. I don't recall if he had a bonus clause in his contract, but they certainly did not redo his deal or give him any additional money. He may have had other incentives to give him a few extra bucks, but the Pats did not give him anything "extra" over the years. That's part of what's fueling this . . .

He clearly has been underpaid, but I don't think your second contract is normally intended to "make good" for being underpaid in the past.

Please explain this. It isn't so clear to me.

Basically, you have a team's #1 WR that was a SB MVP playing for the league minimum. His salary was much more indictative of a 4th or 5th string WR than that as a team's primary receiver.To add fuel to the fire, the Pats decided to give Seymour an extra million dollars last year because his contract was so low. The team has set the precident that they are open to giving people more money without extending contracts and also that they will negotiate extensions (at least for Brady and Seymour).

While I personally do not think that Branch is worth the Wayne like numbers that he's asking for, I certainly think he is due more than the league minimum (or close to it) that he's been making up until this year. IMO, if Givens is worth $4M a year, then Branch is worth that much or more.

I don't see the Pats uping the ante to $6.5 million a year on average to keep Branch. Given that the Pats are still millions and millions under the cap, one has to wonder what they plan on doing will all the free cap money. ho else is available that they are interested in with around $15 million to spend? Ty Law and ???

I am constantly surprised how many people on this board side with the players on contract issues.First and foremost, Branch has made the minimum, along with a $1M signing bonus, because that is the contract he merited and willingly signed as a rookie. He hasn't gone out and shocked the world. He has marginally outperformed his contract, and in doing so has earned some incentives that raise his salary this year above the minimum. Oh, and because he got drafted by the Pats, he also earned some extra money via his playoff shares... not sure how much that is.

Why do so many have such a hard time with the concept that the rookie contract is not designed to reward players handsomely unless they are high first round picks? Such players understand the system, and have to set up a payday with contract #2 through their play on the field. Branch has done that, but in doing so has not greatly outperformed his contract IMO.

Now some specifics on Branch himself.

1. Yes, Branch is the current #1. One could argue that he has been their #1 since 2003.

1a. That said, he was not technically their #1 in 2004, at least not statistically, due to his injury. He had a whopping 35 catches, and somehow the Pats managed to go 14-2 with his minimal contribution. This is exhibit A for why I disagree that he is underpaid.

1b. In reality, he really has been a co #1 with Givens since 2003. Since the start of 2003:

Branch 170/2255/12 in 40 games

Givens 149/2122/12 in 41 games

How about postseason?

Branch 41/629/2 in 8 games

Givens 35/324/7 in those same 8 games

Sure, Branch happened to have two big Super Bowls, but Givens was just as critical, if not more so, given how many TDs he put up in the postseason.

They were content to let Givens walk. What makes anyone think they have to lock up Branch? And if they do, it looks like he pretty much deserves Givens money to me.

1c. Even if you want to call him the #1, when he has been healthy, he he has been one of the weakest #1 WRs in the NFL. While fantasy stats don't necessarily translate to real life, consider that he has finished as WR70, WR36, WR58, and WR22 in his four seasons. Excuse me if I'm not blown away.

2. Enough with the SB MVP hype already. IMO that had more to do with Brady than Branch himself, and I already showed that Givens was just as valuable if not moreso.

3. What the Pats did for Seymour really has little to do with what they need to do with Branch. Seymour was much more critical to keep on the team, because he would be much harder to replace.

I'm of the opinion that the Pats can find WRs to plug into this offense with Brady. I doubt they are extremely worried about losing Branch if it comes to that, and I agree with others that they aren't likely to break their normal pattern for him.

 

[Jason Wood]

1) David Givens was overpaid

2) Reggie Wayne is overpaid

3) David Givens got "David Givens Money" from the Titans, not the Pats

4) Chad Jackson could/should be better than Branch in a year or two

Just not seeing how Branch warrants that kind of compensation or, more importantly, why his agent thinks what other teams do has any bearing on how Belichick and Pioli approach contract negotiations.

 

[AB in DC]

Ugh.

For the Nth time, a player's salary is NOT indicative of his total compensation.

Almost everyone in the NFL makes as much money from signing bonuses, other bonuses, and incentives as from their base salaries.

This is especailly true when you think about players who restructure their contract (converting base salary into a new signing bonus) to help their team's cap situation.

None of this is reflected in the NFLPA salary figures that have been quoted in this thread.

 

[David Yudkin]

Ugh.

For the Nth time, a player's salary is NOT indicative of his total compensation.

