Doing your own research (16 Viewers)

[Mister CIA]

What I'm hearing Joe say is that I shouldn't rely on experts because they're wrong sometimes and have a profit motive. I should do my own research.

I'm going to take his advice and let my FBG subscription lapse and rely on BigDEnergy from Reddit, who plays in an entirely different type of league than me with totally different scoring, for my fantasy football advice.

It's all luck.

 

[Joe Bryant]

What I'm hearing Joe say is that I shouldn't rely on experts because they're wrong sometimes and have a profit motive. I should do my own research.

That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying it’s good to question authorities and to do your own research when working with experts.

For how it relates to Footballguys, that’s absolutely what we want our subscribers to do.

 

[Joe Bryant]

What I'm hearing Joe say is that I shouldn't rely on experts because they're wrong sometimes and have a profit motive. I should do my own research.

That’s an interesting analogy you bring up. If I were to say I was triggered by a customer who wanted to do their own research and because of that I held a negative bias towards them, that would be something.

Obviously fantasy sports is not important compared to a person’s health or well being so it doesn’t really work on that level.

 

[Joe Bryant]

That's not ok. Why weren't those part of the initial testing? Thank God there's doctors willing to challenge the status quo indeed.

Stories like this are a huge black eye. Nobody should wonder why people would want to be a little skeptical and take a look at all the options.

This may not be your local PCP intentionally misleading anyone, but nobody can wonder why trust isn't easy to come by and the stakes are pretty high when it's your life in someone else's hands.

You're right that it wasn't ok and it's why Purdue should be paying dearly if not completely bankrupted by the whole thing. The "why" and "how" behind it is pretty political and litigious. This thread is already off the rails from the original intent with snark, emotion and quipping. I'm not sure going into it would be allowed by a person like myself. We can take it to PMs if you like. It should also be pointed out that this event with Purdue is clearly an exception and not the rule. That's not making an excuse for them. It's to point out this sort of thing doesn't happen often at all.

Yeah, this thread took a turn from conversation and into train wreck, emotions are running hot. We're getting away from original intent going down this fork too. A link to a previous thread on opioids was provided earlier and I'll take a look when i get a chance.

I understand what you're saying and that forces stronger than data were at play. I think I've said all i have on this and the thread overall. This one seems to have run its course.

Agreed, this one turned into a train wreck. I apologize for my role in helping with that and I could’ve used softer and less challenging words.

Being able to question authority is something I feel strongly about. And I shared honestly.

And I felt there were some remarkable other opinions expressed. I think words matter, and with a written form, they are what we have to work with here. It’s why I always ask for a link to the quote when people claim a poster does this or that.

It seems people can sometimes quickly jump to assume everything medical disconnected to vaccines. I don’t think that at all. My main questions are about the medical industrial complex as a whole. And the roles and factors from the different components.

And mostly bottom line, my concern of how it seems we have as Americans a fairly low standard of overall health.

That feels like a serious problem to me. And pulling back to the big picture and asking questions of how we got here and what can be done to improve seems important.

I would hope everyone understands that’s not political and I assume the health of our population is important to most people.

Good timing as I have my follow up appointment for my annual physical today with my MD.

To add a thought to this, as I said, my main concern is overall health. Obviously the medical industrial complex is a huge factor, but one would also have to include the food industry in that discussion as well.

 

[djmich]

Geez, it's laughably sad to see some of the grievances that grown children have developed over time on this message board and how they are revealed.

 

[Peggy]

Admittedly, I usually cringe when people address their medical care in this manner. "Doing my own research" is on the short list of trigger phrases which bias me against a patient, along with "I know my own body" and "everybody's different", as these statements usually precede noncompliance with the suggested plan. I realize that's not ideal, and the link offers advice to communicate more effectively:

But you also understand why people ask questions, right?

I don't know you, of course, so I'm not saying you do this, but I know some people in the medical field who become indignant if the lowly patient dares to question even the smallest things as the medical person hands down the omniscient answers.

Medicine is business. A huge business. I do find it interesting how some people will blindly ignore the financial motivations that drive the business and somehow assume there's some sort of magical altruism to the business of healthcare, where the best interests of the customer are the only factor and the best interests of the company are ignored.

Where is the connection between doing my own research and medicine is a business?

They're connected as they relate to the person/customer/patient.

And they don't necessarily have the same motivation. Hopefully they do. But not necessarily.

And I fully understand some people have much more faith that zillion dollar for profit corporations will operate with magical altruism than I do.

The fact that merely daring to ask questions about a treatment or procedure can be seen as defiant or a negative by some is incredibly telling.

No one here is doing the bolded, and not really the point of this discussion imo.

Disagree. I think when a physician is bold enough to admit in public,

"Admittedly, I usually cringe when people address their medical care in this manner. "Doing my own research" is on the short list of trigger phrases which bias me against a patient, along with "I know my own body" and "everybody's different", as these statements usually precede noncompliance with the suggested plan. I realize that's not ideal, and the link offers advice to communicate more effectively:"

that's exactly the bolded of "merely daring to ask questions about a treatment or procedure can be seen as defiant or a negative"

Not sure what you mean about it not being the point of the discussion. It was literally in the original post.

We’ll have to agree to disagree then.

Admitting I find certain characteristics of the “I’m doing my own research” crowd off putting is hardly the same as stifling questions, or shared decision making.

We’ll definitely disagree then. All good. I don’t see finding “certain characteristics of the “I’m doing my own research” crowd off putting” The same as:

“Doing my own research" is on the short list of trigger phrases which bias me against a patient,”

I still am wondering how holding that bias against the patient fits with the Hippocratic Oath.

It's not adding up. If you feel that way you should tell the patient to find another doctor.

But for the life of me I can't think of an issue that's relevant today other than vaccinations.

"Don't expect physicians to stray from standards"

Red herring? Who is asking for this? Other than the opioid crisis that you can argue doctors are complicite in what's being asked of them?

Doing your own research to not take a vaccine, eating red meat or drinking yourself to death isn't asking anything from them. It's just not following "doctors orders" which I say again, my doctor doesn't give the orders, he works for me.

Happens all the time, when patients ask for tests that aren't indicated, unnecessary antibiotics, alternate vaccine schedules, etc. These problems are compounded by doctor shopping.

BINGO!

The thinly veild political thread to call anti-vaxxers dumb. (nobody cares about extra tests and antibiotics)

They aren't asking you to not take a shot. That would fall under not following "doctor’s orders". You're not the boss.

These are much bigger issues in my world. I certainly do care, even if you want to derail this into a political thread.

Extra Testing

Extra Antibiotics

No to a Vaccine

One of those things is not like the others. The others are overly cautious in being healthy and you're not going to convince anyone that that's what gives you a negative bias towards patients. Every drug commercial ever: "Ask your doctor if _______ might be right for you!" And youre upset about them asking about antibiotics...no. Look you don't respect people who are skeptical of vaccines, OK, don't take them on as clients. Problem solved. Telling everyone not to think for themselves because of those people is wrong.

 

[Peggy]

What I'm hearing Joe say is that I shouldn't rely on experts because they're wrong sometimes and have a profit motive. I should do my own research.

I'm going to take his advice and let my FBG subscription lapse and rely on BigDEnergy from Reddit, who plays in an entirely different type of league than me with totally different scoring, for my fantasy football advice.

I'd be shocked if Joe started a thread saying to set your lineup based on what LineupDominator said and nothing else, don't even try to figure it out yourself you're not smart enough. And he's biased towards clients who set it any other way.

That's why this thread is so weird.

 

[Mister CIA]

That's not ok. Why weren't those part of the initial testing? Thank God there's doctors willing to challenge the status quo indeed.

Stories like this are a huge black eye. Nobody should wonder why people would want to be a little skeptical and take a look at all the options.

This may not be your local PCP intentionally misleading anyone, but nobody can wonder why trust isn't easy to come by and the stakes are pretty high when it's your life in someone else's hands.

You're right that it wasn't ok and it's why Purdue should be paying dearly if not completely bankrupted by the whole thing. The "why" and "how" behind it is pretty political and litigious. This thread is already off the rails from the original intent with snark, emotion and quipping. I'm not sure going into it would be allowed by a person like myself. We can take it to PMs if you like. It should also be pointed out that this event with Purdue is clearly an exception and not the rule. That's not making an excuse for them. It's to point out this sort of thing doesn't happen often at all.

Yeah, this thread took a turn from conversation and into train wreck, emotions are running hot. We're getting away from original intent going down this fork too. A link to a previous thread on opioids was provided earlier and I'll take a look when i get a chance.

I understand what you're saying and that forces stronger than data were at play. I think I've said all i have on this and the thread overall. This one seems to have run its course.

Agreed, this one turned into a train wreck. I apologize for my role in helping with that and I could’ve used softer and less challenging words.

Being able to question authority is something I feel strongly about. And I shared honestly.

