Deuce McAllister Suspension? (1 Viewer)

[The_Fonz]

After the bye NO faces ATL, KC and GB. They are 23,32nd and 25th against the run. I would love to be able to play or trade him based on these facts but I have heard NOTHING about the water pill extravaganza.

 

[brednbuddah]

no news is good news...

 

[shims3]

When are they supposed to rule on this?

 

[Ridgelake]

I think it was Jay Glazer at Fox who said the appeal for him and 2 -3 other guys will be held in Mid- November. My guess is that he plays in Week 10, then gets suspended for 4.

 

[blend]

i thought I saw a blurb saying they wouldnt' rule on it until Mid-Nov???

Found it.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/8722670...Plaxico-benched

from the article:

The Saints players' appeal, in which they have decided to band together and appeal as one, is set for the middle of November.

 

[David Yudkin]

IIRC, appeals are scheduled to be heard in mid-November.

 

[Haberdasher]

If he gets suspended, it's like others ^^ have said; week 11. Stecker and/or Thomas should make a great start vs KC. Bush probably comes back week 12.

 

[The_Fonz]

Thanks for the replies everyone. Deuce against KC would be so nice! He looks damn good this year so far.

 

[Jello_Biafra]

Any possibility Deuce can beat this?

 

[Tattoo Bill]

Any possibility Deuce can beat this?

No.

 

[Jello_Biafra]

Any possibility Deuce can beat this?

No.

Any other opinions?

 

[-baller]

Any possibility Deuce can beat this?

No.

Any other opinions?

No.

 

[Anon]

Coach Sean Payton said on Sirius Radio Wednesday that he's optimistic Deuce McAllister, Will Smith and Charles Grant will have their potential four-game suspensions for violating the steroids policy overturned.

Payton doesn't believe it's a slam dunk that the players will be cleared, but said "I think there are some specific details that possibly can help these guys." Still, the league's stance is usually that players are responsible for what goes into their bodies. The appeals are scheduled for mid-November.

Note: the above reference was from profootballtalk.com.

Also, i read some interesting discussions on saintsreport.com. A lot of it speculation, but basically,

If it was Starcaps, and samples test positive for Bumetanide.

If Deuce and/or the other Saints had the NFL test Starcaps and they were told they were ok to use.

Then, maybe the suspensions would be overturned.

Of course the other possibility is getting the Lawyers, the NFL, NFLPA, and starcaps manufacturer all embroiled in enough lawsuits that it takes forever for the suspensions to be served.

No idea how this will turn out.

 

[3C's]

The fact that Starcaps pulled their #### off the shelves has to help the players a bit. (actually stopped shipping, but what is still on shelves can be sold)

Another tidbit: a study published in the November/December 2007 issue of the Journal of Analytical Toxicology found traces of Bumetanide in urine tests of people who took StarCaps.

These were off the street people, not the players.

And: Several experts interviewed by the AP have said they found it odd that NFL players would choose to use Bumetanide because it is so easy to detect in drug tests

So, regular people were found to have traces of the banned substance from taking the pills. The banned substance is easily detectable. McCallister had the pills tested before he started taking them and they came up clean.

Sounds like a slam dunk for the player(s).

Of course in the wacky world that is the NFL he's sure to lose an appeal.

 

[Grid71]

The fact that Starcaps pulled their #### off the shelves has to help the players a bit. (actually stopped shipping, but what is still on shelves can be sold)

Another tidbit: a study published in the November/December 2007 issue of the Journal of Analytical Toxicology found traces of Bumetanide in urine tests of people who took StarCaps.

These were off the street people, not the players.

And: Several experts interviewed by the AP have said they found it odd that NFL players would choose to use Bumetanide because it is so easy to detect in drug tests

So, regular people were found to have traces of the banned substance from taking the pills. The banned substance is easily detectable. McCallister had the pills tested before he started taking them and they came up clean.

