Double serpentine (1 Viewer)

[Verbal Kint]

For the past couple years, a couple guys in my redraft league have requested that we switch to a double serpentine draft, arguing that the guys who draft 8-12 generally have marginal teams compared to those who draft 1-4. In looking at the total points by division for the last couple years, there point is valid. the average team in division 3 has approx. 150 points less/season than the average team in division 1.

I'm interested to see if others do this in their leagues and what the results are. Does it balance out or swing it too much in favor of guys that draft last?

TIA

 

[JAA]

example?

 

[Sinrman]

Err, double serpentine? I'm a little slow.. what's that? Always thought regular ol' serpentine (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1) was about the fairest it could get...

 

[Verbal Kint]

example?

Instead of snaking every round, it only snakes at the end of odd-numbered rounds 1

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That way, the guy who drafts 12th also gets the 13th & 25th pick instead of the normal draft where he gets 12, 13 & 36.

Conversely the guy who drafts 1st gets picks 1,24, 36 instead of 1,24, 25.

The supposition is that the top 4-5 picks in the draft are so much higher than those available at the end of rd 1 that let the last guy draft first in the next 2 rounds balances it out more.

 

[Borat]

Given the dropoff after the top 3 picks, it actually does seem a little more fair. But the big dropoff is going to change from year to year, and I'd probably aim for year-to-year consistency above all else, assuming this is the same group of guys every year.

 

[Warpig]

For the past couple years, a couple guys in my redraft league have requested that we switch to a double serpentine draft, arguing that the guys who draft 8-12 generally have marginal teams compared to those who draft 1-4. In looking at the total points by division for the last couple years, there point is valid. the average team in division 3 has approx. 150 points less/season than the average team in division 1.

I'm interested to see if others do this in their leagues and what the results are. Does it balance out or swing it too much in favor of guys that draft last?

TIA

So the same guys that pick 1 - 4 win every year? If a team is scoring more points than the rest of the guys, wouldn't they be winning more therfore putting them at the bottom of the draft? I don't understand their point. I actually like picking at the bottom because there is always value there with the back to back picks. Sure it would be nice to have a top 4 pick, but would you rather have a top 4 pick or be winning?

 

[lions327]

I am fine with a regular serpentine draft, and I feel I can have a good draft regardless of where I draft. Obviously, we all probably have some preference over others, but in the big picture, if you draft well, it doesn't matter where you draft from.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

You can come up with draft orders that are fairer than a serpentine draft, but IMO the very small increase in fairness is not worth the increase in complexity.

If you're willing to increase complexity in your league by a bit, do it by switching to an auction rather than by jumbling up the draft order. JMHO.

 

[inca911]

If you're willing to increase complexity in your league by a bit, do it by switching to an auction rather than by jumbling up the draft order. JMHO.

Auction is the only way to truly remove draft order variability. Being #5 this year is worse than being #3. That's not skill, that's luck.

 

[Mooks77]

If you're willing to increase complexity in your league by a bit, do it by switching to an auction rather than by jumbling up the draft order. JMHO.

Auction is the only way to truly remove draft order variability. Being #5 this year is worse than being #3. That's not skill, that's luck.

I agree completely. Auction is the way to go. The only drawback is everyone has to be there.

 

[ShadowMaster]

FIRST, let me just say that I think you can win from ANY draft slot if you pick well and get some breaks. Auction is one option, but if you feel your winning or loosing based on the luck of your draft slot then you have some serious confidence issues and your out of your element with most in the Shark Pool.

Divsion Breakdown

Our original breakdown was to take the front half of the teams into division 1 and the second half into division 2. 2 years ago, we adjusted that to be Even slots for one division and Odd slots for the second. We found this to be more balanced in the long run.

Serpentine Options

I have never used the order you suggested; however, in my first ever fantasy league we used what I call a "Staggered Serpentine" order. I crunched the numbers once and there is a point where this system will be exactly equal for all slots. Of memory, I think for 10 team it was 21 rounds of drafting.

Anyway...... the format. Your going to stagger the line forward one slot in EACH direction each round with the first slot going to the back of the line.

1234567890

0987654321

2345678901

9876543210

3456789012

8765432109

4567890123

7654321098

etc......

Again, it looks f'ed up - but if you assign a value to each slot and crunch it- it will even out at some point. When is based on the number of teams.

