Donte Stallworth wins Ed Block Courage Award (1 Viewer)

[GridironMenace]

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Donte-...ard-winner.html

I know this happened back in late December, but I haven't seen a thread on this.

Seems to me the media seem to have kept this very hush hush. This is a travesty of epic proportions. Stallworth, was 1.5 times over the legal drinking limit. Drove his car into a pedestrian and KILLED him. Stallworth seemed to defend his actions by essentially blaming the pedestrian by saying that "he warned him by flashing his lights" (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4014292). How many days in jail did Stallworth spend? 24! Twenty-freaking four days. What a joke.

So he was suspended by the NFL for 1 year. He killed a man and only spent 24 days in jail. Not that I condone what Vick did, but he rightfully spent 2 years in prison and he didn't kill a human. An even worse sentence was Plaxico spent 18 months in prison for shooting HIMSELF in the foot.

So Stallworth came back this season, walked around for 6 games and caught 2 passes. To congratulate him, the Baltimore Ravens elected Stallworth the Ed Block award for 2010! Really? For those that don't know, the Ed Block award, according to wiki: "is an annual award presented to selected players in the National Football League (NFL), who are voted by their teammates as role models of inspiration, sportsmanship, and courage." This is a joke and just wrong on every level.

The media should have been all over this. Why did they throw this under the rug? I should have known that this would happen as it was probably orchestrated by a certain player on the team (*cough* Ray Lewis *cough*) that was involved (either directly or indirectly) in a murder.

I have lost all respect for this organization.

 

[Joe Summer]

Who is Ed Block? Did he kill someone too?

 

[Agent575]

Stallworth winning an award is definitely a joke

 

[saintfool]

i have no stake in this but it might be helpful to revisit Stallworth's crime. from Wiki:

On the morning of March 14, 2009, a 2005 Bentley coupé driven by Stallworth struck and killed a pedestrian in Miami Beach, Florida. Stallworth was headed toward the beach when he hit Mario Reyes, 59. Police initially investigated the accident further to see if charges against Stallworth would be warranted.[citation needed]Stallworth admitted to drinking the night prior to the accident. According to early reports Stallworth was legally drunk at the time of the accident;[8] news sources reported that his blood alcohol content was 0.12, over the nationwide legal limit of 0.08.[9][10] Stallworth claims that he flashed his car's headlights to warn Reyes before striking him.[11] A Miami Beach police report said Reyes was not in a crosswalk on busy MacArthur Causeway when he was struck by the black 2005 Bentley Continental GT driven by Stallworth. Police estimated Stallworth was driving about 50 mph in a 40 mph zone.[12] The construction crane operator was trying to catch a bus home after finishing his shift around 7:15 a.m.[13]Stallworth was charged with DUI and second degree manslaughter on April 1, 2009; he surrendered to police on April 2, 2009, and was released on $200,000 bail.[14] He pled guilty, and received a sentence of 30 days in jail, plus 1,000 hours of community service, 2 years of house arrest, and 8 years probation.[15] He has also received a life-time suspension of his Florida state driver's license.[16]On July 10, 2009, Stallworth was released from jail after serving 24 days of a 30-day sentence.The Associated Press reported on June 16, 2009, that Stallworth and the Reyes family reached a financial agreement, avoiding a civil lawsuit. The amount of the settlement was not disclosed.[17]On August 13, 2009, NFL commissioner Roger Goodell stated that Stallworth would be suspended for the entire 2009 season without pay. Stallworth was reinstated after Super Bowl XLIV.[18]A Yahoo! Sports story published August 12, 2010, reported that Stallworth's lawyers indicated he could have fought all charges with "an excellent chance of being found innocent," but that Stallworth chose to be convicted of a felony to do what he felt was morally right. The article later notes that David Cornwell, one of Stallworth's attorneys, felt there was irony in the reaction to Stallworth's decision because the public and media criticized the plea deal without knowing the full story.[19]

I don't want to debate the merits of the case and its outcome but Stallworth was not 1.5x the legal limit, as you wrote, when he struck the pedestrian. Reyes, for his part, ran out across a normally busy 6-lane thoroughfare - which more akin to an interstate or freeway than anything - to catch a bus when he was hit in the far left lane. Without looking at a map or seeing pictures, I don't know if driving 50 mph (10 mph over the speed limit) Donte had any opportunity to avert the accident once he saw Reyes. Stallworth turned himself in, made a deal with law enforcement and the victim's family. He took his punishment and expressed his regret in a sincere way.I don't know what Ray Lewis has to do with any of this. From the Ravens website, commenting about the award:

Since his release, Stallworth has worked diligently to be an example to others of the importance of making the right decisions.“I’m going to continue to do what I said I was going to do from the very first day, to honor Mr. Reyes by really speaking out about how, when you make bad decisions, the things that can happen,” said Stallworth. “Anyone that will listen to my story and what I have to say, if it changes one person’s life, I feel like I’ve done enough.”What’s more, Stallworth missed the first seven games of the season with a broken foot, restricting his integration into the offense.But even though he only has a one-year contract with the Ravens, Stallworth wants to return to Baltimore in 2011.“With me not having as much success on the field, personally, as I would like to have had this year, I understand that the injury had something to do with it,” said Stallworth, who has two receptions for 82 yards in purple and black. “But you’ve got a young quarterback in Joe Flacco, so who wouldn’t want to come back and play with that guy?”Since being signed this offseason, it didn’t take long for Stallworth to ingratiate himself with the Ravens’ family.His big smile is persistent. Stallworth’s laugh is regularly heard in the locker room.And his philosophical thoughts are transmitted through his popular Twitter account, such as Tuesday’s “‘To the mediocre, mediocrity appears great.’ ~Indian proverb.”“I’m just proud of what he has done, and the teammate he has been, and I think the citizen he has been,” said Ravens Head Coach John Harbaugh. “If you read his Twitter stuff – somebody sends me that every now and then – he says some really neat things, some things I think are pretty kind of profound.“He’s a solid man, and I’m glad he’s on our team.”

Sounds like he is being responsible, contrite and showing some maturity. If the Bock award goes to someone that embodies good sportsmanship and courage then he's as good a candidate from the Ravens as any.

 

[GridironMenace]

@ SAINTFOOL

I'm not sure where to start.

1) Did you graduate from 3rd grade math class? If the legel limit is 0.08 and his blood alcohol was .12, isn't that 1.5X over the limit? My math says it is.

