Do you support amnesty for illegal immigrants? (1 Viewer)

[timschochet]

Spin off from Jim 11's thread. I ask this question expecting that the vast majority here will answer no. I say yes. But I want to stress that this is a simple yes or no question because we should not be deceived:

"Path to citizenship" means amnesty.

"Limited guest worker program" means amnesty.

"Comprehensive immigration reform" means amnesty.

No matter what you hear from the current Administration or anyone else about strengthening the borders, clamping down on employees, imposing a citizenship verification system, etc.- if the proposal includes any of the above language, it is amnesty, pure and simple. As much as I personally want this, I don't want it delivered to us through code words and false premises, as it's being done. George W. Bush, John McCain, and now Barack Obama have all been guilty of trying to mislead the public over this issue, and I detest that. Call it what it is.

I am for Amnesty because it will be better for America, and because we're not getting rid of them anyhow. I fully realize I am in the minority and will remain so. But if the arguments on my side are so unconvincing that the only way to get them into law is through deception, better they fail.

 

[StrikeS2k]

Tim,

I have a question for you. In addition to amnesty for the ones that are here now, what do we do with the next wave?

 

[Fennis]

yes.

 

[Fennis]

Tim, I have a question for you. In addition to amnesty for the ones that are here now, what do we do with the next wave?

same thing we did with the previous wave and the previous wave before them and the previous wave...

 

[timschochet]

Tim, I have a question for you. In addition to amnesty for the ones that are here now, what do we do with the next wave?

Amnesty.

 

[Darth Cheney]

Yes. Yes I do.

 

[StrikeS2k]

Tim, I have a question for you. In addition to amnesty for the ones that are here now, what do we do with the next wave?

Amnesty.

Wow.

 

[shake zula]

Tim, I have a question for you. In addition to amnesty for the ones that are here now, what do we do with the next wave?

What wave? Unless you live in Cali, NM, or Texas you are not dealing with a "wave" of immigrants. People exaggerate on this particular issue more than any other. With that being said, I am opposed to amnesty.

 

[Bamboo Bill]

Spin off from Jim 11's thread. I ask this question expecting that the vast majority here will answer no. I say yes. But I want to stress that this is a simple yes or no question because we should not be deceived: "Path to citizenship" means amnesty."Limited guest worker program" means amnesty."Comprehensive immigration reform" means amnesty.No matter what you hear from the current Administration or anyone else about strengthening the borders, clamping down on employees, imposing a citizenship verification system, etc.- if the proposal includes any of the above language, it is amnesty, pure and simple. As much as I personally want this, I don't want it delivered to us through code words and false premises, as it's being done. George W. Bush, John McCain, and now Barack Obama have all been guilty of trying to mislead the public over this issue, and I detest that. Call it what it is. I am for Amnesty because it will be better for America, and because we're not getting rid of them anyhow. I fully realize I am in the minority and will remain so. But if the arguments on my side are so unconvincing that the only way to get them into law is through deception, better they fail.

Are we including the illegals from Eastern Europe as well?

 

[timschochet]

Tim, I have a question for you. In addition to amnesty for the ones that are here now, what do we do with the next wave?

Amnesty.

Wow.

Why the wow? Were you expecting me to be inconsistent here?

 

[BassNBrew]

Amensty means one thing...forgiving/ignoring people who broke the law. I voted no, probably should have voted yes besed on your definition. I'd open the immigration ranks by about 10-20 million and have jobs lined up for them to ease their transition. I'd then ship back all the illegals and fine their employers an amount 2x what it costs to return them.

 

[Arizona Ron]

Make them citizens so they can pay taxes like everyone else.

 

[timschochet]

Spin off from Jim 11's thread. I ask this question expecting that the vast majority here will answer no. I say yes. But I want to stress that this is a simple yes or no question because we should not be deceived: "Path to citizenship" means amnesty."Limited guest worker program" means amnesty."Comprehensive immigration reform" means amnesty.No matter what you hear from the current Administration or anyone else about strengthening the borders, clamping down on employees, imposing a citizenship verification system, etc.- if the proposal includes any of the above language, it is amnesty, pure and simple. As much as I personally want this, I don't want it delivered to us through code words and false premises, as it's being done. George W. Bush, John McCain, and now Barack Obama have all been guilty of trying to mislead the public over this issue, and I detest that. Call it what it is. I am for Amnesty because it will be better for America, and because we're not getting rid of them anyhow. I fully realize I am in the minority and will remain so. But if the arguments on my side are so unconvincing that the only way to get them into law is through deception, better they fail.