Sounds like a slam dunk for the player(s).

Of course in the wacky world that is the NFL he's sure to lose an appeal.

If this is documented, then I don't see how the NFL can suspend McAllister. The blame would be on the institution that approved the starcaps or the manufacturer if they changed the cocktail. Either of these situations could get messy with lawsuits.

 

[-baller]

not necessarily.

I'm not a lawyer, I'm not any kind of nfl insider, so this is all just half assed guessing, but it sounds like the nfl puts out a list of approved stuff you can take, and anything on that list would be their responsibility.

anything else you ingest is YOUR responsibility.

if you have a question on something, it sounds like you can send it in and they'll tell you if WHAT YOU SENT is ok --- that's it.

if the nfl's lab screwed up, and you can prove that, then you probably have a good case, but if star caps changed their formula and you got screwed because of it, then you just got screwed.

whether you have grounds for a legit lawsuit would probably depend on fda regulations, which I have no clue about, but that doesn't help any w/the suspension.

 

[flooredyas]

not necessarily.

I'm not a lawyer, I'm not any kind of nfl insider, so this is all just half assed guessing, but it sounds like the nfl puts out a list of approved stuff you can take, and anything on that list would be their responsibility.

anything else you ingest is YOUR responsibility.

if you have a question on something, it sounds like you can send it in and they'll tell you if WHAT YOU SENT is ok --- that's it.

if the nfl's lab screwed up, and you can prove that, then you probably have a good case, but if star caps changed their formula and you got screwed because of it, then you just got screwed.

whether you have grounds for a legit lawsuit would probably depend on fda regulations, which I have no clue about, but that doesn't help any w/the suspension.

If star caps changed their formula?Maybe this has been discussed, if so I missed it.

Right now, as I understand things, I see the players not getting any suspension, given the NFL had approved the use of the questioned drug. Please correct me if I am wrong about the "changed Formula" thing.

 

[FFdork]

The fact that Starcaps pulled their #### off the shelves has to help the players a bit. (actually stopped shipping, but what is still on shelves can be sold)

Another tidbit: a study published in the November/December 2007 issue of the Journal of Analytical Toxicology found traces of Bumetanide in urine tests of people who took StarCaps.

These were off the street people, not the players.

And: Several experts interviewed by the AP have said they found it odd that NFL players would choose to use Bumetanide because it is so easy to detect in drug tests

So, regular people were found to have traces of the banned substance from taking the pills. The banned substance is easily detectable. McCallister had the pills tested before he started taking them and they came up clean.

Sounds like a slam dunk for the player(s).

Of course in the wacky world that is the NFL he's sure to lose an appeal.

If this is documented, then I don't see how the NFL can suspend McAllister. The blame would be on the institution that approved the starcaps or the manufacturer if they changed the cocktail. Either of these situations could get messy with lawsuits.

The reason they can suspend him (and the others) is that the policy basically states that you're responsible for what you put in your body. No excuses.I think given the number of players involved and the mitigating circumstances, the NFL would like to find a way out of it. If the names that have been implicated are correct it's season over for the Saints and Vikings if they suspend all of these guys for 4 games.

Still, you have to wonder about setting a precedent where players can claim they didn't know b/c it wasn't listed on a label. Most of these supplement type things you can buy aren't regulated by the FDA. Some of the companies that make them are pretty shady. If word gets out that this or that supplement contains a secret ingredient that can mask steroids or other drugs, there will always be some players that try to take advantage.

 

[Anon]

Nesbit files suit against starcap manufacturer

Saints’ Nesbit files suit against diet pill maker

By BRETT MARTEL, AP Sports Writer

Oct 28, 8:35 pm EDT

Buzz Up PrintMETAIRIE, La. (AP)—Saints offensive guard Jamar Nesbit filed suit Tuesday against the maker of a weight-loss supplement, alleging it was improperly spiked with a diuretic that is banned by the NFL.