And I felt there were some remarkable other opinions expressed. I think words matter, and with a written form, they are what we have to work with here. It’s why I always ask for a link to the quote when people claim a poster does this or that.

It seems people can sometimes quickly jump to assume everything medical disconnected to vaccines. I don’t think that at all. My main questions are about the medical industrial complex as a whole. And the roles and factors from the different components.

And mostly bottom line, my concern of how it seems we have as Americans a fairly low standard of overall health.

That feels like a serious problem to me. And pulling back to the big picture and asking questions of how we got here and what can be done to improve seems important.

I would hope everyone understands that’s not political and I assume the health of our population is important to most people.

Good timing as I have my follow up appointment for my annual physical today with my MD.

To add a thought to this, as I said, my main concern is overall health. Obviously the medical industrial complex is a huge factor, but one would also have to include the food industry in that discussion as well.

I was going to ignore this, and perhaps I should, but the MEDICAL INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX is triple-stitched to the INDUSTRIAL POLICTICAL COMPLEX (you know this, I know) - which we can't discuss here. It leads to a tilted conversation (second time I've used that expression in this thread) where you get to get all your shots in, and then all the rejoinders AND persuasive opinions land on the cutting room floor.

It's your board, but you're dampening the spirit around here.

 

[DA RAIDERS]

That's not ok. Why weren't those part of the initial testing? Thank God there's doctors willing to challenge the status quo indeed.

Stories like this are a huge black eye. Nobody should wonder why people would want to be a little skeptical and take a look at all the options.

This may not be your local PCP intentionally misleading anyone, but nobody can wonder why trust isn't easy to come by and the stakes are pretty high when it's your life in someone else's hands.

You're right that it wasn't ok and it's why Purdue should be paying dearly if not completely bankrupted by the whole thing. The "why" and "how" behind it is pretty political and litigious. This thread is already off the rails from the original intent with snark, emotion and quipping. I'm not sure going into it would be allowed by a person like myself. We can take it to PMs if you like. It should also be pointed out that this event with Purdue is clearly an exception and not the rule. That's not making an excuse for them. It's to point out this sort of thing doesn't happen often at all.

Yeah, this thread took a turn from conversation and into train wreck, emotions are running hot. We're getting away from original intent going down this fork too. A link to a previous thread on opioids was provided earlier and I'll take a look when i get a chance.

I understand what you're saying and that forces stronger than data were at play. I think I've said all i have on this and the thread overall. This one seems to have run its course.

Agreed, this one turned into a train wreck. I apologize for my role in helping with that and I could’ve used softer and less challenging words.

Being able to question authority is something I feel strongly about. And I shared honestly.

And I felt there were some remarkable other opinions expressed. I think words matter, and with a written form, they are what we have to work with here. It’s why I always ask for a link to the quote when people claim a poster does this or that.

It seems people can sometimes quickly jump to assume everything medical disconnected to vaccines. I don’t think that at all. My main questions are about the medical industrial complex as a whole. And the roles and factors from the different components.

And mostly bottom line, my concern of how it seems we have as Americans a fairly low standard of overall health.

That feels like a serious problem to me. And pulling back to the big picture and asking questions of how we got here and what can be done to improve seems important.

I would hope everyone understands that’s not political and I assume the health of our population is important to most people.

Good timing as I have my follow up appointment for my annual physical today with my MD.

Make sure you ask a Lot of questions…

From a distance it seems you think the the medical industry as a whole is corrupt for profit monolith out to chisel every dollar from us (you’re not wrong). that drs are the complicit face of it. And they don’t want us plebes questioning the man behind the curtain. The drs in thread agreed with the monolith part, but not with the don’t question the man behind the curtain part. Is it annoying to have the masses questioning one’s expertise, all the time? Sure is. I have people tell me how to do my job all the time.

A mechanic I went to had a sign:
labor $50/hr.
watching the labor $100/hr
Asking questions while watching $250/hr

Apples and oranges. But similar. How about about everyday you had to have a face to face conversations with us knobs and a lot of us asked/told you to lose the language filter/let us imbed pics/and bring back politics. And the only logic behind our request was they do it elsewhere. Or I’ve seen it. So and so board does it. It gets old quick.

 

[Sparky Polastri]

I think it's time to go back and read the OP of this thread and understand what his actual point is/was. Continuing down the path this thread was turned in to seems unproductive. When we are at the point where we are comparing laypeople doing research on fantasy football teams to laypeople doing research on things like autoimmune disease and/or neurological disease we need to reset or just shut the whole thing down.

 

[uwillbsoon]

What I'm hearing Joe say is that I shouldn't rely on experts because they're wrong sometimes and have a profit motive. I should do my own research.

I'm going to take his advice and let my FBG subscription lapse and rely on BigDEnergy from Reddit, who plays in an entirely different type of league than me with totally different scoring, for my fantasy football advice.

I'd be shocked if Joe started a thread saying to set your lineup based on what LineupDominator said and nothing else, don't even try to figure it out yourself you're not smart enough. And he's biased towards clients who set it any other way.

That's why this thread is so weird.

You and I obviously read very different things into this thread.

I thought this thread was about sources. Others have taken it very different places.

My point is should I rely more on some rando on Reddit than Joe's platform that's been developed over decades and hires some of the best in the business? Sure, I can take BigDEnergy's posts into consideration, but should they be weighed equally?

My impression was the doctors in here were expressing frustration with patients taking the advice of non-experts over experts. That's the gist of their complaint.

The do your own research guys have taken it to completely other places and placed that position on the doctors. Which, as they've stated repeatedly to ever more snarky responses, is not what they're saying.

 

[Tau837]

Given that prescribing opioids is always going to carry non-zero risk, where do you think the line is on balancing that risk in an acceptable manner with treating pain?

Again, I’m no expert, but it feels to me like the current state we’re in where the balance has shifted to be way more cautious and careful with the addiction is about right.

IMO we have shifted much too far into restricting opiod prescribingto the point that our policies do substantial harm to pain patients and pain practitioners. This isn't really the thread for that discussion, but, if you are interested, I probably linked 80+ articles/studies over the past 10 years in this thread: The Opiate and Heroin Epidemic in America.

 

[Mister CIA]

Is it annoying to have the masses questioning one’s expertise, all the time? Sure is. I have people tell me how to do my job all the time.

I hear it all the time! I would have double-bagged that.

 

[uwillbsoon]

What I'm hearing Joe say is that I shouldn't rely on experts because they're wrong sometimes and have a profit motive. I should do my own research.

That’s an interesting analogy you bring up. If I were to say I was triggered by a customer who wanted to do their own research and because of that I held a negative bias towards them, that would be something.

Obviously fantasy sports is not important compared to a person’s health or well being so it doesn’t really work on that level.

Is that what was said? I missed that. Apologize, I didn't read the whole thread

So if you lost a customer to a reddit poster who had a new theory that you should draft practice squad running backs before first string running backs, you'd only think pure thoughts about that customer? And you wouldn't try to convince him that that way leads to folly and sorrow?

You're a better man than me.

 

[Jayrod]

I've just read some of this thread for the first time and think it is a very pertinent and important discussion.

Some thoughts:

• Medicine is vast and the human body is VERY difficult to understand. DNA and history effects a lot and therefore every human has different issues and treatment needs. NO DOCTOR can know or understand it all.
• Doctors are only as knowledgeable as the education they've been given. If a doctor is given bad information and treats based on that they will have bad outcomes. Big Pharma and the medical-industrial complex do a lot of the educating of physicians. If they are being misled, how can they know? Just because a doctor utilizes their superior mental capacity and is accessing the information they've been given correctly, doesn't mean that information is 100% accurate and isn't compromised by someone along the line.
• I also believe that doctors are a moral cross-section of society. Meaning that a certain % of them are actually either lazy or bad actors. We are suspicious of nearly every other profession of authority in our lives (police, teachers, politicians, sports officials, etc.) so it makes sense that people are suspicious of doctors' motives as well.
• The internet is a vast source of knowledge but also a vast source of misinformation. Trusting "your own research" can be very dangerous. I had a cousin that was recommended a Whipple procedure for cancer. She refused it and died 6 months later because of "doing her own research" and "listening to her body". Her sister (a literal genius whose husband is an anesthesiologist) said she knew that she would die after she told her she refused the procedure. I also had an obese uncle die of COVID in 2020 because he refused the vaccine after "doing his own research". They both may have died anyway even if they got the treatments prescribed by doctors, but I think their chances would have been much higher had they listened to the professionals.
• I think AI is probably the best fix for all of this. Honestly, medical work should be our #1 use of AI. I guarantee you that a well designed AI, with access to all of the available health knowledge and research to access, could out diagnose & treat any physician. Greed is the only reason this isn't the primary focus of AI, IMO.

That's a varied bunch of thoughts and has likely all been covered by now, but I wanted to chime in anyway (because I'm selfish like that, I guess).