Almost everyone in the NFL makes as much money from signing bonuses, other bonuses, and incentives as from their base salaries.

This is especailly true when you think about players who restructure their contract (converting base salary into a new signing bonus) to help their team's cap situation.

None of this is reflected in the NFLPA salary figures that have been quoted in this thread.

Brnach got a $1 million signing bonus when he signed his initial contract, so add in $200K per year to the numbers listed and he still was not breaking the bank.Since coming into the league, Branch has ranked 28th in receptions, 38th in receiving yards, and 46th in receiving TD in those 4 seasons. Certainly not great numbers, but he has missed his fair share of time. He's also won 2 rings and was SB MVP (if either of those merit anything).

Guys drafted ahead of him in his 2002 draft class were:

1-13 Donte Stallworth

1-19 Ashley Lelie

1-20 Javon Walker

2-1 Jabar Gaffney

2-4 Josh Reed

2-14 Tim Carter

2-15 Andre Davis

2-16 Reche Caldwell

2-30 Antwaan Randle El

2-31 Antonio Bryant

I almost always side with the contract that was signed (you signed it, you live with it), but Branch appears to have done better than most guys on that list.

- Walker just signed for 5 years, $40M, with a $15M signing bonus

- Gaffney is still playing under his first contract (7 years, $5.38 million contract with a then record $2.15M signing bonus that was highest ever for a 2nd round pick)

- Davis just signed a 1-year deal worth $1.3 million with a $500K signing bonus (who the Pats didn't want back)

- Randle El just signed a 4-year, $20M deal with $6M up front

- Bryant joined the 49ers for 4 years, $15M, including $5 million up front

- Reed resigned for 4 years and $10 million

- Even new teammate Reche Caldwell signed for 2 years at roughly $1M per season

Where does Branch slot in comparison to these other guys . . . Better talent? Better numbers? Worse talent? Lower paycheck? Too high? Too low?

As I said earlier, IMO he's been underpaid, but that doesn't translate into more money in his next contract. And no matter how you slice it, FOR THIS YEAR he is the Pats #1 WR--Givens is gone and there does not seem to be anyone else to fill that role.

 

[Tau837]

Since coming into the league, Branch has ranked 28th in receptions, 38th in receiving yards, and 46th in receiving TD in those 4 seasons

I'm sure his agent will use this as an argument, but honestly, so what? Is he compared only to those who entered the league in his class? No. He is compared to the collective pool of WRs in the league. And in comparison to that pool, you can use the fantasy rankings to see his relative worth: an average of about 46th best or so.

And no matter how you slice it, FOR THIS YEAR he is the Pats #1 WR--Givens is gone and there does not seem to be anyone else to fill that role.

Sure, they are better off with him this year. But what if he tore his ACL tomorrow? Do we really think the Pats offense would struggle? I'd expect them to make do with Caldwell, Jackson, Brown, and whatever else they can come up with. Maybe that's my real problem here. I just haven't ever seen anything impressive from Branch that would cause me to think he deserves a big contract. To me he seems like a player who can be replaced easily enough with a lower cost alternative. And the Pats typically do just that with that type of player, unless the player is willing to sign for a discount.

 

[David Yudkin]

Since coming into the league, Branch has ranked 28th in receptions, 38th in receiving yards, and 46th in receiving TD in those 4 seasons

I'm sure his agent will use this as an argument, but honestly, so what? Is he compared only to those who entered the league in his class? No. He is compared to the collective pool of WRs in the league. And in comparison to that pool, you can use the fantasy rankings to see his relative worth: an average of about 46th best or so.

And no matter how you slice it, FOR THIS YEAR he is the Pats #1 WR--Givens is gone and there does not seem to be anyone else to fill that role.

Sure, they are better off with him this year. But what if he tore his ACL tomorrow? Do we really think the Pats offense would struggle? I'd expect them to make do with Caldwell, Jackson, Brown, and whatever else they can come up with. Maybe that's my real problem here. I just haven't ever seen anything impressive from Branch that would cause me to think he deserves a big contract. To me he seems like a player who can be replaced easily enough with a lower cost alternative. And the Pats typically do just that with that type of player, unless the player is willing to sign for a discount.

The numbers in the first part that you quoted were his rankings FOR ALL WR in those categories in the span from 2002-2005.If Branch refuses to play for a fair amount of time, that would leave Caldwell (career high of 28 receptions) and Troy Brown (39 receptions last year) AS THE ONLY WR ON THE ROSTER with more than 3 CAREER RECEPTIONS.

