Doing your own research (5 Viewers)

[The Longtime Lurker]

I’m increasingly fascinated by how different our experiences are. Are people saying that their experience with doctors is that they don’t want to talk to you about root causes? That’s never been my experience. It’s been the opposite.

Yes. I gave the example with statins earlier in this thread. My doctor wanted me on statins. Full stop. No conversation. I opted for dietary changes and have had it under control for a decade.

 

[djmich]

I’m increasingly fascinated by how different our experiences are. Are people saying that their experience with doctors is that they don’t want to talk to you about root causes? That’s never been my experience. It’s been the opposite.

Yes. I gave the example with statins earlier in this thread. My doctor wanted me on statins. Full stop. No conversation. I opted for dietary changes and have had it under control for a decade.

I gave an example as well which wasn't that my Dr. didn't want to discuss root causes, but that he missed the root cause of my gastro issues, even though it was in his underlying data/findings. I "researched" my way into the root cause.

 

[The Longtime Lurker]

Interesting as it seems like this discussion is happening in other places as well.

From Calley Means. Former lobbyist. (And please don't turn this political as his sister, Stanford MD Dr. Casey Means was nominated for Surgeon General.)

My point is this conversation seems to be happening a lot.

https://x.com/calleymeans/status/1942300248170455362

I recently had a conversation with a friend who runs a clinic network of 1,000+ MDs.

She said the main conversation among doctors is frustration that patients are asking about the "root cause" and "more natural cures" for their conditions.

She said 0% of patients asked these questions five years ago, and now 80% of patients do.

Her doctors see this trend as a negative thing, and spend their time deriding the MAHA movement and social media personalities in the breakroom.

These clinics focus on dermatology and make money selling drugs and procedures. Many dermatological issues are tied to root cause issues (diet/lifestyle) and not a lack of cream or injection.

On Reddit boards, countless medical professionals are decrying these "root cause" questions.

I think this represents a major shift/dynamic happening in medicine that should be openly discussed. Are patients' right to be asking more questions about the root cause, or are the doctors right to be deriding Americans for taking health into their own hands? To be asking about food, exercise, over-medicalization, and lifestyle habits...

Should patients trust their doctors on chronic disease management? Can patients actually reverse their conditions and thrive if they explore the root cause? Are the answers simpler and more under our control than we believe?

I think the answer is clearly yes. I hope the trend of patients asking doctors for the root cause doesn't slow down, and it not only changes how we practice medicine, but also changes our culture to be more empowered.

If you have an acute condition that will kill you right away, see your doctor and listen to them. Our system is a miracle at addressing these acute issues. But that's less than 10% of our spending.

Our system's failure at chronic disease management has economic, national defense, and spiritual effects that are existential.

We need to have respect for our food and our soil. We need to cherish breastfeeding and natural food... We need to ensure kids are away from their phones and outside running around... We need to rejuvenate a grounding in the spiritual...

These are the messages our healthcare leaders should be repeating again and again - and that light is starting to shine through, despite aggressive resistance from hard-working doctors whose income and identity are undeniably tied to the broken status quo.

The answer to the first bolded is a resounding yes. Atleast for me personally it was.

Agree with the second bolded aswell. I'm kind of surprised that a patient looking for the root cause of illness and lifestyle modification as a front line treatment is perceived as negative. Maybe that's just the author and his friends opinion and not indicative of the majority of doctors.

I too believe that asking questions about root causes and lifestyle modifications is an undeniably good thing. But is that what is happening? It’s possible that my perception may be way off, but my sense was that either as a result of pharmaceutical marketing or our nature to desire a no effort quick fix, that it is the patients by and large who seek and request prescriptions for the next miracle drug rather than the doctors pushing people to take drugs. I’ve seen a number of doctors in my lifetime, and exercise, diet and nutrition have always been a focal point of our discussions. Are we saying that the public by and large is now embracing lifestyle modification in lieu of quick fixes and it’s the doctors that are resistant? That seems counterintuitive to me.

I get it from the doctors perspective. How many times do they tell people to eat better and get ignored? All questions aren't good or productive either. These discussions are broad and there's nuance, so i can see it both ways. To me the message in the disputed post is a good one at face value. I don't know enough about the author to say what their motives are. I doubt the majority of the public embrace lifestyle modification, but for those that do it shouldn't be considered negative.

 

[Idiot Boxer]

Being your own advocate and doing your own research have vastly different connotations.

 

[djmich]

Interesting as it seems like this discussion is happening in other places as well.

From Calley Means. Former lobbyist. (And please don't turn this political as his sister, Stanford MD Dr. Casey Means was nominated for Surgeon General.)

My point is this conversation seems to be happening a lot.

https://x.com/calleymeans/status/1942300248170455362

I recently had a conversation with a friend who runs a clinic network of 1,000+ MDs.

She said the main conversation among doctors is frustration that patients are asking about the "root cause" and "more natural cures" for their conditions.

She said 0% of patients asked these questions five years ago, and now 80% of patients do.

Her doctors see this trend as a negative thing, and spend their time deriding the MAHA movement and social media personalities in the breakroom.

These clinics focus on dermatology and make money selling drugs and procedures. Many dermatological issues are tied to root cause issues (diet/lifestyle) and not a lack of cream or injection.

On Reddit boards, countless medical professionals are decrying these "root cause" questions.

I think this represents a major shift/dynamic happening in medicine that should be openly discussed. Are patients' right to be asking more questions about the root cause, or are the doctors right to be deriding Americans for taking health into their own hands? To be asking about food, exercise, over-medicalization, and lifestyle habits...

Should patients trust their doctors on chronic disease management? Can patients actually reverse their conditions and thrive if they explore the root cause? Are the answers simpler and more under our control than we believe?

I think the answer is clearly yes. I hope the trend of patients asking doctors for the root cause doesn't slow down, and it not only changes how we practice medicine, but also changes our culture to be more empowered.

If you have an acute condition that will kill you right away, see your doctor and listen to them. Our system is a miracle at addressing these acute issues. But that's less than 10% of our spending.

Our system's failure at chronic disease management has economic, national defense, and spiritual effects that are existential.

We need to have respect for our food and our soil. We need to cherish breastfeeding and natural food... We need to ensure kids are away from their phones and outside running around... We need to rejuvenate a grounding in the spiritual...

These are the messages our healthcare leaders should be repeating again and again - and that light is starting to shine through, despite aggressive resistance from hard-working doctors whose income and identity are undeniably tied to the broken status quo.

This post is 100% what I would expect Calley Means to post - he attacks traditional medicine and food and owns a company that pushes wellness products. Seems like a grift that has aircover with MAHA.

This is a serious question as i have no idea who Calley Means is, but what is wrong with what they said here?

Feels like attack the messenger when you can't attack the message.

Thought the article hit on the big point with root cause. Patients should want to know the root cause of their issues. And if a doctor doesn't want to explore that and explain it then the patient should be looking for a better doctor.

A lot of those "attacks" on traditional medicine and food are valid. There's a ton of unhealthy chemicals and junk in our food that the average person has no idea what is entering their body. Traditional medicine wants to push pills to fix everything instead of addressing root cause. I'm sure there's no financial incentives in the transaction between pharma reps visiting doctors and doctors overprescribing pills for everything if we are going to talk grifts.

Yeah, if people are happy with a bandaid approach that's fine. I see it all the time, gave an example with a family member earlier in this thread.

What i don't understand is the hostility towards wanting to find and fix the root cause of an illness through lifestyle modification (diet instead of statins if possible for instance).

As a general matter (I presume there are anecdotal examples), are doctors really hostile to lifestyle modification in their patients as a way to improve health?

I'll wager that nobody has ever been kicked out of a Dr's office for asking if eating more broccoli is a good thing. Or if walking more was a good thing.

But I do think doctors don't want to "waste time" talking about red dye #5 and the effects of it.

Of course there is a wide spectrum of "lifestyle modifications" that fall in between the above. In general I think consumers getting more educated and inquisitive is good, and you have to take some of the bad with the good. I think the medical industry isn't built to incorporate this approach into their 15 minute allotted consultations, which is an impediment and part of the frustration. And I'm sure there is a healthy dose of politics involved as well. Everything today, including medicine and even asking questions, is considered political. And that's all I'll say about that.

 

[Grace Under Pressure]

These clinics focus on dermatology and make money selling drugs and procedures. Many dermatological issues are tied to root cause issues (diet/lifestyle) and not a lack of cream or injection.

If you have an acute condition that will kill you right away, see your doctor and listen to them. Our system is a miracle at addressing these acute issues. But that's less than 10% of our spending.

These seem to be salient points. The line between dermatology clinics and wellness companies offering skin care products seems like it could be fairly blurred, imo.

Patients doing as much research as they can as a layperson, I fail to see any harm in that. Also, doctors should expect patients to be researching their credentials. In my community, we are friends with a noted cardiologist and neurologist who after spending time with at various events and get togethers, I wouldn't trust them to catch a cold.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Interesting as it seems like this discussion is happening in other places as well.

From Calley Means. Former lobbyist. (And please don't turn this political as his sister, Stanford MD Dr. Casey Means was nominated for Surgeon General.)

My point is this conversation seems to be happening a lot.

https://x.com/calleymeans/status/1942300248170455362

I recently had a conversation with a friend who runs a clinic network of 1,000+ MDs.

She said the main conversation among doctors is frustration that patients are asking about the "root cause" and "more natural cures" for their conditions.

She said 0% of patients asked these questions five years ago, and now 80% of patients do.

Her doctors see this trend as a negative thing, and spend their time deriding the MAHA movement and social media personalities in the breakroom.

These clinics focus on dermatology and make money selling drugs and procedures. Many dermatological issues are tied to root cause issues (diet/lifestyle) and not a lack of cream or injection.

On Reddit boards, countless medical professionals are decrying these "root cause" questions.

I think this represents a major shift/dynamic happening in medicine that should be openly discussed. Are patients' right to be asking more questions about the root cause, or are the doctors right to be deriding Americans for taking health into their own hands? To be asking about food, exercise, over-medicalization, and lifestyle habits...

Should patients trust their doctors on chronic disease management? Can patients actually reverse their conditions and thrive if they explore the root cause? Are the answers simpler and more under our control than we believe?

I think the answer is clearly yes. I hope the trend of patients asking doctors for the root cause doesn't slow down, and it not only changes how we practice medicine, but also changes our culture to be more empowered.

If you have an acute condition that will kill you right away, see your doctor and listen to them. Our system is a miracle at addressing these acute issues. But that's less than 10% of our spending.

Our system's failure at chronic disease management has economic, national defense, and spiritual effects that are existential.

We need to have respect for our food and our soil. We need to cherish breastfeeding and natural food... We need to ensure kids are away from their phones and outside running around... We need to rejuvenate a grounding in the spiritual...

These are the messages our healthcare leaders should be repeating again and again - and that light is starting to shine through, despite aggressive resistance from hard-working doctors whose income and identity are undeniably tied to the broken status quo.

The answer to the first bolded is a resounding yes. Atleast for me personally it was.

Agree with the second bolded aswell. I'm kind of surprised that a patient looking for the root cause of illness and lifestyle modification as a front line treatment is perceived as negative. Maybe that's just the author and his friends opinion and not indicative of the majority of doctors.

I too believe that asking questions about root causes and lifestyle modifications is an undeniably good thing. But is that what is happening? It’s possible that my perception may be way off, but my sense was that either as a result of pharmaceutical marketing or our nature to desire a no effort quick fix, that it is the patients by and large who seek and request prescriptions for the next miracle drug rather than the doctors pushing people to take drugs. I’ve seen a number of doctors in my lifetime, and exercise, diet and nutrition have always been a focal point of our discussions. Are we saying that the public by and large is now embracing lifestyle modification in lieu of quick fixes and it’s the doctors that are resistant? That seems counterintuitive to me.

I think most people want the magic pill to fix their problem and the doctor will quickly give it to them. I think the frustrations are with people that don't want the magic pill and want to address the root cause and the doctor wants to address the symptoms with a pill.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Interesting as it seems like this discussion is happening in other places as well.

From Calley Means. Former lobbyist. (And please don't turn this political as his sister, Stanford MD Dr. Casey Means was nominated for Surgeon General.)

My point is this conversation seems to be happening a lot.

https://x.com/calleymeans/status/1942300248170455362

I recently had a conversation with a friend who runs a clinic network of 1,000+ MDs.

She said the main conversation among doctors is frustration that patients are asking about the "root cause" and "more natural cures" for their conditions.

She said 0% of patients asked these questions five years ago, and now 80% of patients do.

Her doctors see this trend as a negative thing, and spend their time deriding the MAHA movement and social media personalities in the breakroom.

These clinics focus on dermatology and make money selling drugs and procedures. Many dermatological issues are tied to root cause issues (diet/lifestyle) and not a lack of cream or injection.

On Reddit boards, countless medical professionals are decrying these "root cause" questions.

I think this represents a major shift/dynamic happening in medicine that should be openly discussed. Are patients' right to be asking more questions about the root cause, or are the doctors right to be deriding Americans for taking health into their own hands? To be asking about food, exercise, over-medicalization, and lifestyle habits...

Should patients trust their doctors on chronic disease management? Can patients actually reverse their conditions and thrive if they explore the root cause? Are the answers simpler and more under our control than we believe?

I think the answer is clearly yes. I hope the trend of patients asking doctors for the root cause doesn't slow down, and it not only changes how we practice medicine, but also changes our culture to be more empowered.

If you have an acute condition that will kill you right away, see your doctor and listen to them. Our system is a miracle at addressing these acute issues. But that's less than 10% of our spending.

Our system's failure at chronic disease management has economic, national defense, and spiritual effects that are existential.

We need to have respect for our food and our soil. We need to cherish breastfeeding and natural food... We need to ensure kids are away from their phones and outside running around... We need to rejuvenate a grounding in the spiritual...

These are the messages our healthcare leaders should be repeating again and again - and that light is starting to shine through, despite aggressive resistance from hard-working doctors whose income and identity are undeniably tied to the broken status quo.

The answer to the first bolded is a resounding yes. Atleast for me personally it was.

Agree with the second bolded aswell. I'm kind of surprised that a patient looking for the root cause of illness and lifestyle modification as a front line treatment is perceived as negative. Maybe that's just the author and his friends opinion and not indicative of the majority of doctors.