 

[BassNBrew]

Interestingly enough my doctor wanted to start me on one of the fat drugs which trigger some questions from me. Two interesting things came up.

1. First of all he stressed that he received no compensation or kickbacks from anyone for prescribing these. I didn't even crack that door so it was interesting he said that out of nowhere.

2. Secondly, when I said why don't we try you telling me that I'm a fatass and to have some self control and stop being lazy and exercise he kind of laughed. We agreed to revisit the subject in 3 months.

 

[tommyGunZ]

What I'm hearing Joe say is that I shouldn't rely on experts because they're wrong sometimes and have a profit motive. I should do my own research.

I'm going to take his advice and let my FBG subscription lapse and rely on BigDEnergy from Reddit, who plays in an entirely different type of league than me with totally different scoring, for my fantasy football advice.

I'd be shocked if Joe started a thread saying to set your lineup based on what LineupDominator said and nothing else, don't even try to figure it out yourself you're not smart enough. And he's biased towards clients who set it any other way.

That's why this thread is so weird.

This is way, way oversimplistic….but I’ll bite and say that over the long run, the average fantasy football player would be FAR better off setting their lineup strictly by the LineupDominator as opposed to their “gut”. I doubt the results would even be close.

Now modify the complexity of the Dominator by 1000x, and then consider whether you think the average layperson’s internet “research” outweighs the research, experience, and expertise that the physician possesses.

Asking questions is fine, and part of the Dr/Patient relationship. Suggesting to your Dr that you have a different diagnosis/plan because you “did your own research” is not only extremely arrogant, it’s also an absurd strategy if wellness is the goal.

 

[Desert_Power]

My simplistic take is that you should do your own research as feasible. Challenging experts and authority is needed and the profit motive that many have does have an influence.

Of course, the rub is that the best challenge to experts usually comes from other experts. If you're getting a big procedure done, seek a second opinion for another doctor. Consult government or university research. If you think Joe has over-ranked somebody, check Sigmund's ranks or another platform entirely.

Problem is that social media generates a whole lot of noise. Even the old Player Spotlights had some of that in these forms and the modern day social media is even worse with hot-takes and uniformed challenges.

 

[Jayrod]

I think what source to believe and who to trust is the most difficult decision we face in today's "hyper-informed" society. Knowing what is true or real and what isn't has never been more challenging. Makes sense that it has trickled into the healthcare sphere.

 

[Mitchie]

Is it annoying to have the masses questioning one’s expertise, all the time? Sure is. I have people tell me how to do my job all the time.

I hear it all the time! I would have double-bagged that.

Can't tell you how may times I heard that last time I was in Haiti. I should've listened.

 

[culdeus]

I am late here but I feel like Reddit is being eaten up by people plugging comments into gpts and asking for a retort to it. The tone of comments there are just different now.

 

[djmich]

What I'm hearing Joe say is that I shouldn't rely on experts because they're wrong sometimes and have a profit motive. I should do my own research.

I'm going to take his advice and let my FBG subscription lapse and rely on BigDEnergy from Reddit, who plays in an entirely different type of league than me with totally different scoring, for my fantasy football advice.

I'd be shocked if Joe started a thread saying to set your lineup based on what LineupDominator said and nothing else, don't even try to figure it out yourself you're not smart enough. And he's biased towards clients who set it any other way.

That's why this thread is so weird.

This is way, way oversimplistic….but I’ll bite and say that over the long run, the average fantasy football player would be FAR better off setting their lineup strictly by the LineupDominator as opposed to their “gut”. I doubt the results would even be close.

Now modify the complexity of the Dominator by 1000x, and then consider whether you think the average layperson’s internet “research” outweighs the research, experience, and expertise that the physician possesses.

Asking questions is fine, and part of the Dr/Patient relationship. Suggesting to your Dr that you have a different diagnosis/plan because you “did your own research” is not only extremely arrogant, it’s also an absurd strategy if wellness is the goal.

Who said anything about going with their gut. The big disconnect in this conversation is people who believe doing your own research actually entails researching and validating sources, and discussing what you find with your doctor, vs those who associate it with I'll just do whatever else pops into my mind or what fartdoctor22 on Redditt proposes.

 

[dgreen]

I think what source to believe and who to trust is the most difficult decision we face in today's "hyper-informed" society. Knowing what is true or real and what isn't has never been more challenging. Makes sense that it has trickled into the healthcare sphere.

I wonder if there's been a degradation of trust, in general, in our society. I think I've always had a mistrust of auto mechanics, and I don't really know why. On the flip side, I've always trusted medical professionals. If my internet research leads me to diagnose myself with X and then a doctor says I have Y, I just shrug off the difference and assume the doctor is right. If that happens with my car, I get the fix they suggest but grumble internally, "Oh, big shock that you say it is Y when Y is more expensive than X. And, look at that, you also identified Z needs to be fixed!" Then I look for a different mechanic the next time I need something.

 

[Peggy]

What I'm hearing Joe say is that I shouldn't rely on experts because they're wrong sometimes and have a profit motive. I should do my own research.

I'm going to take his advice and let my FBG subscription lapse and rely on BigDEnergy from Reddit, who plays in an entirely different type of league than me with totally different scoring, for my fantasy football advice.

I'd be shocked if Joe started a thread saying to set your lineup based on what LineupDominator said and nothing else, don't even try to figure it out yourself you're not smart enough. And he's biased towards clients who set it any other way.

That's why this thread is so weird.

This is way, way oversimplistic….but I’ll bite and say that over the long run, the average fantasy football player would be FAR better off setting their lineup strictly by the LineupDominator as opposed to their “gut”. I doubt the results would even be close.

Now modify the complexity of the Dominator by 1000x, and then consider whether you think the average layperson’s internet “research” outweighs the research, experience, and expertise that the physician possesses.

Asking questions is fine, and part of the Dr/Patient relationship. Suggesting to your Dr that you have a different diagnosis/plan because you “did your own research” is not only extremely arrogant, it’s also an absurd strategy if wellness is the goal.

I already gave you a real life example that you ignored. I guess that in addition to being an above average FF player I'm also in that very small minority that knows their wife's body after 25 years than some doctor that's spent a total of a few hours with her.

But it's your turn - what are these "alternate diagnosis " the doctors are complaining about? So far all I've gotten is Vaccines. Vaccine deniers are a small percentage and telling everyone to stop thinking for themselves because you're biased against those people us dumb.

 

[Mister CIA]

I think what source to believe and who to trust is the most difficult decision we face in today's "hyper-informed" society. Knowing what is true or real and what isn't has never been more challenging. Makes sense that it has trickled into the healthcare sphere.

I wonder if there's been a degradation of trust, in general, in our society. I think I've always had a mistrust of auto mechanics, and I don't really know why. On the flip side, I've always trusted medical professionals. If my internet research leads me to diagnose myself with X and then a doctor says I have Y, I just shrug off the difference and assume the doctor is right. If that happens with my car, I get the fix they suggest but grumble internally, "Oh, big shock that you say it is Y when Y is more expensive than X. And, look at that, you also identified Z needs to be fixed!" Then I look for a different mechanic the next time I need something.

There's been a concerted effort to undermine our institutions, but it's a political topic.

 

[Deamon]

Sorry to hear my opinion of including physicians as part of the industrial medical complex offends you. That’s not passive aggressive or posting better. And certainly not being called out. That’s my opinion and my viewpoint.

Having an opinion is fine. Repeatedly posting snarky responses like "but apparently that's how it works" and "but the research" aren't and you should stop pretending you aren't doing something that would get other people a timeout.

bang on here

That's not ok. Why weren't those part of the initial testing? Thank God there's doctors willing to challenge the status quo indeed.

Stories like this are a huge black eye. Nobody should wonder why people would want to be a little skeptical and take a look at all the options.

This may not be your local PCP intentionally misleading anyone, but nobody can wonder why trust isn't easy to come by and the stakes are pretty high when it's your life in someone else's hands.

You're right that it wasn't ok and it's why Purdue should be paying dearly if not completely bankrupted by the whole thing. The "why" and "how" behind it is pretty political and litigious. This thread is already off the rails from the original intent with snark, emotion and quipping. I'm not sure going into it would be allowed by a person like myself. We can take it to PMs if you like. It should also be pointed out that this event with Purdue is clearly an exception and not the rule. That's not making an excuse for them. It's to point out this sort of thing doesn't happen often at all.

Yeah, this thread took a turn from conversation and into train wreck, emotions are running hot. We're getting away from original intent going down this fork too. A link to a previous thread on opioids was provided earlier and I'll take a look when i get a chance.

I understand what you're saying and that forces stronger than data were at play. I think I've said all i have on this and the thread overall. This one seems to have run its course.

Agreed, this one turned into a train wreck. I apologize for my role in helping with that and I could’ve used softer and less challenging words.

Being able to question authority is something I feel strongly about. And I shared honestly.