2) You said that you don't want to debate the merits of the case, but by posting the occurrences on that night, that is exactly what you are doing.

3) You are making excuses why a guy as hit. Stallworth was 1.5X times over the limit. He was going 25% faster than the speed limit permits (there is that darn math again). And you are making excuses that the guy ran across 6 lanes of traffic (3 one way) so he deserved to get hit. I'm all for Darwinism, but not at the hands of a drunk driver.

4) Here's the part that eats at me. You said that he "took his punishment". 24 days?! 24 days in jail was his punishment. People get longer in jail for just getting a DUI, let alone then killing someone. The fact that he paid off the family should have no bearing on anything. Stallworth deserved longer in jail than Vick (human life>dog life) and Plaxico. Instead he "paid his time" by doing 24 days?

5) And so he smiles when he gets to practice (probably because he got away with manslaughter and a DUI after only serving 24 days) and his twitter account is littered with slightly more confound material than the 5th grade illiterate material we are used to seeing from ignorant NFL players, makes him deserving of receiving an award for being a role model of inspiration, sportsmanship, and courage? Please.

Oh and Ray Lewis has to do with this because he plays for the same team and he got away with murder (again either directly or indirectly). Him and Stallworth have that connection that not many people do. You feel?

 

[BuckeyeChaos]

@ SAINTFOOL

I'm not sure where to start.

1) Did you graduate from 3rd grade math class? If the legel limit is 0.08 and his blood alcohol was .12, isn't that 1.5X over the limit? My math says it is.

2) You said that you don't want to debate the merits of the case, but by posting the occurrences on that night, that is exactly what you are doing.

3) You are making excuses why a guy as hit. Stallworth was 1.5X times over the limit. He was going 25% faster than the speed limit permits (there is that darn math again). And you are making excuses that the guy ran across 6 lanes of traffic (3 one way) so he deserved to get hit. I'm all for Darwinism, but not at the hands of a drunk driver.

4) Here's the part that eats at me. You said that he "took his punishment". 24 days?! 24 days in jail was his punishment. People get longer in jail for just getting a DUI, let alone then killing someone. The fact that he paid off the family should have no bearing on anything. Stallworth deserved longer in jail than Vick (human life>dog life) and Plaxico. Instead he "paid his time" by doing 24 days?

5) And so he smiles when he gets to practice (probably because he got away with manslaughter and a DUI after only serving 24 days) and his twitter account is littered with slightly more confound material than the 5th grade illiterate material we are used to seeing from ignorant NFL players, makes him deserving of receiving an award for being a role model of inspiration, sportsmanship, and courage? Please.

Oh and Ray Lewis has to do with this because he plays for the same team and he got away with murder (again either directly or indirectly). Him and Stallworth have that connection that not many people do. You feel?

You need to go back to 3rd grade and study math. 1.5 times OVER the limit would be .24 (ie .08 + 1.5x .08)

 

[matuski]

@ SAINTFOOL

I'm not sure where to start.

1) Did you graduate from 3rd grade math class? If the legel limit is 0.08 and his blood alcohol was .12, isn't that 1.5X over the limit? My math says it is.

2) You said that you don't want to debate the merits of the case, but by posting the occurrences on that night, that is exactly what you are doing.

3) You are making excuses why a guy as hit. Stallworth was 1.5X times over the limit. He was going 25% faster than the speed limit permits (there is that darn math again). And you are making excuses that the guy ran across 6 lanes of traffic (3 one way) so he deserved to get hit. I'm all for Darwinism, but not at the hands of a drunk driver.

4) Here's the part that eats at me. You said that he "took his punishment". 24 days?! 24 days in jail was his punishment. People get longer in jail for just getting a DUI, let alone then killing someone. The fact that he paid off the family should have no bearing on anything. Stallworth deserved longer in jail than Vick (human life>dog life) and Plaxico. Instead he "paid his time" by doing 24 days?

5) And so he smiles when he gets to practice (probably because he got away with manslaughter and a DUI after only serving 24 days) and his twitter account is littered with slightly more confound material than the 5th grade illiterate material we are used to seeing from ignorant NFL players, makes him deserving of receiving an award for being a role model of inspiration, sportsmanship, and courage? Please.

Oh and Ray Lewis has to do with this because he plays for the same team and he got away with murder (again either directly or indirectly). Him and Stallworth have that connection that not many people do. You feel?

You need to go back to 3rd grade and study math. 1.5 times OVER the limit would be .24 (ie .08 + 1.5x .08)

The article says he was .12. From there you can deduce that the 1.5 figure is referring to 50% over the limit.1.5 times the limit is .12 .

 

[matuski]

On topic.

I absolutely appreciated how Stallworth handled the incident. Took responsibility, made no excuses, made the right moves on top of jail time to do what he could to make it right by the family. From the get go did the right things.

Humble, contrite, sincere.

It takes a type of courage to handle tragedy with this strength.

 

[silentmark]

On topic.I absolutely appreciated how Stallworth handled the incident. Took responsibility, made no excuses, made the right moves on top of jail time to do what he could to make it right by the family. From the get go did the right things.Humble, contrite, sincere.It takes a type of courage to handle tragedy with this strength.

Just goes to show that if you have money and people willing to take it ...

 

[Clarence the barber]

I don't know why Saintfool thought any of his post sets any record straight. Stallworth drove drunk and killed someone. Stallworth had such a poor legal case that even expensive lawyers advised him to plead guilty. That says all there needs to be said about this.

 

[3C's]

@ SAINTFOOL

I'm not sure where to start.

1) Did you graduate from 3rd grade math class? If the legel limit is 0.08 and his blood alcohol was .12, isn't that 1.5X over the limit? My math says it is.

2) You said that you don't want to debate the merits of the case, but by posting the occurrences on that night, that is exactly what you are doing.

3) You are making excuses why a guy as hit. Stallworth was 1.5X times over the limit. He was going 25% faster than the speed limit permits (there is that darn math again). And you are making excuses that the guy ran across 6 lanes of traffic (3 one way) so he deserved to get hit. I'm all for Darwinism, but not at the hands of a drunk driver.

4) Here's the part that eats at me. You said that he "took his punishment". 24 days?! 24 days in jail was his punishment. People get longer in jail for just getting a DUI, let alone then killing someone. The fact that he paid off the family should have no bearing on anything. Stallworth deserved longer in jail than Vick (human life>dog life) and Plaxico. Instead he "paid his time" by doing 24 days?