Are we including the illegals from Eastern Europe as well?

All are welcome. The more the merrier. These people represent wealth and energy.

 

[Rayderr]

by your definitions, yes. I'd like to see something similar to the Lodge-Philbin act of the 50s.

 

[timschochet]

I'm rather shocked by the early poll results. I was expecting something like 80-90% opposed. I still am.

 

[Brutis]

I'm rather shocked by the early poll results. I was expecting something like 80-90% opposed. I still am.

I voted NO, people need to go back to there own country.

 

[Weapon of Mass Instruction]

Make them citizens so they can pay taxes like everyone else.

National sales tax should be implemented in place of income tax. This way ALL money under the table (illegals, drugs, foreigners, etc) is taxed...that would maket he pie bigger.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

No.

 

[Rayderr]

I'm rather shocked by the early poll results. I was expecting something like 80-90% opposed. I still am.

It's because you're suing a non-standard definition for amnesty. Guest Worker program is not amnesty. It means people from other countries can come work here for a while. Immigration reform does not amnesty. It means people currently in other countries can have an easier time immigrating here. Neither actually addresses the illegals currently in the country.

 

[Christo]

No, if only because it encourages more to do the same thing.

I'm curious tim, why did you make this a thread about amnesty when it seems your real position is for open borders?

 

[BassNBrew]

I'm rather shocked by the early poll results. I was expecting something like 80-90% opposed. I still am.

Well you changed the definition of amnesty. Why don't you start a poll asking "Who likes a headache?" and then qualify it by saying a headache also means beer or steak or sex.

 

[timschochet]

I'm rather shocked by the early poll results. I was expecting something like 80-90% opposed. I still am.

I voted NO, people need to go back to there own country.

Question for you, Brutis, since you served in the military (and thank you for that, BTW). What about illegals who have served? Would you grant them a special status, or do they have to go back too?

 

[Buckychudd]

We need to have some sort of amnesty program for the illegal immigants already here. I'm not sure how that should be structured, i.e. whether we grant them citizenship, guest worker program, etc.

We also need to fix the immigration problem in the future by allowing more legal immigrants to enter the country, make it easier for them to do so, do it in an efficient manner, and then cracking down on those who still choose to come illegally.

 

[glumpy]

Yes. But...

The way it works now is garbage. Law enforcement speaks a good line about shipping them out, some local counties even have gone so far as to build/designate jail space for holding them long enough to be processed--but then we get repeat offenders for DUI's, drugs, stealing and the like who are held for three days and released since it takes longer than that. I'm all for amnesty for those who are trying to work within the system and paying taxes; those who repeatedly flaunt the laws then send them back.

 

[Christo]

I'm rather shocked by the early poll results. I was expecting something like 80-90% opposed. I still am.

Well you changed the definition of amnesty. Why don't you start a poll asking "Who likes a headache?" and then qualify it by saying a headache also means beer or steak or sex.

 

[timschochet]

No, if only because it encourages more to do the same thing.I'm curious tim, why did you make this a thread about amnesty when it seems your real position is for open borders?

It's two separate issues. I am for amnesty AND open broders, but I don't think open borders will ever happen. I do think amnesty will.

 

[Rayderr]

No, if only because it encourages more to do the same thing.I'm curious tim, why did you make this a thread about amnesty when it seems your real position is for open borders?

It's two separate issues. I am for amnesty AND open broders, but I don't think open borders will ever happen. I do think amnesty will.

Giving amnesty for all current illegals and all future illegals is the same as open borders.

 

[timschochet]

I'm rather shocked by the early poll results. I was expecting something like 80-90% opposed. I still am.

It's because you're suing a non-standard definition for amnesty. Guest Worker program is not amnesty. It means people from other countries can come work here for a while. Immigration reform does not amnesty. It means people currently in other countries can have an easier time immigrating here. Neither actually addresses the illegals currently in the country.

Obviously I disagree with you. I think guest worker and immigration reform DO mean amnesty. They're code words used by politicians too afraid to tell the truth about what they're proposing.