I too believe that asking questions about root causes and lifestyle modifications is an undeniably good thing. But is that what is happening? It’s possible that my perception may be way off, but my sense was that either as a result of pharmaceutical marketing or our nature to desire a no effort quick fix, that it is the patients by and large who seek and request prescriptions for the next miracle drug rather than the doctors pushing people to take drugs. I’ve seen a number of doctors in my lifetime, and exercise, diet and nutrition have always been a focal point of our discussions. Are we saying that the public by and large is now embracing lifestyle modification in lieu of quick fixes and it’s the doctors that are resistant? That seems counterintuitive to me.

I think most people want the magic pill to fix their problem and the doctor will quickly give it to them. I think the frustrations are with people that don't want the magic pill and want to address the root cause and the doctor wants to address the symptoms with a pill.

Some of you must have terrible doctors. I have never once had a dr just shove a pill at me, or not talk through concerns, or whatever. A counter to your last part is that frustrations also boil over because sometimes a pill or a vaccine is the answer, and patients don't want to hear that because whatever core beliefs they have or because of something they saw online or heard in a podcast.

 

[dgreen]

Interesting as it seems like this discussion is happening in other places as well.

From Calley Means. Former lobbyist. (And please don't turn this political as his sister, Stanford MD Dr. Casey Means was nominated for Surgeon General.)

My point is this conversation seems to be happening a lot.

https://x.com/calleymeans/status/1942300248170455362

I recently had a conversation with a friend who runs a clinic network of 1,000+ MDs.

She said the main conversation among doctors is frustration that patients are asking about the "root cause" and "more natural cures" for their conditions.

She said 0% of patients asked these questions five years ago, and now 80% of patients do.

Her doctors see this trend as a negative thing, and spend their time deriding the MAHA movement and social media personalities in the breakroom.

These clinics focus on dermatology and make money selling drugs and procedures. Many dermatological issues are tied to root cause issues (diet/lifestyle) and not a lack of cream or injection.

On Reddit boards, countless medical professionals are decrying these "root cause" questions.

I think this represents a major shift/dynamic happening in medicine that should be openly discussed. Are patients' right to be asking more questions about the root cause, or are the doctors right to be deriding Americans for taking health into their own hands? To be asking about food, exercise, over-medicalization, and lifestyle habits...

Should patients trust their doctors on chronic disease management? Can patients actually reverse their conditions and thrive if they explore the root cause? Are the answers simpler and more under our control than we believe?

I think the answer is clearly yes. I hope the trend of patients asking doctors for the root cause doesn't slow down, and it not only changes how we practice medicine, but also changes our culture to be more empowered.

If you have an acute condition that will kill you right away, see your doctor and listen to them. Our system is a miracle at addressing these acute issues. But that's less than 10% of our spending.

Our system's failure at chronic disease management has economic, national defense, and spiritual effects that are existential.

We need to have respect for our food and our soil. We need to cherish breastfeeding and natural food... We need to ensure kids are away from their phones and outside running around... We need to rejuvenate a grounding in the spiritual...

These are the messages our healthcare leaders should be repeating again and again - and that light is starting to shine through, despite aggressive resistance from hard-working doctors whose income and identity are undeniably tied to the broken status quo.

This post is 100% what I would expect Calley Means to post - he attacks traditional medicine and food and owns a company that pushes wellness products. Seems like a grift that has aircover with MAHA.

This is a serious question as i have no idea who Calley Means is, but what is wrong with what they said here?

Feels like attack the messenger when you can't attack the message.

Thought the article hit on the big point with root cause. Patients should want to know the root cause of their issues. And if a doctor doesn't want to explore that and explain it then the patient should be looking for a better doctor.

A lot of those "attacks" on traditional medicine and food are valid. There's a ton of unhealthy chemicals and junk in our food that the average person has no idea what is entering their body. Traditional medicine wants to push pills to fix everything instead of addressing root cause. I'm sure there's no financial incentives in the transaction between pharma reps visiting doctors and doctors overprescribing pills for everything if we are going to talk grifts.

Yeah, if people are happy with a bandaid approach that's fine. I see it all the time, gave an example with a family member earlier in this thread.

What i don't understand is the hostility towards wanting to find and fix the root cause of an illness through lifestyle modification (diet instead of statins if possible for instance).

As a general matter (I presume there are anecdotal examples), are doctors really hostile to lifestyle modification in their patients as a way to improve health?

I'll wager that nobody has ever been kicked out of a Dr's office for asking if eating more broccoli is a good thing. Or if walking more was a good thing.

But I do think doctors don't want to "waste time" talking about red dye #5 and the effects of it.

Of course there is a wide spectrum of "lifestyle modifications" that fall in between the above. In general I think consumers getting more educated and inquisitive is good, and you have to take some of the bad with the good. I think the medical industry isn't built to incorporate this approach into their 15 minute allotted consultations, which is an impediment and part of the frustration. And I'm sure there is a healthy dose of politics involved as well. Everything today, including medicine and even asking questions, is considered political. And that's all I'll say about that.

Thanks. I think this helps me understand the complaint.

Medicine is highly specialized. Yeah, a general practitioner will provide some general guidance on all sorts of things, but once you get into details or more difficult aspects, they are going to want to send you to a specialist. So, they might tell you that diet and exercise are root causes, but if you want details on how to change your diet, they are going to suggest you talk to a nutritionist or dietitian. Things like that used to annoy me, but I understand why they want to stay in their lane.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Interesting as it seems like this discussion is happening in other places as well.

From Calley Means. Former lobbyist. (And please don't turn this political as his sister, Stanford MD Dr. Casey Means was nominated for Surgeon General.)

My point is this conversation seems to be happening a lot.

https://x.com/calleymeans/status/1942300248170455362

I recently had a conversation with a friend who runs a clinic network of 1,000+ MDs.

She said the main conversation among doctors is frustration that patients are asking about the "root cause" and "more natural cures" for their conditions.

She said 0% of patients asked these questions five years ago, and now 80% of patients do.

Her doctors see this trend as a negative thing, and spend their time deriding the MAHA movement and social media personalities in the breakroom.

These clinics focus on dermatology and make money selling drugs and procedures. Many dermatological issues are tied to root cause issues (diet/lifestyle) and not a lack of cream or injection.

On Reddit boards, countless medical professionals are decrying these "root cause" questions.

I think this represents a major shift/dynamic happening in medicine that should be openly discussed. Are patients' right to be asking more questions about the root cause, or are the doctors right to be deriding Americans for taking health into their own hands? To be asking about food, exercise, over-medicalization, and lifestyle habits...

Should patients trust their doctors on chronic disease management? Can patients actually reverse their conditions and thrive if they explore the root cause? Are the answers simpler and more under our control than we believe?

I think the answer is clearly yes. I hope the trend of patients asking doctors for the root cause doesn't slow down, and it not only changes how we practice medicine, but also changes our culture to be more empowered.

If you have an acute condition that will kill you right away, see your doctor and listen to them. Our system is a miracle at addressing these acute issues. But that's less than 10% of our spending.

Our system's failure at chronic disease management has economic, national defense, and spiritual effects that are existential.

We need to have respect for our food and our soil. We need to cherish breastfeeding and natural food... We need to ensure kids are away from their phones and outside running around... We need to rejuvenate a grounding in the spiritual...

These are the messages our healthcare leaders should be repeating again and again - and that light is starting to shine through, despite aggressive resistance from hard-working doctors whose income and identity are undeniably tied to the broken status quo.

The answer to the first bolded is a resounding yes. Atleast for me personally it was.

Agree with the second bolded aswell. I'm kind of surprised that a patient looking for the root cause of illness and lifestyle modification as a front line treatment is perceived as negative. Maybe that's just the author and his friends opinion and not indicative of the majority of doctors.

I too believe that asking questions about root causes and lifestyle modifications is an undeniably good thing. But is that what is happening? It’s possible that my perception may be way off, but my sense was that either as a result of pharmaceutical marketing or our nature to desire a no effort quick fix, that it is the patients by and large who seek and request prescriptions for the next miracle drug rather than the doctors pushing people to take drugs. I’ve seen a number of doctors in my lifetime, and exercise, diet and nutrition have always been a focal point of our discussions. Are we saying that the public by and large is now embracing lifestyle modification in lieu of quick fixes and it’s the doctors that are resistant? That seems counterintuitive to me.

I think most people want the magic pill to fix their problem and the doctor will quickly give it to them. I think the frustrations are with people that don't want the magic pill and want to address the root cause and the doctor wants to address the symptoms with a pill.

Some of you must have terrible doctors. I have never once had a dr just shove a pill at me, or not talk through concerns, or whatever. A counter to your last part is that frustrations also boil over because sometimes a pill or a vaccine is the answer, and patients don't want to hear that because whatever core beliefs they have or because of something they saw online or heard in a podcast.

What do vaccines have to do with this? No one said a pill wasn't the answer if the pill fixes the root cause instead of fixing a symptom.

 

[The Longtime Lurker]

Interesting as it seems like this discussion is happening in other places as well.

From Calley Means. Former lobbyist. (And please don't turn this political as his sister, Stanford MD Dr. Casey Means was nominated for Surgeon General.)

My point is this conversation seems to be happening a lot.

https://x.com/calleymeans/status/1942300248170455362

I recently had a conversation with a friend who runs a clinic network of 1,000+ MDs.

She said the main conversation among doctors is frustration that patients are asking about the "root cause" and "more natural cures" for their conditions.

She said 0% of patients asked these questions five years ago, and now 80% of patients do.

Her doctors see this trend as a negative thing, and spend their time deriding the MAHA movement and social media personalities in the breakroom.

These clinics focus on dermatology and make money selling drugs and procedures. Many dermatological issues are tied to root cause issues (diet/lifestyle) and not a lack of cream or injection.

On Reddit boards, countless medical professionals are decrying these "root cause" questions.

I think this represents a major shift/dynamic happening in medicine that should be openly discussed. Are patients' right to be asking more questions about the root cause, or are the doctors right to be deriding Americans for taking health into their own hands? To be asking about food, exercise, over-medicalization, and lifestyle habits...

Should patients trust their doctors on chronic disease management? Can patients actually reverse their conditions and thrive if they explore the root cause? Are the answers simpler and more under our control than we believe?

I think the answer is clearly yes. I hope the trend of patients asking doctors for the root cause doesn't slow down, and it not only changes how we practice medicine, but also changes our culture to be more empowered.

If you have an acute condition that will kill you right away, see your doctor and listen to them. Our system is a miracle at addressing these acute issues. But that's less than 10% of our spending.

Our system's failure at chronic disease management has economic, national defense, and spiritual effects that are existential.

We need to have respect for our food and our soil. We need to cherish breastfeeding and natural food... We need to ensure kids are away from their phones and outside running around... We need to rejuvenate a grounding in the spiritual...

These are the messages our healthcare leaders should be repeating again and again - and that light is starting to shine through, despite aggressive resistance from hard-working doctors whose income and identity are undeniably tied to the broken status quo.

This post is 100% what I would expect Calley Means to post - he attacks traditional medicine and food and owns a company that pushes wellness products. Seems like a grift that has aircover with MAHA.

This is a serious question as i have no idea who Calley Means is, but what is wrong with what they said here?

Feels like attack the messenger when you can't attack the message.

Thought the article hit on the big point with root cause. Patients should want to know the root cause of their issues. And if a doctor doesn't want to explore that and explain it then the patient should be looking for a better doctor.

A lot of those "attacks" on traditional medicine and food are valid. There's a ton of unhealthy chemicals and junk in our food that the average person has no idea what is entering their body. Traditional medicine wants to push pills to fix everything instead of addressing root cause. I'm sure there's no financial incentives in the transaction between pharma reps visiting doctors and doctors overprescribing pills for everything if we are going to talk grifts.

Yeah, if people are happy with a bandaid approach that's fine. I see it all the time, gave an example with a family member earlier in this thread.

What i don't understand is the hostility towards wanting to find and fix the root cause of an illness through lifestyle modification (diet instead of statins if possible for instance).

As a general matter (I presume there are anecdotal examples), are doctors really hostile to lifestyle modification in their patients as a way to improve health?

Sorry, i meant referring to the initial post as a grift, which maybe it is, but i found what i read completely reasonable in a vacuum. I don't think most doctors are hostile to lifestyle modification, but i will add i believe some may think it's a waste of their time if they believe patients aren't willing.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Interesting as it seems like this discussion is happening in other places as well.

From Calley Means. Former lobbyist. (And please don't turn this political as his sister, Stanford MD Dr. Casey Means was nominated for Surgeon General.)

My point is this conversation seems to be happening a lot.

https://x.com/calleymeans/status/1942300248170455362

I recently had a conversation with a friend who runs a clinic network of 1,000+ MDs.

She said the main conversation among doctors is frustration that patients are asking about the "root cause" and "more natural cures" for their conditions.

She said 0% of patients asked these questions five years ago, and now 80% of patients do.

Her doctors see this trend as a negative thing, and spend their time deriding the MAHA movement and social media personalities in the breakroom.

These clinics focus on dermatology and make money selling drugs and procedures. Many dermatological issues are tied to root cause issues (diet/lifestyle) and not a lack of cream or injection.

On Reddit boards, countless medical professionals are decrying these "root cause" questions.

I think this represents a major shift/dynamic happening in medicine that should be openly discussed. Are patients' right to be asking more questions about the root cause, or are the doctors right to be deriding Americans for taking health into their own hands? To be asking about food, exercise, over-medicalization, and lifestyle habits...

Should patients trust their doctors on chronic disease management? Can patients actually reverse their conditions and thrive if they explore the root cause? Are the answers simpler and more under our control than we believe?

I think the answer is clearly yes. I hope the trend of patients asking doctors for the root cause doesn't slow down, and it not only changes how we practice medicine, but also changes our culture to be more empowered.

If you have an acute condition that will kill you right away, see your doctor and listen to them. Our system is a miracle at addressing these acute issues. But that's less than 10% of our spending.

Our system's failure at chronic disease management has economic, national defense, and spiritual effects that are existential.

We need to have respect for our food and our soil. We need to cherish breastfeeding and natural food... We need to ensure kids are away from their phones and outside running around... We need to rejuvenate a grounding in the spiritual...

These are the messages our healthcare leaders should be repeating again and again - and that light is starting to shine through, despite aggressive resistance from hard-working doctors whose income and identity are undeniably tied to the broken status quo.

