Denver Broncos need to blow it up (1 Viewer)

[LordOpie]

Either admit the defensive scheme is a failure, re-visit it next off-season and play a scheme that will work with the personnel they have -or- call it a season, start the re-building now and keep working with the system Bates wants to run.

I would not recommend playing any Broncos on your FF team until some decisions are made.

For example, Tom Nalen, Pro-Bowl center is likely lost for the season. The back-up center was lost last weekend for the season due to head/concussion issues.

Either do the multiple TE sets and pound the ball with Henry while he's available to save the season -or- put in Young and see what he can do.

Of course, I'm extremely pessimistic about this year if Champ Bailey goes on IR. At that point, yes, time to rebuild and experiment.

IF Denver wants to make a go of it, bring back Al Wilson. Even if he can't play LB, at least make him an asst. LB coach or something. If for nothing else, he is a great leader and can help this team that obviously has no focus and can't tackle my dead grandmother.

This Bronco fan says: start the re-building now.

 

[Avery]

Apparently after week 5 is when fans loose their collective ####, want to blow up their teams and fire or cut anybody and everybody.

Noted.

 

[LordOpie]

well, I don't really want to fire anyone.

Mostly cuz who could do a better job than Shanny, Bates, et al.?

 

[Bears_Man2]

Maybe Al Wilson meant more to this team than anyone thought.

I don't think anything needs to be blown up.

 

[perry147]

well, I don't really want to fire anyone.

Mostly cuz who could do a better job than Shanny, Bates, et al.?

Cowher, Bill

 

[LordOpie]

well, I don't really want to fire anyone.

Mostly cuz who could do a better job than Shanny, Bates, et al.?

Cowher, Bill

I had forgotten about him.

 

[jonessed]

The middle of their D is soft and they have a young QB. Both can be fixed. It's not time to blow anything up.

 

[Sabertooth]

Either admit the defensive scheme is a failure, re-visit it next off-season and play a scheme that will work with the personnel they have -or- call it a season, start the re-building now and keep working with the system Bates wants to run.I would not recommend playing any Broncos on your FF team until some decisions are made.For example, Tom Nalen, Pro-Bowl center is likely lost for the season. The back-up center was lost last weekend for the season due to head/concussion issues.Either do the multiple TE sets and pound the ball with Henry while he's available to save the season -or- put in Young and see what he can df course, I'm extremely pessimistic about this year if Champ Bailey goes on IR. At that point, yes, time to rebuild and experiment.IF Denver wants to make a go of it, bring back Al Wilson. Even if he can't play LB, at least make him an asst. LB coach or something. If for nothing else, he is a great leader and can help this team that obviously has no focus and can't tackle my dead grandmother.This Bronco fan says: start the re-building now.

Jim Bates is an excellent DC. Players need to learn what they are supposed to be doing.

 

[redman]

Apparently after week 5 whatever the last week is is when fans loose their collective ####, want to blow up their teams and fire or cut anybody and everybody.

Noted.

Fixed.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Apparently after week 5 is when fans loose their collective ####, want to blow up their teams and fire or cut anybody and everybody.

Noted.

If you're a Viking fan you don't even have to wait 1 week.

 

[eom]

I think they should hire norv turner.

 

[LordOpie]

The middle of their D is soft and they have a young QB. Both can be fixed. It's not time to blow anything up.

Except that they have key players that recently went out for the season or soon will be out. Players that can't be replaced.

Jim Bates is an excellent DC. Players need to learn what they are supposed to be doing.

Not true at all. If a player can't grasp a system, then you release/trade/demote him -- like they did with their $30million signing of Gerrard Warren last year to released this year.Point is, as a DC, you have to know your players. If they can't do it and you don't have the personnel, then YOU change YOUR scheme. I understand they're doing that, but still...

 

[rascal]

This team has no heart, leadership, or mental toughness.

The defense has been awful but so has special teams and the offense.

On top of that Nalen is likely out for the year and Hamilton is already gone for the year. The offense just took a huge hit.

Look for Myers to move to center and Kuper to come in at either guard spot and Holland to take the other.

The front seven is probably the worst in their division and their LB's are awful.