 

[StrikeS2k]

We need to have some sort of amnesty program for the illegal immigants already here. I'm not sure how that should be structured, i.e. whether we grant them citizenship, guest worker program, etc.

We also need to fix the immigration problem in the future by allowing more legal immigrants to enter the country, make it easier for them to do so, do it in an efficient manner, and then cracking down on those who still choose to come illegally.

You realize we have the most liberal immigration policy of ANY country on the planet, don't you? And do you know what the penalty is for illegal immigration in Mexico?

 

[Christo]

No, if only because it encourages more to do the same thing.

I'm curious tim, why did you make this a thread about amnesty when it seems your real position is for open borders?

It's two separate issues. I am for amnesty AND open broders, but I don't think open borders will ever happen. I do think amnesty will.

Not the way you qualified it.

 

[timschochet]

No, if only because it encourages more to do the same thing.I'm curious tim, why did you make this a thread about amnesty when it seems your real position is for open borders?

It's two separate issues. I am for amnesty AND open broders, but I don't think open borders will ever happen. I do think amnesty will.

Giving amnesty for all current illegals and all future illegals is the same as open borders.

No, because unfortunately they still have to sneak across and risk their lives to get here.

 

[StrikeS2k]

No, if only because it encourages more to do the same thing.I'm curious tim, why did you make this a thread about amnesty when it seems your real position is for open borders?

It's two separate issues. I am for amnesty AND open broders, but I don't think open borders will ever happen. I do think amnesty will.

Giving amnesty for all current illegals and all future illegals is the same as open borders.

No, because unfortunately they still have to sneak across and risk their lives to get here.

Actually they don't. They could apply for a Visa like other people do.

 

[timschochet]

You realize we have the most liberal immigration policy of ANY country on the planet, don't you?

This makes us the best country in the world. I truly believe that. It is an essential part of America, and we can all be proud of this.But we can do even better.

 

[moleculo]

there is a pretty broad range of solutions:

a) mandatory deportation of all undocumented

b) guest worker program

c) expanded visa program

d) path to citizenship w/ penalty

e) grant to eventual citizenship w/o penalty

f) grant immediate citizenship

I'm not sure at point we draw the line that defines "amnesty". I'm sure if you break all of these solutions up, there will be a fraction of people that support each one. So, if you say amnesty includes options b- f, you will probably think that there is broad support for amnesty.

however, I think many would define amnesty less broadly. Personally, I would define amnesty as d-f - I don't think that a-c should be considered anmesty as there is no direct path for full citizenship

 

[timschochet]

No, if only because it encourages more to do the same thing.I'm curious tim, why did you make this a thread about amnesty when it seems your real position is for open borders?

It's two separate issues. I am for amnesty AND open broders, but I don't think open borders will ever happen. I do think amnesty will.

Giving amnesty for all current illegals and all future illegals is the same as open borders.

No, because unfortunately they still have to sneak across and risk their lives to get here.

Actually they don't. They could apply for a Visa like other people do.

But then it's not an open border, either. The question was whether amnesty was the same as open borders. It isn't.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

The best solution here is one that will never be considered - just invade Mexico and annex it. This problem has been a problem since we had to deal with Texas. Just finish that up already. Make Mexico a state, give them 2 Senators and probably 9 or House members and be done with it..

 

[Rayderr]

No, if only because it encourages more to do the same thing.I'm curious tim, why did you make this a thread about amnesty when it seems your real position is for open borders?

It's two separate issues. I am for amnesty AND open broders, but I don't think open borders will ever happen. I do think amnesty will.

Giving amnesty for all current illegals and all future illegals is the same as open borders.

No, because unfortunately they still have to sneak across and risk their lives to get here.

Why would they need to sneak across? As soon as they set one foot in the country, they're here illegally, and under your plan would get amnesty. *Mexican starts to walk towards the border*US Border Guard: Stop right there!*Mexican keeps walking*US Border Guard: I repeat stop where you are!*Mexican sets foot in US*US Border Guard: Well crap. You got amnesty now. Welcome to the US.

 

[Comer]

Tim, I have a question for you. In addition to amnesty for the ones that are here now, what do we do with the next wave?

What wave? Unless you live in Cali, NM, or Texas you are not dealing with a "wave" of immigrants. People exaggerate on this particular issue more than any other. With that being said, I am opposed to amnesty.