The answer to the first bolded is a resounding yes. Atleast for me personally it was.

Agree with the second bolded aswell. I'm kind of surprised that a patient looking for the root cause of illness and lifestyle modification as a front line treatment is perceived as negative. Maybe that's just the author and his friends opinion and not indicative of the majority of doctors.

I too believe that asking questions about root causes and lifestyle modifications is an undeniably good thing. But is that what is happening? It’s possible that my perception may be way off, but my sense was that either as a result of pharmaceutical marketing or our nature to desire a no effort quick fix, that it is the patients by and large who seek and request prescriptions for the next miracle drug rather than the doctors pushing people to take drugs. I’ve seen a number of doctors in my lifetime, and exercise, diet and nutrition have always been a focal point of our discussions. Are we saying that the public by and large is now embracing lifestyle modification in lieu of quick fixes and it’s the doctors that are resistant? That seems counterintuitive to me.

I think most people want the magic pill to fix their problem and the doctor will quickly give it to them. I think the frustrations are with people that don't want the magic pill and want to address the root cause and the doctor wants to address the symptoms with a pill.

Some of you must have terrible doctors. I have never once had a dr just shove a pill at me, or not talk through concerns, or whatever. A counter to your last part is that frustrations also boil over because sometimes a pill or a vaccine is the answer, and patients don't want to hear that because whatever core beliefs they have or because of something they saw online or heard in a podcast.

What do vaccines have to do with this? No one said a pill wasn't the answer if the pill fixes the root cause instead of fixing a symptom.

I was thinking of a couple scenarios I would guess are common sources of friction at the doctor's office in the last decade.

Yes, but the point is sometimes the patient is convinced inaccurately what that "root cause" is and are against that pill or vaccine. The downside of having all the info in the world in our pockets is that people who aren't good at reading science articles or didn't understand science in HS are experts in everything.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Interesting as it seems like this discussion is happening in other places as well.

From Calley Means. Former lobbyist. (And please don't turn this political as his sister, Stanford MD Dr. Casey Means was nominated for Surgeon General.)

My point is this conversation seems to be happening a lot.

https://x.com/calleymeans/status/1942300248170455362

I recently had a conversation with a friend who runs a clinic network of 1,000+ MDs.

She said the main conversation among doctors is frustration that patients are asking about the "root cause" and "more natural cures" for their conditions.

She said 0% of patients asked these questions five years ago, and now 80% of patients do.

Her doctors see this trend as a negative thing, and spend their time deriding the MAHA movement and social media personalities in the breakroom.

These clinics focus on dermatology and make money selling drugs and procedures. Many dermatological issues are tied to root cause issues (diet/lifestyle) and not a lack of cream or injection.

On Reddit boards, countless medical professionals are decrying these "root cause" questions.

I think this represents a major shift/dynamic happening in medicine that should be openly discussed. Are patients' right to be asking more questions about the root cause, or are the doctors right to be deriding Americans for taking health into their own hands? To be asking about food, exercise, over-medicalization, and lifestyle habits...

Should patients trust their doctors on chronic disease management? Can patients actually reverse their conditions and thrive if they explore the root cause? Are the answers simpler and more under our control than we believe?

I think the answer is clearly yes. I hope the trend of patients asking doctors for the root cause doesn't slow down, and it not only changes how we practice medicine, but also changes our culture to be more empowered.

If you have an acute condition that will kill you right away, see your doctor and listen to them. Our system is a miracle at addressing these acute issues. But that's less than 10% of our spending.

Our system's failure at chronic disease management has economic, national defense, and spiritual effects that are existential.

We need to have respect for our food and our soil. We need to cherish breastfeeding and natural food... We need to ensure kids are away from their phones and outside running around... We need to rejuvenate a grounding in the spiritual...

These are the messages our healthcare leaders should be repeating again and again - and that light is starting to shine through, despite aggressive resistance from hard-working doctors whose income and identity are undeniably tied to the broken status quo.

The answer to the first bolded is a resounding yes. Atleast for me personally it was.

Agree with the second bolded aswell. I'm kind of surprised that a patient looking for the root cause of illness and lifestyle modification as a front line treatment is perceived as negative. Maybe that's just the author and his friends opinion and not indicative of the majority of doctors.

I too believe that asking questions about root causes and lifestyle modifications is an undeniably good thing. But is that what is happening? It’s possible that my perception may be way off, but my sense was that either as a result of pharmaceutical marketing or our nature to desire a no effort quick fix, that it is the patients by and large who seek and request prescriptions for the next miracle drug rather than the doctors pushing people to take drugs. I’ve seen a number of doctors in my lifetime, and exercise, diet and nutrition have always been a focal point of our discussions. Are we saying that the public by and large is now embracing lifestyle modification in lieu of quick fixes and it’s the doctors that are resistant? That seems counterintuitive to me.

I think most people want the magic pill to fix their problem and the doctor will quickly give it to them. I think the frustrations are with people that don't want the magic pill and want to address the root cause and the doctor wants to address the symptoms with a pill.

Some of you must have terrible doctors. I have never once had a dr just shove a pill at me, or not talk through concerns, or whatever. A counter to your last part is that frustrations also boil over because sometimes a pill or a vaccine is the answer, and patients don't want to hear that because whatever core beliefs they have or because of something they saw online or heard in a podcast.

What do vaccines have to do with this? No one said a pill wasn't the answer if the pill fixes the root cause instead of fixing a symptom.

I was thinking of a couple scenarios I would guess are common sources of friction at the doctor's office in the last decade.

Yes, but the point is sometimes the patient is convinced inaccurately what that "root cause" is and are against that pill or vaccine. The downside of having all the info in the world in our pockets is that people who aren't good at reading science articles or didn't understand science in HS are experts in everything.

You're going down a different rabbit hole than what I'm describing.

I'm talking you go to the doctor with knee pain. He wants to put you on high does anti-inflammatory drugs but has no idea if you have a strain, a tear, general soreness, or what. And doesn't explain what the drug will do to fix the problem and just says this should take away a lot of the pain and make you feel better.

 

[Nugget]

Interesting as it seems like this discussion is happening in other places as well.

From Calley Means. Former lobbyist. (And please don't turn this political as his sister, Stanford MD Dr. Casey Means was nominated for Surgeon General.)

My point is this conversation seems to be happening a lot.

https://x.com/calleymeans/status/1942300248170455362

I recently had a conversation with a friend who runs a clinic network of 1,000+ MDs.

She said the main conversation among doctors is frustration that patients are asking about the "root cause" and "more natural cures" for their conditions.

She said 0% of patients asked these questions five years ago, and now 80% of patients do.

Her doctors see this trend as a negative thing, and spend their time deriding the MAHA movement and social media personalities in the breakroom.

These clinics focus on dermatology and make money selling drugs and procedures. Many dermatological issues are tied to root cause issues (diet/lifestyle) and not a lack of cream or injection.

On Reddit boards, countless medical professionals are decrying these "root cause" questions.

I think this represents a major shift/dynamic happening in medicine that should be openly discussed. Are patients' right to be asking more questions about the root cause, or are the doctors right to be deriding Americans for taking health into their own hands? To be asking about food, exercise, over-medicalization, and lifestyle habits...

Should patients trust their doctors on chronic disease management? Can patients actually reverse their conditions and thrive if they explore the root cause? Are the answers simpler and more under our control than we believe?

I think the answer is clearly yes. I hope the trend of patients asking doctors for the root cause doesn't slow down, and it not only changes how we practice medicine, but also changes our culture to be more empowered.

If you have an acute condition that will kill you right away, see your doctor and listen to them. Our system is a miracle at addressing these acute issues. But that's less than 10% of our spending.

Our system's failure at chronic disease management has economic, national defense, and spiritual effects that are existential.

We need to have respect for our food and our soil. We need to cherish breastfeeding and natural food... We need to ensure kids are away from their phones and outside running around... We need to rejuvenate a grounding in the spiritual...

These are the messages our healthcare leaders should be repeating again and again - and that light is starting to shine through, despite aggressive resistance from hard-working doctors whose income and identity are undeniably tied to the broken status quo.

This post is 100% what I would expect Calley Means to post - he attacks traditional medicine and food and owns a company that pushes wellness products. Seems like a grift that has aircover with MAHA.

This is a serious question as i have no idea who Calley Means is, but what is wrong with what they said here?

Feels like attack the messenger when you can't attack the message.

Thought the article hit on the big point with root cause. Patients should want to know the root cause of their issues. And if a doctor doesn't want to explore that and explain it then the patient should be looking for a better doctor.

A lot of those "attacks" on traditional medicine and food are valid. There's a ton of unhealthy chemicals and junk in our food that the average person has no idea what is entering their body. Traditional medicine wants to push pills to fix everything instead of addressing root cause. I'm sure there's no financial incentives in the transaction between pharma reps visiting doctors and doctors overprescribing pills for everything if we are going to talk grifts.

Yeah, if people are happy with a bandaid approach that's fine. I see it all the time, gave an example with a family member earlier in this thread.

What i don't understand is the hostility towards wanting to find and fix the root cause of an illness through lifestyle modification (diet instead of statins if possible for instance).

As a general matter (I presume there are anecdotal examples), are doctors really hostile to lifestyle modification in their patients as a way to improve health?

Sorry, i meant referring to the initial post as a grift, which maybe it is, but i found what i read completely reasonable in a vacuum. I don't think most doctors are hostile to lifestyle modification, but i will add i believe some may think it's a waste of their time if they believe patients aren't willing.

Calley Means sells supplements, herbal remedies, and wellness products on his TrueMed platform. He had a vision in a sweat lodge of connecting RFK Jr. together with Trump.

Vanity Fair Article

He had a popular appearance on the Tucker Carlson podcast with his sister - Calley & Casey Means: The Truth About Ozempic, the Pill, and How Big Pharma Keeps You Sick

Polarizing people - if you want to pay $300 for more bloodwork or wear a CGM, I'm all for it. I track my steps and heartrate on my watch and I consume vegan protein powder.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Interesting as it seems like this discussion is happening in other places as well.

From Calley Means. Former lobbyist. (And please don't turn this political as his sister, Stanford MD Dr. Casey Means was nominated for Surgeon General.)

My point is this conversation seems to be happening a lot.

https://x.com/calleymeans/status/1942300248170455362

I recently had a conversation with a friend who runs a clinic network of 1,000+ MDs.

She said the main conversation among doctors is frustration that patients are asking about the "root cause" and "more natural cures" for their conditions.

She said 0% of patients asked these questions five years ago, and now 80% of patients do.

Her doctors see this trend as a negative thing, and spend their time deriding the MAHA movement and social media personalities in the breakroom.

These clinics focus on dermatology and make money selling drugs and procedures. Many dermatological issues are tied to root cause issues (diet/lifestyle) and not a lack of cream or injection.

On Reddit boards, countless medical professionals are decrying these "root cause" questions.

I think this represents a major shift/dynamic happening in medicine that should be openly discussed. Are patients' right to be asking more questions about the root cause, or are the doctors right to be deriding Americans for taking health into their own hands? To be asking about food, exercise, over-medicalization, and lifestyle habits...

Should patients trust their doctors on chronic disease management? Can patients actually reverse their conditions and thrive if they explore the root cause? Are the answers simpler and more under our control than we believe?

I think the answer is clearly yes. I hope the trend of patients asking doctors for the root cause doesn't slow down, and it not only changes how we practice medicine, but also changes our culture to be more empowered.

If you have an acute condition that will kill you right away, see your doctor and listen to them. Our system is a miracle at addressing these acute issues. But that's less than 10% of our spending.

Our system's failure at chronic disease management has economic, national defense, and spiritual effects that are existential.

We need to have respect for our food and our soil. We need to cherish breastfeeding and natural food... We need to ensure kids are away from their phones and outside running around... We need to rejuvenate a grounding in the spiritual...

These are the messages our healthcare leaders should be repeating again and again - and that light is starting to shine through, despite aggressive resistance from hard-working doctors whose income and identity are undeniably tied to the broken status quo.

This post is 100% what I would expect Calley Means to post - he attacks traditional medicine and food and owns a company that pushes wellness products. Seems like a grift that has aircover with MAHA.

This is a serious question as i have no idea who Calley Means is, but what is wrong with what they said here?

Feels like attack the messenger when you can't attack the message.

Thought the article hit on the big point with root cause. Patients should want to know the root cause of their issues. And if a doctor doesn't want to explore that and explain it then the patient should be looking for a better doctor.

A lot of those "attacks" on traditional medicine and food are valid. There's a ton of unhealthy chemicals and junk in our food that the average person has no idea what is entering their body. Traditional medicine wants to push pills to fix everything instead of addressing root cause. I'm sure there's no financial incentives in the transaction between pharma reps visiting doctors and doctors overprescribing pills for everything if we are going to talk grifts.

Yeah, if people are happy with a bandaid approach that's fine. I see it all the time, gave an example with a family member earlier in this thread.

What i don't understand is the hostility towards wanting to find and fix the root cause of an illness through lifestyle modification (diet instead of statins if possible for instance).

As a general matter (I presume there are anecdotal examples), are doctors really hostile to lifestyle modification in their patients as a way to improve health?

Sorry, i meant referring to the initial post as a grift, which maybe it is, but i found what i read completely reasonable in a vacuum. I don't think most doctors are hostile to lifestyle modification, but i will add i believe some may think it's a waste of their time if they believe patients aren't willing.

Calley Means sells supplements, herbal remedies, and wellness products on his TrueMed platform. He had a vision in a sweat lodge of connecting RFK Jr. together with Trump.

Vanity Fair Article

He had a popular appearance on the Tucker Carlson podcast with his sister - Calley & Casey Means: The Truth About Ozempic, the Pill, and How Big Pharma Keeps You Sick

Polarizing people - if you want to pay $300 for more bloodwork or wear a CGM, I'm all for it. I track my steps and heartrate on my watch and I consume vegan protein powder.

Sounds political for you

 

[gianmarco]

Interesting as it seems like this discussion is happening in other places as well.

From Calley Means. Former lobbyist. (And please don't turn this political as his sister, Stanford MD Dr. Casey Means was nominated for Surgeon General.)

My point is this conversation seems to be happening a lot.

https://x.com/calleymeans/status/1942300248170455362

I recently had a conversation with a friend who runs a clinic network of 1,000+ MDs.

She said the main conversation among doctors is frustration that patients are asking about the "root cause" and "more natural cures" for their conditions.