Bam Childress 3

John Stone 3

Zuriel Smith 3

Chad Jackson 0

Michael McGrew 0

Matt Shelton 0

Erik Davis 0

Rich Musinski 0

Given the complexity of the Pats offense, I do not agree that the players are all plug and play. Would N.E. want to hang their hats on those guys with a collective 9 career receptions?

 

[ROCKET]

The Pats will face public pressure to re-sign Branch because they have the cap room and are viewed as one of the favorites in the AFC. The Pats can't afford to blow it due to a holdout.

The Pats brass (BB, Pioli, Kraft) will not hear a peep if they choose not to give in to Branch and he sits out. Aside from letting Brady or Seymour go the fans will trust in most any decision they make. Alot of us are'nt thrilled that Adam wasn't brought back but with all these guys have done for this franchise they are almost untouchable. Branch has no leverage, the team will go on without him and still be in the hunt. If he sits out he'll be the biggest loser out of the whole situation. I hope we let him walk if he wants huge $$. Let some idiot pay him Randal El $$ and move on. If you're going to break the bank for a wr he at least should be a stud. Branch isn't one.

 

[T Man]

Since coming into the league, Branch has ranked 28th in receptions, 38th in receiving yards, and 46th in receiving TD in those 4 seasons

I'm sure his agent will use this as an argument, but honestly, so what? Is he compared only to those who entered the league in his class? No. He is compared to the collective pool of WRs in the league. And in comparison to that pool, you can use the fantasy rankings to see his relative worth: an average of about 46th best or so.

And no matter how you slice it, FOR THIS YEAR he is the Pats #1 WR--Givens is gone and there does not seem to be anyone else to fill that role.

Sure, they are better off with him this year. But what if he tore his ACL tomorrow? Do we really think the Pats offense would struggle? I'd expect them to make do with Caldwell, Jackson, Brown, and whatever else they can come up with. Maybe that's my real problem here. I just haven't ever seen anything impressive from Branch that would cause me to think he deserves a big contract. To me he seems like a player who can be replaced easily enough with a lower cost alternative. And the Pats typically do just that with that type of player, unless the player is willing to sign for a discount.

The numbers in the first part that you quoted were his rankings FOR ALL WR in those categories in the span from 2002-2005.If Branch refuses to play for a fair amount of time, that would leave Caldwell (career high of 28 receptions) and Troy Brown (39 receptions last year) AS THE ONLY WR ON THE ROSTER with more than 3 CAREER RECEPTIONS.

Bam Childress 3

John Stone 3

Zuriel Smith 3

Chad Jackson 0

Michael McGrew 0

Matt Shelton 0

Erik Davis 0

Rich Musinski 0

Given the complexity of the Pats offense, I do not agree that the players are all plug and play. Would N.E. want to hang their hats on those guys with a collective 9 career receptions?

I agree that the Pats don't want to have to hang their hats on the WR corps after Caldwell, Brown and Jackson. . . but . . . if it means meeting the demands of Branch, my guess is they will (and I think they should).Branch may have performed better then most in his draft class, but that means little at this juncture. While he has had his moments, he has not been spectacular. He has had one good season. I think they'll offer him good money, but not the top money he wants and thinks he deserves.

I just don't think Branch is the type of player the Pats will (or should) pay excessively. That's why they drafted Jackson. And, because they drafted Maroney (and with Dillon healthy) I don't see them relying on the pass quite as much.

 

[KnowledgeReignsSupreme]

He deserves Jerry Porter money.

Deion Branch

+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| Rushing | Receiving |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| 2002 nwe | 13 | 2 0 0.0 0 | 43 489 11.4 2 |

| 2003 nwe | 15 | 1 11 11.0 0 | 57 803 14.1 3 |

| 2004 nwe | 9 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 35 454 13.0 4 |

| 2005 nwe | 16 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 78 998 12.8 5 |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| TOTAL | 53 | 3 11 3.7 0 | 213 2744 12.9 14 |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

Jerry Porter:

+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| Rushing | Receiving |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| 2000 oak | 12 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 1 6 6.0 0 |

| 2001 oak | 15 | 2 13 6.5 0 | 19 220 11.6 0 |

| 2002 oak | 16 | 4 6 1.5 0 | 51 688 13.5 9 |

| 2003 oak | 10 | 1 10 10.0 0 | 28 361 12.9 1 |

| 2004 oak | 16 | 1 -4 -4.0 0 | 64 998 15.6 9 |

| 2005 oak | 16 | 1 -8 -8.0 0 | 76 942 12.4 5 |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

| TOTAL | 85 | 9 17 1.9 0 | 239 3215 13.5 24 |

+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

Looks pretty similar to me.Jerry Porter signed a five year (three with voidable) deal with $10M in guarantees. I don't see why Branch can't get that.