 

[thesurfshop19]

Honestly, I just think this team needs time. They looked good on paper going into the season, but they're probably not a Super Bowl contender right now and we should temper our expectations as such.

Cutler has looked on-and-off, pretty much exactly what we should be seeing for a player with 10 career starts. The team's suffering key injuries all over the place and I think playing out the rest of the season to get Cutler some experience and the D more familiar with the scheme should be the themes.

Of course you play to win, and I'd love to see Denver make a playoff run. But the biggest thing is Cutler's development so the Broncos are a contender for a long time in the future.

 

[candymanvandyfan]

Tom Nalen out for this season, per Shannny presser. Seemingly no idea who is going to snap the ball.

 

[rascal]

Tom Nalen out for this season, per Shannny presser. Seemingly no idea who is going to snap the ball.

Either Eslinger or Myers. They have two weeks to figure it out. Hamilton is the usual backup center but he is also out for the year.IMO this is a pretty serious downgrade to the Broncos running game.

 

[Tau837]

Honestly, I just think this team needs time. They looked good on paper going into the season, but they're probably not a Super Bowl contender right now and we should temper our expectations as such.

Cutler has looked on-and-off, pretty much exactly what we should be seeing for a player with 10 career starts. The team's suffering key injuries all over the place and I think playing out the rest of the season to get Cutler some experience and the D more familiar with the scheme should be the themes.

Of course you play to win, and I'd love to see Denver make a playoff run. But the biggest thing is Cutler's development so the Broncos are a contender for a long time in the future.

Probably not, eh? I don't think there are many who need to temper expectations like that, since there aren't many who had such expectations in the first place...

 

[Jayrod]

My Brother-In-Law is a huge Bronco fan....he said they are in a semi-rebuilding mode, especially the defense.

He doesn't know if they'll go that route or not, but he felt like that was the thing to do at this point.

 

[KoolKat]

It's not looking good, this is going to be the worst year since Elway retired. Our defense is miserable, and our offense isn't living up to their potential. Now with Nalen out, the news just keeps getting worse.

 

[pinda]

My Brother-In-Law is a huge Bronco fan....he said they are in a semi-rebuilding mode, especially the defense.He doesn't know if they'll go that route or not, but he felt like that was the thing to do at this point.

What's your brother-n-law's take on the rest of the NFL? I'll be waiting for that analysis anxiously Just kidding around, a frustrated bronco fan here.Original Poster is kind of on the right track except for blowing up the whole team. Time to try some new pieces. What's scary is that they don't have the right personnel on the team to fix what is ailing them. Simeon Rice and Sam Adams are non-existent. If nothing else, play a lot of Jarvis Moss and Marcus Thomas and see what you have in them. If Nalen is out for the season, that's a huge blow as he's getting up there in age and might just decide to hang em up. Definitely a very disappointing start to the season, where we are 3 seconds and a timeout away from being 0-5.

 

[thesurfshop19]

Probably not, eh? I don't think there are many who need to temper expectations like that, since there aren't many who had such expectations in the first place...

Fair enough. It just seems like a lot of Broncos fans are freaking out. But if this team isn't a title contender, then what's the worry or rush? They didn't look good, but if they aren't going to win the Super Bowl the real goal should be getting Cutler experience and the D familiar in the scheme.

 

[LordOpie]

Original Poster is kind of on the right track except for blowing up the whole team. Time to try some new pieces. What's scary is that they don't have the right personnel on the team to fix what is ailing them. Simeon Rice and Sam Adams are non-existent. If nothing else, play a lot of Jarvis Moss and Marcus Thomas and see what you have in them.

That's exactly what I was trying to say.Experiment, see who the future is and is not, even if it means a sub-par year.One bright spot is that apparently, Champ Bailey's MRI came back as good news. Looks like he's questionable for the next game (bye this week).

 

[SSOG]

The front seven is probably the worst in their division and their LB's are awful.

Their LB's aren't awful. D.J. Williams and Ian Gold are both very good players. It's not like they've forgotten how to play, they just aren't very good in this scheme yet. I have hope that they'll improve. Like I said, I doubt they've forgotten how to play. Likewise, the DEs are pretty solid, too- Dumervil looks like a rising star, Rice can still rush the passer, and Jarvis Moss was a 1st rounder for a reason. They just need some bulk at DT and some experience in the scheme.