She said 0% of patients asked these questions five years ago, and now 80% of patients do.

Her doctors see this trend as a negative thing, and spend their time deriding the MAHA movement and social media personalities in the breakroom.

These clinics focus on dermatology and make money selling drugs and procedures. Many dermatological issues are tied to root cause issues (diet/lifestyle) and not a lack of cream or injection.

On Reddit boards, countless medical professionals are decrying these "root cause" questions.

I think this represents a major shift/dynamic happening in medicine that should be openly discussed. Are patients' right to be asking more questions about the root cause, or are the doctors right to be deriding Americans for taking health into their own hands? To be asking about food, exercise, over-medicalization, and lifestyle habits...

Should patients trust their doctors on chronic disease management? Can patients actually reverse their conditions and thrive if they explore the root cause? Are the answers simpler and more under our control than we believe?

I think the answer is clearly yes. I hope the trend of patients asking doctors for the root cause doesn't slow down, and it not only changes how we practice medicine, but also changes our culture to be more empowered.

If you have an acute condition that will kill you right away, see your doctor and listen to them. Our system is a miracle at addressing these acute issues. But that's less than 10% of our spending.

Our system's failure at chronic disease management has economic, national defense, and spiritual effects that are existential.

We need to have respect for our food and our soil. We need to cherish breastfeeding and natural food... We need to ensure kids are away from their phones and outside running around... We need to rejuvenate a grounding in the spiritual...

These are the messages our healthcare leaders should be repeating again and again - and that light is starting to shine through, despite aggressive resistance from hard-working doctors whose income and identity are undeniably tied to the broken status quo.

This post is 100% what I would expect Calley Means to post - he attacks traditional medicine and food and owns a company that pushes wellness products. Seems like a grift that has aircover with MAHA.

This is a serious question as i have no idea who Calley Means is, but what is wrong with what they said here?

Feels like attack the messenger when you can't attack the message.

Thought the article hit on the big point with root cause. Patients should want to know the root cause of their issues. And if a doctor doesn't want to explore that and explain it then the patient should be looking for a better doctor.

A lot of those "attacks" on traditional medicine and food are valid. There's a ton of unhealthy chemicals and junk in our food that the average person has no idea what is entering their body. Traditional medicine wants to push pills to fix everything instead of addressing root cause. I'm sure there's no financial incentives in the transaction between pharma reps visiting doctors and doctors overprescribing pills for everything if we are going to talk grifts.

Yeah, if people are happy with a bandaid approach that's fine. I see it all the time, gave an example with a family member earlier in this thread.

What i don't understand is the hostility towards wanting to find and fix the root cause of an illness through lifestyle modification (diet instead of statins if possible for instance).

As a general matter (I presume there are anecdotal examples), are doctors really hostile to lifestyle modification in their patients as a way to improve health?

Sorry, i meant referring to the initial post as a grift, which maybe it is, but i found what i read completely reasonable in a vacuum. I don't think most doctors are hostile to lifestyle modification, but i will add i believe some may think it's a waste of their time if they believe patients aren't willing.

Calley Means sells supplements, herbal remedies, and wellness products on his TrueMed platform. He had a vision in a sweat lodge of connecting RFK Jr. together with Trump.

Vanity Fair Article

He had a popular appearance on the Tucker Carlson podcast with his sister - Calley & Casey Means: The Truth About Ozempic, the Pill, and How Big Pharma Keeps You Sick

Polarizing people - if you want to pay $300 for more bloodwork or wear a CGM, I'm all for it. I track my steps and heartrate on my watch and I consume vegan protein powder.

All this.

And Casey Means was a few months away from finishing her ENT residency (which has nothing to do with nutritional health, btw) and then "left". The reality is that doesn't happen unless she wasn't going to be able to finish and her program doesn't sign off. That's a HUGE red flag. Greater than 99 % chance she didn't leave voluntarily.

Here's a reddit thread that discusses this a little bit.

 

[Nugget]

Interesting as it seems like this discussion is happening in other places as well.

From Calley Means. Former lobbyist. (And please don't turn this political as his sister, Stanford MD Dr. Casey Means was nominated for Surgeon General.)

My point is this conversation seems to be happening a lot.

https://x.com/calleymeans/status/1942300248170455362

I recently had a conversation with a friend who runs a clinic network of 1,000+ MDs.

She said the main conversation among doctors is frustration that patients are asking about the "root cause" and "more natural cures" for their conditions.

She said 0% of patients asked these questions five years ago, and now 80% of patients do.

Her doctors see this trend as a negative thing, and spend their time deriding the MAHA movement and social media personalities in the breakroom.

These clinics focus on dermatology and make money selling drugs and procedures. Many dermatological issues are tied to root cause issues (diet/lifestyle) and not a lack of cream or injection.

On Reddit boards, countless medical professionals are decrying these "root cause" questions.

I think this represents a major shift/dynamic happening in medicine that should be openly discussed. Are patients' right to be asking more questions about the root cause, or are the doctors right to be deriding Americans for taking health into their own hands? To be asking about food, exercise, over-medicalization, and lifestyle habits...

Should patients trust their doctors on chronic disease management? Can patients actually reverse their conditions and thrive if they explore the root cause? Are the answers simpler and more under our control than we believe?

I think the answer is clearly yes. I hope the trend of patients asking doctors for the root cause doesn't slow down, and it not only changes how we practice medicine, but also changes our culture to be more empowered.

If you have an acute condition that will kill you right away, see your doctor and listen to them. Our system is a miracle at addressing these acute issues. But that's less than 10% of our spending.

Our system's failure at chronic disease management has economic, national defense, and spiritual effects that are existential.

We need to have respect for our food and our soil. We need to cherish breastfeeding and natural food... We need to ensure kids are away from their phones and outside running around... We need to rejuvenate a grounding in the spiritual...

These are the messages our healthcare leaders should be repeating again and again - and that light is starting to shine through, despite aggressive resistance from hard-working doctors whose income and identity are undeniably tied to the broken status quo.

This post is 100% what I would expect Calley Means to post - he attacks traditional medicine and food and owns a company that pushes wellness products. Seems like a grift that has aircover with MAHA.

This is a serious question as i have no idea who Calley Means is, but what is wrong with what they said here?

Feels like attack the messenger when you can't attack the message.

Thought the article hit on the big point with root cause. Patients should want to know the root cause of their issues. And if a doctor doesn't want to explore that and explain it then the patient should be looking for a better doctor.

A lot of those "attacks" on traditional medicine and food are valid. There's a ton of unhealthy chemicals and junk in our food that the average person has no idea what is entering their body. Traditional medicine wants to push pills to fix everything instead of addressing root cause. I'm sure there's no financial incentives in the transaction between pharma reps visiting doctors and doctors overprescribing pills for everything if we are going to talk grifts.

Yeah, if people are happy with a bandaid approach that's fine. I see it all the time, gave an example with a family member earlier in this thread.

What i don't understand is the hostility towards wanting to find and fix the root cause of an illness through lifestyle modification (diet instead of statins if possible for instance).

As a general matter (I presume there are anecdotal examples), are doctors really hostile to lifestyle modification in their patients as a way to improve health?

Sorry, i meant referring to the initial post as a grift, which maybe it is, but i found what i read completely reasonable in a vacuum. I don't think most doctors are hostile to lifestyle modification, but i will add i believe some may think it's a waste of their time if they believe patients aren't willing.

Calley Means sells supplements, herbal remedies, and wellness products on his TrueMed platform. He had a vision in a sweat lodge of connecting RFK Jr. together with Trump.

Vanity Fair Article

He had a popular appearance on the Tucker Carlson podcast with his sister - Calley & Casey Means: The Truth About Ozempic, the Pill, and How Big Pharma Keeps You Sick

Polarizing people - if you want to pay $300 for more bloodwork or wear a CGM, I'm all for it. I track my steps and heartrate on my watch and I consume vegan protein powder.

Sounds political for you

Because of the vision quest?

 

[The Longtime Lurker]

Interesting as it seems like this discussion is happening in other places as well.

From Calley Means. Former lobbyist. (And please don't turn this political as his sister, Stanford MD Dr. Casey Means was nominated for Surgeon General.)

My point is this conversation seems to be happening a lot.

https://x.com/calleymeans/status/1942300248170455362

I recently had a conversation with a friend who runs a clinic network of 1,000+ MDs.

She said the main conversation among doctors is frustration that patients are asking about the "root cause" and "more natural cures" for their conditions.

She said 0% of patients asked these questions five years ago, and now 80% of patients do.

Her doctors see this trend as a negative thing, and spend their time deriding the MAHA movement and social media personalities in the breakroom.

These clinics focus on dermatology and make money selling drugs and procedures. Many dermatological issues are tied to root cause issues (diet/lifestyle) and not a lack of cream or injection.

On Reddit boards, countless medical professionals are decrying these "root cause" questions.

I think this represents a major shift/dynamic happening in medicine that should be openly discussed. Are patients' right to be asking more questions about the root cause, or are the doctors right to be deriding Americans for taking health into their own hands? To be asking about food, exercise, over-medicalization, and lifestyle habits...

Should patients trust their doctors on chronic disease management? Can patients actually reverse their conditions and thrive if they explore the root cause? Are the answers simpler and more under our control than we believe?

I think the answer is clearly yes. I hope the trend of patients asking doctors for the root cause doesn't slow down, and it not only changes how we practice medicine, but also changes our culture to be more empowered.

If you have an acute condition that will kill you right away, see your doctor and listen to them. Our system is a miracle at addressing these acute issues. But that's less than 10% of our spending.

Our system's failure at chronic disease management has economic, national defense, and spiritual effects that are existential.

We need to have respect for our food and our soil. We need to cherish breastfeeding and natural food... We need to ensure kids are away from their phones and outside running around... We need to rejuvenate a grounding in the spiritual...

These are the messages our healthcare leaders should be repeating again and again - and that light is starting to shine through, despite aggressive resistance from hard-working doctors whose income and identity are undeniably tied to the broken status quo.

This post is 100% what I would expect Calley Means to post - he attacks traditional medicine and food and owns a company that pushes wellness products. Seems like a grift that has aircover with MAHA.

This is a serious question as i have no idea who Calley Means is, but what is wrong with what they said here?

Feels like attack the messenger when you can't attack the message.

Thought the article hit on the big point with root cause. Patients should want to know the root cause of their issues. And if a doctor doesn't want to explore that and explain it then the patient should be looking for a better doctor.

A lot of those "attacks" on traditional medicine and food are valid. There's a ton of unhealthy chemicals and junk in our food that the average person has no idea what is entering their body. Traditional medicine wants to push pills to fix everything instead of addressing root cause. I'm sure there's no financial incentives in the transaction between pharma reps visiting doctors and doctors overprescribing pills for everything if we are going to talk grifts.

Yeah, if people are happy with a bandaid approach that's fine. I see it all the time, gave an example with a family member earlier in this thread.

What i don't understand is the hostility towards wanting to find and fix the root cause of an illness through lifestyle modification (diet instead of statins if possible for instance).

As a general matter (I presume there are anecdotal examples), are doctors really hostile to lifestyle modification in their patients as a way to improve health?

Sorry, i meant referring to the initial post as a grift, which maybe it is, but i found what i read completely reasonable in a vacuum. I don't think most doctors are hostile to lifestyle modification, but i will add i believe some may think it's a waste of their time if they believe patients aren't willing.

Calley Means sells supplements, herbal remedies, and wellness products on his TrueMed platform. He had a vision in a sweat lodge of connecting RFK Jr. together with Trump.

Vanity Fair Article

He had a popular appearance on the Tucker Carlson podcast with his sister - Calley & Casey Means: The Truth About Ozempic, the Pill, and How Big Pharma Keeps You Sick

Polarizing people - if you want to pay $300 for more bloodwork or wear a CGM, I'm all for it. I track my steps and heartrate on my watch and I consume vegan protein powder.

I don't doubt grifting, it's everywhere. Thanks for giving a little more context to the individual in question.

This is what i find frustrating. Something as common sense (imo) as wanting to understand your health better and try and use lifestyle when possible gets a bad wrap, not always because the information is bad, but because the messenger has baggage.

(Not making an accusation that you're doing that at all. Pointing out someone's history isn't doing that, but so often the baby gets thrown out with the bathwater)

 

[djmich]

Interesting as it seems like this discussion is happening in other places as well.

From Calley Means. Former lobbyist. (And please don't turn this political as his sister, Stanford MD Dr. Casey Means was nominated for Surgeon General.)

My point is this conversation seems to be happening a lot.

https://x.com/calleymeans/status/1942300248170455362

I recently had a conversation with a friend who runs a clinic network of 1,000+ MDs.

She said the main conversation among doctors is frustration that patients are asking about the "root cause" and "more natural cures" for their conditions.

She said 0% of patients asked these questions five years ago, and now 80% of patients do.

Her doctors see this trend as a negative thing, and spend their time deriding the MAHA movement and social media personalities in the breakroom.

These clinics focus on dermatology and make money selling drugs and procedures. Many dermatological issues are tied to root cause issues (diet/lifestyle) and not a lack of cream or injection.

On Reddit boards, countless medical professionals are decrying these "root cause" questions.

I think this represents a major shift/dynamic happening in medicine that should be openly discussed. Are patients' right to be asking more questions about the root cause, or are the doctors right to be deriding Americans for taking health into their own hands? To be asking about food, exercise, over-medicalization, and lifestyle habits...

Should patients trust their doctors on chronic disease management? Can patients actually reverse their conditions and thrive if they explore the root cause? Are the answers simpler and more under our control than we believe?

I think the answer is clearly yes. I hope the trend of patients asking doctors for the root cause doesn't slow down, and it not only changes how we practice medicine, but also changes our culture to be more empowered.

If you have an acute condition that will kill you right away, see your doctor and listen to them. Our system is a miracle at addressing these acute issues. But that's less than 10% of our spending.

Our system's failure at chronic disease management has economic, national defense, and spiritual effects that are existential.

We need to have respect for our food and our soil. We need to cherish breastfeeding and natural food... We need to ensure kids are away from their phones and outside running around... We need to rejuvenate a grounding in the spiritual...

These are the messages our healthcare leaders should be repeating again and again - and that light is starting to shine through, despite aggressive resistance from hard-working doctors whose income and identity are undeniably tied to the broken status quo.