The lawsuit against the makers of StarCaps, an over-the-counter product, was filed in federal district court in New Jersey, said Nesbit’s attorney Brian Molloy.

Nesbit returned last week from a four-game suspension levied after he tested positive for Bumetanide, a substance that helps rid the body of excess water and salt. The NFL considers the substance a possible masking agent for steroids.

It is the same substance for which several other players around the league have reportedly tested positive, including three other Saints: running back Deuce McAllister and defensive ends Will Smith and Charles Grant.

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McAllister, Smith and Grant remain on the Saints roster pending a consolidated appeal of their suspensions, said a person familiar with their case. The person spoke to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity because the appeals are ongoing.

Nesbit never appealed his suspension because he did not expect to win, and instead chose get it over with as soon as possible while trying to recoup his $235,294 in lost salary from StarCaps, Molloy said.

“Under NFL rules, you are strictly liable for what is in your body. They don’t care how it got there, contaminated supplements or otherwise,” said Molloy, who has represented other players in past appeals of NFL suspensions for banned substances. “So he did not appeal his suspension and focused his attention on going after the manufacturer of StarCaps.”

In addition to lost salary, the lawsuit seeks money for damage to Nesbit’s reputation and for the alleged intentional, undisclosed spiking of the product with Bumetanide.

Molloy said some of Nesbit’s leftover pills were tested and found to be contaminated with Bumetanide, which is not listed as an ingredient.

StarCaps did not immediately respond to an e-mail from The Associated Press seeking comment on the allegations.

McAllister, who publicly acknowledged he was being investigated by the league after the Saints’ 37-32 victory over San Diego on Sunday, has said his positive test for Bumetanide also resulted from his use of StarCaps. He said he has been using the product to help him control his weight for four years and had the pills lab-tested before he began taking them.

Nesbit’s lawsuit was filed the day after the Saints flew home from London, where they improved to 4-4 by beating the Chargers.

The Saints and the NFL have declined to discuss the investigations of individual players’ alleged use of banned substances, citing confidentiality rules.

However, coach Sean Payton indicated he did not expect to learn of any new suspensions of Saints players before New Orleans’ next game at Atlanta on Nov. 9.

“I think we’re beyond that right now,” Payton said Tuesday at the team’s suburban headquarters. “Without commenting on dates or specifics, I’m sure at some point there will be a hearing and there will be a decision made by the league and we’ll go from there.”

The Saints have a bye this weekend. They are scheduled to practice on Wednesday and Thursday, but the team said players would not be made available to reporters this week.

Payton said he doesn’t want to get bogged down in long-term plans for the uncertain remainder of what has already been a topsy-turvy season.

“The only thing I could control is our roster and our team right now,” Payton said. “I don’t view it as being in limbo. … We look at our roster week by week and we say, ‘Hey, here we go. And let’s prepare to win a game with who’s up and who’s inactive.’

“All the other things will take care of themselves,” Payton continued. “We’ll let the process take it’s course and see where that goes.”

Still, Payton conceded it would be a challenge to cope with the losses of three top players at the same time.

“Anytime you lose a guy that’s been in your lineup on a regular basis, it’s going to be a challenge,” Payton said. “I don’t want to speculate in that specific case with those three players, but obviously it becomes harder than if they were active. It’s like having a rash of injuries all at the same time for four weeks.”

 

[-baller]

it's season over for the Saints and Vikings if they suspend all of these guys for 4 games.

sincerely, ~ A. Patsfan

 

[heidbrink]

I don't quite understand the magnitude of the charges here. Players with weight issues were taking water pills. These pills were even purportedly approved by the league. While I understand a "masking agent" being on the banned list, I have heard no charges whatsoever there is any evidence of substances that would need to be "masked", ie hgh, steroid. This just seems out of whack.