That's a good point to start negotiations at least.

 

[PatsWillWin]

The Pats will face public pressure to re-sign Branch because they have the cap room and are viewed as one of the favorites in the AFC. The Pats can't afford to blow it due to a holdout.

The Pats brass (BB, Pioli, Kraft) will not hear a peep if they choose not to give in to Branch and he sits out. Aside from letting Brady or Seymour go the fans will trust in most any decision they make. Alot of us are'nt thrilled that Adam wasn't brought back but with all these guys have done for this franchise they are almost untouchable. Branch has no leverage, the team will go on without him and still be in the hunt. If he sits out he'll be the biggest loser out of the whole situation. I hope we let him walk if he wants huge $$. Let some idiot pay him Randal El $$ and move on. If you're going to break the bank for a wr he at least should be a stud. Branch isn't one.

Agreed. The public around here isn't going to give Belichick any pressure...and even if they DID, Belichick wouldn't give a damn. This is a guy who benched the franchise quarterback for a 6th round nobody back in 2001. Branch is making the rather serious mistake of thinking that he is Richard Seymour. Seymour pulled this last year, and even HE only got a slight bump in salary and the wink-wink "we'll take care of you in the off-season". Branch may be the Patriots best WR, but he's not nearly the player Seymour is and while Belichick might budge for Seymour (and Brady as well, if the situation arose), I truly believe they are literally the only exceptions to the very philosophy that will have Branch either paying out his contract, or sitting on his ### this season.

 

[KnowledgeReignsSupreme]

Agreed. The public around here isn't going to give Belichick any pressure...and even if they DID, Belichick wouldn't give a damn. This is a guy who benched the franchise quarterback for a 6th round nobody back in 2001.

IIRC, Mo Lewis had a lot more to do with that benching than BB.

 

[PatsWillWin]

Agreed. The public around here isn't going to give Belichick any pressure...and even if they DID, Belichick wouldn't give a damn. This is a guy who benched the franchise quarterback for a 6th round nobody back in 2001.

IIRC, Mo Lewis had a lot more to do with that benching than BB.

Well, you don't recall correctly.Bledsoe healed and was perfectly healthy far before the end of the season, and for the entire playoffs.

Obviously since Bledsoe wasn't "benched" by Mo Lewis, I'm talking about the remainder of the regular season and the playoffs, for which Bledsoe was perfectly healthy.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Agreed. The public around here isn't going to give Belichick any pressure...and even if they DID, Belichick wouldn't give a damn. This is a guy who benched the franchise quarterback for a 6th round nobody back in 2001.

IIRC, Mo Lewis had a lot more to do with that benching than BB.

Well, you don't recall correctly.Bledsoe healed and was perfectly healthy far before the end of the season, and for the entire playoffs.

Obviously since Bledsoe wasn't "benched" by Mo Lewis, I'm talking about the remainder of the regular season and the playoffs, for which Bledsoe was perfectly healthy.

By the time Bledsoe was healed Brady was far from a 6th round nobody.

 

[Tau837]

Since coming into the league, Branch has ranked 28th in receptions, 38th in receiving yards, and 46th in receiving TD in those 4 seasons

I'm sure his agent will use this as an argument, but honestly, so what? Is he compared only to those who entered the league in his class? No. He is compared to the collective pool of WRs in the league. And in comparison to that pool, you can use the fantasy rankings to see his relative worth: an average of about 46th best or so.

The numbers in the first part that you quoted were his rankings FOR ALL WR in those categories in the span from 2002-2005.

Well, Data Dominator says he is 29th in receptions, his best ranking of the receiving categories. That includes ranking ahead of Fitzgerald, Bennett, Roy Williams, Michael Clayton, Javon Walker, and Houshmanzadeh, to name some other receivers who have either produced for only a subset of that time or are tagged as having greater potential. Would the Pats rather have Branch than all of those guys? I doubt it. Like I said, this is his agent's argument. In reality, for most teams he would be a WR2, and thus will not be paid like a WR1.

 

[KnowledgeReignsSupreme]

Agreed. The public around here isn't going to give Belichick any pressure...and even if they DID, Belichick wouldn't give a damn. This is a guy who benched the franchise quarterback for a 6th round nobody back in 2001.

