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Doug Martin 2014 (1 Viewer)

Is it dishonest to remove these outliers from our data? My initial reaction was to stay yes, of course it is wrong to remove outliers, they are part of the data set so their presence must have a purpose! Therefore removing these data points and going on to prove your hypothesis would be dishonest because in the absence of the outliers, the results presented aren’t your actual results. However I now believe outliers caused by anything but chance must be removed from the data set.

Some believe outliers shouldn’t be removed from the data set because as researchers we shouldn’t pick and choose which data points are include in results just because they don’t appear to fit with the rest of the results. In support of this, research has found that when humans have a strong belief about something, we subconsciously seek out belief consistent information and discard information contradicting our beliefs (Festinger, 1957). This is likely to affect our decision to remove outliers; if a researcher has a strong belief in their hypothesis (which is most likely) they may subconsciously remove data that disagrees with their hypothesis because they see them as outliers. In this case, removing outliers would be for the researcher’s personal gain i.e. a false significant result and a published research paper rather trying to finding a true significant result.

In conclusion, the researchers must use their discretion when deciding whether to remove outliers from their data. In my opinion the removal of outliers from data isn’t dishonest; outliers which are caused by anything but chance should be removed from the data set. However, because the removal of outliers is a subjective process, researchers should discuss the anomaly in the discussion section of their research project and justify why they have removed the outlier(s). This will prevent data being removed without just cause e.g. to enable researchers to prove their hypothesis. http://psychab.wordpress.com/2011/10/28/27/
Malcolm Gladwell made the topic trendy but outliers have been the bane of a statistical analyst’s existence all along. An outlier is essentially a number so far from the average (mean) that it seems out of place. In fantasy football we’re talking about statistical outputs that stand out from a player’s typical production.

For example, Doug Martin‘s 272 total yard, four touchdown performance in week nine against the Raiders; or for that matter his 33.4 fantasy point output the week prior. Anyone that was watching the game was blown away by Martin’s speed, vision, and Oakland’s tackling inefficiency. However, when you look at the numbers things just don’t add up. These outliers are performances that are hard to predict, and while Martin’s 50+ points in week nine was likely enough to win your weekly matchup, no one was predicting it and an argument can be made that it shouldn’t be considered when looking at his fantasy value for 2013. As such, it’s worth removing outliers when considering running back draft strategy overall.

Martin finished just ahead of Arian Foster in overall fantasy scoring last season as the #2 Running Back – but without his two standout efforts, he wouldn’t have been close. Foster was more or less steady – he had no monster games and very few underwhelming efforts either (except his 0.9 point effort in your fantasy championship week). Arguably, and without considering any other contextual factors, that makes Foster a better play. The big weeks are nice, but steady week to week output is really what you’re looking for from your RB1.

Weekly point outputs of 3, 5, 50, 6, 6 likely gets you a win in one week but puts you behind your opponents RB1 in four other contests. The average here is 14 points per contest. On the flip side, a back who scored 14 points week in and week out is dependable and is a weekly must start.

With that in mind, I took our top 12 consensus ranked running backs and removed any output that was more than ten points greater than their season average (replacing that number in the adjusted formula with their per game average number). I also tallied their ‘duds’ – games in which they scored fewer than six fantasy points.

The full data is here (Excel), do with it what you will (and, please feel free to share your comments below). My analysis follows below. It’s worth noting that unless a player was explicitly underused in week 17 those numbers were factored into the calculations.