 

[-baller]

I don't quite understand the magnitude of the charges here. Players with weight issues were taking water pills. These pills were even purportedly approved by the league. While I understand a "masking agent" being on the banned list, I have heard no charges whatsoever there is any evidence of substances that would need to be "masked", ie hgh, steroid. This just seems out of whack.

what is so puzzling about all this?the league has a pretty straightforward policy.the players tested positive for a banned substance.the penalty is probably pretty standard.you don't get years off your sentence for buying houses for single moms, or being a fat guy.cheating is cheating.

 

[Rovers]

In a case like this, the NFL should go after StarCaps themselves. I mean McAllister did have the pills tested... and the manufacturer never listed the banned substance in their ingredients... these players are victims.

If the NFL goes after StarCaps, how many other companies would spike their products this way? This product may not be FDA approved, but there are federal laws governing product labels... and StarCaps clearly volated federal law here when they spiked the product with an unlisted substance.

That way, the NFL has a scapegoat to blame the entire thing on, while "pardoning" the players.

I hope the NFL offices are smart enough to handle it this way....

 

[FFdork]

it's season over for the Saints and Vikings if they suspend all of these guys for 4 games.

sincerely, ~ A. Patsfan

I'm not sure I'm following you. Is this a Brady thing or are you saying they should be able to overcome it like the Pats have to some degree?In any case, the Vikes and Saints are a far cry from the Pats. They have struggled as it is, so losing that many key players at this juncture in the season would basically mean their slim chances of doing something this year go to none.

 

[FFdork]

cheating is cheating.

Most people don't seem to think this was any attempt at cheating. It was a bunch of guys with weight issues trying to reach weight goals. They were using something that isn't illegal and wasn't on the banned list. The problem is that the letter of the law in the NFL says they really don't care about the circumstances, if you are taking something on that list you sit for 4 games. So the question is whether they're going to chose to enforce the letter of the law or the spirit of it. My guess is they will end up doing the latter in part because there are so many players involved. Although it wasn't 'roids related, the Travis Henry case last year showed there was some room for interpretation of the rules.

 

[-baller]

cheating is cheating.

Most people don't seem to think this was any attempt at cheating. It was a bunch of guys with weight issues trying to reach weight goals. They were using something that isn't illegal and wasn't on the banned list. The problem is that the letter of the law in the NFL says they really don't care about the circumstances, if you are taking something on that list you sit for 4 games. So the question is whether they're going to chose to enforce the letter of the law or the spirit of it. My guess is they will end up doing the latter in part because there are so many players involved. Although it wasn't 'roids related, the Travis Henry case last year showed there was some room for interpretation of the rules.

so, what you're saying is that when a lot of people cheat it's ok.I didn't realize we neded to divine someone's intentions in order to enforce obscure and pointless rules.you have absolutely no idea how that BANNED substance got in their system, or why they were taking it.

 

[FFdork]

cheating is cheating.

Most people don't seem to think this was any attempt at cheating. It was a bunch of guys with weight issues trying to reach weight goals. They were using something that isn't illegal and wasn't on the banned list. The problem is that the letter of the law in the NFL says they really don't care about the circumstances, if you are taking something on that list you sit for 4 games. So the question is whether they're going to chose to enforce the letter of the law or the spirit of it. My guess is they will end up doing the latter in part because there are so many players involved. Although it wasn't 'roids related, the Travis Henry case last year showed there was some room for interpretation of the rules.

so, what you're saying is that when a lot of people cheat it's ok.I didn't realize we neded to divine someone's intentions in order to enforce obscure and pointless rules.

you have absolutely no idea how that BANNED substance got in their system, or why they were taking it.

No, I said nothing along the lines of "when a lot of people cheat it's OK" (you're be perfect for writing misleading political ads BTW--you should look into it). I was addressing the reality that there are other considerations (including financial) for the NFL when you have a bunch of important players involved in a case where it seems like there are unusual circumstances.As to the rest of your reply, as I said the last time, I'm saying that there are two ways you can do something: enforcing the absolute letter of the rule OR the spirit of it. Clearly, you're in favor of the first, which is fine. When we're talking about something as unimportant as a game that we watch for entertainment, I'm OK with the latter.