 

[thayman]

yeah in one league I'm in we tried the double serp draft. It was OK, a bit confusing at times, but OK. I don't think it creates too much parity, though....If you want a drastic change I agree with previous posters, go auction.

 

[Verbal Kint]

For the past couple years, a couple guys in my redraft league have requested that we switch to a double serpentine draft, arguing that the guys who draft 8-12 generally have marginal teams compared to those who draft 1-4. In looking at the total points by division for the last couple years, there point is valid. the average team in division 3 has approx. 150 points less/season than the average team in division 1.

I'm interested to see if others do this in their leagues and what the results are. Does it balance out or swing it too much in favor of guys that draft last?

TIA

So the same guys that pick 1 - 4 win every year? If a team is scoring more points than the rest of the guys, wouldn't they be winning more therfore putting them at the bottom of the draft? I don't understand their point. I actually like picking at the bottom because there is always value there with the back to back picks. Sure it would be nice to have a top 4 pick, but would you rather have a top 4 pick or be winning?

Its a redraft, and each year's draft position is determined by lottery. Ususually the guys that draft in the top 4 have the best teams in terms of total points.

 

[thayman]

For the past couple years, a couple guys in my redraft league have requested that we switch to a double serpentine draft, arguing that the guys who draft 8-12 generally have marginal teams compared to those who draft 1-4. In looking at the total points by division for the last couple years, there point is valid. the average team in division 3 has approx. 150 points less/season than the average team in division 1.

I'm interested to see if others do this in their leagues and what the results are. Does it balance out or swing it too much in favor of guys that draft last?

TIA

So the same guys that pick 1 - 4 win every year? If a team is scoring more points than the rest of the guys, wouldn't they be winning more therfore putting them at the bottom of the draft? I don't understand their point. I actually like picking at the bottom because there is always value there with the back to back picks. Sure it would be nice to have a top 4 pick, but would you rather have a top 4 pick or be winning?

Its a redraft, and each year's draft position is determined by lottery. Ususually the guys that draft in the top 4 have the best teams in terms of total points.

If I read this right, if I won your league I pick 1st? If so, why don't you just reverse it. If you win you pick last, or go to a lottery draw to see where everyone picks.

 

[cstu]

You can come up with draft orders that are fairer than a serpentine draft, but IMO the very small increase in fairness is not worth the increase in complexity.

If you're willing to increase complexity in your league by a bit, do it by switching to an auction rather than by jumbling up the draft order. JMHO.

How is it much more complex? Anyone that has trouble with the double serpentine concept probably shouldn't be playing FF to begin with.

 

[cstu]

If you're willing to increase complexity in your league by a bit, do it by switching to an auction rather than by jumbling up the draft order. JMHO.

Auction is the only way to truly remove draft order variability. Being #5 this year is worse than being #3. That's not skill, that's luck.

I agree completely. Auction is the way to go. The only drawback is everyone has to be there.

And know what they're doing. Auctions are great but it can really be ruined if there is a large difference in FF skill.

 

[Verbal Kint]

For the past couple years, a couple guys in my redraft league have requested that we switch to a double serpentine draft, arguing that the guys who draft 8-12 generally have marginal teams compared to those who draft 1-4. In looking at the total points by division for the last couple years, there point is valid. the average team in division 3 has approx. 150 points less/season than the average team in division 1.

I'm interested to see if others do this in their leagues and what the results are. Does it balance out or swing it too much in favor of guys that draft last?

TIA

So the same guys that pick 1 - 4 win every year? If a team is scoring more points than the rest of the guys, wouldn't they be winning more therfore putting them at the bottom of the draft? I don't understand their point. I actually like picking at the bottom because there is always value there with the back to back picks. Sure it would be nice to have a top 4 pick, but would you rather have a top 4 pick or be winning?

Its a redraft, and each year's draft position is determined by lottery. Ususually the guys that draft in the top 4 have the best teams in terms of total points.

If I read this right, if I won your league I pick 1st? If so, why don't you just reverse it. If you win you pick last, or go to a lottery draw to see where everyone picks.

See above. There IS a lottery draw.

 

[hotboyz]

In my league we go random every odd round. 1 mos. before the draft we put everyones name into a draft order randomizer and we select random every other round. I think this makes for a really interesting draft and i think it's pretty fair. You could get the 1st pick of the draft then draft 12th in round 2 and then draft 10th in round 3 and so on heres the website:

http://www.profantasysports.com/draft_randomizer/

 

[Verbal Kint]

Thanks for e-mail FAVRE

 

[Fantasy Strategist]

Not a problem.

