Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
So, knowing what we know today, what order would these three go in?
My guess is:
Rivers
Eli
Ben
My guess is:
Rivers
Eli
Ben
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Do you think the Chargers regret Rivers? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter NY/NJMFDIVER
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Tau837
Footballguy
Agree.
While I agree, they still wasted two years having Rivers sitting the bench and while Brees performed they got nothing but a 1st round knockout in the postseason to show for it. They should of traded Brees back when they had a chance and started Rivers, at least they would of gotten something for Brees when he was franchised last year.Edit: Just realised this post is from March.
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Tau837
Footballguy
While I agree, they still wasted two years having Rivers sitting the bench and while Brees performed they got nothing but a 1st round knockout in the postseason to show for it. They should of traded Brees back when they had a chance and started Rivers, at least they would of gotten something for Brees when he was franchised last year.Edit: Just realised this post is from March.
I said the same thing since day one.
I would take Ben over Eli. I like all three of them, though. The 2004 draft could be on par with the 1983 draft.
Banger
Footballguy
That's easy to say now but if they would have won the Superbowl with Brees they would have been genius's. I'm sure Rivers benefitted greatly by watching/learning which has enabled him to come out and play every bit as good/better than Rothlisberger/Manning who have played since their rookie years.
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
If that draft was a do-over right now, you see Ben going 1.01?May I ask why? Is it because he was the caretaker of an offense which could have won the Super Bowl with any of 20 other current NFL QBs under center? Other than the ring, I can't think of a single reason why he would be taken before Rivers or Manning. Ben was put into a perfect situation for a QB in Pittsburgh. A tough, veteran team which was ready to win. Meanwhile, San Diego and the Giants were really struggling.1. Ben Roethlisberger2. Roy Williams3. Eli4. J onathan Vilma5. Rivers6. Fitz7. Sean Taylor8. Dunta Robinson9. Lee Evans10. DeAngelo Hall11. Winslow12. Reggie Williams13. GalleryKind of tough but thats what I think.
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Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
The motorcycle accident and concussions notwithstanding?Can you elaborate as to why you'd rather have Ben than Eli?
I think he's a better QB than Eli. He had some terrible games this year after the motorcycle accident and spleendectomy. Then again after the concussion.But aside from those games, he's generally been a very efficient QB.Ben's career completion percentage is 64% compared to Eli's 54%. Ben's career YPA is 8.5 compared to Eli's 6.5. Ben's career passer rating is 92 compared to Eli's 73.5 -- and that includes Ben's horrible 2006. (Ben had a passer rating of 98 heading into this year.)I also think Ben is a better leader and tougher competitor -- although I think Eli is a very tough competitor as well.RAIDERNATION said:
There's no way to know how much Rivers benefitted from sitting two years. We can only posit that since he is playing so well this year, he possibly would of played well last year as there really isn't much of a correlation between QB performance and sitting for a season. However, Brees has shown every sign of being just as good if not better than Rivers even after his shoulder injury and the Chargers let Brees go for nothing. (Had they won a superbowl with Brees it just adds more fuel to the argument that Rivers was a wasted pick.)The Chargers gave up on Brees far too early and drafted a QB high. Imagine how much better the team would be with Roy, Robinson, Vilma, Evans, or most of those other guys drafted high that year + Brees. Or as I was arguing in my previous post, Rivers+picks in the past draft in exchange for Brees.Banger said:
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Good stats, but we are talking about who you'd rather have going forward.I keep getting the feeling that Ben has peaked. Eli, on the other hand, should get MUCH better.No?
I'm a big fan of Drew Brees both as a player and as a person. But I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who's watched a lot of both QBs to agree with that statement. Drew Brees is a very good leader, a smart quarterback, and an accurate passer -- and Rivers is as well. But Rivers has a big advantage in height and in arm strength. There have been a number of occasions this year where the Chargers completed a pass and everyone I was watching the game with agreed that Brees wouldn't have been able to make that pass.In any event, I like both guys a lot and I hope they meet in the near future in the Pro Bowl, if not the Super Bowl. But you won't find a Charger fan anywhere who would like to take Brees back and give Rivers to the Saints.
I don't think either one has peaked. They are the same age and should both continue to get better. But even if Ben has already peaked, I don't know if Eli will ever get to where Ben already is (when he is healthy).