To me there's a clear difference between unknowingly taking something that broke a rule and deliberately cheating. You don't know why they were taking it either. We'll probably never know for sure, but the circumstantial evidence I've seen so far suggests that this was NOT a bunch of guys trying to mask steroids (which is the reason the substance is on the banned list). If something comes to light that suggests otherwise, then I'm all for suspending the players.

 

[Rovers]

cheating is cheating.

Most people don't seem to think this was any attempt at cheating. It was a bunch of guys with weight issues trying to reach weight goals. They were using something that isn't illegal and wasn't on the banned list. The problem is that the letter of the law in the NFL says they really don't care about the circumstances, if you are taking something on that list you sit for 4 games. So the question is whether they're going to chose to enforce the letter of the law or the spirit of it. My guess is they will end up doing the latter in part because there are so many players involved. Although it wasn't 'roids related, the Travis Henry case last year showed there was some room for interpretation of the rules.

so, what you're saying is that when a lot of people cheat it's ok.I didn't realize we neded to divine someone's intentions in order to enforce obscure and pointless rules.you have absolutely no idea how that BANNED substance got in their system, or why they were taking it.

 

[chris1969]

No matter what agreement the player's union and NFL have, it can be appealed in a court of law.

The fact that Starcaps pulled everything off the shelves, is damaging to the NFL.

The fact that player's aren't suspended this week is a sign of weakness on the NFL's part. If they wanted to, they could force the suspensions now, and be justified given the current agreement. The fact that it hasn't happened yet shows that they are worried about a media backlash.

I'm not too certain that that the suspensions will happen, but if they don't I'm sure Nesbit's next lawsuit is against the NFL.

 

[-baller]

someone posted in here somewhere that they didn't actually pull anything off shelves, if they even use shelves.

I think they might've just stopped shipping new product.

I don't know why you seem to think the nfl would blow off the appeals system in this particular case for no reason.

this isn't the first time a player was suspended and appealed the suspension, you know.

what possible reason would the nfl have to circumvent the cba, skip the appeals process, and rush in some halfassed suspensions this week?

 

[chris1969]

someone posted in here somewhere that they didn't actually pull anything off shelves, if they even use shelves.I think they might've just stopped shipping new product.I don't know why you seem to think the nfl would blow off the appeals system in this particular case for no reason.this isn't the first time a player was suspended and appealed the suspension, you know.what possible reason would the nfl have to circumvent the cba, skip the appeals process, and rush in some halfassed suspensions this week?

I'm not sure if the substance abuse program is different, but the normal appeals process doesn't occur until the suspensions are handed out.As far as pulling off the shelves or not shipping anymore, it still makes them look like a certain Chinese milk company.

 

[-baller]

if the suspensions haven't been handed out already then what are they appealing?

deuce said he heard from the league on this a month ago.

 

[chris1969]

Your answering your own question. If they have been handed out, you have a suspension date and duration. If I missed an announcement, let me know, but i usually find out what players are appealing before I find out that they are appealing. I'm giving it a little slack being under the substance abuse program, but media leaks should have had dates and durations by now.

 

[shims3]

So is Deuce going to be active or suspended for Week 10?

Sounds like nothing has been handed out.

 

[FFdork]

There's a newsblurb on FBGs:

November 3, 2008, 10:17

Saints :: RB, DL

Saints Players' Appeals May Be Weeks Away

Peter King, Sports Illustrated - [Full Article]

Peter King of Sports Illustrated is reporting that New Orleans Saints running back Deuce McAllister, along with defensive linemen Will Smith and Charles Grant, accused of using a substance on the NFL's banned list, will have a good chance to win their appeals. He also reports that the appeals may not be heard until later this month.