This post is 100% what I would expect Calley Means to post - he attacks traditional medicine and food and owns a company that pushes wellness products. Seems like a grift that has aircover with MAHA.

This is a serious question as i have no idea who Calley Means is, but what is wrong with what they said here?

Feels like attack the messenger when you can't attack the message.

Thought the article hit on the big point with root cause. Patients should want to know the root cause of their issues. And if a doctor doesn't want to explore that and explain it then the patient should be looking for a better doctor.

A lot of those "attacks" on traditional medicine and food are valid. There's a ton of unhealthy chemicals and junk in our food that the average person has no idea what is entering their body. Traditional medicine wants to push pills to fix everything instead of addressing root cause. I'm sure there's no financial incentives in the transaction between pharma reps visiting doctors and doctors overprescribing pills for everything if we are going to talk grifts.

Yeah, if people are happy with a bandaid approach that's fine. I see it all the time, gave an example with a family member earlier in this thread.

What i don't understand is the hostility towards wanting to find and fix the root cause of an illness through lifestyle modification (diet instead of statins if possible for instance).

As a general matter (I presume there are anecdotal examples), are doctors really hostile to lifestyle modification in their patients as a way to improve health?

Sorry, i meant referring to the initial post as a grift, which maybe it is, but i found what i read completely reasonable in a vacuum. I don't think most doctors are hostile to lifestyle modification, but i will add i believe some may think it's a waste of their time if they believe patients aren't willing.

Calley Means sells supplements, herbal remedies, and wellness products on his TrueMed platform. He had a vision in a sweat lodge of connecting RFK Jr. together with Trump.

Vanity Fair Article

He had a popular appearance on the Tucker Carlson podcast with his sister - Calley & Casey Means: The Truth About Ozempic, the Pill, and How Big Pharma Keeps You Sick

Polarizing people - if you want to pay $300 for more bloodwork or wear a CGM, I'm all for it. I track my steps and heartrate on my watch and I consume vegan protein powder.

All this.

And Casey Means was a few months away from finishing her ENT residency (which has nothing to do with nutritional health, btw) and then "left". The reality is that doesn't happen unless she wasn't going to be able to finish and her program doesn't sign off. That's a HUGE red flag. Greater than 99 % chance she didn't leave voluntarily.

Here's a reddit thread that discusses this a little bit.

And through all of this we’ve yet to hear what any of the objections about what was actually written are.

 

[gianmarco]

Interesting as it seems like this discussion is happening in other places as well.

From Calley Means. Former lobbyist. (And please don't turn this political as his sister, Stanford MD Dr. Casey Means was nominated for Surgeon General.)

My point is this conversation seems to be happening a lot.

https://x.com/calleymeans/status/1942300248170455362

I recently had a conversation with a friend who runs a clinic network of 1,000+ MDs.

She said the main conversation among doctors is frustration that patients are asking about the "root cause" and "more natural cures" for their conditions.

She said 0% of patients asked these questions five years ago, and now 80% of patients do.

Her doctors see this trend as a negative thing, and spend their time deriding the MAHA movement and social media personalities in the breakroom.

These clinics focus on dermatology and make money selling drugs and procedures. Many dermatological issues are tied to root cause issues (diet/lifestyle) and not a lack of cream or injection.

On Reddit boards, countless medical professionals are decrying these "root cause" questions.

I think this represents a major shift/dynamic happening in medicine that should be openly discussed. Are patients' right to be asking more questions about the root cause, or are the doctors right to be deriding Americans for taking health into their own hands? To be asking about food, exercise, over-medicalization, and lifestyle habits...

Should patients trust their doctors on chronic disease management? Can patients actually reverse their conditions and thrive if they explore the root cause? Are the answers simpler and more under our control than we believe?

I think the answer is clearly yes. I hope the trend of patients asking doctors for the root cause doesn't slow down, and it not only changes how we practice medicine, but also changes our culture to be more empowered.

If you have an acute condition that will kill you right away, see your doctor and listen to them. Our system is a miracle at addressing these acute issues. But that's less than 10% of our spending.

Our system's failure at chronic disease management has economic, national defense, and spiritual effects that are existential.

We need to have respect for our food and our soil. We need to cherish breastfeeding and natural food... We need to ensure kids are away from their phones and outside running around... We need to rejuvenate a grounding in the spiritual...

These are the messages our healthcare leaders should be repeating again and again - and that light is starting to shine through, despite aggressive resistance from hard-working doctors whose income and identity are undeniably tied to the broken status quo.

This post is 100% what I would expect Calley Means to post - he attacks traditional medicine and food and owns a company that pushes wellness products. Seems like a grift that has aircover with MAHA.

This is a serious question as i have no idea who Calley Means is, but what is wrong with what they said here?

Feels like attack the messenger when you can't attack the message.

Thought the article hit on the big point with root cause. Patients should want to know the root cause of their issues. And if a doctor doesn't want to explore that and explain it then the patient should be looking for a better doctor.

A lot of those "attacks" on traditional medicine and food are valid. There's a ton of unhealthy chemicals and junk in our food that the average person has no idea what is entering their body. Traditional medicine wants to push pills to fix everything instead of addressing root cause. I'm sure there's no financial incentives in the transaction between pharma reps visiting doctors and doctors overprescribing pills for everything if we are going to talk grifts.

Yeah, if people are happy with a bandaid approach that's fine. I see it all the time, gave an example with a family member earlier in this thread.

What i don't understand is the hostility towards wanting to find and fix the root cause of an illness through lifestyle modification (diet instead of statins if possible for instance).

As a general matter (I presume there are anecdotal examples), are doctors really hostile to lifestyle modification in their patients as a way to improve health?

Sorry, i meant referring to the initial post as a grift, which maybe it is, but i found what i read completely reasonable in a vacuum. I don't think most doctors are hostile to lifestyle modification, but i will add i believe some may think it's a waste of their time if they believe patients aren't willing.

Calley Means sells supplements, herbal remedies, and wellness products on his TrueMed platform. He had a vision in a sweat lodge of connecting RFK Jr. together with Trump.

Vanity Fair Article

He had a popular appearance on the Tucker Carlson podcast with his sister - Calley & Casey Means: The Truth About Ozempic, the Pill, and How Big Pharma Keeps You Sick

Polarizing people - if you want to pay $300 for more bloodwork or wear a CGM, I'm all for it. I track my steps and heartrate on my watch and I consume vegan protein powder.

All this.

And Casey Means was a few months away from finishing her ENT residency (which has nothing to do with nutritional health, btw) and then "left". The reality is that doesn't happen unless she wasn't going to be able to finish and her program doesn't sign off. That's a HUGE red flag. Greater than 99 % chance she didn't leave voluntarily.

Here's a reddit thread that discusses this a little bit.

And through all of this we’ve yet to hear what any of the objections about what was actually written are.

There's not really much objection to the overall message. You won't find many people that would argue with the basic premise of eating better and exercising. There's nothing groundbreaking about that.

Paying money for unnecessary tests, wearing glucose monitors when you don't have diabetes? That's just part of the bigger issue. That's the grift.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Interesting as it seems like this discussion is happening in other places as well.

From Calley Means. Former lobbyist. (And please don't turn this political as his sister, Stanford MD Dr. Casey Means was nominated for Surgeon General.)

My point is this conversation seems to be happening a lot.

https://x.com/calleymeans/status/1942300248170455362

I recently had a conversation with a friend who runs a clinic network of 1,000+ MDs.

She said the main conversation among doctors is frustration that patients are asking about the "root cause" and "more natural cures" for their conditions.

She said 0% of patients asked these questions five years ago, and now 80% of patients do.

Her doctors see this trend as a negative thing, and spend their time deriding the MAHA movement and social media personalities in the breakroom.

These clinics focus on dermatology and make money selling drugs and procedures. Many dermatological issues are tied to root cause issues (diet/lifestyle) and not a lack of cream or injection.

On Reddit boards, countless medical professionals are decrying these "root cause" questions.

I think this represents a major shift/dynamic happening in medicine that should be openly discussed. Are patients' right to be asking more questions about the root cause, or are the doctors right to be deriding Americans for taking health into their own hands? To be asking about food, exercise, over-medicalization, and lifestyle habits...

Should patients trust their doctors on chronic disease management? Can patients actually reverse their conditions and thrive if they explore the root cause? Are the answers simpler and more under our control than we believe?

I think the answer is clearly yes. I hope the trend of patients asking doctors for the root cause doesn't slow down, and it not only changes how we practice medicine, but also changes our culture to be more empowered.

If you have an acute condition that will kill you right away, see your doctor and listen to them. Our system is a miracle at addressing these acute issues. But that's less than 10% of our spending.

Our system's failure at chronic disease management has economic, national defense, and spiritual effects that are existential.

We need to have respect for our food and our soil. We need to cherish breastfeeding and natural food... We need to ensure kids are away from their phones and outside running around... We need to rejuvenate a grounding in the spiritual...

These are the messages our healthcare leaders should be repeating again and again - and that light is starting to shine through, despite aggressive resistance from hard-working doctors whose income and identity are undeniably tied to the broken status quo.

The answer to the first bolded is a resounding yes. Atleast for me personally it was.

Agree with the second bolded aswell. I'm kind of surprised that a patient looking for the root cause of illness and lifestyle modification as a front line treatment is perceived as negative. Maybe that's just the author and his friends opinion and not indicative of the majority of doctors.

I too believe that asking questions about root causes and lifestyle modifications is an undeniably good thing. But is that what is happening? It’s possible that my perception may be way off, but my sense was that either as a result of pharmaceutical marketing or our nature to desire a no effort quick fix, that it is the patients by and large who seek and request prescriptions for the next miracle drug rather than the doctors pushing people to take drugs. I’ve seen a number of doctors in my lifetime, and exercise, diet and nutrition have always been a focal point of our discussions. Are we saying that the public by and large is now embracing lifestyle modification in lieu of quick fixes and it’s the doctors that are resistant? That seems counterintuitive to me.

I think most people want the magic pill to fix their problem and the doctor will quickly give it to them. I think the frustrations are with people that don't want the magic pill and want to address the root cause and the doctor wants to address the symptoms with a pill.

Some of you must have terrible doctors. I have never once had a dr just shove a pill at me, or not talk through concerns, or whatever. A counter to your last part is that frustrations also boil over because sometimes a pill or a vaccine is the answer, and patients don't want to hear that because whatever core beliefs they have or because of something they saw online or heard in a podcast.

What do vaccines have to do with this? No one said a pill wasn't the answer if the pill fixes the root cause instead of fixing a symptom.

I was thinking of a couple scenarios I would guess are common sources of friction at the doctor's office in the last decade.

Yes, but the point is sometimes the patient is convinced inaccurately what that "root cause" is and are against that pill or vaccine. The downside of having all the info in the world in our pockets is that people who aren't good at reading science articles or didn't understand science in HS are experts in everything.

You're going down a different rabbit hole than what I'm describing.

I'm talking you go to the doctor with knee pain. He wants to put you on high does anti-inflammatory drugs but has no idea if you have a strain, a tear, general soreness, or what. And doesn't explain what the drug will do to fix the problem and just says this should take away a lot of the pain and make you feel better.

Does this happen to you? This goes back to my post above that some of you either have terrible doctors or maybe an odd bias. I have never experienced anything like this with myself or my family

 

[DA RAIDERS]

Y’all really have some ****ty experiences with drs. I’ve never had a pill pushing shill for big pharma.

I’ve always done my best to address root causes and avoid going on pills. my drs have worked with me and must be hiding their disdain for my attempts to fix things through diet and lifestyle.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Thought this comment and reply on the Means thread was interesting.

A person said, "One big issue I have with the idea of ‘root cause’ is that it’s often a very reductionist view. People are chasing THE root cause when actually it’s more likely to be a web of root causes. "

Means replied: https://x.com/calleymeans/status/1942304382579609948

Nobody is saying that the root cause isn't multi-factorial.

But imagine a patient with infertility, anxiety, obesity, and pre-diabetes (in many ways the median American).

Wack-a-mole with four different sets of pills masks (and probably worsens) the underlying cause of these issues - which is demonstrably the same thing.

That patient could be recommended and incentivized to be more mindful of their sleep, eating, movement, and over-medication.

Empowerment and incentivization to investigate these root cause factors could come from the medical system. That is absolutely a multi-factorial problem to solve, but that patient is certainly on a better trajectory (both in reversing their conditions, but also along the journey as they take more empowerment) than the one stuck on the wack-a-mole intervention "management" treadmill.

The roots of our inter-connected chronic disease crisis are simple - and the defining battle in health over the next 10 years will be whether that view takes hold or we will be convinced it is normal to be sick from the existing medical system and the media it funds.

My MD friend has expressed to me the same frustrations. Treating symptons instead of the root cause is a challenge.

I also experienced some of this with my Dad before he passed and my father in law now. Seeing multiple doctors for multiple problems can be a challenge when it seems there could be better communication between them.

 

[djmich]

Interesting as it seems like this discussion is happening in other places as well.

From Calley Means. Former lobbyist. (And please don't turn this political as his sister, Stanford MD Dr. Casey Means was nominated for Surgeon General.)

My point is this conversation seems to be happening a lot.

https://x.com/calleymeans/status/1942300248170455362

I recently had a conversation with a friend who runs a clinic network of 1,000+ MDs.

She said the main conversation among doctors is frustration that patients are asking about the "root cause" and "more natural cures" for their conditions.

She said 0% of patients asked these questions five years ago, and now 80% of patients do.

Her doctors see this trend as a negative thing, and spend their time deriding the MAHA movement and social media personalities in the breakroom.

These clinics focus on dermatology and make money selling drugs and procedures. Many dermatological issues are tied to root cause issues (diet/lifestyle) and not a lack of cream or injection.

On Reddit boards, countless medical professionals are decrying these "root cause" questions.

I think this represents a major shift/dynamic happening in medicine that should be openly discussed. Are patients' right to be asking more questions about the root cause, or are the doctors right to be deriding Americans for taking health into their own hands? To be asking about food, exercise, over-medicalization, and lifestyle habits...

Should patients trust their doctors on chronic disease management? Can patients actually reverse their conditions and thrive if they explore the root cause? Are the answers simpler and more under our control than we believe?

I think the answer is clearly yes. I hope the trend of patients asking doctors for the root cause doesn't slow down, and it not only changes how we practice medicine, but also changes our culture to be more empowered.

