Detroit WR situation (1 Viewer)

[Jason Wood]

The Lions situation is a fascinating one. I think, all things being equal, Roy Williams is going to flourish regardless of who lines up alongside him. But beyond that, I would be no more surprised if Scottie Vines was 2nd in receptions than I would if Mike Williams or Charles Rogers can in as WR2.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

pretty sure this is a honda

DET WR pecking order:

RoyWill

Bradford

Chuck/BMW survivor

Vines

Furrey

IIRC Glenn Martinez was a hustler that earned some time last year not so unlike Vines. I believe he's still with them though not sure where he is on this pecking order, probably near the bottom but I wouldn't be surprised to see a hustler make the team over a guy with a poor work ethic regardless of talent

He's a special teamer/ practie sqaud kinda guy

 

[Bri]

pretty sure this is a honda

DET WR pecking order:

RoyWill

Bradford

Chuck/BMW survivor

Vines

Furrey

IIRC Glenn Martinez was a hustler that earned some time last year not so unlike Vines. I believe he's still with them though not sure where he is on this pecking order, probably near the bottom but I wouldn't be surprised to see a hustler make the team over a guy with a poor work ethic regardless of talent

He's a special teamer/ practie sqaud kinda guy

yeah you're right but one thing many folks fail to realize is when ya get down to 4th-6th WR they must contribute on special teams. Suppose(I don't know) Mike Williams is a horrible tackler and can't catch a punt "if his life depended on it". It IS possible Martinez could then beat him out for the 6th spot(if they kept that many).Major analogy just to prove a point, don't jump on anything please. A fine example of this is Osgood in SD.

 

[Couch Potato]

Staff ranking update (past 7-days): Bradford ranked WR75 overall, ranked in top 60 by 2 staff. M Williams ranked WR59 overall, ranked by 6 staff. (6/8 EDIT to correct ranking update)

The latest blurb from KFFL....

Lions | Team not thinking Williams will contribute soon

Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:49:51 -0700

Adam Schefter, of the NFL Network, reports the Detroit Lions have made the decision that, until WR Mike Williams demonstrates a noticeable change in his behavior, and few in the organization are expecting anything to be any different any time soon, he will not be contributing to the franchise. Williams is currently running with the third-string offense. The team even has looked into the cost of ridding itself of Williams, but realized it cannot. If the Lions were to cut or trade Williams, they would be hit with a whopping $12 million salary cap charge. Unless Williams changes his attitude, his name will be expected to pop up often on the inactive list this season. The Lions have options at wide receiver, but right now, Mike Williams is not one of them.

 

[Spartans Rule]

Staff ranking update: Still no one ranking Bradford. Staff now ranking M Williams WR60.

The latest blurb from KFFL....

Lions | Team not thinking Williams will contribute soon

Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:49:51 -0700

Adam Schefter, of the NFL Network, reports the Detroit Lions have made the decision that, until WR Mike Williams demonstrates a noticeable change in his behavior, and few in the organization are expecting anything to be any different any time soon, he will not be contributing to the franchise. Williams is currently running with the third-string offense. The team even has looked into the cost of ridding itself of Williams, but realized it cannot. If the Lions were to cut or trade Williams, they would be hit with a whopping $12 million salary cap charge. Unless Williams changes his attitude, his name will be expected to pop up often on the inactive list this season. The Lions have options at wide receiver, but right now, Mike Williams is not one of them.

Pretty interesting. Obviously much can change between now and the start of the season, and there's no guarantee this piece of news is correct, but if so it's fairly significant. Heard some negative things about Williams and Rogers, but this is the first time that it's just been flat out stated that one of them isn't even in the mix.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

Mike Will was already sent home once during the OTA, tons of speculation that it was becuase he wasn't working hard in practice.

 

[Payne]

And Rogers is rumored to be working hard.

Maybe I should keep my mouth shut and draft him in the last rounds?