 

[perry147]

In my league we go random every odd round. 1 mos. before the draft we put everyones name into a draft order randomizer and we select random every other round. I think this makes for a really interesting draft and i think it's pretty fair. You could get the 1st pick of the draft then draft 12th in round 2 and then draft 10th in round 3 and so on heres the website:

http://www.profantasysports.com/draft_randomizer/

So instead of doing what is fair you do what is Random?Makes sense.

 

[Polish Hammer]

Last year we did this in our league for the first time. Keep in mind this is a group of guys that is hard to get to agree on ANYTHING. To a man, by the end of the year they all said they were glad I pushed so hard for it b/c it helped to even the teams off (to start).

Another twist we did was used for draft slotting. Traditionally we pull names out of a hat to get the order. This year, we pulled names out of a hat, but then the owners got to choose what slot they wanted in the order it came out of the hat. For example: say the first three names out of the hat were Joe, Bob, and Ron. Joe could choose draft slot 1 of 14, Bob could choose 14 out of 14, and Ron could choose slot 7 of 14. It just added another degree of fun to it.

 

[Cajun Cannon]

I like the idea of trying to create parity in draft slot values for owners. Does anyone have a draft slot valuation chart to use in adding the values up?

 

[Challenge Everything]

Using the FBG value chart for picks the numbers from a freelance article I saved were as follows:

Serpentine Total ValueValue 1 = 6,474 scoresValue 2 = 6,413 Value 3 = 6,354Value 4 = 6,304Value 5 = 6,255Value 6 = 6,215Value 7 = 6,184Value 8 = 6,153Value 9 = 6,129Value 10 = 6,112Value 11 = 6,097Value 12 = 6,090

Progressive Total ValueValue 1 = 6,370 scoresValue 2 = 6,328 Value 3 = 6,289Value 4 = 6,255Value 5 = 6,229Value 6 = 6,207Value 7 = 6,192Value 8 = 6,179Value 9 = 6,178Value 10 = 6,177Value 11 = 6,182Value 12 = 6,194

The gist is that the #1 pick still had a value advantage but that was because there was a lot of value, numerically, put on the first round/pick. The author used Double Serpentine to represent "Progressive" so that is the difference in terminology. The value is still at top and they have a numerical advantage but all in all... your disparity comes down to two things.First, the way the divisions are set up is not good. Why have picks 1-4 in the same division and picks 9-12 in the same one? Fix this error and things might turn out a little different.

Second, it comes down to the drafting and player movement along with players starting during the year. Maybe the top drafters know just a little bit more.

Lastly, a couple years ago I had the #1 pick and traded it for pick #12, #13 and held onto pick #25 for myself. I ended up running away with the league in points. I lost in the semis because of a dumb playoff setup however had the playoff setup been like the NFL I would have won the league. Those 3 picks I had early... none of them were RB's.

 

[Tick]

I got this put through in my old work league (which I've since left). Everyone liked it.

 

[Fantasy Strategist]

If your league doesn't want to go to an auction then this is by far the most fair to everyone, especially if you allow teams to pick their draft slot.

 

[TheLem]

We implemented a triple-serpentine league 7 years ago...now we are going to a contract league with auction.

we loved it...it was very interesting for trading preseason picks.

 

[OldMilwaukee]

Doesn't anyone trade anymore?

 

[cstu]

Lastly, a couple years ago I had the #1 pick and traded it for pick #12, #13 and held onto pick #25 for myself. I ended up running away with the league in points. I lost in the semis because of a dumb playoff setup however had the playoff setup been like the NFL I would have won the league. Those 3 picks I had early... none of them were RB's.

 

[Challenge Everything]

Lastly, a couple years ago I had the #1 pick and traded it for pick #12, #13 and held onto pick #25 for myself.  I ended up running away with the league in points. I lost in the semis because of a dumb playoff setup however had the playoff setup been like the NFL I would have won the league.  Those 3 picks I had early... none of them were RB's.

Dumbest use of that shirt ever. The purpose for it was what?

 

[mike11162]

I used to do the double serpentine in one of my leagues but no longer do. It didn't really make that much of a difference. It made things confusing more than any appreciable difference in the distribution of the players.