And I felt there were some remarkable other opinions expressed. I think words matter, and with a written form, they are what we have to work with here. It’s why I always ask for a link to the quote when people claim a poster does this or that.

It seems people can sometimes quickly jump to assume everything medical disconnected to vaccines. I don’t think that at all. My main questions are about the medical industrial complex as a whole. And the roles and factors from the different components.

And mostly bottom line, my concern of how it seems we have as Americans a fairly low standard of overall health.

That feels like a serious problem to me. And pulling back to the big picture and asking questions of how we got here and what can be done to improve seems important.

I would hope everyone understands that’s not political and I assume the health of our population is important to most people.

Good timing as I have my follow up appointment for my annual physical today with my MD.

To add a thought to this, as I said, my main concern is overall health. Obviously the medical industrial complex is a huge factor, but one would also have to include the food industry in that discussion as well.

I was going to ignore this, and perhaps I should, but the MEDICAL INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX is triple-stitched to the INDUSTRIAL POLICTICAL COMPLEX (you know this, I know) - which we can't discuss here. It leads to a tilted conversation (second time I've used that expression in this thread) where you get to get all your shots in, and then all the rejoinders AND persuasive opinions land on the cutting room floor.

It's your board, but you're dampening the spirit around here.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Sorry to hear my opinion of including physicians as part of the industrial medical complex offends you. That’s not passive aggressive or posting better. And certainly not being called out. That’s my opinion and my viewpoint.

Having an opinion is fine. Repeatedly posting snarky responses like "but apparently that's how it works" and "but the research" aren't and you should stop pretending you aren't doing something that would get other people a timeout.

A poster commented about how the original data was in error for opiod addiction.

I said, "As someone who lost a little brother to opioid-related addiction, that's a real comfort."

That poster replied, "Once it was proven yes. That's how it works "

That was a remarkable thing for a poster to say to someone lamenting the death of their brother. But noting it in another thread would never get a person a timeout. That's pretending.

 

[Joe Bryant]

That's not ok. Why weren't those part of the initial testing? Thank God there's doctors willing to challenge the status quo indeed.

Stories like this are a huge black eye. Nobody should wonder why people would want to be a little skeptical and take a look at all the options.

This may not be your local PCP intentionally misleading anyone, but nobody can wonder why trust isn't easy to come by and the stakes are pretty high when it's your life in someone else's hands.

You're right that it wasn't ok and it's why Purdue should be paying dearly if not completely bankrupted by the whole thing. The "why" and "how" behind it is pretty political and litigious. This thread is already off the rails from the original intent with snark, emotion and quipping. I'm not sure going into it would be allowed by a person like myself. We can take it to PMs if you like. It should also be pointed out that this event with Purdue is clearly an exception and not the rule. That's not making an excuse for them. It's to point out this sort of thing doesn't happen often at all.

Yeah, this thread took a turn from conversation and into train wreck, emotions are running hot. We're getting away from original intent going down this fork too. A link to a previous thread on opioids was provided earlier and I'll take a look when i get a chance.

I understand what you're saying and that forces stronger than data were at play. I think I've said all i have on this and the thread overall. This one seems to have run its course.

Agreed, this one turned into a train wreck. I apologize for my role in helping with that and I could’ve used softer and less challenging words.

Being able to question authority is something I feel strongly about. And I shared honestly.

And I felt there were some remarkable other opinions expressed. I think words matter, and with a written form, they are what we have to work with here. It’s why I always ask for a link to the quote when people claim a poster does this or that.

It seems people can sometimes quickly jump to assume everything medical disconnected to vaccines. I don’t think that at all. My main questions are about the medical industrial complex as a whole. And the roles and factors from the different components.

And mostly bottom line, my concern of how it seems we have as Americans a fairly low standard of overall health.

That feels like a serious problem to me. And pulling back to the big picture and asking questions of how we got here and what can be done to improve seems important.

I would hope everyone understands that’s not political and I assume the health of our population is important to most people.

Good timing as I have my follow up appointment for my annual physical today with my MD.

Make sure you ask a Lot of questions…

From a distance it seems you think the the medical industry as a whole is corrupt for profit monolith out to chisel every dollar from us (you’re not wrong). that drs are the complicit face of it. And they don’t want us plebes questioning the man behind the curtain. The drs in thread agreed with the monolith part, but not with the don’t question the man behind the curtain part. Is it annoying to have the masses questioning one’s expertise, all the time? Sure is. I have people tell me how to do my job all the time.

A mechanic I went to had a sign:
labor $50/hr.
watching the labor $100/hr
Asking questions while watching $250/hr

Apples and oranges. But similar. How about about everyday you had to have a face to face conversations with us knobs and a lot of us asked/told you to lose the language filter/let us imbed pics/and bring back politics. And the only logic behind our request was they do it elsewhere. Or I’ve seen it. So and so board does it. It gets old quick.

I hear you. It's frustrating for lay people to offer insight on how to do your job. I get that every single day at Footballguys. Lots of people likely get the same. I'm sure you do.

Where this was remarkable was the person in the opening thread making the open confession that they held a bias against people who wanted to do their own research. I know they since backed off that statement after being challenged. But that seemed wild to me for someone who says they're a medical professional to openly admit.

And maybe it shouldn't. Maybe it should be like the mechanic who doesn't want his customers checking information anywhere else but him. But it started off with that opening shot.

As someone who's admittedly sensitive to it after having lost a little brother to opioid addiction, it's a topic I care about.

And for my doctor visit this morning. I did ask lots of questions. Some we even looked up on the internet on his laptop.

 

[Joe Bryant]

What I'm hearing Joe say is that I shouldn't rely on experts because they're wrong sometimes and have a profit motive. I should do my own research.

That’s an interesting analogy you bring up. If I were to say I was triggered by a customer who wanted to do their own research and because of that I held a negative bias towards them, that would be something.

Obviously fantasy sports is not important compared to a person’s health or well being so it doesn’t really work on that level.

Is that what was said? I missed that. Apologize, I didn't read the whole thread

So if you lost a customer to a reddit poster who had a new theory that you should draft practice squad running backs before first string running backs, you'd only think pure thoughts about that customer? And you wouldn't try to convince him that that way leads to folly and sorrow?

You're a better man than me.

No worries GB. No better man than you I'm sure.

It comes up nearly every day that people don't need an "expert" service like Footballguys. In the summer multiple times every day. It's literally our most common objection. I'm sure with Chat GPT, it'll be way more. We simply let them know what we offer and how we can help. Then they make the decision as to whether we're worth the cost.

 

[Nipsey]

What I'm hearing Joe say is that I shouldn't rely on experts because they're wrong sometimes and have a profit motive. I should do my own research.

I'm going to take his advice and let my FBG subscription lapse and rely on BigDEnergy from Reddit, who plays in an entirely different type of league than me with totally different scoring, for my fantasy football advice.

I'd be shocked if Joe started a thread saying to set your lineup based on what LineupDominator said and nothing else, don't even try to figure it out yourself you're not smart enough. And he's biased towards clients who set it any other way.

That's why this thread is so weird.

This is way, way oversimplistic….but I’ll bite and say that over the long run, the average fantasy football player would be FAR better off setting their lineup strictly by the LineupDominator as opposed to their “gut”. I doubt the results would even be close.

Now modify the complexity of the Dominator by 1000x, and then consider whether you think the average layperson’s internet “research” outweighs the research, experience, and expertise that the physician possesses.

Asking questions is fine, and part of the Dr/Patient relationship. Suggesting to your Dr that you have a different diagnosis/plan because you “did your own research” is not only extremely arrogant, it’s also an absurd strategy if wellness is the goal.

If we’re talking about someone who watches Alex Jones all day and refuses antibiotics because they’re taking Infowars iodine supplements, I get it. That’s like telling a mechanic not to use motor oil because a YouTube video said prune juice works better. Totally nuts. Same with parents who skip necessary vaccines for their kids because of something they saw on Facebook. I understand the frustration. But where exactly is the line between those people and someone like me? How far is that from someone who wants to understand their condition or what they’re being prescribed, and “does their own research”? Im the type who reads labels at the supermarket. If I’m prescribed a drug I’ve never taken I’m going to read the pamphlet. I’m going to ask friends and family. I'm going to digest information from what i believe to be reliable sources. That’s “doing my own research.” Where’s the line between that and being dismissed and vented about on a fantasy football message board?

A few years ago, I was told I needed a scan. I didn’t think it was necessary but the doctor insisted so I went. When I got there, they said it would be with contrast. I remembered reading somehting about lawsuits involving contrast dye, and since I already didn’t think the scan was needed and I'm sensitive to certain meds, that made me even more hesitant. I told the radiologist I preferred to skip the dye. They brushed it off and pressured me, saying the doctor wanted it and I should go ahead. "I've done a thousand of these and nobody has ever has a problem." So what was I supposed to do? I was getting a scan I didn’t believe I needed, and now being pushed to inject something I wasn’t comfortable with. Eventually I gave in. Nothing ended up happening but that’s not the point. The point is there’s a lot of space between the conspiracy crowd and the default to yes, compliant patient. When I hear a doctor say they have a bias against patients who do their own research, it sounds like they’re talking about people somewhere in the middle (closer to the compliance side) like me.