  • If you watched Adrian Peterson last season you’d probably come away thinking that anything is possible and that even his outliers could be considered repeatable… still even when controlling for two 31+ point outputs Peterson’s per game average is still the best in the league.
  • As mentioned above, Foster takes the edge over Martin when you control for Arian’s 0 outlier performances and Martin’s two big ones. Martin was still the 6th most effective back on this list when we took more than 40 points off his totals so there is still plenty to like, but with just the one poorly timed dud Foster’s season was probably more useful to his fantasy owners (though given his later ADP Martin’s had more value). Foster was an incredibly steady back, posting less than 8.5 points just once.
  • It’s hard to hold it against him that he was part of Kansas City’s offense and he was employed erratically early in the season without sound explanation, but I’ll admit that this exercise made my reconsider my rank on Jamaal Charles. He posted three duds and is the third lowest per game scorer on this list when controlling for his 30+ point game against the Saints.
  • On the flip side of that conversation, it’s nice to have a reminder of the value of Ray Rice. He posted two duds (5 and 4 point games) against tough opponents but was more or less matchup proof. Maybe he does lose a couple of carries to Bernard Pierce this year, but he’s the third best on the list in controlled average and has been extremely consistent for years. If we’re drafting to avoid floor, Rice is as safe a pick as any and this exercise just adds weight to that notion.
  • CJ Spiller, LeSean McCoy, Steven Jackson and Matt Forte‘s contexts have all changed sufficiently that these numbers are not overly relevant. The latter two had no outliers of concern, anyhow. Nor did McCoy, though his numbers are skewed a bit by missing time to injury last season. Spiller’s first two weeks ended up being his best and his next two were his worst; beyond that he was remarkably consistent with just one week below 10 fantasy points from week five forward.
  • Marshawn Lynch lost one point per game from his average when accounting for a huge week 17, but otherwise was a value to his owners week in and out while posting just two weeks below nine fantasy points. His value is tied to crossing the chalk, but he does so more often than not.
  • Lastly, there are two more second year backs on our list. Alfred Morris is everyone’s darling, but our Mike Omelan warned against him as a bust candidate (relative to ADP at least). His 39.2 fantasy point effort in a playoff clinching game for the Redskins is an anomalous number. Controlling for this output costs Morris 1.5 points on his per game average and yet still his 13.95 ppg average is good for fourth best among the group. Plus he posted just one dud, missing the threshold by 0.1 points. Certainly last year’s production is nothing to cause anyone to shy away. Trent Richardson ranks as more of a risk when considering last year’s numbers, he had three games under six fantasy points and when controlling for his 2TD outlier in just his second career game he moves down a notch from the 6th to 7th highest back on the list. Still, when considering his injury issues and offensive changes he stands to improve on those numbers.
So there you have it – none of this is a reason to take a player off your draft board and if you anchor the position with a back who has a high floor from week-to-week then perhaps a player like Martin with clear week-to-week homerun potential becomes more appealing. Still, you can’t bank on the big weeks. In my running back draft strategy though I’m all about ensuring a safe floor with the early picks and that’s why Arian Foster remains my number two running back as opposed to the trendier picks in Charles and Martin. http://lockerroomfantasysports.com/running-back-draft-strategy-controlling-for-outliers-when-assessing-value/
 
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Did I think Jerome Harrison was great? No, but I don’t believe that stats tell the whole picture.

What I find silly is taking stats that as a whole support the opposite position, and then removing a whopping 251 yards as the basis for arguing that Doug Martin is not special.

I am not arguing that Doug Martin is in fact special. I am willing to listen to arguments from both sides (and there are good ones for both imo). I just find the extreme altering of stats in this way in order to support a position not to be credible.
Taking out one game from a player's career is hardly 'extreme' altering of stats. He was still above 4 YPC (4.1 YPC) without that game so even without it he was a good RB.

I also did the same looking at last year's stats - he had 3.6 YPC but without the Cardinals game (a top run defense) he had 4.1 YPC.

 
Its not that accumulating 251 in one game shouldn’t be looked at.

If one were to argue that Doug Martin is special because he averaged a whopping ___ yards per carry in 2012 and another were to challenge that assertion by pointing out that “Yes, he did average that, but 251 yards came in one game against a poor defense” (i.e., that the total stats don't paint the entire picture), I would consider that fact a data point to consider.

However, to argue that the stats show that Martin is pedestrian, but only after you remove 251 yards, then I take issue.

I think there is a difference in the two uses of the information.