If you have an acute condition that will kill you right away, see your doctor and listen to them. Our system is a miracle at addressing these acute issues. But that's less than 10% of our spending.

Our system's failure at chronic disease management has economic, national defense, and spiritual effects that are existential.

We need to have respect for our food and our soil. We need to cherish breastfeeding and natural food... We need to ensure kids are away from their phones and outside running around... We need to rejuvenate a grounding in the spiritual...

These are the messages our healthcare leaders should be repeating again and again - and that light is starting to shine through, despite aggressive resistance from hard-working doctors whose income and identity are undeniably tied to the broken status quo.

This post is 100% what I would expect Calley Means to post - he attacks traditional medicine and food and owns a company that pushes wellness products. Seems like a grift that has aircover with MAHA.

This is a serious question as i have no idea who Calley Means is, but what is wrong with what they said here?

Feels like attack the messenger when you can't attack the message.

Thought the article hit on the big point with root cause. Patients should want to know the root cause of their issues. And if a doctor doesn't want to explore that and explain it then the patient should be looking for a better doctor.

A lot of those "attacks" on traditional medicine and food are valid. There's a ton of unhealthy chemicals and junk in our food that the average person has no idea what is entering their body. Traditional medicine wants to push pills to fix everything instead of addressing root cause. I'm sure there's no financial incentives in the transaction between pharma reps visiting doctors and doctors overprescribing pills for everything if we are going to talk grifts.

Yeah, if people are happy with a bandaid approach that's fine. I see it all the time, gave an example with a family member earlier in this thread.

What i don't understand is the hostility towards wanting to find and fix the root cause of an illness through lifestyle modification (diet instead of statins if possible for instance).

As a general matter (I presume there are anecdotal examples), are doctors really hostile to lifestyle modification in their patients as a way to improve health?

Sorry, i meant referring to the initial post as a grift, which maybe it is, but i found what i read completely reasonable in a vacuum. I don't think most doctors are hostile to lifestyle modification, but i will add i believe some may think it's a waste of their time if they believe patients aren't willing.

Calley Means sells supplements, herbal remedies, and wellness products on his TrueMed platform. He had a vision in a sweat lodge of connecting RFK Jr. together with Trump.

Vanity Fair Article

He had a popular appearance on the Tucker Carlson podcast with his sister - Calley & Casey Means: The Truth About Ozempic, the Pill, and How Big Pharma Keeps You Sick

Polarizing people - if you want to pay $300 for more bloodwork or wear a CGM, I'm all for it. I track my steps and heartrate on my watch and I consume vegan protein powder.

All this.

And Casey Means was a few months away from finishing her ENT residency (which has nothing to do with nutritional health, btw) and then "left". The reality is that doesn't happen unless she wasn't going to be able to finish and her program doesn't sign off. That's a HUGE red flag. Greater than 99 % chance she didn't leave voluntarily.

Here's a reddit thread that discusses this a little bit.

And through all of this we’ve yet to hear what any of the objections about what was actually written are.

There's not really much objection to the overall message. You won't find many people that would argue with the basic premise of eating better and exercising. There's nothing groundbreaking about that.

Paying money for unnecessary tests, wearing glucose monitors when you don't have diabetes? That's just part of the bigger issue. That's the grift.

Is there objection to paying for unnecessary tests? Is that what you took away from the link that is being referenced?

 

[Joe Bryant]

Paying money for unnecessary tests, wearing glucose monitors when you don't have diabetes? That's just part of the bigger issue. That's the grift.

Grift is a serious accusation. Can you elaborate on why it's a grift to want to know more about your body?

 

[djmich]

Thought this comment and reply on the Means thread was interesting.

A person said, "One big issue I have with the idea of ‘root cause’ is that it’s often a very reductionist view. People are chasing THE root cause when actually it’s more likely to be a web of root causes. "

Means replied: https://x.com/calleymeans/status/1942304382579609948

Nobody is saying that the root cause isn't multi-factorial.

But imagine a patient with infertility, anxiety, obesity, and pre-diabetes (in many ways the median American).

Wack-a-mole with four different sets of pills masks (and probably worsens) the underlying cause of these issues - which is demonstrably the same thing.

That patient could be recommended and incentivized to be more mindful of their sleep, eating, movement, and over-medication.

Empowerment and incentivization to investigate these root cause factors could come from the medical system. That is absolutely a multi-factorial problem to solve, but that patient is certainly on a better trajectory (both in reversing their conditions, but also along the journey as they take more empowerment) than the one stuck on the wack-a-mole intervention "management" treadmill.

The roots of our inter-connected chronic disease crisis are simple - and the defining battle in health over the next 10 years will be whether that view takes hold or we will be convinced it is normal to be sick from the existing medical system and the media it funds.

My MD friend has expressed to me the same frustrations. Treating symptons instead of the root cause is a challenge.

I also experienced some of this with my Dad before he passed and my father in law now. Seeing multiple doctors for multiple problems can be a challenge when it seems there could be better communication between them.

My issue with this Joe is that it implies that doctors are not suggesting the natural remedies. I would think they often are, or in the cases where they are not there is some clear evidence that behavior won't change (the subject has been a patient for a decade and hasn't heeded prior warnings). I don't think its as simple as Dr's just default to prescribing medications.

There is room for improvement from both sides.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Interesting as it seems like this discussion is happening in other places as well.

From Calley Means. Former lobbyist. (And please don't turn this political as his sister, Stanford MD Dr. Casey Means was nominated for Surgeon General.)

My point is this conversation seems to be happening a lot.

https://x.com/calleymeans/status/1942300248170455362

I recently had a conversation with a friend who runs a clinic network of 1,000+ MDs.

She said the main conversation among doctors is frustration that patients are asking about the "root cause" and "more natural cures" for their conditions.

She said 0% of patients asked these questions five years ago, and now 80% of patients do.

Her doctors see this trend as a negative thing, and spend their time deriding the MAHA movement and social media personalities in the breakroom.

These clinics focus on dermatology and make money selling drugs and procedures. Many dermatological issues are tied to root cause issues (diet/lifestyle) and not a lack of cream or injection.

On Reddit boards, countless medical professionals are decrying these "root cause" questions.

I think this represents a major shift/dynamic happening in medicine that should be openly discussed. Are patients' right to be asking more questions about the root cause, or are the doctors right to be deriding Americans for taking health into their own hands? To be asking about food, exercise, over-medicalization, and lifestyle habits...

Should patients trust their doctors on chronic disease management? Can patients actually reverse their conditions and thrive if they explore the root cause? Are the answers simpler and more under our control than we believe?

I think the answer is clearly yes. I hope the trend of patients asking doctors for the root cause doesn't slow down, and it not only changes how we practice medicine, but also changes our culture to be more empowered.

If you have an acute condition that will kill you right away, see your doctor and listen to them. Our system is a miracle at addressing these acute issues. But that's less than 10% of our spending.

Our system's failure at chronic disease management has economic, national defense, and spiritual effects that are existential.

We need to have respect for our food and our soil. We need to cherish breastfeeding and natural food... We need to ensure kids are away from their phones and outside running around... We need to rejuvenate a grounding in the spiritual...

These are the messages our healthcare leaders should be repeating again and again - and that light is starting to shine through, despite aggressive resistance from hard-working doctors whose income and identity are undeniably tied to the broken status quo.

Very interesting that this is becoming a bigger topic. Part of me is glad to see this — information is a good thing, self advocacy is a good thing, wanting to take care of your own health is a good thing.

Part of me is saddened because — let’s be honest here — this trend accelerated massively due to vaccine mandates. We were already headed that way with stupid people like my cousin believing that vaccines cause autism because Jenny McCarthy told her it was true. This is bat **** crazy of course, but unfortunately it is the darker side of self advocacy. And it is, IMHO, the OPs original intent when talking about the phrase “do your own research.” It really means “I have the answer already, from my next door neighbor Gladys, and I’m not leaving the doctor’s office satisfied until he/she agrees with the expert opinion of Gladys, who did the research herself.”

On the flip side, I’ve had direct personal experience with doctors not knowing the answers, but not admitting that they don’t know. And not showing any urgency to find the answers. My FIL has Parkinson’s, probably dementia too. But we don’t know, because nobody knows for sure what his diagnosis is. 2-3 GPs and multiple specialists have arrived at varying answers over the past SIX TO SEVEN YEARS.

Now before all the FBGs doctors jump in here to slam me, my BIL is a rheumatologist. Two of the experts we’ve seen are in his large teaching hospital. We’ve had the same possible diagnosis 3 times in 7 years — ruled out multiple times because “one small item simply doesn’t fit.” Only to circle back to that same diagnosis for each doctor that sees him. Why?

My BIL thinks this is all normal. Even though he admits that it isn’t. He’s unwilling to question or challenge anything the other doctors say, even when they say illogical things. We treat doctors like gods, but they are simply just people. Really knowledgeable and well trained people. Usually very well intentioned people.

But they are humans. They all have strengths and weaknesses. They (mostly) have confirmation bias just like (most) other human beings. And bluntly, not all of them are that smart, and not all of them are able to handle tough logic puzzles — but for a specialist, that’s actually their job much of the time!

So yeah — I “do my own research” sometimes. And I ask questions. And poke. And prod. And make doctors mildly uncomfortable at times.

But I also know I’m not the expert. Not the doctor. I’m an advocate for myself and my family. And also at the core more logical and problem-solving adept than 95+% of doctors.

 

[DA RAIDERS]

Thought this comment and reply on the Means thread was interesting.

A person said, "One big issue I have with the idea of ‘root cause’ is that it’s often a very reductionist view. People are chasing THE root cause when actually it’s more likely to be a web of root causes. "

Means replied: https://x.com/calleymeans/status/1942304382579609948

Nobody is saying that the root cause isn't multi-factorial.

But imagine a patient with infertility, anxiety, obesity, and pre-diabetes (in many ways the median American).

Wack-a-mole with four different sets of pills masks (and probably worsens) the underlying cause of these issues - which is demonstrably the same thing.

That patient could be recommended and incentivized to be more mindful of their sleep, eating, movement, and over-medication.

Empowerment and incentivization to investigate these root cause factors could come from the medical system. That is absolutely a multi-factorial problem to solve, but that patient is certainly on a better trajectory (both in reversing their conditions, but also along the journey as they take more empowerment) than the one stuck on the wack-a-mole intervention "management" treadmill.

The roots of our inter-connected chronic disease crisis are simple - and the defining battle in health over the next 10 years will be whether that view takes hold or we will be convinced it is normal to be sick from the existing medical system and the media it funds.

My MD friend has expressed to me the same frustrations. Treating symptons instead of the root cause is a challenge.

I also experienced some of this with my Dad before he passed and my father in law now. Seeing multiple doctors for multiple problems can be a challenge when it seems there could be better communication between them.

My issue with this Joe is that it implies that doctors are not suggesting the natural remedies. I would think they often are, or in the cases where they are not there is some clear evidence that behavior won't change (the subject has been a patient for a decade and hasn't heeded prior warnings). I don't think its as simple as Dr's just default to prescribing medications.

There is room for improvement from both sides.

I would say most patients don’t want to make changes to their lifestyle. They may say they do, but giving up things that they’re addicted to and/or starting and sticking to an exercise regime is hella hard.

It’s MUCH easier to just take a few pills.

 

[Jayrod]

I've gone against a doctor's advice twice in my life and both times it was for our kids.

The first was when our child's first pediatrician told us we should switch to skim milk for our son. He was nowhere near overweight and my wife had gotten into getting raw milk from a farm. We dug into it a bit and I understood that the doctor was doing her work to try and limit the obesity epidemic across the board, but we were being painted with a broad brush and felt it was a poor piece of advice for us as my wife is extremely health conscience and fed our son a very vegetable heavy, balanced and fresh food diet. We've stuck with whole milk to this day (raw got a little silly cost-wise so we stopped that after about 2 years).

The second was when we got our kids' vaccine lists and decided to skip the Rotavirus vaccine. I dug into all of them and what they did as my wife in a bit of an "anti-vax" group of women (I call them neo-hippies). The only one I felt wasn't really necessary was that one. Our pediatrician at the time was OK with it (different that the first one) and didn't really push back on it.

 

[djmich]

Health secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. on Monday praised a company that makes $7-a-pop meals that are delivered directly to the homes of Medicaid and Medicare enrollees. He even thanked Mom’s Meals for sending taxpayer-funded meals “without additives” to the homes of sick or elderly Americans. The spreads include chicken bacon ranch pasta for dinner and French toast sticks with fruit or ham patties. “This is really one of the solutions for making our country healthy again,” Kennedy said in the video, posted to his official health secretary account, after he toured the company’s Oklahoma facility last week. But an Associated Press review of Mom’s Meals menu, including the ingredients and nutrition labels, shows that the company’s offerings are the type of heat-and-eat, ultraprocessed foods that Kennedy routinely criticizes for making people sick. The meals contain chemical additives that would render them impossible to recreate at home in your kitchen, said Marion Nestle, a nutritionist at New York University and food policy expert, who reviewed the menu for The AP. Many menu items are high in sodium, and some are high in sugar or saturated fats, she said. “It is perfectly possible to make meals like this with real foods and no ultra-processing additives but every one of the meals I looked at is loaded with such additives,” Nestle said. “What’s so sad is that they don’t have to be this way. Other companies are able to produce much better products, but of course they cost more.”

Mom’s Meals is one of several companies across the U.S. that deliver “medically tailored” at-home meals. The meal programs are covered by Medicaid for some enrollees, including people who are sick with cancer or diabetes, as well as some older Americans who are enrolled in certain Medicare health insurance plans. Patients recently discharged from the hospital can also have the meals delivered, according to the company’s website. It’s unclear how much federal taxpayers spend on providing meals through Medicaid and Medicare every year. An investigation by STAT news last year found that some states were spending millions of dollars to provide medically tailored meals to Medicaid enrollees that were marketed as healthy and “dietitian approved.” But many companies served up meals loaded with salt, fat or sugar — all staples of an unhealthy American’s diet, the report concluded.