Although:

The No. 1 offense has Jones at running back, Jon Kitna at quarterback and Roy Williams and free-agent acquisition Corey Bradford at wide receiver. Another free-agent pickup, Mike Furrey, is the first receiver who comes in at the No. 3 slot position.

In the base two-receiver offense, Furrey and Glenn Martinez are the backups with Charles Rogers and Eddie Drummond on the No. 3 unit. Two other wide receivers, Mike Williams and Scottie Vines, didn't participate because of minor injuries; it's unknown where they would fit in the rotation.

Arlen Harris, a free agent who played for three years under Martz with the St. Louis Rams, is the backup running back to Jones, especially when the team goes to spread formations.

Artose Pinner, who was Jones' backup last year, appears to have fallen to No. 4 on the depth chart, behind rookie Brian Calhoun, a third-round draft pick. During one point in the drills, Pinner was in once during a stretch of 19 plays.

Fullback Cory Schlesinger's role in the offense will be greatly diminished -- he'll be giving up time to Harris and Shawn Bryson -- but he'll still be a factor in the offense because of the need for his blocking ability in certain situations.

 

[Couch Potato]

This from KFFL too...

Lions | M. Williams disciplined for tardiness

Thu, 8 Jun 2006 08:02:42 -0700

Tom Kowalski, of MLive.com, reports Detroit Lions WR Mike Williams (hamstring) was sent home early from last week's minicamp because he missed a treatment for his sore hamstring and was then late for a meeting. Team president Matt Millen was responsible for sending Williams home Thursday, June 1.

 

[Couch Potato]

Staff ranking update: Still no one ranking Bradford. Staff now ranking M Williams WR60.

The latest blurb from KFFL....

Lions | Team not thinking Williams will contribute soon

Wed, 7 Jun 2006 19:49:51 -0700

Adam Schefter, of the NFL Network, reports the Detroit Lions have made the decision that, until WR Mike Williams demonstrates a noticeable change in his behavior, and few in the organization are expecting anything to be any different any time soon, he will not be contributing to the franchise. Williams is currently running with the third-string offense. The team even has looked into the cost of ridding itself of Williams, but realized it cannot. If the Lions were to cut or trade Williams, they would be hit with a whopping $12 million salary cap charge. Unless Williams changes his attitude, his name will be expected to pop up often on the inactive list this season. The Lions have options at wide receiver, but right now, Mike Williams is not one of them.

Here's the actual article the above KFFL writeup came from, for anyone interested:NFL.com

Lions' Williams, Jags' Jones on opposite routes

By Adam Schefter

Special to NFL.com

(June 7, 2006) -- For now, the Lions are as down on former first-round draft pick Mike Williams as their fans have been on the franchise in recent seasons.

Williams is running with Detroit's third group of wide receivers -- and there are no indications he is going to be moving up the Detroit depth chart anytime soon, even though the receiver was back at practice today.

If Mike Williams really wants to be with Detroit, he hasn't been acting like it.

The Lions have made the decision that, until Williams demonstrates a noticeable change in his behavior -- and few in the organization are expecting anything to be any different any time soon -- he will not be contributing to the franchise.

While the rest of the Lions franchise has taken to new head coach Rod Marinelli's demanding methods, Williams has not. Lions officials believe Williams has not worked hard, has not been accountable, has not carried himself the way a first-round pick or any NFL player should.

The team even has looked into the cost of ridding itself of Williams, but realized it cannot. If the Lions were to cut or trade Williams, they would be hit with a whopping $12 million salary-cap charge.

This means the Lions are stuck with Williams, who has been nursing a strained hamstring for the past two months. These types of struggles are nothing new for Williams in Detroit. Last year, he was fined for being overweight and late to meetings.

Unless Williams changes his attitude, his name will be expected to pop up often on the inactive list this season. It's rather ironic, too. For one year, after he left USC, Williams was the man without a team. Now that he has a team, the team is willing to move forward without him.