5) And so he smiles when he gets to practice (probably because he got away with manslaughter and a DUI after only serving 24 days) and his twitter account is littered with slightly more confound material than the 5th grade illiterate material we are used to seeing from ignorant NFL players, makes him deserving of receiving an award for being a role model of inspiration, sportsmanship, and courage? Please.

Oh and Ray Lewis has to do with this because he plays for the same team and he got away with murder (again either directly or indirectly). Him and Stallworth have that connection that not many people do. You feel?

You need to go back to 3rd grade and study math. 1.5 times OVER the limit would be .24 (ie .08 + 1.5x .08)

Maybe english is the problem here. Don't know about you but when I hear "1.5 times" I'm thinking "1.5 * X" or in this case 1.5 * .08, which is .12 "2 times" would be .16, etc.

 

[dgreen]

@ SAINTFOOL

I'm not sure where to start.

1) Did you graduate from 3rd grade math class? If the legel limit is 0.08 and his blood alcohol was .12, isn't that 1.5X over the limit? My math says it is.

2) You said that you don't want to debate the merits of the case, but by posting the occurrences on that night, that is exactly what you are doing.

3) You are making excuses why a guy as hit. Stallworth was 1.5X times over the limit. He was going 25% faster than the speed limit permits (there is that darn math again). And you are making excuses that the guy ran across 6 lanes of traffic (3 one way) so he deserved to get hit. I'm all for Darwinism, but not at the hands of a drunk driver.

4) Here's the part that eats at me. You said that he "took his punishment". 24 days?! 24 days in jail was his punishment. People get longer in jail for just getting a DUI, let alone then killing someone. The fact that he paid off the family should have no bearing on anything. Stallworth deserved longer in jail than Vick (human life>dog life) and Plaxico. Instead he "paid his time" by doing 24 days?

5) And so he smiles when he gets to practice (probably because he got away with manslaughter and a DUI after only serving 24 days) and his twitter account is littered with slightly more confound material than the 5th grade illiterate material we are used to seeing from ignorant NFL players, makes him deserving of receiving an award for being a role model of inspiration, sportsmanship, and courage? Please.

Oh and Ray Lewis has to do with this because he plays for the same team and he got away with murder (again either directly or indirectly). Him and Stallworth have that connection that not many people do. You feel?

You need to go back to 3rd grade and study math. 1.5 times OVER the limit would be .24 (ie .08 + 1.5x .08)

Maybe english is the problem here. Don't know about you but when I hear "1.5 times" I'm thinking "1.5 * X" or in this case 1.5 * .08, which is .12 "2 times" would be .16, etc.

1.5 times <> 1.5 time over

 

[squistion]

I don't know why Saintfool thought any of his post sets any record straight. Stallworth drove drunk and killed someone. Stallworth had such a poor legal case that even expensive lawyers advised him to plead guilty. That says all there needs to be said about this.

No, he went against his lawyers advice.

Overshadowed, though, is what Stallworth did after it was clear he had accidentally killed a man with his car. He ordered his lawyers to accept a plea deal that convicted him of a felony even when evidence showed he had an excellent chance of being found innocent.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=lc-s...ondchance081210

 

[habsfan]

Maybe he was nominated for the things he has done (or tried to do) after this incident? I'm sure there were likely less controversial nominees on the team who were "role models of inspiration, sportsmanship, and courage" but clearly they didn't give him the award because he killed a pedestrian. I'm guessing they are acknowledging him for what he's done since.

The real focus of OP's outrage seems to be the outcome of Stallworth's criminal case and the (lack of) punishment. I can understand that but in some ways it's a different thread. Not to put words in your mouth but you think the guy should be in prison not receiving an award. If he was in prison, he wouldn't have gotten it but he's not. He's moved on and his team mates clearly feel he's doing it in a noble way.

How long society should continue to punish someone after the justice system is done with them, seems to be the real issue here and it's obviously a tricky subject (hence the long threads on Vick, Stallworth and others)...

 

[Clarence the barber]

I don't know why Saintfool thought any of his post sets any record straight. Stallworth drove drunk and killed someone. Stallworth had such a poor legal case that even expensive lawyers advised him to plead guilty. That says all there needs to be said about this.

No, he went against his lawyers advice.

Overshadowed, though, is what Stallworth did after it was clear he had accidentally killed a man with his car. He ordered his lawyers to accept a plea deal that convicted him of a felony even when evidence showed he had an excellent chance of being found innocent.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=lc-s...ondchance081210

The writer's analysis in a puff piece isn't enough to show that at all. What evidence? Any quotes?

 

[squistion]

I don't know why Saintfool thought any of his post sets any record straight. Stallworth drove drunk and killed someone. Stallworth had such a poor legal case that even expensive lawyers advised him to plead guilty. That says all there needs to be said about this.

No, he went against his lawyers advice.

Overshadowed, though, is what Stallworth did after it was clear he had accidentally killed a man with his car. He ordered his lawyers to accept a plea deal that convicted him of a felony even when evidence showed he had an excellent chance of being found innocent.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=lc-s...ondchance081210

The writer's analysis in a puff piece isn't enough to show that at all. What evidence? Any quotes?

How about a link showing that his expensive lawyers advised him to plead guilty, as you contend?

 

[Clarence the barber]

I don't know why Saintfool thought any of his post sets any record straight. Stallworth drove drunk and killed someone. Stallworth had such a poor legal case that even expensive lawyers advised him to plead guilty. That says all there needs to be said about this.

No, he went against his lawyers advice.

Overshadowed, though, is what Stallworth did after it was clear he had accidentally killed a man with his car. He ordered his lawyers to accept a plea deal that convicted him of a felony even when evidence showed he had an excellent chance of being found innocent.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=lc-s...ondchance081210

The writer's analysis in a puff piece isn't enough to show that at all. What evidence? Any quotes?

How about a link showing that his expensive lawyers advised him to plead guilty, as you contend?

That he plead guilty is enough. And nice work italicizing expensive lawyers. It really helped your point.

 

[yetiknight]

I agree with the OP on just about everything. But after we get done debating the math of his BAL, Stalworth did in fact take another man's life. His intent was to have fun and drive fast. The result of his irresponsible acts are going to be a part of his life forever. He owes a family a debt that he can never repay. If he deserved to be punished more, maybe he knows that more than anyone.