IIRC, Mo Lewis had a lot more to do with that benching than BB.

Well, you don't recall correctly.Bledsoe healed and was perfectly healthy far before the end of the season, and for the entire playoffs.

Obviously since Bledsoe wasn't "benched" by Mo Lewis, I'm talking about the remainder of the regular season and the playoffs, for which Bledsoe was perfectly healthy.

By the time Bledsoe was healed Brady was far from a 6th round nobody.

My point exactly.

 

[nerangers]

I still see the Patriots getting the deal done...they are sitting on $15 Million in cap space...The question is will Branch accept a reasonable offer. He wants #1 WR money, but #1 WR numbers are tough to put up on a Patriots team...It is scary to think that he just might play out the season and then test FA next year. I still see the Pats getting this done in the 5 Million dollar range per year...

Jerome Solomon of the Boston Globe writes that the possibility remains that Deion Branch may choose not to accept any offers from the Patriots and fullfill his rookie deal to become a free agent in 2007. Solomon reports that the Patriots have yet to offer Branch a contract with numbers high enough for him to play ball. Solomon writes that Branch will make a statement by not coming to training camp on time. If nothing is worked out, he will report in time to receive that automatic deposit of the first game check. (If he doesn't, he has until Week 10 to join the team and still be a free agent after the season.) For fans, at least, it seems the debate over what (or whether) the Patriots should pay Branch has turned into whether he is a legitimate No. 1 receiver.

 

[PatsWillWin]

Agreed. The public around here isn't going to give Belichick any pressure...and even if they DID, Belichick wouldn't give a damn. This is a guy who benched the franchise quarterback for a 6th round nobody back in 2001.

IIRC, Mo Lewis had a lot more to do with that benching than BB.

Well, you don't recall correctly.Bledsoe healed and was perfectly healthy far before the end of the season, and for the entire playoffs.

Obviously since Bledsoe wasn't "benched" by Mo Lewis, I'm talking about the remainder of the regular season and the playoffs, for which Bledsoe was perfectly healthy.

By the time Bledsoe was healed Brady was far from a 6th round nobody.

My point exactly.

Yeah he was a 6th round nobody who had gone 4-2. Bledsoe was still considered to be one of the top QB's in the game...if you think that starting Brady over Bledsoe was an obvious choice and that Belichick didn't get heat for benching who Kraft had made the face of the franchise, you're simply using revinionist history.This is not the point. It is only part of the point. The larger point here is that whoever says that Branch is more likely to be signed because of "pressure from the public" knows nothing about how the Patriots operate. Drew Bledsoe is just one piece of evidence to this fact, as is Damien Woody, Lawyer Milloy, Ty Law, Willie McGinest, David Givens, and oh yeah, some guy named Adam Vinatieri.

 

[Bob_Magaw]

if branch plays hardball with pats i think he is going to be an ex-pat...

in fairness to him, i'm not sure he couldn't have amassed much better stats in a system that emphasized him more & didn't spread it around so much (though he does seem to be dinged a lot)... to me this is a little reminiscent of the at times difficult westbrook negotiations (though that of course got done last year)... they stated that they didn't want to pay him feature RB money as he didn't get that kind of carries... yet he was clamoring for the ball & they refused to give him the carries!

there is not much doubt in my mind branch (if healthy) could EASILY get 1,000+ yards if he were focal point of passing offense... that seems to be pretty much precluded in NE... if they are unwilling to pay him what he thinks he could get in a system that made better use of his talents, i can't blame him for wanting to get paid what he finds commensurate with his talent...

the tradeoff is if he goes to team like SF he may be forgoing any more super bowls in the near future... he already has, what, three rings? a blockbuster contract to secure his financial future might be looking pretty attractive to him right about now... it may not have escaped his attention what happened to javon walker (though it eventually worked out for him getting traded to DEN & promptly getting his new contract)...

& i'm pretty sure chase is right in games you need to accumulate a "year" of NFL service for FA purposes... unless it changed, galloway played less than half a season i am pretty sure... that is last one i can remember that held out that long... i think keenan mccardell held out his last season in TB, but don't recall if it went the distance?

i also agree that chad jackson could be as good or better soon, though it might hurt in interim while he gets up to speed... shoot, ben watson is probably better than branch & they could almost start featuring him like SD does with gates, KC does with t-gon, etc... maybe they knew something when they drafted all those TE/H-back types in the latest draft...