I'll have to take your word for it as I haven't had the opportunity to watch a lot of Charger games this year, but other than in terms of INT's Rivers isn't playing all that statistically better than Brees did last year. Yes there are some mitigating circumstances such as the low number of passing attempts early in the season this year, but at least on the surface there doesn't seem to be a large difference between the two.FWIW, my argument isn't about Rivers vs. Brees, I think both are good QB's. My argument is Brees+someone else in the 2004 draft or Rivers plus some picks or players in exchange for Brees would be a much better team than the current. Any way you look at it, the Chargers would of been better off either not taking Rivers at all or trading away Brees a year and a half ago like many of us speculated than eventually letting Brees walk for nothing this past offseason.Luckily for the Chargers it turns out Rivers actually looks like he might be the real deal and good for them. (Always had a soft spot for the powder blue.)
I haven't bumped this thread in a few weeks, but in 2005, Brees had a YPA of 7.2, a passer rating of 89.2, a completion percentage of 64.4%, and a TD-INT ratio of 24-15. Rivers is currently at 7.6, 100.4, 66.4%, and 13-3.
Sure. Brees made himself very difficult to trade after his great 2004 season when he led the team to the playoffs. In hindsight, trading him at that point would have been the correct move. But he made it hard.(Brees didn't walk "for nothing," though. The Chargers will get a third-rounder for him.)
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Joe T
Footballguy
Doug B said:Well ... it was tommyGunZ, after all.
Tau837
Footballguy
I disagree with both Brees and Eli being ranked ahead of Rivers, but want to focus on Eli. Why would you rank Eli higher? The only thing I can see that he has going for him over Rivers is name/pedigree... same as on draft day. Rivers greatly outperformed Eli in college and deserved to be ranked higher on draft day... and there is every indication that Rivers will likewise outperform Eli in the NFL, though we only have a small sample size for Rivers so far.
The Man Who Met Andy Griffith
Footballguy
From what I recall, it roughly worked out to:Brees + Roy Williams or Larry Fitzgerald or DeAngelo Hallvs.Rivers + Merriman.You can't exclude the Merriman pick-up in the trade for Rivers.One thing everybody can agree on: the Chargers are damned lucky that that Accorsi bit on the trade.
Banger
Footballguy
I'd take door #2.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
The Chargers really exchanged two QBs for Rivers. So how has this ended up?
2004 Chargers draft Eli Manning, trade him for Rivers, go 12-4 with Drew Brees at QB. Brees has 27/7 TD/Int ratio.
2005: Chargers go 9-7, miss playoffs in losing last two games of season. Brees is injured diving for ball in potential game tieing goal line situation.
2006: Chargers go 14-2, Rivers 22/9/92.0, lose in first round of playoffs to Pats, Chargers can Schotty, release Brees.
2007: 11-5, 21/15/82.4 - Championship, Eli Manning
2008: 8-8, 34/11/105.5
2009: 13-3, 28/9/104.4, lose 1st round of playoffs - Championship, Drew Brees
2010: 9-7, 30/13/101.8, 38 sacks
2011: 8-8, 27/20/88.7, 30 sacks - Championship, Eli Manning
2012: 7-9, 26/15/88.6, 49 sacks
I think the debate today is obviously not Rivers vs Brees or Eli - SD lost that one face down in the dirt - but rather the possibilitiues if they had chosen Larry Fitzgerald, who ended up going 3rd to the Cards.
2004 Chargers draft Eli Manning, trade him for Rivers, go 12-4 with Drew Brees at QB. Brees has 27/7 TD/Int ratio.
2005: Chargers go 9-7, miss playoffs in losing last two games of season. Brees is injured diving for ball in potential game tieing goal line situation.
2006: Chargers go 14-2, Rivers 22/9/92.0, lose in first round of playoffs to Pats, Chargers can Schotty, release Brees.
2007: 11-5, 21/15/82.4 - Championship, Eli Manning
2008: 8-8, 34/11/105.5
2009: 13-3, 28/9/104.4, lose 1st round of playoffs - Championship, Drew Brees
2010: 9-7, 30/13/101.8, 38 sacks
2011: 8-8, 27/20/88.7, 30 sacks - Championship, Eli Manning
2012: 7-9, 26/15/88.6, 49 sacks
I think the debate today is obviously not Rivers vs Brees or Eli - SD lost that one face down in the dirt - but rather the possibilitiues if they had chosen Larry Fitzgerald, who ended up going 3rd to the Cards.