 

[squistion]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=lc-s...ondchance081210

The writer's analysis in a puff piece isn't enough to show that at all. What evidence? Any quotes?

How about a link showing that his expensive lawyers advised him to plead guilty, as you contend?

That he plead guilty is enough. And nice work italicizing expensive lawyers. It really helped your point.

Can't provide a link can you? You were the one who first mentioned the expensive lawyers, not me. I have not read or seen anywhere that his lawyers told him to plead guilty - and given the facts of the case it doesn't follow that they would.

 

[higgins]

I agree 100% with saintfool and matuski here. In this day and age, anything goes wrong and there's a lawyer in your face and the public wants a pound of flesh. In reality, stuff happens -- I realize this was a human life, but some context needs to be taken into account (someone running across a highway?).

eta: he went against his lawyer's advice as well.

 

[ldizzle]

OK so maybe that guy shouldnt have been running across the highway/street...

BUT what gets me is that he was drunk when he hit him. He got off really easy, and i feel bad for the family if they heard the news that Stallworth is winning some lame award when he should be in prison

 

[Da Guru]

Stallworth winning an award is definitely a joke

Why? He has not killed anyone in over 12 months and they wanted to honor him.

 

[saintfool]

@ SAINTFOOLI'm not sure where to start. 1) Did you graduate from 3rd grade math class? If the legel limit is 0.08 and his blood alcohol was .12, isn't that 1.5X over the limit? My math says it is.2) You said that you don't want to debate the merits of the case, but by posting the occurrences on that night, that is exactly what you are doing. 3) You are making excuses why a guy as hit. Stallworth was 1.5X times over the limit. He was going 25% faster than the speed limit permits (there is that darn math again). And you are making excuses that the guy ran across 6 lanes of traffic (3 one way) so he deserved to get hit. I'm all for Darwinism, but not at the hands of a drunk driver.4) Here's the part that eats at me. You said that he "took his punishment". 24 days?! 24 days in jail was his punishment. People get longer in jail for just getting a DUI, let alone then killing someone. The fact that he paid off the family should have no bearing on anything. Stallworth deserved longer in jail than Vick (human life>dog life) and Plaxico. Instead he "paid his time" by doing 24 days?5) And so he smiles when he gets to practice (probably because he got away with manslaughter and a DUI after only serving 24 days) and his twitter account is littered with slightly more confound material than the 5th grade illiterate material we are used to seeing from ignorant NFL players, makes him deserving of receiving an award for being a role model of inspiration, sportsmanship, and courage? Please.Oh and Ray Lewis has to do with this because he plays for the same team and he got away with murder (again either directly or indirectly). Him and Stallworth have that connection that not many people do. You feel?

1. You've clarified your math for me, guy, and I appreciate it. Really I do. Really. 2. I think you're missing the point.3. I'm not making excuses but rather suggesting it isn't as simple as you want to make it out. I don't think Reyes "deserved" to be hit but he did put himself at risk. Stallworth's mistakes - exceeding the speed limit, alcohol, etc - likely contributed to the accident but so did running across a 6 lane highway. 4. Stallworth plead guilty. He took the punishment the Florida legal system meted out. His sentencing was not at his discretion. I do think 24 days in jail is rather paltry. He's on probation, doing community service, and serving as a spokesperson for related causes as a result. It's not enough but he's doing something.5. Stallworth was a good guy by most accounts before this. He accepted responsibility for his actions and made a point of acknowledging that in the media following it. He handled it with a modicum of class and professionalism, which is maybe why he got the award from his teammates. I don't share your opinion about "ignorant" NFL players but then I don't see what Ray Lewis involvement in a brutal homicide has to do with this either. You're stretching reason (and good taste) to fit your agenda here, I think. So, no, I don't "feel" you.At the end of the day, I don't have a real problem with Stallworth getting a largely meaningless award from his teammates.

 

[Bri]

I hate, hate, hate that he (and Little) has an opportunity to play in the NFL.

This award is fine by me though if it means he's gone out of his way this past year to be an extra good individual. He should be! I can't wholly imagine being him and having to move on from this, but I'm confident he'd better "be a good boy" from now on. I don't consider it an accomplishment so the word "award" bugs me, but OK good Donte you've got one year done. Now do it again in 2011 and every year til you retire and are no longer eligible.

 

[saintfool]

I hate, hate, hate that he (and Little) has an opportunity to play in the NFL. This award is fine by me though if it means he's gone out of his way this past year to be an extra good individual. He should be! I can't wholly imagine being him and having to move on from this, but I'm confident he'd better "be a good boy" from now on. I don't consider it an accomplishment so the word "award" bugs me, but OK good Donte you've got one year done. Now do it again in 2011 and every year til you retire and are no longer eligible.

i would agree with most of what you're saying here.

 

[Clarence the barber]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=lc-s...ondchance081210

The writer's analysis in a puff piece isn't enough to show that at all. What evidence? Any quotes?

How about a link showing that his expensive lawyers advised him to plead guilty, as you contend?

That he plead guilty is enough. And nice work italicizing expensive lawyers. It really helped your point.

Can't provide a link can you? You were the one who first mentioned the expensive lawyers, not me. I have not read or seen anywhere that his lawyers told him to plead guilty - and given the facts of the case it doesn't follow that they would.

Wow, you changed my mind. Maybe Stallworth got a public defender. Afterall, I didn't provide you with a link that his lawyer was expensive either. Maybe it was free?

 

[squistion]

Can't provide a link can you? You were the one who first mentioned the expensive lawyers, not me. I have not read or seen anywhere that his lawyers told him to plead guilty - and given the facts of the case it doesn't follow that they would.

Wow, you changed my mind. Maybe Stallworth got a public defender. Afterall, I didn't provide you with a link that his lawyer was expensive either. Maybe it was free?

Poor Clarence. You made a statement which was false that you can't support and you keep trying to dance around it - but you can't. Either provide a link to back up what you say, or give it up - as the expression goes, when you are in a hole, quit digging.

 

[Dexter Manley]

I've read a lot about this case and come to the conclusion that it wouldn't of mattered if Stallworth was sober, the guy would of still been killed as he basically ran into his car and hitting him was completely unavoidable.

And in some countries Stallworth wouldn't have even been arrested at the scene, since the victim illegally ran across a busy freeway.