Here in SE Michigan there is a huge Middle Eastern population and an ever growing Indian population. I feel like I have to speak Hindu to live here anymore.

 

[timschochet]

there is a pretty broad range of solutions:a) mandatory deportation of all undocumentedb) guest worker programc) expanded visa programd) path to citizenship w/ penaltye) grant to eventual citizenship w/o penaltyf) grant immediate citizenshipI'm not sure at point we draw the line that defines "amnesty". I'm sure if you break all of these solutions up, there will be a fraction of people that support each one. So, if you say amnesty includes options b- f, you will probably think that there is broad support for amnesty.however, I think many would define amnesty less broadly. Personally, I would define amnesty as d-f - I don't think that a-c should be considered anmesty as there is no direct path for full citizenship

b and c will lead to eventual amnesty. Why? because the notion of a "guest worker program" is ludicrous. How do you get these "guests" to leave? They never will, unless you're willing to deport them. Therefore, de facto you are letting them in to stay. Their children will become citizens. Whether or not they are ever citizens themselves, what difference? They're here. Therefore, every choice you listed other than "a" is de facto amnesty.

 

[Buckychudd]

We need to have some sort of amnesty program for the illegal immigants already here. I'm not sure how that should be structured, i.e. whether we grant them citizenship, guest worker program, etc.

We also need to fix the immigration problem in the future by allowing more legal immigrants to enter the country, make it easier for them to do so, do it in an efficient manner, and then cracking down on those who still choose to come illegally.

You realize we have the most liberal immigration policy of ANY country on the planet, don't you? And do you know what the penalty is for illegal immigration in Mexico?

We are one of the very few countries that was built through immigration, I don't see anything wrong with embracing that heritage.

 

[trogg78]

Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

 

[moleculo]

there is a pretty broad range of solutions:a) mandatory deportation of all undocumentedb) guest worker programc) expanded visa programd) path to citizenship w/ penaltye) grant to eventual citizenship w/o penaltyf) grant immediate citizenshipI'm not sure at point we draw the line that defines "amnesty". I'm sure if you break all of these solutions up, there will be a fraction of people that support each one. So, if you say amnesty includes options b- f, you will probably think that there is broad support for amnesty.however, I think many would define amnesty less broadly. Personally, I would define amnesty as d-f - I don't think that a-c should be considered anmesty as there is no direct path for full citizenship

b and c will lead to eventual amnesty. Why? because the notion of a "guest worker program" is ludicrous. How do you get these "guests" to leave? They never will, unless you're willing to deport them. Therefore, de facto you are letting them in to stay. Their children will become citizens. Whether or not they are ever citizens themselves, what difference? They're here. Therefore, every choice you listed other than "a" is de facto amnesty.

why are we not willing to deport them now?

 

[StrikeS2k]

Timmy, I posted this in the other thread but you never answered. This is probably a more appropriate place for it anyways:

And as far as a national system for verifying legal status- that will be considered a civil rights violation and will be tied up in courts for years, I predict, if it's even part of the final bill (which I doubt.)

Ever heard of E-verify?

 

[timschochet]

The best solution here is one that will never be considered - just invade Mexico and annex it. This problem has been a problem since we had to deal with Texas. Just finish that up already. Make Mexico a state, give them 2 Senators and probably 9 or House members and be done with it..

This would be great for us and great for them. I'm dead serious that you're right. Not invade though: offer them statehood (or multistatehood), an open border, dual citizenship, and unrestricted trade. Same with Canada.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

We need to have some sort of amnesty program for the illegal immigants already here. I'm not sure how that should be structured, i.e. whether we grant them citizenship, guest worker program, etc.

We also need to fix the immigration problem in the future by allowing more legal immigrants to enter the country, make it easier for them to do so, do it in an efficient manner, and then cracking down on those who still choose to come illegally.

You realize we have the most liberal immigration policy of ANY country on the planet, don't you? And do you know what the penalty is for illegal immigration in Mexico?

We are one of the very few countries that was built through immigration, I don't see anything wrong with embracing that heritage.

Nor do I.... through a legal and orderly process to ensure the system can function properly and there aren't different classes of citizen/non citizen/ alien, guest alien / illegal alien etc etc....