Associated Press

Thanks...how does this fit into whether or not doing your own research should be frowned upon by doctors or not. If anything, it proves don't trust the government, do your own research, and is political in nature.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Health secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. on Monday praised a company that makes $7-a-pop meals that are delivered directly to the homes of Medicaid and Medicare enrollees. He even thanked Mom’s Meals for sending taxpayer-funded meals “without additives” to the homes of sick or elderly Americans. The spreads include chicken bacon ranch pasta for dinner and French toast sticks with fruit or ham patties. “This is really one of the solutions for making our country healthy again,” Kennedy said in the video, posted to his official health secretary account, after he toured the company’s Oklahoma facility last week. But an Associated Press review of Mom’s Meals menu, including the ingredients and nutrition labels, shows that the company’s offerings are the type of heat-and-eat, ultraprocessed foods that Kennedy routinely criticizes for making people sick. The meals contain chemical additives that would render them impossible to recreate at home in your kitchen, said Marion Nestle, a nutritionist at New York University and food policy expert, who reviewed the menu for The AP. Many menu items are high in sodium, and some are high in sugar or saturated fats, she said. “It is perfectly possible to make meals like this with real foods and no ultra-processing additives but every one of the meals I looked at is loaded with such additives,” Nestle said. “What’s so sad is that they don’t have to be this way. Other companies are able to produce much better products, but of course they cost more.”

Mom’s Meals is one of several companies across the U.S. that deliver “medically tailored” at-home meals. The meal programs are covered by Medicaid for some enrollees, including people who are sick with cancer or diabetes, as well as some older Americans who are enrolled in certain Medicare health insurance plans. Patients recently discharged from the hospital can also have the meals delivered, according to the company’s website. It’s unclear how much federal taxpayers spend on providing meals through Medicaid and Medicare every year. An investigation by STAT news last year found that some states were spending millions of dollars to provide medically tailored meals to Medicaid enrollees that were marketed as healthy and “dietitian approved.” But many companies served up meals loaded with salt, fat or sugar — all staples of an unhealthy American’s diet, the report concluded.

Associated Press

Thanks...how does this fit into whether or not doing your own research should be frowned upon by doctors or not. If anything, it proves don't trust the government, do your own research, and is political in nature.

Agreed. Please do not take this off on a political angle.

 

[Harry Manback]

I've gone against a doctor's advice twice in my life and both times it was for our kids.

The first was when our child's first pediatrician told us we should switch to skim milk for our son. He was nowhere near overweight and my wife had gotten into getting raw milk from a farm. We dug into it a bit and I understood that the doctor was doing her work to try and limit the obesity epidemic across the board, but we were being painted with a broad brush and felt it was a poor piece of advice for us as my wife is extremely health conscience and fed our son a very vegetable heavy, balanced and fresh food diet. We've stuck with whole milk to this day (raw got a little silly cost-wise so we stopped that after about 2 years).

The second was when we got our kids' vaccine lists and decided to skip the Rotavirus vaccine. I dug into all of them and what they did as my wife in a bit of an "anti-vax" group of women (I call them neo-hippies). The only one I felt wasn't really necessary was that one. Our pediatrician at the time was OK with it (different that the first one) and didn't really push back on it.

Did you do any research into the dangers of raw milk?

 

[Joe Schmo]

I've gone against a doctor's advice twice in my life and both times it was for our kids.

The first was when our child's first pediatrician told us we should switch to skim milk for our son. He was nowhere near overweight and my wife had gotten into getting raw milk from a farm. We dug into it a bit and I understood that the doctor was doing her work to try and limit the obesity epidemic across the board, but we were being painted with a broad brush and felt it was a poor piece of advice for us as my wife is extremely health conscience and fed our son a very vegetable heavy, balanced and fresh food diet. We've stuck with whole milk to this day (raw got a little silly cost-wise so we stopped that after about 2 years).

The second was when we got our kids' vaccine lists and decided to skip the Rotavirus vaccine. I dug into all of them and what they did as my wife in a bit of an "anti-vax" group of women (I call them neo-hippies). The only one I felt wasn't really necessary was that one. Our pediatrician at the time was OK with it (different that the first one) and didn't really push back on it.

Did you do any research into the dangers of raw milk?

I did and let's just say...no bueno

 

[DA RAIDERS]

Shut it down if you’re gonna prune factual statements

 

[FBG Moderator]

Shut it down if you’re gonna prune factual statements

We're going to prune political statements. Factual and opinions. We've tried to be exceptionally clear about that.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I've gone against a doctor's advice twice in my life and both times it was for our kids.

The first was when our child's first pediatrician told us we should switch to skim milk for our son. He was nowhere near overweight and my wife had gotten into getting raw milk from a farm. We dug into it a bit and I understood that the doctor was doing her work to try and limit the obesity epidemic across the board, but we were being painted with a broad brush and felt it was a poor piece of advice for us as my wife is extremely health conscience and fed our son a very vegetable heavy, balanced and fresh food diet. We've stuck with whole milk to this day (raw got a little silly cost-wise so we stopped that after about 2 years).

The second was when we got our kids' vaccine lists and decided to skip the Rotavirus vaccine. I dug into all of them and what they did as my wife in a bit of an "anti-vax" group of women (I call them neo-hippies). The only one I felt wasn't really necessary was that one. Our pediatrician at the time was OK with it (different that the first one) and didn't really push back on it.

Did you do any research into the dangers of raw milk?

My research on raw milk was working on a dairy farm in High School.

The cows walked through the milking area and the automated hoses were attached to their udders. The dairymen all had spray hoses they'd use to wash the area off well before attaching the hoses. It was a farm, but felt like a pretty sanitary environment. The milk goes from the cow through the hoses and ends up in the giant stainless steel holding tanks.

Every few days, the trucks from the milk processor would come by and take the milk from the storage tank and transfer it into the truck they'd take to the milk processor plant.

And no matter how clean we kept things, when they emptied the milk storage holding tank, my job was to go in there and scoop out the 5 gallons or so of cow manure that would invariably have been mixed in with the milk and settled at the bottom of the tank.

So no thanks on Raw Milk.

 

[Mister CIA]

My research on raw milk was working on a dairy farm in High School.

The cows walked through the milking area and the automated hoses were attached to their udders. The dairymen all had spray hoses they'd use to wash the area off well before attaching the hoses. It was a farm, but felt like a pretty sanitary environment. The milk goes from the cow through the hoses and ends up in the giant stainless steel holding tanks.

Every few days, the trucks from the milk processor would come by and take the milk from the storage tank and transfer it into the truck they'd take to the milk processor plant.

And no matter how clean we kept things, when they emptied the milk storage holding tank, my job was go in there and scoop out the 5 gallons or so of cow manure that would invariably have been mixed in with the milk and settled at the bottom of the tank.

So no thanks on Raw Milk.

I've known people who stopped eating chicken after touring a chicken plant.

 

[Idiot Boxer]

I've gone against a doctor's advice twice in my life and both times it was for our kids.

The first was when our child's first pediatrician told us we should switch to skim milk for our son. He was nowhere near overweight and my wife had gotten into getting raw milk from a farm. We dug into it a bit and I understood that the doctor was doing her work to try and limit the obesity epidemic across the board, but we were being painted with a broad brush and felt it was a poor piece of advice for us as my wife is extremely health conscience and fed our son a very vegetable heavy, balanced and fresh food diet. We've stuck with whole milk to this day (raw got a little silly cost-wise so we stopped that after about 2 years).

The second was when we got our kids' vaccine lists and decided to skip the Rotavirus vaccine. I dug into all of them and what they did as my wife in a bit of an "anti-vax" group of women (I call them neo-hippies). The only one I felt wasn't really necessary was that one. Our pediatrician at the time was OK with it (different that the first one) and didn't really push back on it.

Did you do any research into the dangers of raw milk?

My research on raw milk was working on a dairy farm in High School.

The cows walked through the milking area and the automated hoses were attached to their udders. The dairymen all had spray hoses they'd use to wash the area off well before attaching the hoses. It was a farm, but felt like a pretty sanitary environment. The milk goes from the cow through the hoses and ends up in the giant stainless steel holding tanks.

Every few days, the trucks from the milk processor would come by and take the milk from the storage tank and transfer it into the truck they'd take to the milk processor plant.

And no matter how clean we kept things, when they emptied the milk storage holding tank, my job was go in there and scoop out the 5 gallons or so of cow manure that would invariably have been mixed in with the milk and settled at the bottom of the tank.

So no thanks on Raw Milk.

Joke redacted. Not sure where the line is around here these days.

It was an exclamation referencing the contents of the milk tanks after the milk was taken out

 

[RCon]

I looked, but I couldn't find a "gross" reaction emoji, so...

 

[Harry Manback]

My research on raw milk was working on a dairy farm in High School.

The cows walked through the milking area and the automated hoses were attached to their udders. The dairymen all had spray hoses they'd use to wash the area off well before attaching the hoses. It was a farm, but felt like a pretty sanitary environment. The milk goes from the cow through the hoses and ends up in the giant stainless steel holding tanks.

Every few days, the trucks from the milk processor would come by and take the milk from the storage tank and transfer it into the truck they'd take to the milk processor plant.

And no matter how clean we kept things, when they emptied the milk storage holding tank, my job was go in there and scoop out the 5 gallons or so of cow manure that would invariably have been mixed in with the milk and settled at the bottom of the tank.

So no thanks on Raw Milk.

I've known people who stopped eating chicken after touring a chicken plant.

Most people cook their chicken before eating it though. If you told me you ate raw chicken it would be comparable.

 

[Jayrod]

I've gone against a doctor's advice twice in my life and both times it was for our kids.

The first was when our child's first pediatrician told us we should switch to skim milk for our son. He was nowhere near overweight and my wife had gotten into getting raw milk from a farm. We dug into it a bit and I understood that the doctor was doing her work to try and limit the obesity epidemic across the board, but we were being painted with a broad brush and felt it was a poor piece of advice for us as my wife is extremely health conscience and fed our son a very vegetable heavy, balanced and fresh food diet. We've stuck with whole milk to this day (raw got a little silly cost-wise so we stopped that after about 2 years).

The second was when we got our kids' vaccine lists and decided to skip the Rotavirus vaccine. I dug into all of them and what they did as my wife in a bit of an "anti-vax" group of women (I call them neo-hippies). The only one I felt wasn't really necessary was that one. Our pediatrician at the time was OK with it (different that the first one) and didn't really push back on it.

Did you do any research into the dangers of raw milk?

Yes. I yielded to my wife, but from what I could tell, the general consensus was the risk was higher for catching diseases. She was pretty careful with the source and it honestly was delicious and we made our own butter from it. We haven't done it since like 2014 and unless there was a dairy farm next door, I doubt I'll ever drink it again in my lifetime.

The real issue I had was the skim milk vs whole milk. I found the "skim milk only" advice to be a one-size-fits-all approach which includes the average heavily obese American, which doesn't really apply to us.

 

[dozer]

I've gone against a doctor's advice twice in my life and both times it was for our kids.

The first was when our child's first pediatrician told us we should switch to skim milk for our son. He was nowhere near overweight and my wife had gotten into getting raw milk from a farm. We dug into it a bit and I understood that the doctor was doing her work to try and limit the obesity epidemic across the board, but we were being painted with a broad brush and felt it was a poor piece of advice for us as my wife is extremely health conscience and fed our son a very vegetable heavy, balanced and fresh food diet. We've stuck with whole milk to this day (raw got a little silly cost-wise so we stopped that after about 2 years).

The second was when we got our kids' vaccine lists and decided to skip the Rotavirus vaccine. I dug into all of them and what they did as my wife in a bit of an "anti-vax" group of women (I call them neo-hippies). The only one I felt wasn't really necessary was that one. Our pediatrician at the time was OK with it (different that the first one) and didn't really push back on it.

Did you do any research into the dangers of raw milk?

Yes. I yielded to my wife, but from what I could tell, the general consensus was the risk was higher for catching diseases. She was pretty careful with the source and it honestly was delicious and we made our own butter from it. We haven't done it since like 2014 and unless there was a dairy farm next door, I doubt I'll ever drink it again in my lifetime.

The real issue I had was the skim milk vs whole milk. I found the "skim milk only" advice to be a one-size-fits-all approach which includes the average heavily obese American, which doesn't really apply to us.

That's super interesting...

 

[Terminalxylem]

Interesting as it seems like this discussion is happening in other places as well.

From Calley Means. Former lobbyist. (And please don't turn this political as his sister, Stanford MD Dr. Casey Means was nominated for Surgeon General.)

My point is this conversation seems to be happening a lot.

https://x.com/calleymeans/status/1942300248170455362

I recently had a conversation with a friend who runs a clinic network of 1,000+ MDs.

She said the main conversation among doctors is frustration that patients are asking about the "root cause" and "more natural cures" for their conditions.

She said 0% of patients asked these questions five years ago, and now 80% of patients do.

Her doctors see this trend as a negative thing, and spend their time deriding the MAHA movement and social media personalities in the breakroom.

These clinics focus on dermatology and make money selling drugs and procedures. Many dermatological issues are tied to root cause issues (diet/lifestyle) and not a lack of cream or injection.

On Reddit boards, countless medical professionals are decrying these "root cause" questions.

I think this represents a major shift/dynamic happening in medicine that should be openly discussed. Are patients' right to be asking more questions about the root cause, or are the doctors right to be deriding Americans for taking health into their own hands? To be asking about food, exercise, over-medicalization, and lifestyle habits...

Should patients trust their doctors on chronic disease management? Can patients actually reverse their conditions and thrive if they explore the root cause? Are the answers simpler and more under our control than we believe?

I think the answer is clearly yes. I hope the trend of patients asking doctors for the root cause doesn't slow down, and it not only changes how we practice medicine, but also changes our culture to be more empowered.

If you have an acute condition that will kill you right away, see your doctor and listen to them. Our system is a miracle at addressing these acute issues. But that's less than 10% of our spending.

Our system's failure at chronic disease management has economic, national defense, and spiritual effects that are existential.

We need to have respect for our food and our soil. We need to cherish breastfeeding and natural food... We need to ensure kids are away from their phones and outside running around... We need to rejuvenate a grounding in the spiritual...

These are the messages our healthcare leaders should be repeating again and again - and that light is starting to shine through, despite aggressive resistance from hard-working doctors whose income and identity are undeniably tied to the broken status quo.

He makes some good points, as preventative care in this country is often ignored, and underutilized.

While our model of care can certainly be improved, patients also share some of the blame here. Despite all the pop science noise, I don't think the fundamentals of diet and exercise are a mystery. Yet we still have an epidemic of obesity, with all the associated diseases. And the numbers tell us lifestyle modification fails the vast majority of the time.