While Williams seemingly has been one of the lone Lions dissenters to the new regime, his counterparts Roy Williams and Eddie Drummond have wowed the organization. Roy Williams has grasped the Lions offense quickly, and has demonstrated the speed and strength that has left Detroit's new coaches in awe. Drummond also has impressed his coaches enough to take over some of Mike Williams' playing time.

The Lions have options at receiver. But right now, Mike Williams is not one.

 

[perry147]

I wish they would trade him but his salary is to high for that to happen.

 

[Couch Potato]

David's latest projections:

Roy Williams 75-1061-8 154.5

Corey Bradford 41-558-4 80.2 (WR57)

Mike Williams 25-310-3 49.0

Scott Vines 18-203-1 26.7

Charles Rogers 12-156-1 22.0

That's looking better. David's keeping up with his reading.

Eventually we'll get there by season's end --

55/800/6 : JOIN THE COREY BRADFORD REVOLUTION

 

[BoltzNBrew]

Just took a flyer on Bradford in the 19th round. It will be interesting to see how this whole situation plays out.

 

[Professor]

Just took a flyer on Bradford in the 19th round. It will be interesting to see how this whole situation plays out.

*******!

 

[BoltzNBrew]

Just took a flyer on Bradford in the 19th round.  It will be interesting to see how this whole situation plays out.

*******!

Were you going to take him? Wasn't that the theme of the draft anyway?

 

[2 humps and a grunt]

As a Packer fan I just don't understand the love for Bradford. Great veteran to have on the team and a great deep threat that will score a few times a year. Nice guy. To many FF teams will draft him and proclaim him as a decent fill in. If your team wins, it won't be because Cory Bradford is on your team, it will be in spite of it.

 

[Sinrman]

Here's what kills me -- why aren't Williams, Rogers, and BMW getting together during the offseason and KILLING themselves to learn the offense better, workout, etc.? Williams is the most gifted, and has done well so far. The other two are just showing no heart or initiative at all. Which is why I don't see either on this team next year unless something drastic happens...

 

[Lombardi's Orphan Son]

Here's what kills me -- why aren't Williams, Rogers, and BMW getting together during the offseason and KILLING themselves to learn the offense better, workout, etc.? Williams is the most gifted, and has done well so far. The other two are just showing no heart or initiative at all. Which is why I don't see either on this team next year unless something drastic happens...

reports show Rogers showing initiative. i don't know about heart. i remember a couple of years ago where Rogers was the talk of the town and ff rankings. i've seen him produce (not alot for sure) but you have to say he's got way more upside than Bradford.if Rogers has really turned it around and taking his life seriously, i don't think you are going to be able to keep him off the field. with Roy and Rogers, i see Bruce and Holt all over ... with Roy and Bradford, hmmm. i think of the Texans.

my flyer will be on Rogers.

-orphan

 

[aposulli]

Here's what kills me -- why aren't Williams, Rogers, and BMW getting together during the offseason and KILLING themselves to learn the offense better, workout, etc.?  Williams is the most gifted, and has done well so far.  The other two are just showing no heart or initiative at all.  Which is why I don't see either on this team next year unless something drastic happens...

reports show Rogers showing initiative. i don't know about heart. i remember a couple of years ago where Rogers was the talk of the town and ff rankings. i've seen him produce (not alot for sure) but you have to say he's got way more upside than Bradford.if Rogers has really turned it around and taking his life seriously, i don't think you are going to be able to keep him off the field. with Roy and Rogers, i see Bruce and Holt all over ... with Roy and Bradford, hmmm. i think of the Texans.

my flyer will be on Rogers.

-orphan

I think we can all agree that Williams, Williams and Rogers all have more upside than Bradford.But Williams and Rogers havebeen/are both in the doghouse in Detroit.

This season it shouldn't be surprising to see Det spread the ball around, and I wouldnt' be completely shocked if Scotty Vines ended up as the #2 or #3 WR on the team in fantasy points.

But the point is, Bradford and Vines are btoh great values considering where they are being drafted in leagues.

