discussion whether to count fake punt/FG TDs as special teams' TDs (1 Viewer)

[Lash]

i am in favor of counting it as a ST TD

1) The special teams coach installs the play upon reviewing film of other team's special teams

2) The special teams players practice the play during the week

3) The special teams players and special teams coaches work together to pull it off during the game

4) There is either a kicker or punter on the field to start the play

5) There is either a field goal team or punting team on the field to start the play

6) 90+% of the time, the other team's special teams are on the field

now, i've heard the "you can't double dip" argument being used before (i.e. you can't give the WR the TD he catches points AND the Special teams points) ... that's the same argument we give when we say we can't give the punt returner TD points AND give the special teams TD points too

well guess what, we give the QB TD points for a pass AND the WR TD points for a catch... that's double dipping too i guess so i don't see the problem with giving the WR points AND the special teams TD points when the special teams were on the field when the play was run

/disclaimer no i did NOT lose this week because OAK wasn't awarded points for the fake punt TD ... our league actually counted it as a ST TD

was just wondering what other people thought...

 

[shadyridr]

I think an argument can be made both ways. No really point in debating it. However its set up in your league is the way to go. In my league Lechler gets pts for TD pass and Boss gets pts for TD catch.

 

[Jayrod]

A fake punt or FG is not a special teams play. Special teams involve a kick. It is an offensive play from scrimmage, just like a run or pass on first, second or third down. Formation and personnel don't determine what type of play it is.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

These threads are always a lot of fun, with people on each side never having any problem seeing where the other fellow is coming from.

 

[drew726]

It's a special teams play because it's practiced by special teams and not the starting line up.

 

[SacramentoBob]

100% absolutely not special teams.

 

[SacramentoBob]

It's a special teams play because it's practiced by special teams and not the starting line up.

So backups don't count for offense or defense?

 

[SacramentoBob]

It's a trick play on offense, no different than a flea flicker or fumblerooski. Part of the trick is the personnel package used.

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

There's no such thing as "special teams." If you have the ball to start the play, you're the offense, and your opponent is the defense.

How you prefer to treat such plays in fake football is totally arbitrary. In my main dynasty league, if an offense scores a TD out of a FG formation, we award points to the kicker equal to twice the amount he'd receive for a FG from the same spot on the field (e.g. Janikowski gets 10.4 points for the TD yesterday).

 

[We Tigers]

If we just called it Defense and Kick Returns, it'd eliminate any of the so-called ambiguity.

 

[Lash]

If we just called it Defense and Kick Returns, it'd eliminate any of the so-called ambiguity.

that is the other argument i've heard from the other side that makes the most sense for not counting it as special teams ... only RETURN touchdowns are counted for D/ST (i.e. int return, KO return, fumble return, punt return, missed/blocked FG return, blocked punt return)

 

[Stinkin Ref]

no way is this a D/ST teams play.....the Raiders went for it on 4th down....it doesn't matter who was on the field...

 

[Big Petey]

There's no such thing as "special teams." If you have the ball to start the play, you're the offense, and your opponent is the defense. How you prefer to treat such plays in fake football is totally arbitrary. In my main dynasty league, if an offense scores a TD out of a FG formation, we award points to the kicker equal to twice the amount he'd receive for a FG from the same spot on the field (e.g. Janikowski gets 10.4 points for the TD yesterday).

10.4 points for a player who never even touched the ball???

 

[Stinkin Ref]

There's no such thing as "special teams." If you have the ball to start the play, you're the offense, and your opponent is the defense. How you prefer to treat such plays in fake football is totally arbitrary. In my main dynasty league, if an offense scores a TD out of a FG formation, we award points to the kicker equal to twice the amount he'd receive for a FG from the same spot on the field (e.g. Janikowski gets 10.4 points for the TD yesterday).

10.4 points for a player who never even touched the ball???

i was wondering the same thing........

 

[Captain Hook]

Seems like an annual thread the first time one of these plays happens each year - IF you haven't done it already, make your league rules specific on how to score plays like this - and avoid the needless arguments

 

[spodog]

Seems like an annual thread the first time one of these plays happens each year - IF you haven't done it already, make your league rules specific on how to score plays like this - and avoid the needless arguments

Yeah. This.In our league, this play is a special teams play and only a special teams play. Our guideline is that if the team lines up at the line of scrimmage in one of the special teams formations (basically, a K or Punter on the field), then the entire play is a ST play, regardless of what happens once the ball is snapped.

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

There's no such thing as "special teams." If you have the ball to start the play, you're the offense, and your opponent is the defense. How you prefer to treat such plays in fake football is totally arbitrary. In my main dynasty league, if an offense scores a TD out of a FG formation, we award points to the kicker equal to twice the amount he'd receive for a FG from the same spot on the field (e.g. Janikowski gets 10.4 points for the TD yesterday).

10.4 points for a player who never even touched the ball???

i was wondering the same thing........

He would've had a shot at a 52-yard FG, but sacrificed that opportunity for the benefit of his team, and it was his presence on the field that made the fake possible and successful. Our league rewards that.

 

[Jayrod]

Seems like an annual thread the first time one of these plays happens each year - IF you haven't done it already, make your league rules specific on how to score plays like this - and avoid the needless arguments

Yeah. This.In our league, this play is a special teams play and only a special teams play. Our guideline is that if the team lines up at the line of scrimmage in one of the special teams formations (basically, a K or Punter on the field), then the entire play is a ST play, regardless of what happens once the ball is snapped.