This isn't anything remotely close to the Leonard Little incident or the guy who killed that Angels pitcher.

I judge Stallworth's character by how he reacted after the accident. He didn't flee the scene. He accepted full responsibility and accepted a felony plea deal when he probably would of been found innocent of the involuntary manslaughter charge if he went to trial. He made amends to the victims family. He's been repentant. And he has to live every day the rest of his life knowing that he is partially responsible for killing a guy.

I understand drunk driving is a very emotional subject to a lot of people, but when you look at it logically without emotion, at worst Stallworth received an appropriate punishment. The guy who was killed was engaging in a significantly more reckless behavior than Stallworth.

And I don't care about the award.

 

[Football Critic]

Vick, fights dogs = Gets Crucified

Stallworth, Kills a human being = Gets an Award

A Courage award?

Yes I am a pitbull owner, she is my child, but even I can see this is screwed up that Vick lost everything and a year and some in jail time, yet Donte kills someone and gets 30 days and an award.

If you need anymore proof that this world is not what it seems, their it is.

Screw Donte, screw the award, screw the Baltimore Ravens for even nominating him, screw the justice system, and screw anyone who agrees that he should get an award.

I have more issues with killing humans then a dog anyday of the week and twice on Sunday.

 

[Da Guru]

I've read a lot about this case and come to the conclusion that it wouldn't of mattered if Stallworth was sober, the guy would of still been killed as he basically ran into his car and hitting him was completely unavoidable. And in some countries Stallworth wouldn't have even been arrested at the scene, since the victim illegally ran across a busy freeway.This isn't anything remotely close to the Leonard Little incident or the guy who killed that Angels pitcher. I judge Stallworth's character by how he reacted after the accident. He didn't flee the scene. He accepted full responsibility and accepted a felony plea deal when he probably would of been found innocent of the involuntary manslaughter charge if he went to trial. He made amends to the victims family. He's been repentant. And he has to live every day the rest of his life knowing that he is partially responsible for killing a guy.I understand drunk driving is a very emotional subject to a lot of people, but when you look at it logically without emotion, at worst Stallworth received an appropriate punishment. The guy who was killed was engaging in a significantly more reckless behavior than Stallworth.And I don't care about the award.

I somewhat agree here. Stallworth got drunk the night before, went to bed and got up early to go fishing or something and was still over the legal limit. Pretty sure I have done that a couple of times without thinking I was drunk driving.

 

[babydemon90]

Vick, fights dogs = Gets CrucifiedStallworth, Kills a human being = Gets an AwardA Courage award?Yes I am a pitbull owner, she is my child, but even I can see this is screwed up that Vick lost everything and a year and some in jail time, yet Donte kills someone and gets 30 days and an award.If you need anymore proof that this world is not what it seems, their it is.Screw Donte, screw the award, screw the Baltimore Ravens for even nominating him, screw the justice system, and screw anyone who agrees that he should get an award.I have more issues with killing humans then a dog anyday of the week and twice on Sunday.

didn't Vick get the courage award last year?

 

[Football Critic]

I've read a lot about this case and come to the conclusion that it wouldn't of mattered if Stallworth was sober, the guy would of still been killed as he basically ran into his car and hitting him was completely unavoidable.

And in some countries Stallworth wouldn't have even been arrested at the scene, since the victim illegally ran across a busy freeway.

This isn't anything remotely close to the Leonard Little incident or the guy who killed that Angels pitcher.

I judge Stallworth's character by how he reacted after the accident. He didn't flee the scene. He accepted full responsibility and accepted a felony plea deal when he probably would of been found innocent of the involuntary manslaughter charge if he went to trial. He made amends to the victims family. He's been repentant. And he has to live every day the rest of his life knowing that he is partially responsible for killing a guy.

I understand drunk driving is a very emotional subject to a lot of people, but when you look at it logically without emotion, at worst Stallworth received an appropriate punishment. The guy who was killed was engaging in a significantly more reckless behavior than Stallworth.

And I don't care about the award.

I somewhat agree here. Stallworth got drunk the night before, went to bed and got up early to go fishing or something and was still over the legal limit. Pretty sure I have done that a couple of times without thinking I was drunk driving.

Then you should be in jail, as it show ignorance not being educated about what it means to drive under the influence, that statement sickens me.

 

[Dexter Manley]

I've read a lot about this case and come to the conclusion that it wouldn't of mattered if Stallworth was sober, the guy would of still been killed as he basically ran into his car and hitting him was completely unavoidable.

And in some countries Stallworth wouldn't have even been arrested at the scene, since the victim illegally ran across a busy freeway.

This isn't anything remotely close to the Leonard Little incident or the guy who killed that Angels pitcher.

I judge Stallworth's character by how he reacted after the accident. He didn't flee the scene. He accepted full responsibility and accepted a felony plea deal when he probably would of been found innocent of the involuntary manslaughter charge if he went to trial. He made amends to the victims family. He's been repentant. And he has to live every day the rest of his life knowing that he is partially responsible for killing a guy.

I understand drunk driving is a very emotional subject to a lot of people, but when you look at it logically without emotion, at worst Stallworth received an appropriate punishment. The guy who was killed was engaging in a significantly more reckless behavior than Stallworth.

And I don't care about the award.

I somewhat agree here. Stallworth got drunk the night before, went to bed and got up early to go fishing or something and was still over the legal limit. Pretty sure I have done that a couple of times without thinking I was drunk driving.

Then you should be in jail, as it show ignorance not being educated about what it means to drive under the influence, that statement sickens me.

 

[Football Critic]

Vick, fights dogs = Gets CrucifiedStallworth, Kills a human being = Gets an AwardA Courage award?Yes I am a pitbull owner, she is my child, but even I can see this is screwed up that Vick lost everything and a year and some in jail time, yet Donte kills someone and gets 30 days and an award.If you need anymore proof that this world is not what it seems, their it is.Screw Donte, screw the award, screw the Baltimore Ravens for even nominating him, screw the justice system, and screw anyone who agrees that he should get an award.I have more issues with killing humans then a dog anyday of the week and twice on Sunday.

didn't Vick get the courage award last year?

If he did I am unaware and he shouldnt of, however he paid a bigger price for doing far less, killing a human other then in self defense is the worst crime a person can do.