One bright spot is that apparently, Champ Bailey's MRI came back as good news. Looks like he's questionable for the next game (bye this week).

If there's a question whether Bailey can play, he's probably going to play. His recovery rate is absurd.

 

[pinda]

The front seven is probably the worst in their division and their LB's are awful.

Their LB's aren't awful. D.J. Williams and Ian Gold are both very good players. It's not like they've forgotten how to play, they just aren't very good in this scheme yet. I have hope that they'll improve. Like I said, I doubt they've forgotten how to play. Likewise, the DEs are pretty solid, too- Dumervil looks like a rising star, Rice can still rush the passer, and Jarvis Moss was a 1st rounder for a reason. They just need some bulk at DT and some experience in the scheme.

One bright spot is that apparently, Champ Bailey's MRI came back as good news. Looks like he's questionable for the next game (bye this week).

If there's a question whether Bailey can play, he's probably going to play. His recovery rate is absurd.

ssog, with all due respect of being a fellow Broncoite, I don't know how you say our LBs are ok. The DJ Williams experiment is a complete disaster. Gold is playing his worst football in his career at WLB. I think ideally moving forward we put DJ back where he belongs on the weak side. The position he was a stud at before Gold came back from Tampa. Find ourselves a solid MLB, you can get them in the 2nd round or even see what the asking price is on Vilma in the offseason. Sign r draft a SLB.As for the pass rush, agreed Dumervil is a rising star, I don't see what you see with Rice. He's usually a second too late, maybe that will change as he gets healthier, but I've noticed him as a non-factor.

 

[Wilbur Wood]

I did not like at all the limited dose of Sel Young that I saw yesterday.

When Henry goes, the Denver RB situation will be weak and will likely be a rotation. Not because Shanny favors it, but because they will have noone capable of carrying the load.

 

[SSOG]

ssog, with all due respect of being a fellow Broncoite, I don't know how you say our LBs are ok. The DJ Williams experiment is a complete disaster. Gold is playing his worst football in his career at WLB. I think ideally moving forward we put DJ back where he belongs on the weak side. The position he was a stud at before Gold came back from Tampa. Find ourselves a solid MLB, you can get them in the 2nd round or even see what the asking price is on Vilma in the offseason. Sign r draft a SLB.As for the pass rush, agreed Dumervil is a rising star, I don't see what you see with Rice. He's usually a second too late, maybe that will change as he gets healthier, but I've noticed him as a non-factor.

I say that the LBs are okay because Williams and Gold are both very talented players who have played at a very high level for their entire careers until now. They're playing terrible right now, which means that either they're not very good, or they're struggling within the scheme. I think it's HIGHLY unlikely that Gold/Williams aren't any good anymore, so I think their struggles are almost exclusively scheme-related. As a result, I think the LBs are okay. I don't think they need to be "fixed" (although we do desperately need a quality SLB). The scheme has a history of success, and once Denver's LBs get better within it (and once Denver gets the personnel at DT to let their LBs play within the scheme), I think Denver's LBs will be just fine. As I said, I doubt that Gold and Williams forgot how to play.I also think it's too early to declare the D.J. Williams experiment a failure. He's playing a completely different position, one that he's never played in his career, and he doesn't have the personnel in front of him that the scheme requires. I don't think it's unreasonable to give him more than 5 games before declaring that he's not going to make it. If Denver's sticking with this scheme, I want Williams in the middle, since he's our most talented LB and the MLB is the playmaker in the Bates defense.

I did not like at all the limited dose of Sel Young that I saw yesterday.

Yesterday's probably the worst possible sample size to use when evaluating Denver's running game. I hate to sound like a broken record here, but Denver struggles running against the 3-4. Any results put up against a 3-4 defense are NOT typical of the type of performance you're going to see against a 4-3.

 

[Courtjester]

I guess maybe I am a "glass half full" kind of person, but anyone who believed this was a Super Bowl team with all the talent that is in the AFC was fooling themselves.

I honestly believed we were a Wildcard team and who knows, maybe ultimately that is where we will end up.