 

[Sparky Polastri]

Everyone was working off the same published data (which was altered).

Got it. THAT research and data wasn't to be trusted.

As someone who lost a little brother to opioid-related addiction, that's a real comfort.

Yeah I've ignored all your snark and condescension throughout this thread, but you're not going to mischaracterize me on these boards. Here's the FULL comment of what I was replying to. My response along the lines of "that's how it works" is clearly to the bold. For all the preaching you do to the rest of us, you sure don't follow it. This is straight up PSF sort of dishonesty.

 

[Mister CIA]

Do we still have an ombudsman here?

 

[The Longtime Lurker]

What I'm hearing Joe say is that I shouldn't rely on experts because they're wrong sometimes and have a profit motive. I should do my own research.

I'm going to take his advice and let my FBG subscription lapse and rely on BigDEnergy from Reddit, who plays in an entirely different type of league than me with totally different scoring, for my fantasy football advice.

I'd be shocked if Joe started a thread saying to set your lineup based on what LineupDominator said and nothing else, don't even try to figure it out yourself you're not smart enough. And he's biased towards clients who set it any other way.

That's why this thread is so weird.

This is way, way oversimplistic….but I’ll bite and say that over the long run, the average fantasy football player would be FAR better off setting their lineup strictly by the LineupDominator as opposed to their “gut”. I doubt the results would even be close.

Now modify the complexity of the Dominator by 1000x, and then consider whether you think the average layperson’s internet “research” outweighs the research, experience, and expertise that the physician possesses.

Asking questions is fine, and part of the Dr/Patient relationship. Suggesting to your Dr that you have a different diagnosis/plan because you “did your own research” is not only extremely arrogant, it’s also an absurd strategy if wellness is the goal.

If we’re talking about someone who watches Alex Jones all day and refuses antibiotics because they’re taking Infowars iodine supplements, I get it. That’s like telling a mechanic not to use motor oil because a YouTube video said prune juice works better. Totally nuts. Same with parents who skip necessary vaccines for their kids because of something they saw on Facebook. I understand the frustration. But where exactly is the line between those people and someone like me? How far is that from someone who wants to understand their condition or what they’re being prescribed, and “does their own research”? Im the type who read labels at the supermarket. If I’m prescribed a drug I’ve never taken I’m going to read the pamphlet. I’m going to ask friends and family. I'm going to digest information from what i believe to be reliable sources. That’s “doing my own research.” Where’s the line between that and being dismissed and vented about on a fantasy football message board?

A few years ago, I was told I needed a scan. I didn’t think it was necessary but the doctor insisted so I went. When I got there, they said it would be with contrast. I remembered reading somehting about lawsuits involving contrast dye, and since I already didn’t think the scan was needed and I'm sensitive to certain meds, that made me even more hesitant. I told the radiologist I preferred to skip the dye. They brushed it off and pressured me, saying the doctor wanted it and I should go ahead. "I've done a thousand of these and nobody has ever has a problem." So what was I supposed to do? I was getting a scan I didn’t believe I needed, and now being pushed to inject something I wasn’t comfortable with. Eventually I gave in. Nothing ended up happening but that’s not the point. The point is there’s a lot of space between the conspiracy crowd and the default to yes, compliant patient. When I hear a doctor say they have a bias against patients who do their own research, it sounds like they’re talking about people somewhere in the middle (closer to the compliance side) like me.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Everyone was working off the same published data (which was altered).

Got it. THAT research and data wasn't to be trusted.

As someone who lost a little brother to opioid-related addiction, that's a real comfort.

Yeah I've ignored all your snark and condescension throughout this thread, but you're not going to mischaracterize me on these boards. Here's the FULL comment of what I was replying to. My response along the lines of "that's how it works" is clearly to the bold. For all the preaching you do to the rest of us, you sure don't follow it. This is straight up PSF sort of dishonesty.

Nope. The full exchange is there for everyone to see. I'm not mischaracterizing anything. I'm quoting:


Post link: https://forums.footballguys.com/threads/doing-your-own-research.816469/post-25364202

Everyone was working off the same published data (which was altered).
Got it. THAT research and data wasn't to be trusted.

As someone who lost a little brother to opioid-related addiction, that's a real comfort.
Once it was proven yes. That's how it works

Everyone was working off the same published data (which was altered).

Got it. THAT research and data wasn't to be trusted.

As someone who lost a little brother to opioid-related addiction, that's a real comfort.

Your complete response in full:

Once it was proven yes. That's how it works

To be honest, it was a bit startling to see that type of response. But it is what it is.

 

[DA RAIDERS]

What I'm hearing Joe say is that I shouldn't rely on experts because they're wrong sometimes and have a profit motive. I should do my own research.

I'm going to take his advice and let my FBG subscription lapse and rely on BigDEnergy from Reddit, who plays in an entirely different type of league than me with totally different scoring, for my fantasy football advice.

I'd be shocked if Joe started a thread saying to set your lineup based on what LineupDominator said and nothing else, don't even try to figure it out yourself you're not smart enough. And he's biased towards clients who set it any other way.

That's why this thread is so weird.

This is way, way oversimplistic….but I’ll bite and say that over the long run, the average fantasy football player would be FAR better off setting their lineup strictly by the LineupDominator as opposed to their “gut”. I doubt the results would even be close.

Now modify the complexity of the Dominator by 1000x, and then consider whether you think the average layperson’s internet “research” outweighs the research, experience, and expertise that the physician possesses.

Asking questions is fine, and part of the Dr/Patient relationship. Suggesting to your Dr that you have a different diagnosis/plan because you “did your own research” is not only extremely arrogant, it’s also an absurd strategy if wellness is the goal.

If we’re talking about someone who watches Alex Jones all day and refuses antibiotics because they’re taking Infowars iodine supplements, I get it. That’s like telling a mechanic not to use motor oil because a YouTube video said prune juice works better. Totally nuts. Same with parents who skip necessary vaccines for their kids because of something they saw on Facebook. I understand the frustration. But where exactly is the line between those people and someone like me? How far is that from someone who wants to understand their condition or what they’re being prescribed, and “does their own research”? Im the type who read labels at the supermarket. If I’m prescribed a drug I’ve never taken I’m going to read the pamphlet. I’m going to ask friends and family. I'm going to digest information from what i believe to be reliable sources. That’s “doing my own research.” Where’s the line between that and being dismissed and vented about on a fantasy football message board?

A few years ago, I was told I needed a scan. I didn’t think it was necessary but the doctor insisted so I went. When I got there, they said it would be with contrast. I remembered reading somehting about lawsuits involving contrast dye, and since I already didn’t think the scan was needed and I'm sensitive to certain meds, that made me even more hesitant. I told the radiologist I preferred to skip the dye. They brushed it off and pressured me, saying the doctor wanted it and I should go ahead. "I've done a thousand of these and nobody has ever has a problem." So what was I supposed to do? I was getting a scan I didn’t believe I needed, and now being pushed to inject something I wasn’t comfortable with. Eventually I gave in. Nothing ended up happening but that’s not the point. The point is there’s a lot of space between the conspiracy crowd and the default to yes, compliant patient. When I hear a doctor say they have a bias against patients who do their own research, it sounds like they’re talking about people somewhere in the middle (closer to the compliance side) like me.

I’m certain that the OP was referring to your first paragraph. Everyone that’s all up in arms in this thread are not listening IMHO. The drs in this thread have stated multiple times that they encourage intelligent thoughtful questioning patients. Not the prune juice ones. I certainly ask a lot of what I think are smaht questions

I took out my peripheral IV today at home by myself. I’ve been getting home care and the good nurse went on vacation. Her rando replacements aren’t very good. So I just handled it myself. My daughter lent a hand for some pressure. When she came today she said she knew I was very independent and that I did a good job.

 

[DA RAIDERS]

Everyone was working off the same published data (which was altered).

Got it. THAT research and data wasn't to be trusted.

As someone who lost a little brother to opioid-related addiction, that's a real comfort.

Yeah I've ignored all your snark and condescension throughout this thread, but you're not going to mischaracterize me on these boards. Here's the FULL comment of what I was replying to. My response along the lines of "that's how it works" is clearly to the bold. For all the preaching you do to the rest of us, you sure don't follow it. This is straight up PSF sort of dishonesty.

Nope. The full exchange is there for everyone to see. I'm not mischaracterizing anything. I'm quoting:


Post link: https://forums.footballguys.com/threads/doing-your-own-research.816469/post-25364202

Everyone was working off the same published data (which was altered).
Got it. THAT research and data wasn't to be trusted.

