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Doing business inside a business. Golf related (1 Viewer)

IC FBGCav

Footballguy
The owner of my company also owns a pro shop and driving range. I do the year end stuff but not involved in the day to day. They have a pro coming in to teach lessons, build clubs, do grips........ect.

All sales will be rung through the pro shop and the pro will get a % of the work he does and get paid at the end of the month. If you were the pro would you set up a corporation or just get a 1099 at the end of the year?

 
I have a buddy who's one of golfdigests top 100 club fitter in America who did just this. If you'd like I can put you in touch with him to see how he worked it out.

PM or text GB

 
Single member LLC.....Schedule C....he still should be receiving a 1099 showing his nonemployee compensation.

 
What are the advantages to incorporating in this instance?
That is what I am trying to figure out. I don't want to be in the situation of helping the pro, but I am. I have a conflict of interest since I work for the owner of the pro shop. Just trying to give this guy the best advice possible.

If he incorporates there is about 1K in up front fees to get incorporated. But he seems more service oriented than building clubs so I am not sure. I want to give him two good solid options and then wash my hands of it.

 
Set up an s corp...legal zoom will cost him 100 or so. Advantage of s corp is that he can run expenses though netting against rev. At the end of the day it will probably break even leading very little tax expense.

 
The owner of my company also owns a pro shop and driving range. I do the year end stuff but not involved in the day to day. They have a pro coming in to teach lessons, build clubs, do grips........ect.

All sales will be rung through the pro shop and the pro will get a % of the work he does and get paid at the end of the month. If you were the pro would you set up a corporation or just get a 1099 at the end of the year?
Last time I ran the numbers the break even point was about $60k. Under $60k go LLC, over $60K incorporate. Over course big factors in that are your business deductions and if you are purchasing medical insurance. If those expenses are low, the threshold where forming a corporation will drop. In NC you would have to file two separate returns and the corporate return had to include a $400 check as I recall.

The best reason to incorporate is to pay yourself a small salary to dodge FICA and then collect corporate dividends. I guess if you were looking at retirement in the near future you might want that FICA number to be higher so you could more SS income.

 
LLC is a legal designation where the main benefit is liability protection.

For taxation, an LLC can be either a sole proprietorship (file schedule C within 1040 individual return), a partnership (the default with 2 or more owners) or an S-corp.

The S-corp is really only a benefit if you make a decent amount above what would be considered a "reasonable salary". Reasonable salary is an incredibly subjective thing, but it is what the definition is in the IRS code. Depending on the scope of the work, the expertise level required, the time commitment and revenues brought in, the reasonable salary can vary greatly.

The reason you have to beat the "reasonable salary" amount is because of how the payroll taxes are handled. As a sch C filer, you have to pay self employment tax on the entirety of the business income. That is an automatic 15.2% tax that isn't able to be reduced by any itemized personal deductions, exemptions and even some of the credits. That's because it is the replacement for what the employee and employer pay together for FICA taxes (SS & Medicare).

As a sole owner of an S-corp, you are required to pay a reasonable salary to yourself and that salary is treated just like an employee's salary with all of the taxes taken out and then the business has to pay in its portion of the payroll taxes as well. Now the salary/S-corp has one component that the sole proprietor does not and that is unemployment taxes, both federal and state...which depending on your state may not be insignificant.

So why would you want to go with an S-corp if you have to pay the extra for unemployment? Well because of what happens to the income in excess of your salary amount. That excess income is no longer subject to self employment tax, so therefore, you save 15.2% on everything over and above your salary. If you only make an extra 5k, it may not be worth it be paying the unemployment plus having to pay to have an extra tax return prepared. But if you make $20K above the "reasonable salary" amount, that means savings of about $3K (less the unemployment and tax prep costs).

As you continue to make more over and above the salary amount, that tax savings really adds up because the unemployment and tax prep costs aren't increasing in proportion. Once you get up to six figures of net business income on a schedule, you are stupid to not be running it as an S-corp and throwing away thousands of dollars.

The true cutoff point is really dependent on what that "reasonable salary" amount is for the industry and job in question. I've worked on company's where $24K was a legit reasonable salary and I've seen cases where it should be around $75K. It really is a wide range.

ETA: forgot to mention the extra expense of having to set up payroll tax accounts with the IRS and state and having to keep track of and remit those taxes with reports on a monthly/quarterly/annual basis. It is a bit of a headache and expense...there are cheap payroll services out there like intuit payroll, but you still have to log in and do it all yourself.

 
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LLC is a legal designation where the main benefit is liability protection.

For taxation, an LLC can be either a sole proprietorship (file schedule C within 1040 individual return), a partnership (the default with 2 or more owners) or an S-corp.

The S-corp is really only a benefit if you make a decent amount above what would be considered a "reasonable salary". Reasonable salary is an incredibly subjective thing, but it is what the definition is in the IRS code. Depending on the scope of the work, the expertise level required, the time commitment and revenues brought in, the reasonable salary can vary greatly.

The reason you have to beat the "reasonable salary" amount is because of how the payroll taxes are handled. As a sch C filer, you have to pay self employment tax on the entirety of the business income. That is an automatic 15.2% tax that isn't able to be reduced by any itemized personal deductions, exemptions and even some of the credits. That's because it is the replacement for what the employee and employer pay together for FICA taxes (SS & Medicare).

As a sole owner of an S-corp, you are required to pay a reasonable salary to yourself and that salary is treated just like an employee's salary with all of the taxes taken out and then the business has to pay in its portion of the payroll taxes as well. Now the salary/S-corp has one component that the sole proprietor does not and that is unemployment taxes, both federal and state...which depending on your state may not be insignificant.