 

[Clarence the barber]

Can't provide a link can you? You were the one who first mentioned the expensive lawyers, not me. I have not read or seen anywhere that his lawyers told him to plead guilty - and given the facts of the case it doesn't follow that they would.

Wow, you changed my mind. Maybe Stallworth got a public defender. Afterall, I didn't provide you with a link that his lawyer was expensive either. Maybe it was free?

Poor Clarence. You made a statement which was false that you can't support and you keep trying to dance around it - but you can't. Either provide a link to back up what you say, or give it up - as the expression goes, when you are in a hole, quit digging.

Look where you are standing, and I'm not talking about your crappy FF website either. It's common sense. You really don't think you made statements that were false? You really think the mere ideas a writer in a puff piece is convincing to you? Not a single quote. Not a single piece of actual data. If you really buy that type of stuff, I have a bridge to sell you. You really think Stallworth didn't hire a lawyer to keep him from serving time? Really? He couldn't win. Even with a professional athlete's lawyer. That should tell you something. If you think I'm wrong, that's fine. Not a big deal. No reason to keep arguing. We see it differently.

 

[Dexter Manley]

I've read a lot about this case and come to the conclusion that it wouldn't of mattered if Stallworth was sober, the guy would of still been killed as he basically ran into his car and hitting him was completely unavoidable. And in some countries Stallworth wouldn't have even been arrested at the scene, since the victim illegally ran across a busy freeway.This isn't anything remotely close to the Leonard Little incident or the guy who killed that Angels pitcher. I judge Stallworth's character by how he reacted after the accident. He didn't flee the scene. He accepted full responsibility and accepted a felony plea deal when he probably would of been found innocent of the involuntary manslaughter charge if he went to trial. He made amends to the victims family. He's been repentant. And he has to live every day the rest of his life knowing that he is partially responsible for killing a guy.I understand drunk driving is a very emotional subject to a lot of people, but when you look at it logically without emotion, at worst Stallworth received an appropriate punishment. The guy who was killed was engaging in a significantly more reckless behavior than Stallworth.And I don't care about the award.

I somewhat agree here. Stallworth got drunk the night before, went to bed and got up early to go fishing or something and was still over the legal limit. Pretty sure I have done that a couple of times without thinking I was drunk driving.

Yes. It wasn't like he was out at the club all night and then chose to drive drunk. He went to bed, woke up early, and went out for breakfast. After reading what he drank the night before, I don't think most reasonable people would think they would still be over the legal limit in the morning.

 

[Football Critic]

I've read a lot about this case and come to the conclusion that it wouldn't of mattered if Stallworth was sober, the guy would of still been killed as he basically ran into his car and hitting him was completely unavoidable. And in some countries Stallworth wouldn't have even been arrested at the scene, since the victim illegally ran across a busy freeway.This isn't anything remotely close to the Leonard Little incident or the guy who killed that Angels pitcher. I judge Stallworth's character by how he reacted after the accident. He didn't flee the scene. He accepted full responsibility and accepted a felony plea deal when he probably would of been found innocent of the involuntary manslaughter charge if he went to trial. He made amends to the victims family. He's been repentant. And he has to live every day the rest of his life knowing that he is partially responsible for killing a guy.I understand drunk driving is a very emotional subject to a lot of people, but when you look at it logically without emotion, at worst Stallworth received an appropriate punishment. The guy who was killed was engaging in a significantly more reckless behavior than Stallworth.And I don't care about the award.

I somewhat agree here. Stallworth got drunk the night before, went to bed and got up early to go fishing or something and was still over the legal limit. Pretty sure I have done that a couple of times without thinking I was drunk driving.

Yes. It wasn't like he was out at the club all night and then chose to drive drunk. He went to bed, woke up early, and went out for breakfast. After reading what he drank the night before, I don't think most reasonable people would think they would still be over the legal limit in the morning.

Most reasonable people would not defend a person consuming then getting behind a wheel, then killing someone.

 

[Steed]

I've read a lot about this case and come to the conclusion that it wouldn't of mattered if Stallworth was sober, the guy would of still been killed as he basically ran into his car and hitting him was completely unavoidable. And in some countries Stallworth wouldn't have even been arrested at the scene, since the victim illegally ran across a busy freeway.This isn't anything remotely close to the Leonard Little incident or the guy who killed that Angels pitcher. I judge Stallworth's character by how he reacted after the accident. He didn't flee the scene. He accepted full responsibility and accepted a felony plea deal when he probably would of been found innocent of the involuntary manslaughter charge if he went to trial. He made amends to the victims family. He's been repentant. And he has to live every day the rest of his life knowing that he is partially responsible for killing a guy.I understand drunk driving is a very emotional subject to a lot of people, but when you look at it logically without emotion, at worst Stallworth received an appropriate punishment. The guy who was killed was engaging in a significantly more reckless behavior than Stallworth.And I don't care about the award.

I somewhat agree here. Stallworth got drunk the night before, went to bed and got up early to go fishing or something and was still over the legal limit. Pretty sure I have done that a couple of times without thinking I was drunk driving.

I thought Stallworth was coming home from the Fountainbleu after a long night of partying?

 

[Football Critic]

Can't provide a link can you? You were the one who first mentioned the expensive lawyers, not me. I have not read or seen anywhere that his lawyers told him to plead guilty - and given the facts of the case it doesn't follow that they would.

Wow, you changed my mind. Maybe Stallworth got a public defender. Afterall, I didn't provide you with a link that his lawyer was expensive either. Maybe it was free?

Poor Clarence. You made a statement which was false that you can't support and you keep trying to dance around it - but you can't. Either provide a link to back up what you say, or give it up - as the expression goes, when you are in a hole, quit digging.

Look where you are standing, and I'm not talking about your crappy FF website either. It's common sense. You really don't think you made statements that were false? You really think the mere ideas a writer in a puff piece is convincing to you? Not a single quote. Not a single piece of actual data. If you really buy that type of stuff, I have a bridge to sell you. You really think Stallworth didn't hire a lawyer to keep him from serving time? Really? He couldn't win. Even with a professional athlete's lawyer. That should tell you something. If you think I'm wrong, that's fine. Not a big deal. No reason to keep arguing. We see it differently.