As someone who lost a little brother to opioid-related addiction, that's a real comfort.
Once it was proven yes. That's how it works

Everyone was working off the same published data (which was altered).

Got it. THAT research and data wasn't to be trusted.

As someone who lost a little brother to opioid-related addiction, that's a real comfort.

Your complete response in full:

Once it was proven yes. That's how it works

To be honest, it was a bit startling to see that type of response. But it is what it is.

I don’t think he’s referring specifically to your brothers death. More once the faulty/wrong/break through data becomes available, then change comes, but often too late. I’m done trying to make peace in here.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Everyone was working off the same published data (which was altered).

Got it. THAT research and data wasn't to be trusted.

As someone who lost a little brother to opioid-related addiction, that's a real comfort.

Yeah I've ignored all your snark and condescension throughout this thread, but you're not going to mischaracterize me on these boards. Here's the FULL comment of what I was replying to. My response along the lines of "that's how it works" is clearly to the bold. For all the preaching you do to the rest of us, you sure don't follow it. This is straight up PSF sort of dishonesty.

Nope. The full exchange is there for everyone to see. I'm not mischaracterizing anything. I'm quoting:


Post link: https://forums.footballguys.com/threads/doing-your-own-research.816469/post-25364202

Everyone was working off the same published data (which was altered).
Got it. THAT research and data wasn't to be trusted.

As someone who lost a little brother to opioid-related addiction, that's a real comfort.
Once it was proven yes. That's how it works

Everyone was working off the same published data (which was altered).

Got it. THAT research and data wasn't to be trusted.

As someone who lost a little brother to opioid-related addiction, that's a real comfort.

Your complete response in full:

Once it was proven yes. That's how it works

To be honest, it was a bit startling to see that type of response. But it is what it is.

I don’t think he’s referring specifically to your brothers death. More once the faulty/wrong/break through data becomes available, then change comes, but often too late. I’m done trying to make peace in here.

No worries. And thanks. I too am done worrying about that. It was startling and disappointing. But it's done.

 

[Joe Bryant]

That's not ok. Why weren't those part of the initial testing? Thank God there's doctors willing to challenge the status quo indeed.

Stories like this are a huge black eye. Nobody should wonder why people would want to be a little skeptical and take a look at all the options.

This may not be your local PCP intentionally misleading anyone, but nobody can wonder why trust isn't easy to come by and the stakes are pretty high when it's your life in someone else's hands.

You're right that it wasn't ok and it's why Purdue should be paying dearly if not completely bankrupted by the whole thing. The "why" and "how" behind it is pretty political and litigious. This thread is already off the rails from the original intent with snark, emotion and quipping. I'm not sure going into it would be allowed by a person like myself. We can take it to PMs if you like. It should also be pointed out that this event with Purdue is clearly an exception and not the rule. That's not making an excuse for them. It's to point out this sort of thing doesn't happen often at all.

Yeah, this thread took a turn from conversation and into train wreck, emotions are running hot. We're getting away from original intent going down this fork too. A link to a previous thread on opioids was provided earlier and I'll take a look when i get a chance.

I understand what you're saying and that forces stronger than data were at play. I think I've said all i have on this and the thread overall. This one seems to have run its course.

Agreed, this one turned into a train wreck. I apologize for my role in helping with that and I could’ve used softer and less challenging words.

Being able to question authority is something I feel strongly about. And I shared honestly.

And I felt there were some remarkable other opinions expressed. I think words matter, and with a written form, they are what we have to work with here. It’s why I always ask for a link to the quote when people claim a poster does this or that.

It seems people can sometimes quickly jump to assume everything medical disconnected to vaccines. I don’t think that at all. My main questions are about the medical industrial complex as a whole. And the roles and factors from the different components.

And mostly bottom line, my concern of how it seems we have as Americans a fairly low standard of overall health.

That feels like a serious problem to me. And pulling back to the big picture and asking questions of how we got here and what can be done to improve seems important.

I would hope everyone understands that’s not political and I assume the health of our population is important to most people.

Good timing as I have my follow up appointment for my annual physical today with my MD.

To add a thought to this, as I said, my main concern is overall health. Obviously the medical industrial complex is a huge factor, but one would also have to include the food industry in that discussion as well.

I was going to ignore this, and perhaps I should, but the MEDICAL INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX is triple-stitched to the INDUSTRIAL POLICTICAL COMPLEX (you know this, I know) - which we can't discuss here. It leads to a tilted conversation (second time I've used that expression in this thread) where you get to get all your shots in, and then all the rejoinders AND persuasive opinions land on the cutting room floor.

That's simply not true. The medical industrial complex is not inherently political. It exists (and seems to thrive) regardless of what party is in power. I think it's appropriate to question it and have said so repeatedly. That's not political. And to accuse us of putting all the non political rejoinders and persuasive opinions on the cutting room floor is simply not true.

 

[Desert_Power]

I think what source to believe and who to trust is the most difficult decision we face in today's "hyper-informed" society. Knowing what is true or real and what isn't has never been more challenging. Makes sense that it has trickled into the healthcare sphere.

I wonder if there's been a degradation of trust, in general, in our society. I think I've always had a mistrust of auto mechanics, and I don't really know why. On the flip side, I've always trusted medical professionals. If my internet research leads me to diagnose myself with X and then a doctor says I have Y, I just shrug off the difference and assume the doctor is right. If that happens with my car, I get the fix they suggest but grumble internally, "Oh, big shock that you say it is Y when Y is more expensive than X. And, look at that, you also identified Z needs to be fixed!" Then I look for a different mechanic the next time I need something.

There's been a concerted effort to undermine our institutions, but it's a political topic.

It is a political topic, but it is also fueled a ton by social media and AI

 

[Mister CIA]

I think what source to believe and who to trust is the most difficult decision we face in today's "hyper-informed" society. Knowing what is true or real and what isn't has never been more challenging. Makes sense that it has trickled into the healthcare sphere.

I wonder if there's been a degradation of trust, in general, in our society. I think I've always had a mistrust of auto mechanics, and I don't really know why. On the flip side, I've always trusted medical professionals. If my internet research leads me to diagnose myself with X and then a doctor says I have Y, I just shrug off the difference and assume the doctor is right. If that happens with my car, I get the fix they suggest but grumble internally, "Oh, big shock that you say it is Y when Y is more expensive than X. And, look at that, you also identified Z needs to be fixed!" Then I look for a different mechanic the next time I need something.

There's been a concerted effort to undermine our institutions, but it's a political topic.

It is a political topic, but it is also fueled a ton by social media and AI

And political actors fuel social media.

Round and round, right?

 

[Nipsey]

What I'm hearing Joe say is that I shouldn't rely on experts because they're wrong sometimes and have a profit motive. I should do my own research.

I'm going to take his advice and let my FBG subscription lapse and rely on BigDEnergy from Reddit, who plays in an entirely different type of league than me with totally different scoring, for my fantasy football advice.

I'd be shocked if Joe started a thread saying to set your lineup based on what LineupDominator said and nothing else, don't even try to figure it out yourself you're not smart enough. And he's biased towards clients who set it any other way.

That's why this thread is so weird.

This is way, way oversimplistic….but I’ll bite and say that over the long run, the average fantasy football player would be FAR better off setting their lineup strictly by the LineupDominator as opposed to their “gut”. I doubt the results would even be close.

Now modify the complexity of the Dominator by 1000x, and then consider whether you think the average layperson’s internet “research” outweighs the research, experience, and expertise that the physician possesses.

Asking questions is fine, and part of the Dr/Patient relationship. Suggesting to your Dr that you have a different diagnosis/plan because you “did your own research” is not only extremely arrogant, it’s also an absurd strategy if wellness is the goal.

If we’re talking about someone who watches Alex Jones all day and refuses antibiotics because they’re taking Infowars iodine supplements, I get it. That’s like telling a mechanic not to use motor oil because a YouTube video said prune juice works better. Totally nuts. Same with parents who skip necessary vaccines for their kids because of something they saw on Facebook. I understand the frustration. But where exactly is the line between those people and someone like me? How far is that from someone who wants to understand their condition or what they’re being prescribed, and “does their own research”? Im the type who read labels at the supermarket. If I’m prescribed a drug I’ve never taken I’m going to read the pamphlet. I’m going to ask friends and family. I'm going to digest information from what i believe to be reliable sources. That’s “doing my own research.” Where’s the line between that and being dismissed and vented about on a fantasy football message board?