So many seek out a quick fix, which usually means a pill.

How will discussing the “root cause” change this dynamic? What if patients don’t want to acknowledge the evidence, in favor of some unsubstantiated, alternative approach? How much time can/should a doctor devote to dispelling pseudoscience? How many failed trials of lifestyle modification are enough?

Perhaps most importantly, how does financial stake in the book Good Energy influence Calley Means’ stance?

 

[Terminalxylem]

Interesting as it seems like this discussion is happening in other places as well.

From Calley Means. Former lobbyist. (And please don't turn this political as his sister, Stanford MD Dr. Casey Means was nominated for Surgeon General.)

My point is this conversation seems to be happening a lot.

https://x.com/calleymeans/status/1942300248170455362

I recently had a conversation with a friend who runs a clinic network of 1,000+ MDs.

She said the main conversation among doctors is frustration that patients are asking about the "root cause" and "more natural cures" for their conditions.

She said 0% of patients asked these questions five years ago, and now 80% of patients do.

Her doctors see this trend as a negative thing, and spend their time deriding the MAHA movement and social media personalities in the breakroom.

These clinics focus on dermatology and make money selling drugs and procedures. Many dermatological issues are tied to root cause issues (diet/lifestyle) and not a lack of cream or injection.

On Reddit boards, countless medical professionals are decrying these "root cause" questions.

I think this represents a major shift/dynamic happening in medicine that should be openly discussed. Are patients' right to be asking more questions about the root cause, or are the doctors right to be deriding Americans for taking health into their own hands? To be asking about food, exercise, over-medicalization, and lifestyle habits...

Should patients trust their doctors on chronic disease management? Can patients actually reverse their conditions and thrive if they explore the root cause? Are the answers simpler and more under our control than we believe?

I think the answer is clearly yes. I hope the trend of patients asking doctors for the root cause doesn't slow down, and it not only changes how we practice medicine, but also changes our culture to be more empowered.

If you have an acute condition that will kill you right away, see your doctor and listen to them. Our system is a miracle at addressing these acute issues. But that's less than 10% of our spending.

Our system's failure at chronic disease management has economic, national defense, and spiritual effects that are existential.

We need to have respect for our food and our soil. We need to cherish breastfeeding and natural food... We need to ensure kids are away from their phones and outside running around... We need to rejuvenate a grounding in the spiritual...

These are the messages our healthcare leaders should be repeating again and again - and that light is starting to shine through, despite aggressive resistance from hard-working doctors whose income and identity are undeniably tied to the broken status quo.

This post is 100% what I would expect Calley Means to post - he attacks traditional medicine and food and owns a company that pushes wellness products. Seems like a grift that has aircover with MAHA.

This is a serious question as i have no idea who Calley Means is, but what is wrong with what they said here?

Feels like attack the messenger when you can't attack the message.

Thought the article hit on the big point with root cause. Patients should want to know the root cause of their issues. And if a doctor doesn't want to explore that and explain it then the patient should be looking for a better doctor.

A lot of those "attacks" on traditional medicine and food are valid. There's a ton of unhealthy chemicals and junk in our food that the average person has no idea what is entering their body. Traditional medicine wants to push pills to fix everything instead of addressing root cause. I'm sure there's no financial incentives in the transaction between pharma reps visiting doctors and doctors overprescribing pills for everything if we are going to talk grifts.

Yeah, if people are happy with a bandaid approach that's fine. I see it all the time, gave an example with a family member earlier in this thread.

What i don't understand is the hostility towards wanting to find and fix the root cause of an illness through lifestyle modification (diet instead of statins if possible for instance).

As a general matter (I presume there are anecdotal examples), are doctors really hostile to lifestyle modification in their patients as a way to improve health?

1000% no, imo.

But most doctors are woefully undertrained in nutrition and exercise science. So they aren’t qualified to discuss specifics.

And they are time-strapped, with an understanding how often lifestyle modification fails. So many just cut to the chase of prescribing meds, to “do something” now.

 

[Terminalxylem]

I’m increasingly fascinated by how different our experiences are. Are people saying that their experience with doctors is that they don’t want to talk to you about root causes? That’s never been my experience. It’s been the opposite.

Yes. I gave the example with statins earlier in this thread. My doctor wanted me on statins. Full stop. No conversation. I opted for dietary changes and have had it under control for a decade.

IIRC, your doctor recommended HMG CoA reductase inhibitors because your cholesterol was above the level where lifestyle modification alone would be expected to get it in the acceptable range - we know diet/exercise may drop LDL 10-20%, for example.

And I seriously doubt he suggested you only take meds. Lifestyle modification is always part of a multimodal approach to improving cardiovascular risk.

But if he refused to discuss diet/exercise, while insisting meds were the only answer, you were right to seek another physician.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Interesting as it seems like this discussion is happening in other places as well.

From Calley Means. Former lobbyist. (And please don't turn this political as his sister, Stanford MD Dr. Casey Means was nominated for Surgeon General.)

My point is this conversation seems to be happening a lot.

https://x.com/calleymeans/status/1942300248170455362

I recently had a conversation with a friend who runs a clinic network of 1,000+ MDs.

She said the main conversation among doctors is frustration that patients are asking about the "root cause" and "more natural cures" for their conditions.

She said 0% of patients asked these questions five years ago, and now 80% of patients do.

Her doctors see this trend as a negative thing, and spend their time deriding the MAHA movement and social media personalities in the breakroom.

These clinics focus on dermatology and make money selling drugs and procedures. Many dermatological issues are tied to root cause issues (diet/lifestyle) and not a lack of cream or injection.

On Reddit boards, countless medical professionals are decrying these "root cause" questions.

I think this represents a major shift/dynamic happening in medicine that should be openly discussed. Are patients' right to be asking more questions about the root cause, or are the doctors right to be deriding Americans for taking health into their own hands? To be asking about food, exercise, over-medicalization, and lifestyle habits...

Should patients trust their doctors on chronic disease management? Can patients actually reverse their conditions and thrive if they explore the root cause? Are the answers simpler and more under our control than we believe?

I think the answer is clearly yes. I hope the trend of patients asking doctors for the root cause doesn't slow down, and it not only changes how we practice medicine, but also changes our culture to be more empowered.

If you have an acute condition that will kill you right away, see your doctor and listen to them. Our system is a miracle at addressing these acute issues. But that's less than 10% of our spending.

Our system's failure at chronic disease management has economic, national defense, and spiritual effects that are existential.

We need to have respect for our food and our soil. We need to cherish breastfeeding and natural food... We need to ensure kids are away from their phones and outside running around... We need to rejuvenate a grounding in the spiritual...

These are the messages our healthcare leaders should be repeating again and again - and that light is starting to shine through, despite aggressive resistance from hard-working doctors whose income and identity are undeniably tied to the broken status quo.

The answer to the first bolded is a resounding yes. Atleast for me personally it was.

Agree with the second bolded aswell. I'm kind of surprised that a patient looking for the root cause of illness and lifestyle modification as a front line treatment is perceived as negative. Maybe that's just the author and his friends opinion and not indicative of the majority of doctors.

I too believe that asking questions about root causes and lifestyle modifications is an undeniably good thing. But is that what is happening? It’s possible that my perception may be way off, but my sense was that either as a result of pharmaceutical marketing or our nature to desire a no effort quick fix, that it is the patients by and large who seek and request prescriptions for the next miracle drug rather than the doctors pushing people to take drugs. I’ve seen a number of doctors in my lifetime, and exercise, diet and nutrition have always been a focal point of our discussions. Are we saying that the public by and large is now embracing lifestyle modification in lieu of quick fixes and it’s the doctors that are resistant? That seems counterintuitive to me.

I get it from the doctors perspective. How many times do they tell people to eat better and get ignored? All questions aren't good or productive either. These discussions are broad and there's nuance, so i can see it both ways. To me the message in the disputed post is a good one at face value. I don't know enough about the author to say what their motives are. I doubt the majority of the public embrace lifestyle modification, but for those that do it shouldn't be considered negative.

You are correct, but it’s incumbent on the clinician to be persistent, while providing specific, actionable advice for how to carry out lifestyle modification.

I think many doctors fail at the latter, and may not even know the specifics themselves. That needs to change, but investing more and more time to dispel alternative “root cause” theories runs counter to that goal.

Medicine is pretty complex in its own right, so educating oneself in every flavor of alternative medicine, including a bunch of pseudoscience, is a big challenge, to put it lightly.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Perhaps most importantly, how does financial stake in the book Good Energy influence Calley Means’ stance?

As I said above, I think it's always good to consider incentives. For all sides. As I said way back about the medical industry as well. I think that's fair.

For Means, I don't know how his financial interests in his book influence his stance. I'd hope he believes what he said in the book and his post is aligned with what he's saying.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Interesting as it seems like this discussion is happening in other places as well.

From Calley Means. Former lobbyist. (And please don't turn this political as his sister, Stanford MD Dr. Casey Means was nominated for Surgeon General.)

My point is this conversation seems to be happening a lot.

https://x.com/calleymeans/status/1942300248170455362

I recently had a conversation with a friend who runs a clinic network of 1,000+ MDs.

She said the main conversation among doctors is frustration that patients are asking about the "root cause" and "more natural cures" for their conditions.

She said 0% of patients asked these questions five years ago, and now 80% of patients do.

Her doctors see this trend as a negative thing, and spend their time deriding the MAHA movement and social media personalities in the breakroom.

These clinics focus on dermatology and make money selling drugs and procedures. Many dermatological issues are tied to root cause issues (diet/lifestyle) and not a lack of cream or injection.

On Reddit boards, countless medical professionals are decrying these "root cause" questions.

I think this represents a major shift/dynamic happening in medicine that should be openly discussed. Are patients' right to be asking more questions about the root cause, or are the doctors right to be deriding Americans for taking health into their own hands? To be asking about food, exercise, over-medicalization, and lifestyle habits...

Should patients trust their doctors on chronic disease management? Can patients actually reverse their conditions and thrive if they explore the root cause? Are the answers simpler and more under our control than we believe?

I think the answer is clearly yes. I hope the trend of patients asking doctors for the root cause doesn't slow down, and it not only changes how we practice medicine, but also changes our culture to be more empowered.

If you have an acute condition that will kill you right away, see your doctor and listen to them. Our system is a miracle at addressing these acute issues. But that's less than 10% of our spending.

Our system's failure at chronic disease management has economic, national defense, and spiritual effects that are existential.

We need to have respect for our food and our soil. We need to cherish breastfeeding and natural food... We need to ensure kids are away from their phones and outside running around... We need to rejuvenate a grounding in the spiritual...

These are the messages our healthcare leaders should be repeating again and again - and that light is starting to shine through, despite aggressive resistance from hard-working doctors whose income and identity are undeniably tied to the broken status quo.

This post is 100% what I would expect Calley Means to post - he attacks traditional medicine and food and owns a company that pushes wellness products. Seems like a grift that has aircover with MAHA.

This is a serious question as i have no idea who Calley Means is, but what is wrong with what they said here?

Feels like attack the messenger when you can't attack the message.

Thought the article hit on the big point with root cause. Patients should want to know the root cause of their issues. And if a doctor doesn't want to explore that and explain it then the patient should be looking for a better doctor.

A lot of those "attacks" on traditional medicine and food are valid. There's a ton of unhealthy chemicals and junk in our food that the average person has no idea what is entering their body. Traditional medicine wants to push pills to fix everything instead of addressing root cause. I'm sure there's no financial incentives in the transaction between pharma reps visiting doctors and doctors overprescribing pills for everything if we are going to talk grifts.

Yeah, if people are happy with a bandaid approach that's fine. I see it all the time, gave an example with a family member earlier in this thread.

What i don't understand is the hostility towards wanting to find and fix the root cause of an illness through lifestyle modification (diet instead of statins if possible for instance).

As a general matter (I presume there are anecdotal examples), are doctors really hostile to lifestyle modification in their patients as a way to improve health?

I'll wager that nobody has ever been kicked out of a Dr's office for asking if eating more broccoli is a good thing. Or if walking more was a good thing.

But I do think doctors don't want to "waste time" talking about red dye #5 and the effects of it.

Of course there is a wide spectrum of "lifestyle modifications" that fall in between the above. In general I think consumers getting more educated and inquisitive is good, and you have to take some of the bad with the good. I think the medical industry isn't built to incorporate this approach into their 15 minute allotted consultations, which is an impediment and part of the frustration. And I'm sure there is a healthy dose of politics involved as well. Everything today, including medicine and even asking questions, is considered political. And that's all I'll say about that.

Thanks. I think this helps me understand the complaint.

Medicine is highly specialized. Yeah, a general practitioner will provide some general guidance on all sorts of things, but once you get into details or more difficult aspects, they are going to want to send you to a specialist. So, they might tell you that diet and exercise are root causes, but if you want details on how to change your diet, they are going to suggest you talk to a nutritionist or dietitian. Things like that used to annoy me, but I understand why they want to stay in their lane.

Agree that doctors should provide referrals when something falls outside their expertise. That said, the fundamental precepts of diet and exercise should fall squarely in a primary care provider’s wheelhouse.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

And they are time-strapped, with an understanding how often lifestyle modification fails.

I assume this is a big part of it.

"Yeah, sure. You're going to start exercising, eat better, and lost 100 pounds. Totally. But in the meantime, why don't we take this little pill that will do 60% of the same thing starting next week. Just to be safe."

 

[Terminalxylem]

Perhaps most importantly, how does financial stake in the book Good Energy influence Calley Means’ stance?

As I said above, I think it's always good to consider incentives. For all sides. As I said way back about the medical industry as well. I think that's fair.

For Means, I don't know how his financial interests in his book influence his stance. I'd hope he believes what he said in the book and his post is aligned with what he's saying.

After I posted, I see others have it covered.

What do you think about the book’s description? Do you believe the statements are evidence-based?

What if depression, anxiety, infertility, insomnia, heart disease, erectile dysfunction, type 2 diabetes, Alzheimer’s dementia, cancer and many other health conditions that torture and shorten our lives actually have the same root cause?

The truth is, they do. And our ability to prevent and reverse these conditions - and feel incredible NOW - is under our control and simpler than we think. The key is our metabolic function: the way we make energy in our cells and bodies. The ability to make GOOD ENERGY in our bodies is the most important and least understood factor in our overall health, and the biggest blindspot in healthcare.