Whoever says that people are in trouble for relying on either of those two.... well yes, you probably are. But as a late round flyer in a 16+ team league, these aren't bad guys to have. (along with Williams and Rogers)

 

[Bri]

Here's what kills me -- why aren't Williams, Rogers, and BMW getting together during the offseason and KILLING themselves to learn the offense better, workout, etc.?  Williams is the most gifted, and has done well so far.  The other two are just showing no heart or initiative at all.  Which is why I don't see either on this team next year unless something drastic happens...

reports show Rogers showing initiative. i don't know about heart. i remember a couple of years ago where Rogers was the talk of the town and ff rankings. i've seen him produce (not alot for sure) but you have to say he's got way more upside than Bradford.if Rogers has really turned it around and taking his life seriously, i don't think you are going to be able to keep him off the field. with Roy and Rogers, i see Bruce and Holt all over ... with Roy and Bradford, hmmm. i think of the Texans.

my flyer will be on Rogers.

-orphan

I think we can all agree that Williams, Williams and Rogers all have more upside than Bradford.But Williams and Rogers havebeen/are both in the doghouse in Detroit.

This season it shouldn't be surprising to see Det spread the ball around, and I wouldnt' be completely shocked if Scotty Vines ended up as the #2 or #3 WR on the team in fantasy points.

But the point is, Bradford and Vines are btoh great values considering where they are being drafted in leagues.

Whoever says that people are in trouble for relying on either of those two.... well yes, you probably are. But as a late round flyer in a 16+ team league, these aren't bad guys to have. (along with Williams and Rogers)

I disagree unless it's survivor. While I agree with most of your post, they'd be a headache and you'd never know when Martz+Marinelli want to see if Mike or Chuck can get it done. Bradford MIGHT be the better(for FF) as he often catches deep balls and two of them and you're OK but....what a headache they'd be. I don't care if it's Thomas Jones+Cedric Benson or these WRs there's no value in drafting a headache IMO.

 

[thecardiackid]

Here's what kills me -- why aren't Williams, Rogers, and BMW getting together during the offseason and KILLING themselves to learn the offense better, workout, etc.?  Williams is the most gifted, and has done well so far.  The other two are just showing no heart or initiative at all.  Which is why I don't see either on this team next year unless something drastic happens...

reports show Rogers showing initiative. i don't know about heart. i remember a couple of years ago where Rogers was the talk of the town and ff rankings. i've seen him produce (not alot for sure) but you have to say he's got way more upside than Bradford.if Rogers has really turned it around and taking his life seriously, i don't think you are going to be able to keep him off the field. with Roy and Rogers, i see Bruce and Holt all over ... with Roy and Bradford, hmmm. i think of the Texans.

my flyer will be on Rogers.

-orphan

I think we can all agree that Williams, Williams and Rogers all have more upside than Bradford.But Williams and Rogers havebeen/are both in the doghouse in Detroit.

This season it shouldn't be surprising to see Det spread the ball around, and I wouldnt' be completely shocked if Scotty Vines ended up as the #2 or #3 WR on the team in fantasy points.

But the point is, Bradford and Vines are btoh great values considering where they are being drafted in leagues.

Whoever says that people are in trouble for relying on either of those two.... well yes, you probably are. But as a late round flyer in a 16+ team league, these aren't bad guys to have. (along with Williams and Rogers)

I disagree unless it's survivor. While I agree with most of your post, they'd be a headache and you'd never know when Martz+Marinelli want to see if Mike or Chuck can get it done. Bradford MIGHT be the better(for FF) as he often catches deep balls and two of them and you're OK but....what a headache they'd be. I don't care if it's Thomas Jones+Cedric Benson or these WRs there's no value in drafting a headache IMO.