A few years ago, I was told I needed a scan. I didn’t think it was necessary but the doctor insisted so I went. When I got there, they said it would be with contrast. I remembered reading somehting about lawsuits involving contrast dye, and since I already didn’t think the scan was needed and I'm sensitive to certain meds, that made me even more hesitant. I told the radiologist I preferred to skip the dye. They brushed it off and pressured me, saying the doctor wanted it and I should go ahead. "I've done a thousand of these and nobody has ever has a problem." So what was I supposed to do? I was getting a scan I didn’t believe I needed, and now being pushed to inject something I wasn’t comfortable with. Eventually I gave in. Nothing ended up happening but that’s not the point. The point is there’s a lot of space between the conspiracy crowd and the default to yes, compliant patient. When I hear a doctor say they have a bias against patients who do their own research, it sounds like they’re talking about people somewhere in the middle (closer to the compliance side) like me.

I’m certain that the OP was referring to your first paragraph. Everyone that’s all up in arms in this thread are not listening IMHO. The drs in this thread have stated multiple times that they encourage intelligent thoughtful questioning patients. Not the prune juice ones. I certainly ask a lot of what I think are smaht questions

I took out my peripheral IV today at home by myself. I’ve been getting home care and the good nurse went on vacation. Her rando replacements aren’t very good. So I just handled it myself. My daughter lent a hand for some pressure. When she came today she said she knew I was very independent and that I did a good job.

The idea of a doctor truly embracing a collaborative, question-friendly approach sounds great in theory but in my experience that isn't always how it is. There have been times where I've felt dismissed (mentioned above), rushed or subtly discouraged from asking questions or pushing back at all. I have my own theory as to why that's the case and I see some parallels between my in-office experiences and a few of the responses in this thread.

 

[DA RAIDERS]

What I'm hearing Joe say is that I shouldn't rely on experts because they're wrong sometimes and have a profit motive. I should do my own research.

I'm going to take his advice and let my FBG subscription lapse and rely on BigDEnergy from Reddit, who plays in an entirely different type of league than me with totally different scoring, for my fantasy football advice.

I'd be shocked if Joe started a thread saying to set your lineup based on what LineupDominator said and nothing else, don't even try to figure it out yourself you're not smart enough. And he's biased towards clients who set it any other way.

That's why this thread is so weird.

This is way, way oversimplistic….but I’ll bite and say that over the long run, the average fantasy football player would be FAR better off setting their lineup strictly by the LineupDominator as opposed to their “gut”. I doubt the results would even be close.

Now modify the complexity of the Dominator by 1000x, and then consider whether you think the average layperson’s internet “research” outweighs the research, experience, and expertise that the physician possesses.

Asking questions is fine, and part of the Dr/Patient relationship. Suggesting to your Dr that you have a different diagnosis/plan because you “did your own research” is not only extremely arrogant, it’s also an absurd strategy if wellness is the goal.

If we’re talking about someone who watches Alex Jones all day and refuses antibiotics because they’re taking Infowars iodine supplements, I get it. That’s like telling a mechanic not to use motor oil because a YouTube video said prune juice works better. Totally nuts. Same with parents who skip necessary vaccines for their kids because of something they saw on Facebook. I understand the frustration. But where exactly is the line between those people and someone like me? How far is that from someone who wants to understand their condition or what they’re being prescribed, and “does their own research”? Im the type who read labels at the supermarket. If I’m prescribed a drug I’ve never taken I’m going to read the pamphlet. I’m going to ask friends and family. I'm going to digest information from what i believe to be reliable sources. That’s “doing my own research.” Where’s the line between that and being dismissed and vented about on a fantasy football message board?

A few years ago, I was told I needed a scan. I didn’t think it was necessary but the doctor insisted so I went. When I got there, they said it would be with contrast. I remembered reading somehting about lawsuits involving contrast dye, and since I already didn’t think the scan was needed and I'm sensitive to certain meds, that made me even more hesitant. I told the radiologist I preferred to skip the dye. They brushed it off and pressured me, saying the doctor wanted it and I should go ahead. "I've done a thousand of these and nobody has ever has a problem." So what was I supposed to do? I was getting a scan I didn’t believe I needed, and now being pushed to inject something I wasn’t comfortable with. Eventually I gave in. Nothing ended up happening but that’s not the point. The point is there’s a lot of space between the conspiracy crowd and the default to yes, compliant patient. When I hear a doctor say they have a bias against patients who do their own research, it sounds like they’re talking about people somewhere in the middle (closer to the compliance side) like me.

I’m certain that the OP was referring to your first paragraph. Everyone that’s all up in arms in this thread are not listening IMHO. The drs in this thread have stated multiple times that they encourage intelligent thoughtful questioning patients. Not the prune juice ones. I certainly ask a lot of what I think are smaht questions

I took out my peripheral IV today at home by myself. I’ve been getting home care and the good nurse went on vacation. Her rando replacements aren’t very good. So I just handled it myself. My daughter lent a hand for some pressure. When she came today she said she knew I was very independent and that I did a good job.

The idea of a doctor truly embracing a collaborative, question-friendly approach sounds great in theory but in my experience that isn't always how it is. There have been times where I've felt dismissed (mentioned above), rushed or subtly discouraged from asking questions or pushing back at all. I have my own theory as to why that's the case and I see some parallels between my in-office experiences and a few of the responses in this thread.

Of course. Some drs suck. Some are bored and over worked. Hungover. Etc. they’re people. Plenty of crappy practitioners across every known field that has ever existed in the history of mankind.

 

[Peggy]

I think it's time to go back and read the OP of this thread and understand what his actual point is/was. Continuing down the path this thread was turned in to seems unproductive. When we are at the point where we are comparing laypeople doing research on fantasy football teams to laypeople doing research on things like autoimmune disease and/or neurological disease we need to reset or just shut the whole thing down.

It was a listen to your doctor no matter what guy that came up with that analogy.

And nobody has been able to explain why researching your autoimmune disease is a bad thing, unless the sum of that research is some rando on Twitter, which literally no one disagrees with.

 

[Mister CIA]

I think it's time to go back and read the OP of this thread and understand what his actual point is/was. Continuing down the path this thread was turned in to seems unproductive. When we are at the point where we are comparing laypeople doing research on fantasy football teams to laypeople doing research on things like autoimmune disease and/or neurological disease we need to reset or just shut the whole thing down.

It was a listen to your doctor no matter what guy that came up with that analogy.

And nobody has been able to explain why researching your autoimmune disease is a bad thing, unless the sum of that research is some rando on Twitter, which literally no one disagrees with.

Did that happen in this thread?

 

[tommyGunZ]

I think what source to believe and who to trust is the most difficult decision we face in today's "hyper-informed" society. Knowing what is true or real and what isn't has never been more challenging. Makes sense that it has trickled into the healthcare sphere.

This is a great point. In my experience folks who are consistently distrustful of expertise and mainstream consensus have far more tolerance for errors from their unique/anecdotal “sources”.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I think what source to believe and who to trust is the most difficult decision we face in today's "hyper-informed" society. Knowing what is true or real and what isn't has never been more challenging. Makes sense that it has trickled into the healthcare sphere.

That's a really good point.

 

[urbanhack]

That's not ok. Why weren't those part of the initial testing? Thank God there's doctors willing to challenge the status quo indeed.

Stories like this are a huge black eye. Nobody should wonder why people would want to be a little skeptical and take a look at all the options.

This may not be your local PCP intentionally misleading anyone, but nobody can wonder why trust isn't easy to come by and the stakes are pretty high when it's your life in someone else's hands.

You're right that it wasn't ok and it's why Purdue should be paying dearly if not completely bankrupted by the whole thing. The "why" and "how" behind it is pretty political and litigious. This thread is already off the rails from the original intent with snark, emotion and quipping. I'm not sure going into it would be allowed by a person like myself. We can take it to PMs if you like. It should also be pointed out that this event with Purdue is clearly an exception and not the rule. That's not making an excuse for them. It's to point out this sort of thing doesn't happen often at all.

Yeah, this thread took a turn from conversation and into train wreck, emotions are running hot. We're getting away from original intent going down this fork too. A link to a previous thread on opioids was provided earlier and I'll take a look when i get a chance.

I understand what you're saying and that forces stronger than data were at play. I think I've said all i have on this and the thread overall. This one seems to have run its course.

Agreed, this one turned into a train wreck. I apologize for my role in helping with that and I could’ve used softer and less challenging words.

Being able to question authority is something I feel strongly about. And I shared honestly.

And I felt there were some remarkable other opinions expressed. I think words matter, and with a written form, they are what we have to work with here. It’s why I always ask for a link to the quote when people claim a poster does this or that.

It seems people can sometimes quickly jump to assume everything medical disconnected to vaccines. I don’t think that at all. My main questions are about the medical industrial complex as a whole. And the roles and factors from the different components.

And mostly bottom line, my concern of how it seems we have as Americans a fairly low standard of overall health.

That feels like a serious problem to me. And pulling back to the big picture and asking questions of how we got here and what can be done to improve seems important.

I would hope everyone understands that’s not political and I assume the health of our population is important to most people.

Good timing as I have my follow up appointment for my annual physical today with my MD.