The Nalen loss is huge, but Cutler has looked very sharp in his throws (with the exception of the duck that hung up in the wind yesterday). I know it is easy to say would've and could've, but if Marshall doesn't fumble that ball there at the 9 and Denver scores, we have a 14-7 game and I think we have a game. But when he fumbled and then SD marches down the field again, the team gave up--they really did. Denver fans are spoiled--we expect to win, but Elway had a ton of growing pains in his first year and those Denver teams struggled.

We have some good pieces in place, but I frankly would rather have the Coyer "bend but don't break" defense that cost Denver so many games vs what is going on right now.

Like I posted in the game thread yesterday, in all my years as a Denver fan, I have never seen that stadium clear out so early and so completely. Maybe the NFL strike games that were played there were that few fans in the stands, but that had to send a strong message.

 

[pinda]

ssog, i agree that 5 games is not enough, but this guy never played MLB ever period. Not in pop warner, not in high school, not in college and not in Denver. So how do they expect that to work. He was a beast on the weakside his rookie year and I didn't like the move to SLB, especially since he's a playmaker, but was still acceptable.

as for Gold, i agree it's not like he forgot to play, but age could have caught up with him. he's not the first player we'd see fall within one year.

 

[rascal]

The front seven is probably the worst in their division and their LB's are awful.

Their LB's aren't awful. D.J. Williams and Ian Gold are both very good players. It's not like they've forgotten how to play, they just aren't very good in this scheme yet. I have hope that they'll improve. Like I said, I doubt they've forgotten how to play. Likewise, the DEs are pretty solid, too- Dumervil looks like a rising star, Rice can still rush the passer, and Jarvis Moss was a 1st rounder for a reason. They just need some bulk at DT and some experience in the scheme.

DJ is playing out of position. His entire football career had been at WLB, and then we move him to SLB, and then to MLB. The kid has no clue what to do and if you watch him during a game he is obviously not a MLB.Gold is a weak WLB. The guy can't hold is own at the point to save his life and every year he gets worn down. I have wished for his release for years. It would have been this past offseason but the Wilson situation prevented that.Webster takes the worst angles of any LB I have ever seen. It became apparent in last years SF game, and this year has only continued to solidify that point.The fact that they had targeted Timmons who is a WLB should be a clue as to how poor they think of Gold. And Webster is the third option at SLB after injuries to his predecessors during the offseason.So yes their LB's are awful.Rice hasn't recovered from his injury and it's doubtful he ever will. Dumervil is a rising young star who I like along with Thomas who has played very well from what I have seen. Crowder looks promising but Moss needs to get stronger.I wish they would start Crowder and Dumervil at the ends, with Moss and Engelberger substituting in.Adams has been awful and it's apparent why the piss poor bengals let him go. Burton and Gordon are getting over matched at the point, but they are young so hopefully they can continue to improve.Any time your rush defense is giving up an average of 184 YPG, your front seven is AWFUL.

 

[ffldrew]

It's time for Shanny to be removed as GM - his record is abysmal in the last few years. When you find yourself digging yourself a hole, the first thing you do is stop digging. This continuous revolving door in the d line has been a joke. Special teams are a joke. His draft picks have been poor at best. Free agent choices have been awful.

He may be able to call a game still- although the results in the red zone may suggest otherwise. But I'm willing to let him continue in that capacity, hopefully by focusing on that aspect of the team he can get better.

As for the LB's - the best linebacker in Colorado doesn't even play for the Bronco's.

 

[rascal]

It's time for Shanny to be removed as GM - his record his abysmal in the last few years. When you find yourself digging yourself a hole, the first thing you do is stop digging. This continuous revolving door in the d line has been a joke. Special teams are a joke. His draft picks have been poor at best. Free agent choices have been awful.He may be able to call a game still- although the results in the red zone may suggest otherwise. But I'm willing to let him continue in that capacity, hopefully by focusing on that aspect of the team he can get better. As for the LB's - the best linebacker in Colorado doesn't even play for the Bronco's.

He isn't the GM. hence the reason the drafts have been better lately.And unfortunately I agree about your last sentence.

 

[ffldrew]

He may not be GM in name - but he has all final decisions on player/draft/personnel moves.