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Tau837
Footballguy
Why bump this thread from 2004/2006 to discuss it? There have been numerous discussions about this in other threads since then.
Your implication seems to be that the Chargers should have either drafted and kept Eli or drafted another player and kept Brees. But it's revisionist history. Eli made it clear he didn't want to be there; it made no sense to try to keep him. And Brees most likely never would have become the player we have seen in New Orleans had he stayed in San Diego. He never would have been paired with Sean Payton in that case.
The bottom line is that the trade for Rivers was a good one for San Diego. The rest of the team's decisions (coaching staffs, draft picks, roster management) have been pretty poor since that time, which is the primary reason they haven't had more success since that trade.
Your post also seems to imply that Brees was released after the 2006 season, which is incorrect.
While 2006 was probably mistaken for 2005, the Chargers didn't release Brees at all.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Ok, ok, I wrote this on the fly while writing something else so please forgive the imperfections....
The Saints signed Brees "in" 2006, before the season, (spring) so that's why I put that next to 2006.
No the Chargers did not "release" Brees they merely let him go and chose not to resign him after his contract ran out after the 2005 season.
As for bumping the thread, hey you know what I’m unapologetic, this is a great site and a great forum and the fact that you can look back to comments and thoughts when events first happened years ago and look at them now in retrospect is pretty cool to me. So thank you for the opportunity.
But it also shows how major decisions can affect, and even haunt, franchises for years and years.
Btw, I watched the Purdue Ohio State game from 2000 earlier today on the Big Ten Network, so I guess that's what got me going.
The Saints signed Brees "in" 2006, before the season, (spring) so that's why I put that next to 2006.
No the Chargers did not "release" Brees they merely let him go and chose not to resign him after his contract ran out after the 2005 season.
As for bumping the thread, hey you know what I’m unapologetic, this is a great site and a great forum and the fact that you can look back to comments and thoughts when events first happened years ago and look at them now in retrospect is pretty cool to me. So thank you for the opportunity.
But it also shows how major decisions can affect, and even haunt, franchises for years and years.
Btw, I watched the Purdue Ohio State game from 2000 earlier today on the Big Ten Network, so I guess that's what got me going.
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Sinrman
Footballguy
Can't blame the Chargers exactly for passing on Brees after he got injured. There were serious questions as to whether he might ever play again. Only two teams that I can remember (Saints, Dolphins)
even considered him.
But ever since they drafted him I have not been a fan of Rivers. He had some good years, certainly. But he, and the entire organization seems to be in a downward spiral.
even considered him.
But ever since they drafted him I have not been a fan of Rivers. He had some good years, certainly. But he, and the entire organization seems to be in a downward spiral.
Wise Old Owl
Footballguy
Putting the blame of the chargers recent failings entirely on Rivers is absurd. The management in San Diego has been some of the worst we have seen in a long time. With both terrible drafting and mismanaging veteran contracts coupled with the stale uninspired coaching this team has been lucky to stay relevant in a weak division.
I hate bumping this thread because it lends credence to people you may legitimately believe that the Chargers may be super bowl winners if they had Eli or Brees as their signal caller rather than Rivers. Brees averaged almost a thousand yards more every year since he left the chargers.
I hate bumping this thread because it lends credence to people you may legitimately believe that the Chargers may be super bowl winners if they had Eli or Brees as their signal caller rather than Rivers. Brees averaged almost a thousand yards more every year since he left the chargers.
The Claymaker
Footballguy
I think you are 100% correct on the bolded, but "many" football enthusiasts give way too much blame and accolades to the QB. How many people mention Marino as one of the greatest QB's of all time? I watched his entire career and there are not many I have seen play that I would say are better than Marino, but he never won it all, so Dan gets blacklisted from that conversation. Rivers will always get the lions share of the blame because he has been the face of the franchise and the leader, so whether absurd or not, it is how many fans see a teams failings.
A side note to Rivers to me is, he often looks like a whiney beotch, he is always making that "face" like he can't believe everyone else would do whatever they did wrong and make him throw that pick six. I honestly do think perception of a player (See Jay Cutler) also sways the way people think about him.
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