To add a thought to this, as I said, my main concern is overall health. Obviously the medical industrial complex is a huge factor, but one would also have to include the food industry in that discussion as well.

I was going to ignore this, and perhaps I should, but the MEDICAL INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX is triple-stitched to the INDUSTRIAL POLICTICAL COMPLEX (you know this, I know) - which we can't discuss here. It leads to a tilted conversation (second time I've used that expression in this thread) where you get to get all your shots in, and then all the rejoinders AND persuasive opinions land on the cutting room floor.

That's simply not true. The medical industrial complex is not inherently political. It exists (and seems to thrive) regardless of what party is in power. I think it's appropriate to question it and have said so repeatedly. That's not political. And to accuse us of putting all the non political rejoinders and persuasive opinions on the cutting room floor is simply not true.

Of course it is. Otherwise we'd have non for profit healthcare like the rest of the world.

 

[urbanhack]

That's not ok. Why weren't those part of the initial testing? Thank God there's doctors willing to challenge the status quo indeed.

Stories like this are a huge black eye. Nobody should wonder why people would want to be a little skeptical and take a look at all the options.

This may not be your local PCP intentionally misleading anyone, but nobody can wonder why trust isn't easy to come by and the stakes are pretty high when it's your life in someone else's hands.

You're right that it wasn't ok and it's why Purdue should be paying dearly if not completely bankrupted by the whole thing. The "why" and "how" behind it is pretty political and litigious. This thread is already off the rails from the original intent with snark, emotion and quipping. I'm not sure going into it would be allowed by a person like myself. We can take it to PMs if you like. It should also be pointed out that this event with Purdue is clearly an exception and not the rule. That's not making an excuse for them. It's to point out this sort of thing doesn't happen often at all.

Yeah, this thread took a turn from conversation and into train wreck, emotions are running hot. We're getting away from original intent going down this fork too. A link to a previous thread on opioids was provided earlier and I'll take a look when i get a chance.

I understand what you're saying and that forces stronger than data were at play. I think I've said all i have on this and the thread overall. This one seems to have run its course.

Agreed, this one turned into a train wreck. I apologize for my role in helping with that and I could’ve used softer and less challenging words.

Being able to question authority is something I feel strongly about. And I shared honestly.

And I felt there were some remarkable other opinions expressed. I think words matter, and with a written form, they are what we have to work with here. It’s why I always ask for a link to the quote when people claim a poster does this or that.

It seems people can sometimes quickly jump to assume everything medical disconnected to vaccines. I don’t think that at all. My main questions are about the medical industrial complex as a whole. And the roles and factors from the different components.

And mostly bottom line, my concern of how it seems we have as Americans a fairly low standard of overall health.

That feels like a serious problem to me. And pulling back to the big picture and asking questions of how we got here and what can be done to improve seems important.

I would hope everyone understands that’s not political and I assume the health of our population is important to most people.

Good timing as I have my follow up appointment for my annual physical today with my MD.

To add a thought to this, as I said, my main concern is overall health. Obviously the medical industrial complex is a huge factor, but one would also have to include the food industry in that discussion as well.

I was going to ignore this, and perhaps I should, but the MEDICAL INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX is triple-stitched to the INDUSTRIAL POLICTICAL COMPLEX (you know this, I know) - which we can't discuss here. It leads to a tilted conversation (second time I've used that expression in this thread) where you get to get all your shots in, and then all the rejoinders AND persuasive opinions land on the cutting room floor.

That's simply not true. The medical industrial complex is not inherently political. It exists (and seems to thrive) regardless of what party is in power. I think it's appropriate to question it and have said so repeatedly. That's not political. And to accuse us of putting all the non political rejoinders and persuasive opinions on the cutting room floor is simply not true.

Of course it is. Otherwise we'd have non for profit healthcare like the rest of the world.

"In 2023, the healthcare industry spent a record $739 million on lobbying at the federal level, making it the top spending sector."

 

[Mitchie]

What I'm hearing Joe say is that I shouldn't rely on experts because they're wrong sometimes and have a profit motive. I should do my own research.

I'm going to take his advice and let my FBG subscription lapse and rely on BigDEnergy from Reddit, who plays in an entirely different type of league than me with totally different scoring, for my fantasy football advice.

I'd be shocked if Joe started a thread saying to set your lineup based on what LineupDominator said and nothing else, don't even try to figure it out yourself you're not smart enough. And he's biased towards clients who set it any other way.

That's why this thread is so weird.

This is way, way oversimplistic….but I’ll bite and say that over the long run, the average fantasy football player would be FAR better off setting their lineup strictly by the LineupDominator as opposed to their “gut”. I doubt the results would even be close.

Now modify the complexity of the Dominator by 1000x, and then consider whether you think the average layperson’s internet “research” outweighs the research, experience, and expertise that the physician possesses.

Asking questions is fine, and part of the Dr/Patient relationship. Suggesting to your Dr that you have a different diagnosis/plan because you “did your own research” is not only extremely arrogant, it’s also an absurd strategy if wellness is the goal.

The point is there’s a lot of space between the conspiracy crowd and the default to yes, compliant patient.

I think this nuance is getting lost in a decent amount of this discussion.

Actually have an example where I ignored the doctor's advice when he was recommending getting fairly extensive tests done as I thought the problem might go away on its own. I turned out to be right and the problem ended up going away. Now this wasn't life or death and if my symptoms hadn't gone away I would've had the tests done at a later time prob w/o much downside, but point being doctors aren't always 100% correct. They're seeing a lot of patients, can sometimes rush through things to see them all and are not necessarily experts on every single topic. And this doesn't mean that I'm not going to follow my doctors advice most of the time, just that not taking his view as gospel.

 

[Joe Bryant]

That's not ok. Why weren't those part of the initial testing? Thank God there's doctors willing to challenge the status quo indeed.

Stories like this are a huge black eye. Nobody should wonder why people would want to be a little skeptical and take a look at all the options.

This may not be your local PCP intentionally misleading anyone, but nobody can wonder why trust isn't easy to come by and the stakes are pretty high when it's your life in someone else's hands.

You're right that it wasn't ok and it's why Purdue should be paying dearly if not completely bankrupted by the whole thing. The "why" and "how" behind it is pretty political and litigious. This thread is already off the rails from the original intent with snark, emotion and quipping. I'm not sure going into it would be allowed by a person like myself. We can take it to PMs if you like. It should also be pointed out that this event with Purdue is clearly an exception and not the rule. That's not making an excuse for them. It's to point out this sort of thing doesn't happen often at all.

Yeah, this thread took a turn from conversation and into train wreck, emotions are running hot. We're getting away from original intent going down this fork too. A link to a previous thread on opioids was provided earlier and I'll take a look when i get a chance.

I understand what you're saying and that forces stronger than data were at play. I think I've said all i have on this and the thread overall. This one seems to have run its course.

Agreed, this one turned into a train wreck. I apologize for my role in helping with that and I could’ve used softer and less challenging words.

Being able to question authority is something I feel strongly about. And I shared honestly.

And I felt there were some remarkable other opinions expressed. I think words matter, and with a written form, they are what we have to work with here. It’s why I always ask for a link to the quote when people claim a poster does this or that.

It seems people can sometimes quickly jump to assume everything medical disconnected to vaccines. I don’t think that at all. My main questions are about the medical industrial complex as a whole. And the roles and factors from the different components.

And mostly bottom line, my concern of how it seems we have as Americans a fairly low standard of overall health.

That feels like a serious problem to me. And pulling back to the big picture and asking questions of how we got here and what can be done to improve seems important.

I would hope everyone understands that’s not political and I assume the health of our population is important to most people.

Good timing as I have my follow up appointment for my annual physical today with my MD.

To add a thought to this, as I said, my main concern is overall health. Obviously the medical industrial complex is a huge factor, but one would also have to include the food industry in that discussion as well.

I was going to ignore this, and perhaps I should, but the MEDICAL INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX is triple-stitched to the INDUSTRIAL POLICTICAL COMPLEX (you know this, I know) - which we can't discuss here. It leads to a tilted conversation (second time I've used that expression in this thread) where you get to get all your shots in, and then all the rejoinders AND persuasive opinions land on the cutting room floor.

That's simply not true. The medical industrial complex is not inherently political. It exists (and seems to thrive) regardless of what party is in power. I think it's appropriate to question it and have said so repeatedly. That's not political. And to accuse us of putting all the non political rejoinders and persuasive opinions on the cutting room floor is simply not true.

Of course it is. Otherwise we'd have non for profit healthcare like the rest of the world.

I disagree that it's inherently political. Sure, one can turn it political with "the right wants this for healthcare" or "the left wants that for healthcare". Or "the government should change to make these changes to government healthcare programs". But the industry can be discussed without going there. And the industry as a whole is not inherently political.

And closely tied to the medical industry is the food industry. Again, that can turn political if people want it to be. But it doesn't have to be.