Whats with the cheap shot on a discussion board, but then again we are in a thread defending drinking and driving to a point.Only thing that is common sense, is DO NOT drink and drive.Only 35% of americans have common sense, it has been taught since we were children, do not drink then drive, END OF STORY.NO DEFENSE FOR DRINKING AND DRIVING, if your defending it you either are guilty of it yourself, or do not understand the possible outcomes of doing so.

 

[squistion]

Can't provide a link can you? You were the one who first mentioned the expensive lawyers, not me. I have not read or seen anywhere that his lawyers told him to plead guilty - and given the facts of the case it doesn't follow that they would.

Wow, you changed my mind. Maybe Stallworth got a public defender. Afterall, I didn't provide you with a link that his lawyer was expensive either. Maybe it was free?

Poor Clarence. You made a statement which was false that you can't support and you keep trying to dance around it - but you can't. Either provide a link to back up what you say, or give it up - as the expression goes, when you are in a hole, quit digging.

Look where you are standing, and I'm not talking about your crappy FF website either. It's common sense. You really don't think you made statements that were false? You really think the mere ideas a writer in a puff piece is convincing to you? Not a single quote. Not a single piece of actual data. If you really buy that type of stuff, I have a bridge to sell you. You really think Stallworth didn't hire a lawyer to keep him from serving time? Really? He couldn't win. Even with a professional athlete's lawyer. That should tell you something. If you think I'm wrong, that's fine. Not a big deal. No reason to keep arguing. We see it differently.

Keep digging Clarence. And taking a cheap shot at a website I write for doesn't really help your argument any.

 

[Dexter Manley]

I've read a lot about this case and come to the conclusion that it wouldn't of mattered if Stallworth was sober, the guy would of still been killed as he basically ran into his car and hitting him was completely unavoidable. And in some countries Stallworth wouldn't have even been arrested at the scene, since the victim illegally ran across a busy freeway.This isn't anything remotely close to the Leonard Little incident or the guy who killed that Angels pitcher. I judge Stallworth's character by how he reacted after the accident. He didn't flee the scene. He accepted full responsibility and accepted a felony plea deal when he probably would of been found innocent of the involuntary manslaughter charge if he went to trial. He made amends to the victims family. He's been repentant. And he has to live every day the rest of his life knowing that he is partially responsible for killing a guy.I understand drunk driving is a very emotional subject to a lot of people, but when you look at it logically without emotion, at worst Stallworth received an appropriate punishment. The guy who was killed was engaging in a significantly more reckless behavior than Stallworth.And I don't care about the award.

I somewhat agree here. Stallworth got drunk the night before, went to bed and got up early to go fishing or something and was still over the legal limit. Pretty sure I have done that a couple of times without thinking I was drunk driving.

Yes. It wasn't like he was out at the club all night and then chose to drive drunk. He went to bed, woke up early, and went out for breakfast. After reading what he drank the night before, I don't think most reasonable people would think they would still be over the legal limit in the morning.

Most reasonable people would not defend a person consuming then getting behind a wheel, then killing someone.

I disagree. Most of the anti-drunk driving/neo-prohibitionists are completely unreasonable, imo. The drunk driving laws in this country are severely flawed, and the Stallworth incident is a prime example. From all accounts I've read, this accident was unavoidable whether Stallworth had been drinking the night before or not. The guy illegally crossing the street in a spectacularly reckless fashion was primarily responsible for his own death (and some would say 100% responsible).

 

[Dexter Manley]

Can't provide a link can you? You were the one who first mentioned the expensive lawyers, not me. I have not read or seen anywhere that his lawyers told him to plead guilty - and given the facts of the case it doesn't follow that they would.

Wow, you changed my mind. Maybe Stallworth got a public defender. Afterall, I didn't provide you with a link that his lawyer was expensive either. Maybe it was free?

Poor Clarence. You made a statement which was false that you can't support and you keep trying to dance around it - but you can't. Either provide a link to back up what you say, or give it up - as the expression goes, when you are in a hole, quit digging.

Look where you are standing, and I'm not talking about your crappy FF website either. It's common sense. You really don't think you made statements that were false? You really think the mere ideas a writer in a puff piece is convincing to you? Not a single quote. Not a single piece of actual data. If you really buy that type of stuff, I have a bridge to sell you. You really think Stallworth didn't hire a lawyer to keep him from serving time? Really? He couldn't win. Even with a professional athlete's lawyer. That should tell you something. If you think I'm wrong, that's fine. Not a big deal. No reason to keep arguing. We see it differently.

Whats with the cheap shot on a discussion board, but then again we are in a thread defending drinking and driving to a point.Only thing that is common sense, is DO NOT drink and drive.

Only 35% of americans have common sense, it has been taught since we were children, do not drink then drive, END OF STORY.

NO DEFENSE FOR DRINKING AND DRIVING, if your defending it you either are guilty of it yourself, or do not understand the possible outcomes of doing so.

Major logic fail here. Every day, people who drink and drive are involved in accidents that aren't their fault.

 

[Da Guru]

I've read a lot about this case and come to the conclusion that it wouldn't of mattered if Stallworth was sober, the guy would of still been killed as he basically ran into his car and hitting him was completely unavoidable.

And in some countries Stallworth wouldn't have even been arrested at the scene, since the victim illegally ran across a busy freeway.

This isn't anything remotely close to the Leonard Little incident or the guy who killed that Angels pitcher.

I judge Stallworth's character by how he reacted after the accident. He didn't flee the scene. He accepted full responsibility and accepted a felony plea deal when he probably would of been found innocent of the involuntary manslaughter charge if he went to trial. He made amends to the victims family. He's been repentant. And he has to live every day the rest of his life knowing that he is partially responsible for killing a guy.

I understand drunk driving is a very emotional subject to a lot of people, but when you look at it logically without emotion, at worst Stallworth received an appropriate punishment. The guy who was killed was engaging in a significantly more reckless behavior than Stallworth.

And I don't care about the award.

I somewhat agree here. Stallworth got drunk the night before, went to bed and got up early to go fishing or something and was still over the legal limit. Pretty sure I have done that a couple of times without thinking I was drunk driving.

Then you should be in jail, as it show ignorance not being educated about what it means to drive under the influence, that statement sickens me.

Why should I be in jail? Just recalling staying out late partying 1-2am, getting up and driving to work the next day at 6:30am. I may have been over or may not. Got up at the alarm, had a cup of coffee and went to work and was not really thinking about the night before. Of course this was in my 20s.