So it sounds like the Deuce is loose for at least another week regardless of the outcome.

 

[myhousekey]

Peter King of Sports Illustrated is reporting that New Orleans Saints running back Deuce McAllister, along with defensive linemen Will Smith and Charles Grant, accused of using a substance on the NFL's banned list, will have a good chance to win their appeals. He also reports that the appeals may not be heard until later this month.

Saints put Charles Grant on IR today. Does that mean he has to wait until next year to serve his suspension if it comes down?

 

[NWLA Saints Fan]

So let me be sure I have this right...

Earlier this year, Nesbit took a StarCaps product and ended up having to serve a suspension because it contained a banned substance. He didn't appeal the NFL and is now suing StarCaps.

Deuce and co. took a StarCaps product and are now appealing a four game suspension and according to Peter King will likely be successful.

So, more than a month ago a guy was punished for taking a StarCaps product...and now more players are trying to get out of punishment for using a product from the same company--possibly even the same product.

Don't get me wrong, I want those guys on the field because I'm a fan and I want to be able to keep thinking Deuce is a guy with some integrity. I just think it's crazy that StarCaps is coming up in two different suspensions, especially given the chance that the later guys could have learned from Nesbit, especially since some of them share a locker room. Does anyone know how long the product stays in your system? Could these guys have been taking at the same time as Nesbit and are only now facing the repercussions? Am I just being stupid?

 

[FFdork]

So let me be sure I have this right...Earlier this year, Nesbit took a StarCaps product and ended up having to serve a suspension because it contained a banned substance. He didn't appeal the NFL and is now suing StarCaps.Deuce and co. took a StarCaps product and are now appealing a four game suspension and according to Peter King will likely be successful. So, more than a month ago a guy was punished for taking a StarCaps product...and now more players are trying to get out of punishment for using a product from the same company--possibly even the same product. Don't get me wrong, I want those guys on the field because I'm a fan and I want to be able to keep thinking Deuce is a guy with some integrity. I just think it's crazy that StarCaps is coming up in two different suspensions, especially given the chance that the later guys could have learned from Nesbit, especially since some of them share a locker room. Does anyone know how long the product stays in your system? Could these guys have been taking at the same time as Nesbit and are only now facing the repercussions? Am I just being stupid?

I'm not sure I'm following you. Nesbit chose not to appeal. It's hard to know what the time lines are in the various cases b/c we're really not supposed to know anything due to the confidentiality (yeah right) of the substance abuse program. There was a quote from Deuce that implied this has been ongoing for a while behind the scenes before it got leaked to the press.We haven't heard anything to indicate that players were warned about StarCaps products previous to this incident and I would seriously doubt that if players in the same locker room knew a guy just got in trouble for something that they would just keep taking it and risking suspension.

 

[-baller]

I have no idea when nesbit got busted, but I think deuce said something to the effect that he had been notified by the league 4-5 weeks prior to the story breaking, and christ knows the time it takes from getting a sample, to testing it, to notification.

 

[eliasartigue]

It has been speculated that the tests given were during training camp or right before the season started. This si not something that just happened. Deuce is a standup guy and he was not masking steroids and neither were any of these players.

Lawsuits will be ongoing with Starbucks and possibly the NFL.

To those that think it was cheating it was not BUT I will say this;

If you don't think steroids are being taken by players you are absolutely delusional. Steroids are probably not used often for strength or as a performance enhancement but they are part of the game. I am sure they are used and monitored by doctors. How else could these players keep playing through injuries that take us a month or longer to heal and they back on the field in a matter of weeks?

Steroids speed up the recovery of injuries and if the NFL didn't allow it, the game would be entirely different. Fantasy football would be 100% luck because you would never know who would linger on the bench due to injury. I know the NFL medical staff and team doctors are top notch but players are just like us when it comes to injury.