 

[Rayderr]

there is a pretty broad range of solutions:

a) mandatory deportation of all undocumented

b) guest worker program

c) expanded visa program

d) path to citizenship w/ penalty

e) grant to eventual citizenship w/o penalty

f) grant immediate citizenship

I'm not sure at point we draw the line that defines "amnesty". I'm sure if you break all of these solutions up, there will be a fraction of people that support each one. So, if you say amnesty includes options b- f, you will probably think that there is broad support for amnesty.

however, I think many would define amnesty less broadly. Personally, I would define amnesty as d-f - I don't think that a-c should be considered anmesty as there is no direct path for full citizenship

b and c will lead to eventual amnesty. Why? because the notion of a "guest worker program" is ludicrous. How do you get these "guests" to leave? They never will, unless you're willing to deport them. Therefore, de facto you are letting them in to stay. Their children will become citizens. Whether or not they are ever citizens themselves, what difference? They're here. Therefore, every choice you listed other than "a" is de facto amnesty.

You do realize that we already do this, right? And not just for Mexicans. Problem is, that it is easy for them to disappear once they enter the country. Almost everyone in favor of a guest worker program is also in favor of improving tracking of them so they can't just disappear.

 

[timschochet]

there is a pretty broad range of solutions:a) mandatory deportation of all undocumentedb) guest worker programc) expanded visa programd) path to citizenship w/ penaltye) grant to eventual citizenship w/o penaltyf) grant immediate citizenshipI'm not sure at point we draw the line that defines "amnesty". I'm sure if you break all of these solutions up, there will be a fraction of people that support each one. So, if you say amnesty includes options b- f, you will probably think that there is broad support for amnesty.however, I think many would define amnesty less broadly. Personally, I would define amnesty as d-f - I don't think that a-c should be considered anmesty as there is no direct path for full citizenship

b and c will lead to eventual amnesty. Why? because the notion of a "guest worker program" is ludicrous. How do you get these "guests" to leave? They never will, unless you're willing to deport them. Therefore, de facto you are letting them in to stay. Their children will become citizens. Whether or not they are ever citizens themselves, what difference? They're here. Therefore, every choice you listed other than "a" is de facto amnesty.

why are we not willing to deport them now?

Politicians are cowards. They should stand up to the courage of their convictions. If they truly believe that deportation is the answer, they should do so.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

The best solution here is one that will never be considered - just invade Mexico and annex it. This problem has been a problem since we had to deal with Texas. Just finish that up already. Make Mexico a state, give them 2 Senators and probably 9 or House members and be done with it..

This would be great for us and great for them. I'm dead serious that you're right. Not invade though: offer them statehood (or multistatehood), an open border, dual citizenship, and unrestricted trade. Same with Canada.

No, duel statehood / citizenship is a bad idea for our political system. Just annex them and make them a state. I have to assume that most of their military is here now "guarding" the Home Depot.

 

[StrikeS2k]

there is a pretty broad range of solutions:a) mandatory deportation of all undocumentedb) guest worker programc) expanded visa programd) path to citizenship w/ penaltye) grant to eventual citizenship w/o penaltyf) grant immediate citizenshipI'm not sure at point we draw the line that defines "amnesty". I'm sure if you break all of these solutions up, there will be a fraction of people that support each one. So, if you say amnesty includes options b- f, you will probably think that there is broad support for amnesty.however, I think many would define amnesty less broadly. Personally, I would define amnesty as d-f - I don't think that a-c should be considered anmesty as there is no direct path for full citizenship

b and c will lead to eventual amnesty. Why? because the notion of a "guest worker program" is ludicrous. How do you get these "guests" to leave? They never will, unless you're willing to deport them. Therefore, de facto you are letting them in to stay. Their children will become citizens. Whether or not they are ever citizens themselves, what difference? They're here. Therefore, every choice you listed other than "a" is de facto amnesty.

why are we not willing to deport them now?

Politicians are cowards. They should stand up to the courage of their convictions. If they truly believe that deportation is the answer, they should do so.

We do deport now. But they keep coming back. The real solution is a combination of workplace enforcement, securing the border, AND lastly deportation. Do the first two and 80% of them leave without requiring wasting resources. Then you get the rest as you come across them.

 

[Mr. Littlejeans]

I'm rather shocked by the early poll results. I was expecting something like 80-90% opposed. I still am.

I voted NO, people need to go back to there own country.

Yeah. And the people here should learn the language or get out!