 

[gandalas]

I've read a lot about this case and come to the conclusion that it wouldn't of mattered if Stallworth was sober, the guy would of still been killed as he basically ran into his car and hitting him was completely unavoidable.

And in some countries Stallworth wouldn't have even been arrested at the scene, since the victim illegally ran across a busy freeway.

This isn't anything remotely close to the Leonard Little incident or the guy who killed that Angels pitcher.

I judge Stallworth's character by how he reacted after the accident. He didn't flee the scene. He accepted full responsibility and accepted a felony plea deal when he probably would of been found innocent of the involuntary manslaughter charge if he went to trial. He made amends to the victims family. He's been repentant. And he has to live every day the rest of his life knowing that he is partially responsible for killing a guy.

I understand drunk driving is a very emotional subject to a lot of people, but when you look at it logically without emotion, at worst Stallworth received an appropriate punishment. The guy who was killed was engaging in a significantly more reckless behavior than Stallworth.

And I don't care about the award.

I somewhat agree here. Stallworth got drunk the night before, went to bed and got up early to go fishing or something and was still over the legal limit. Pretty sure I have done that a couple of times without thinking I was drunk driving.

Yes. It wasn't like he was out at the club all night and then chose to drive drunk. He went to bed, woke up early, and went out for breakfast. After reading what he drank the night before, I don't think most reasonable people would think they would still be over the legal limit in the morning.

Most reasonable people would not defend a person consuming then getting behind a wheel, then killing someone.

And good thing that is not what happened here! :readingcomprehensionfailure:He drank the night before, DID NOT DRIVE, went to bed, woke up in the morning, and still was registering as over the legal limit, even though he had likely not had a drink in 6+ hours.

If that is really what happened, then I am guilty of this as well. How many times have I stayed up to 2 or 3 in the morning drinking, and then had to go to work in the morning? No, not drank and drove, but Drank at home, SLEPT at home, and then Drove in the morning, to work or wherever else...

Not so much lately, but most people were in college at some point in their life and have had similar experiences.

 

[fatness]

Baltimore Ravens wide receiver Donte' Stallworth was voted by his teammates as the Ed Block Courage Award winner.The award is given annually by the NFL-supported charity to recognize courage in the NFL with players from each team voted who "exemplifies a commitment to sportsmanship and courage."

I assume the Ravens' players know what they're doing in voting for this award.

 

[scrumptrulescent]

Giving him a courage award is an insult. This guy has already used up any and all award/rewards possible. As stated before, he should be in jail right now.

I don't blame him for not being in prison right now, that's the fault of our broken legal system. But if this guy had any honor whatsoever he would not accept something like this.

Also, on a different note, I can't wait for the day that Ray Lewis retires and goes away. Maybe he should go into law after football, or selling used cars. There's not another guy that gives off such a sleazy, fake feel imo.

 

[fridayfrenzy]

I'm not sure where to start.

1) Did you graduate from 3rd grade math class? If the legel limit is 0.08 and his blood alcohol was .12, isn't that 1.5X over the limit? My math says it is.

Your wording is incorrect, so maybe you should check your 3rd grade english.He wasn't 1.5x OVER the limit. He was 1.5x the limit.

He was 0.5x OVER the limit

 

[hxperson]

Whats with the cheap shot on a discussion board, but then again we are in a thread defending drinking and driving to a point.

Only thing that is common sense, is DO NOT drink and drive.

Only 35% of americans have common sense, it has been taught since we were children, do not drink then drive, END OF STORY.

NO DEFENSE FOR DRINKING AND DRIVING, if your defending it you either are guilty of it yourself, or do not understand the possible outcomes of doing so.

Major logic fail here. Every day, people who drink and drive are involved in accidents that aren't their fault.

A lot of people in here making way too many assumptions about Stallworth, what happened that night, and the trial without any factual basis. The facts are that the accident occurred in March 2009, and the award is for his actions during the 2010-2011 season. I'd like to hear some evidence of bad things he did in 2010-2011 before I call it a joke.

 

[The_Man]

Vick, fights dogs = Gets Crucified

Stallworth, Kills a human being = Gets an Award

A Courage award?

Yes I am a pitbull owner, she is my child, but even I can see this is screwed up that Vick lost everything and a year and some in jail time, yet Donte kills someone and gets 30 days and an award.

If you need anymore proof that this world is not what it seems, their it is.

Screw Donte, screw the award, screw the Baltimore Ravens for even nominating him, screw the justice system, and screw anyone who agrees that he should get an award.

I have more issues with killing humans then a dog anyday of the week and twice on Sunday.

Vick was voted the winner of this award last year by his Philly teammates.http://www.edblock.org/content/michael-vick

People flip out too much over this. Every year, teams vote for either a guy who comes back from injury or a guy who comes back from being suspended for breaking the law or violating the substance abuse policy. The idea is to recognize guys who have overcome hardship, and inside an NFL locker room, overcoming injury or criminal conviction is what counts as hardship. Let's face it - guys playing NFL football generally aren't overcoming hardship the way most average people define it.

 

[scrumptrulescent]

Vick, fights dogs = Gets Crucified

Stallworth, Kills a human being = Gets an Award

A Courage award?

Yes I am a pitbull owner, she is my child, but even I can see this is screwed up that Vick lost everything and a year and some in jail time, yet Donte kills someone and gets 30 days and an award.

If you need anymore proof that this world is not what it seems, their it is.

Screw Donte, screw the award, screw the Baltimore Ravens for even nominating him, screw the justice system, and screw anyone who agrees that he should get an award.

I have more issues with killing humans then a dog anyday of the week and twice on Sunday.

Vick was voted the winner of this award last year by his Philly teammates.http://www.edblock.org/content/michael-vick

People flip out too much over this. Every year, teams vote for either a guy who comes back from injury or a guy who comes back from being suspended for breaking the law or violating the substance abuse policy. The idea is to recognize guys who have overcome hardship, and inside an NFL locker room, overcoming injury or criminal conviction is what counts as hardship. Let's face it - guys playing NFL football generally aren't overcoming hardship the way most average people define it.

Wha? Vick went to Federal pound me in the *** Prison for 21 months. He had the book thrown at him. The guy has hit rock bottom and now is getting a second chance, making the most of it. Stallworth was drunk and ran over someone, and he barely received a slap on the wrist for it. Didn't have to pay for his crime at all while Vick paid with hard time. I cannot compare the 2 men.