 
Removing the big game puts him at an average of 16.2 in PPR--That would have been 5th best in 2012 :shrug:
Ah, see... here's the aggregate totals clouding people's judgment of talent. Same thing happens with QBs with a lot of attempts. Guys like Rivers who never get to throw the ball 600 times are seen as not as good as guys like Stafford who throw the ball 700 times. It's silly. Generally speaking, I expect a guy with the 5th most touches to score the 5th most points. There are other factors, such as goal line back and 3rd down duties, that will help propel a guy above players with similar touches to him. With Martin being the most targeted RB in 2012 (and on a similar pace in 2013), PPR will obviously favor him and still with what was probably an average of the 2nd or 3rd most touches, he would rank as 5th best in PPR. Take out PPR, which heavily favors 3rd down backs, and he probably falls farther down the ranks.

Getting the 2nd or 3rd most touches and putting up the 7th most points is about what we'd expect from a mediocre to good RB getting elite touches. What happens when a new (less stubborn/loyal) coach comes in an Martin is only getting the 14th most touches out of RBs? What happens if he's not seeing 4 targets a game? Did his skill erode or was he never that good to begin with?

 
the word outlier is being way overused here (and in sports statistics) in general.

The statistical definition of the word is much narrower in scope.

 
Removing the big game puts him at an average of 16.2 in PPR--That would have been 5th best in 2012 :shrug:
Ah, see... here's the aggregate totals clouding people's judgment of talent. Same thing happens with QBs with a lot of attempts. Guys like Rivers who never get to throw the ball 600 times are seen as not as good as guys like Stafford who throw the ball 700 times. It's silly. Generally speaking, I expect a guy with the 5th most touches to score the 5th most points. There are other factors, such as goal line back and 3rd down duties, that will help propel a guy above players with similar touches to him. With Martin being the most targeted RB in 2012 (and on a similar pace in 2013), PPR will obviously favor him and still with what was probably an average of the 2nd or 3rd most touches, he would rank as 5th best in PPR. Take out PPR, which heavily favors 3rd down backs, and he probably falls farther down the ranks.

Getting the 2nd or 3rd most touches and putting up the 7th most points is about what we'd expect from a mediocre to good RB getting elite touches. What happens when a new (less stubborn/loyal) coach comes in an Martin is only getting the 14th most touches out of RBs? What happens if he's not seeing 4 targets a game? Did his skill erode or was he never that good to begin with?
He was a rookie in 2012....

 
Did you not read the discussion above? :)

I always get a chuckle when others manipulate stats in this way to support their beliefs. This one was particularly amusing given the magnitude of what was being taken away, 251 yards!!! Its like the "take that away 80 yard run from CJ Spiller" talk. Good backs break big ones from time to time. Its part of what makes their averages good.

By taking away 25 carries for 251 yards, they essentially took away Doug Martin's 3 biggest runs of the year (since the rest of the game was below average). Adrian Peterson had pretty good stats last year averaging 4.5 ish yards per carry. Take away his 3 biggest runs from last year and his average dips to 3.9 yards per carry.

I have no problem with the opinion that Doug Martin is not special. But when you use stats that do not support that opinion and manipulate them in such a drastic way so that it does, that I find to be quite a stretch.
I took out 1 game...not best carries. Looking at 24 of 25 nfl games isn't Cherry picking
If someone had taken the three biggest runs from a guy from three different games on a player you like, chances are you would have cried foul...
I own Doug Martin in a dynasty league and I like him. However, i'm not going to ignore that he has not played like a top 5 RB in 24 of 25 games.

 
tdmills said:
msudaisy26 said:
tdmills said:
Bigboy10182000 said:
Odd scoring league?
Martin was 27th in PPG in 2013....no cherry picking there
Except for the fact he didn't play the entire season and in the beginning of the year the Bucs might have been the worst team in the league.
PPG= points per game
We all know but it was a small sample size.
So then I use 24 of his 25 NFL games and i'm cherry picking. Can't have it every way here.