Hopefully Jordon is available for the Broncos next year.

 

[SSOG]

ssog, i agree that 5 games is not enough, but this guy never played MLB ever period. Not in pop warner, not in high school, not in college and not in Denver. So how do they expect that to work.

Prior to his junior year in college, John Lynch had not only never played safety, he'd never played DEFENSE. At one point in time, Hines Ward had never played receiver. D.J. Williams is hardly the first player in the history of football to make a position switch, and the switch from WLB to MLB is easier than many other transitions.

He was a beast on the weakside his rookie year and I didn't like the move to SLB, especially since he's a playmaker, but was still acceptable.

as for Gold, i agree it's not like he forgot to play, but age could have caught up with him. he's not the first player we'd see fall within one year.

Actually, this is one of the biggest misconceptions about Williams. He never played SLB, Gold did. Denver said before the season that they'd play Williams at SLB, but they never went through with it- regardless, everyone saw Williams numbers decline and assumed it was because of the "position switch". In reality, Williams declined because he was no longer on the field in the nickel package. Here's an article backing it up. Notice the following quote from D.J. Williams: "Everybody thought I did, but I never swapped". Notice the following quote from Larry Coyer: "We didn't really change anything but wording, that's all". Notice the following quote from Ian Gold: "People take things and run with it," Gold said. "It's kind of the way everybody sees that 'will' linebacker spot as the coveted spot to be at because you get a lot of the action, a lot of the blitzing and things of that nature and the strong-side spot is not as coveted because you've got a lot of coverage and not as much in the run action as far as the scheme of the defense. But last year, I proved that a player in the strong-side position can still be a part of the defense - and an integral part."Also, I HIGHLY doubt that father time is catching up with Ian Gold at 29 years old...

It's time for Shanny to be removed as GM - his record his abysmal in the last few years. When you find yourself digging yourself a hole, the first thing you do is stop digging. This continuous revolving door in the d line has been a joke. Special teams are a joke. His draft picks have been poor at best. Free agent choices have been awful.

He may be able to call a game still- although the results in the red zone may suggest otherwise. But I'm willing to let him continue in that capacity, hopefully by focusing on that aspect of the team he can get better.

As for the LB's - the best linebacker in Colorado doesn't even play for the Bronco's.

He isn't the GM. hence the reason the drafts have been better lately.

Regardless of the titles, Shanahan's role is the same that it's always been.Also, iirc, since Elway retired, only Pitt/Indy/NE/Philly have more wins. That seems like Denver's been a pretty talented team during that span, which suggests to me that the front office is working just fine. While he's everyone's favorite whipping boy, I think Shanahan (or the Shanahan/Sundquist combo, or whatever you want to call it) is one of the top-10 GMs in the league. Maybe not top-5 (I'd go with Pioli, Polian, and Newsome as the top 3, A.J. Smith in the top 5 if we're talking strictly talent evaluation and we ignore his colossal ego and the resulting Norv Turner, and then Shanahan right in the middle of the next tier)... but top 10. Everyone focuses on the draft, but a GM's job is acquiring talent through any means necessary, and Denver has been a very talented team for the past decade, so somebody must be doing something right.

 

[AussieOyOyOy]

I think this talk is very premature. As has been discussed earlier in the thread, it is too early to completely write the defense off. Certainly it would be preferred to be further along at this point with the scheme changes, but still, we're talking about five games. There's viable talent throughout the unit, including possibly the best defensive player in the league. Sometimes things are gradual, and sometimes a switch flips. It's early enough that if the defense steadily improves, the season is not lost. And if the switch flips, watch out.

The offense is fine. The line and backs have been performing at a high level, as they have for many years. Obviously the Nalen injury hurts, but you're not blowing up a team because Tom Nalen gets hurt. Walker will be returning soon, and I think even the pessimists are at least encouraged by Marshall. Cutler is where he should be. He looks brilliant on some plays and well, whatever the polar opposite of brilliant is, on other players. But that's how it works. It's very rare that a QB is a complete and consistent player this early in the game. Denver fans, of all people, should know that.

Denver is not playing well right now, by any stretch of the imagination. But I would not be surprised at all by a late-season surge.