Regardless of who ends up as the 2/3 (and it sounds like there are a lot of differing opinions), you can't argue that finding and getting the #3 wr in Mad Mike's offense isn't worth a late round flyer. Which really is the point of the post you're disagreeing with here. Try telling that to the guys who were carried through mid-sesaon last year by K Curtis (myself included) . He was a 14th rounder that paid off, at least for me.Do RBBC and WRBC situations suck, and often cause owners headaches? Yes. But Martz *usually* settles on 3 guys and sticks w/ them barring injury. (rotating in a guy like Shawn McDonald when needed) And ala Curtis last year, the #3 guy's upside is solid #2 numbers (often better than some team's #1 wrs production wise). Who will the trio end up being this season? That's the question here.

But, the FF owners who get/guess it right could laugh all the way to the playoffs IF Kitna doesn't fall on his face. Even if he does, Martz's system has a way of getting decent enough production out of his backup QBs anyway (Bulger (for KW), J Martin, Fitzpatrick, etc...) What's the worst thing that could happen IF you happen to guess wrong here? You drop the scrub and grab someone off the wire in a better situation and it costs you $2 for the gamble.

 

[Bri]

cardiac, I'm not a fan of any #3 WR never mind sharing that position.

 

[thecardiackid]

cardiac, I'm not a fan of any #3 WR never mind sharing that position.

Not even Stokley in 04??? I just think there could be some potential value here as this situation settles itself and there's a clear 2/3 tandem. I seriously doubt Martz will rotate 5 guys in @ WR 2/3. I'm not promoting stashing the #3 from SF or TB on your roster, but (IMO) I'd rather have Martz's #3 (consistent guy - not a WRBC rotation guy) than several #2's on bad passing teams. If for nothing else than the handcuff / upside value in case of injury to 1/2.

I'd bet most guys are carrying 5/6 wrs throughout the season - and consistently starting 2/3 of them pending matchups, injuries (to qbs, etc.), and byes. Even ocassionally dropping the "last guy" and adding FAs when some undrafted guy goes off. I'll also bet that most owners have a couple wrs that never crack their starting lineup at any point during the season. (my experience anyway).

I'm just saying, there's likely more potential value (and actual decent FF starting possibility) w/ the #3 guy in a prolific passing offense (Martz, IND, CIN, etc.)compared to avg. #2 WRs like K Colbert, Greg Lewis, Roddy White last year. If for nothing else than the upside when there's injury. So, unless you're drafting WR heavy in the mid-late rounds (9-12) and neglecting starting D/K/ or QB/TE2, you'll be looking to grab a couple wr's late (12+)

Granted this opinion of mine may be biased by the fact that my league(s) are 14 teams, so the talent level is generally thinner late in my draft (vs. 10/12 teamers). If I'm gambling on risk/reward, this is the place to do it. Where I'm not worried about hurting my "starting" team, either way it works out, this is the type of scenario I'll target and take a (calculated) shot. Nice upside w/ little risk since the "other guy" I'm passing on @ my WR 5/6 wasn't likely going to see the field anyway. Everyone's got their theories - I guess this is just one of mine.

 

[The Man Who Met Andy Griffith]

But Martz *usually* settles on 3 guys and sticks w/ them barring injury.

Martz *usually* has Torry Holt and Isaac Bruce on his team, and the #3 has ranged from Curtis to McDonald to Az Hakim to Proehl, depending on the year and situation.

 

[Bri]

cardiac, what have Martz's 3s done in the past?

well here:

Hakim 734 yards 4 TDs in 2000

Proehl 563 yards 5 TDs

Proehl 466 yards 4 TDs

Looker 495 yards 3 TDs

McDonald 494 yards 3 TDs

Curtis 801 yards 6 TDs (Bruce missed 5 games probably not a good comparison)

What's the average here? 500? 4 TDs? Now you want me to draft one of two guys that will share that?

 

[Cookiemonster]

Listen to you guys bicker about a 14th round WR. If you get a WR in the 14th, he'll only be a fill-in for an injured 3rd & 4th WR anyways. And K.Curtis worked out great for me last year when T.O., Horn and A.Johnson were out (as well as B.Engram). These guys can come in handy, so take it for what its worth... a #40-60 fill-in. If you don't like him, get someone else or go argue on CBS.

 

[Bri]

or go argue on CBS.