I know this is fancy football, so you can do what you like, but according to all things official with the NFL (specifically the rulebook and stat keeping), these are not special teams plays. They are offensive plays vs a defense. Until the ball is kicked, it is not a special teams play.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

Seems like an annual thread the first time one of these plays happens each year - IF you haven't done it already, make your league rules specific on how to score plays like this - and avoid the needless arguments

Yeah. This.In our league, this play is a special teams play and only a special teams play. Our guideline is that if the team lines up at the line of scrimmage in one of the special teams formations (basically, a K or Punter on the field), then the entire play is a ST play, regardless of what happens once the ball is snapped.

wow....I would hate this....

 

[CalBear]

He would've had a shot at a 52-yard FG, but sacrificed that opportunity for the benefit of his team, and it was his presence on the field that made the fake possible and successful. Our league rewards that.

He "would've had a shot at a 52-yard FG" if it was first down, too, if they called a kick instead of an offensive play. He didn't pass up anything, any more than he does when the Raiders go for it on fourth down in a normal offensive set. The coach called an offensive play and Janikowski doesn't deserve the points for it any more than the long snapper does.

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

He would've had a shot at a 52-yard FG, but sacrificed that opportunity for the benefit of his team, and it was his presence on the field that made the fake possible and successful. Our league rewards that.

He "would've had a shot at a 52-yard FG" if it was first down, too, if they called a kick instead of an offensive play. He didn't pass up anything, any more than he does when the Raiders go for it on fourth down in a normal offensive set. The coach called an offensive play and Janikowski doesn't deserve the points for it any more than the long snapper does.

We give long snappers points for XPs and FGs, obviously, but they don't get points for a TD scored on a fake FG. I may need to revisit that idea.

 

[CalBear]

He would've had a shot at a 52-yard FG, but sacrificed that opportunity for the benefit of his team, and it was his presence on the field that made the fake possible and successful. Our league rewards that.

He "would've had a shot at a 52-yard FG" if it was first down, too, if they called a kick instead of an offensive play. He didn't pass up anything, any more than he does when the Raiders go for it on fourth down in a normal offensive set. The coach called an offensive play and Janikowski doesn't deserve the points for it any more than the long snapper does.

We give long snappers points for XPs and FGs, obviously, but they don't get points for a TD scored on a fake FG. I may need to revisit that idea.

Why wouldn't they? They snapped the ball. For that matter, the left guard should get points for it too.

 

[SacramentoBob]

He would've had a shot at a 52-yard FG, but sacrificed that opportunity for the benefit of his team, and it was his presence on the field that made the fake possible and successful. Our league rewards that.

He "would've had a shot at a 52-yard FG" if it was first down, too, if they called a kick instead of an offensive play. He didn't pass up anything, any more than he does when the Raiders go for it on fourth down in a normal offensive set. The coach called an offensive play and Janikowski doesn't deserve the points for it any more than the long snapper does.

We give long snappers points for XPs and FGs, obviously, but they don't get points for a TD scored on a fake FG. I may need to revisit that idea.

Why wouldn't they? They snapped the ball. For that matter, the left guard should get points for it too.

The guards should probably get points since controlling the middle is very important. So long snapper, right and left guards should be getting points on these plays.

 

[SacramentoBob]

I wouldn't give the guards as many points as the long snapper, since the LS has a harder job.

 

[Yenrub]

A fake punt or FG is not a special teams play. Special teams involve a kick. It is an offensive play from scrimmage, just like a run or pass on first, second or third down. Formation and personnel don't determine what type of play it is.

 

[Pnishthm]

Seems like an annual thread the first time one of these plays happens each year - IF you haven't done it already, make your league rules specific on how to score plays like this - and avoid the needless arguments

Yeah. This.In our league, this play is a special teams play and only a special teams play. Our guideline is that if the team lines up at the line of scrimmage in one of the special teams formations (basically, a K or Punter on the field), then the entire play is a ST play, regardless of what happens once the ball is snapped.

So when a kicker kicks a FG this goes to the special teams as well?

 

[GregR]

Seems like an annual thread the first time one of these plays happens each year - IF you haven't done it already, make your league rules specific on how to score plays like this - and avoid the needless arguments

Yeah. This.In our league, this play is a special teams play and only a special teams play. Our guideline is that if the team lines up at the line of scrimmage in one of the special teams formations (basically, a K or Punter on the field), then the entire play is a ST play, regardless of what happens once the ball is snapped.

Can you clarify your rule? It isn't at all clear as stated. You gave two different criteria, lining up in a special teams formation, or having a K or Punter on the field. Which one is it? Both do not necessarily occur on special teams plays. In fact, neither need occur on a special teams play. For example... what if Chad Ochocinco attempts a FG with Tom Brady holding the ball? It's a special teams formation but there isn't a punter or kicker on the field.

What happens if a QB takes a snap from a normal shotgun formation and pooch punts it? Or drop kicks it for an attempted FG? There wasn't a kicker or punter on the field and there wasn't any special teams formation used.

What happens if a punter or kicker comes in and takes snaps under center from a normal offensive formation and runs normal offensive plays? Since there is a punter or kicker on the field are all of the offensive plays run by him considered special teams plays? There have been NFL games where a punter has taken over as QB due to injury.