So why would you want to go with an S-corp if you have to pay the extra for unemployment? Well because of what happens to the income in excess of your salary amount. That excess income is no longer subject to self employment tax, so therefore, you save 15.2% on everything over and above your salary. If you only make an extra 5k, it may not be worth it be paying the unemployment plus having to pay to have an extra tax return prepared. But if you make $20K above the "reasonable salary" amount, that means savings of about $3K (less the unemployment and tax prep costs).

As you continue to make more over and above the salary amount, that tax savings really adds up because the unemployment and tax prep costs aren't increasing in proportion. Once you get up to six figures of net business income on a schedule, you are stupid to not be running it as an S-corp and throwing away thousands of dollars.

The true cutoff point is really dependent on what that "reasonable salary" amount is for the industry and job in question. I've worked on company's where $24K was a legit reasonable salary and I've seen cases where it should be around $75K. It really is a wide range.

ETA: forgot to mention the extra expense of having to set up payroll tax accounts with the IRS and state and having to keep track of and remit those taxes with reports on a monthly/quarterly/annual basis. It is a bit of a headache and expense...there are cheap payroll services out there like intuit payroll, but you still have to log in and do it all yourself.
Excellent post Jayrod. Can you address the impact/deductibility of medical insurance in the two situations?

 
LLC is a legal designation where the main benefit is liability protection.

For taxation, an LLC can be either a sole proprietorship (file schedule C within 1040 individual return), a partnership (the default with 2 or more owners) or an S-corp.

The S-corp is really only a benefit if you make a decent amount above what would be considered a "reasonable salary". Reasonable salary is an incredibly subjective thing, but it is what the definition is in the IRS code. Depending on the scope of the work, the expertise level required, the time commitment and revenues brought in, the reasonable salary can vary greatly.

The reason you have to beat the "reasonable salary" amount is because of how the payroll taxes are handled. As a sch C filer, you have to pay self employment tax on the entirety of the business income. That is an automatic 15.2% tax that isn't able to be reduced by any itemized personal deductions, exemptions and even some of the credits. That's because it is the replacement for what the employee and employer pay together for FICA taxes (SS & Medicare).

As a sole owner of an S-corp, you are required to pay a reasonable salary to yourself and that salary is treated just like an employee's salary with all of the taxes taken out and then the business has to pay in its portion of the payroll taxes as well. Now the salary/S-corp has one component that the sole proprietor does not and that is unemployment taxes, both federal and state...which depending on your state may not be insignificant.

So why would you want to go with an S-corp if you have to pay the extra for unemployment? Well because of what happens to the income in excess of your salary amount. That excess income is no longer subject to self employment tax, so therefore, you save 15.2% on everything over and above your salary. If you only make an extra 5k, it may not be worth it be paying the unemployment plus having to pay to have an extra tax return prepared. But if you make $20K above the "reasonable salary" amount, that means savings of about $3K (less the unemployment and tax prep costs).

As you continue to make more over and above the salary amount, that tax savings really adds up because the unemployment and tax prep costs aren't increasing in proportion. Once you get up to six figures of net business income on a schedule, you are stupid to not be running it as an S-corp and throwing away thousands of dollars.

The true cutoff point is really dependent on what that "reasonable salary" amount is for the industry and job in question. I've worked on company's where $24K was a legit reasonable salary and I've seen cases where it should be around $75K. It really is a wide range.

ETA: forgot to mention the extra expense of having to set up payroll tax accounts with the IRS and state and having to keep track of and remit those taxes with reports on a monthly/quarterly/annual basis. It is a bit of a headache and expense...there are cheap payroll services out there like intuit payroll, but you still have to log in and do it all yourself.
Excellent post Jayrod. Can you address the impact/deductibility of medical insurance in the two situations?
As a sole proprietor/sch C, you can deduct your health insurance in the "adjustments to income" section on the front of the 1040 on the line 31 titled "self-employed health insurance deduction". This can include any premiums paid for the owner and immediate family. It does help reduce your income tax amount and is fully deductible up to the amount of the businesses net income. However, it does not reduce the amount of self-employment tax you have to pay.

As an S-corp shareholder/employee, health insurance is treated very differently. First of all, it HAS to be paid by the S-corp. You can actually pay it out of your own pocket, but there must be cash that changes hands from the business account back to the personal account showing it as a reimbursement for the premium amount.

How the expense is then handled is this: It is first applied to the owner as wages paid. However it is not subject to FICA taxes (so no 15.2%) OR unemployment. Then as the owner, you record the full amount of wages (including Health Ins) and then you get to deduct the the health insurance on the same line as the C-corp for "self-employed health insurance deduction".

So basically as an S-corp you actually save an additional 15.2% on health insurance and it is fully deductible (with some rare explanations you'll have to pay me to explain ;) ).

 
Most pros do 1099s for lessons.
An Scorp can receive 1099s
Thanks for all the infomation. I am going to sit down with him today to explain his options and your long post helps me emmensly. Then we will go from there and if need be I will contact icon's guy. First step is finding out is how much he plans on making and what his expenses are. But looking like a S Corp is the way to go.

:thumbup:

 
The owner of my company also owns a pro shop and driving range. I do the year end stuff but not involved in the day to day. They have a pro coming in to teach lessons, build clubs, do grips........ect.

All sales will be rung through the pro shop and the pro will get a % of the work he does and get paid at the end of the month. If you were the pro would you set up a corporation or just get a 1099 at the end of the year?
Single member LLC.....Schedule C....he still should be receiving a 1099 showing his nonemployee compensation.
What does Eminence recommend?

 
I have a buddy who's one of golfdigests top 100 club fitter in America who did just this. If you'd like I can put you in touch with him to see how he worked it out.

PM or text GB
The VS84??? (forgot the number)

 

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