 
So then I use 24 of his 25 NFL games and i'm cherry picking. Can't have it every way here.
Some of us can have it every way by actually using all of his games rather than excluding his 3 best runs. Its not always about the extremes.

 
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tdmills said:
msommer said:
tdmills said:
Ernol said:
Did you not read the discussion above? :)

I always get a chuckle when others manipulate stats in this way to support their beliefs. This one was particularly amusing given the magnitude of what was being taken away, 251 yards!!! Its like the "take that away 80 yard run from CJ Spiller" talk. Good backs break big ones from time to time. Its part of what makes their averages good.

By taking away 25 carries for 251 yards, they essentially took away Doug Martin's 3 biggest runs of the year (since the rest of the game was below average). Adrian Peterson had pretty good stats last year averaging 4.5 ish yards per carry. Take away his 3 biggest runs from last year and his average dips to 3.9 yards per carry.

I have no problem with the opinion that Doug Martin is not special. But when you use stats that do not support that opinion and manipulate them in such a drastic way so that it does, that I find to be quite a stretch.
I took out 1 game...not best carries. Looking at 24 of 25 nfl games isn't Cherry picking
If someone had taken the three biggest runs from a guy from three different games on a player you like, chances are you would have cried foul...
I own Doug Martin in a dynasty league and I like him. However, i'm not going to ignore that he has not played like a top 5 RB in 24 of 25 games.
What would it take to get him from you right now?

 
Removing the big game puts him at an average of 16.2 in PPR--That would have been 5th best in 2012 :shrug:
Ah, see... here's the aggregate totals clouding people's judgment of talent. Same thing happens with QBs with a lot of attempts. Guys like Rivers who never get to throw the ball 600 times are seen as not as good as guys like Stafford who throw the ball 700 times. It's silly. Generally speaking, I expect a guy with the 5th most touches to score the 5th most points. There are other factors, such as goal line back and 3rd down duties, that will help propel a guy above players with similar touches to him. With Martin being the most targeted RB in 2012 (and on a similar pace in 2013), PPR will obviously favor him and still with what was probably an average of the 2nd or 3rd most touches, he would rank as 5th best in PPR. Take out PPR, which heavily favors 3rd down backs, and he probably falls farther down the ranks.

Getting the 2nd or 3rd most touches and putting up the 7th most points is about what we'd expect from a mediocre to good RB getting elite touches. What happens when a new (less stubborn/loyal) coach comes in an Martin is only getting the 14th most touches out of RBs? What happens if he's not seeing 4 targets a game? Did his skill erode or was he never that good to begin with?
He was a rookie in 2012....
Ummm... ok? Was there a point? RB has historically had little to no learning curve. It's not like he plays QB. Edge... Portis... lots of guys have their best seasons in their first two years. Hell, Forte didn't surpass his rookie year until last year (6th season). Martin will almost certainly never top his rookie touch rate. He'll also probably never have another Oakland game to prop up his season totals. I'll be shocked if he ever lands in the top 5 again on a PPG basis.

Usually, the only thing holding rookies back is their touches. They typically get more touches as their coaches trust them more. However, that wasn't the case with Schiano. If you were a buccaneer man, then you'd get all the touches you could handle. In this case, that amounts to 86% of RB carries and 74% of RB receptions. Maybe I'm wrong and Lovie will employ the same loyalty and Martin will stumble upon another Oakland-esque defense. Probability is on my side, though.

 
I've never understood the "remove this, that and the other folks". Fact is football happens. Good matchups, ####ty defenses, superior line play... sure it all factors in. To suggest the removal of 3 or 4 big games over the course of a year is downright stupid. I don't mean to be mean about it but it just is. 4 games is 1/4th the season. That's like saying Miguel Cabrera is ####ty because he hit like #### in August and September. Granted his groin was hurt and its an extreme comparison but I think it gets the point across.

 
I've never understood the "remove this, that and the other folks". Fact is football happens. Good matchups, ####ty defenses, superior line play... sure it all factors in. To suggest the removal of 3 or 4 big games over the course of a year is downright stupid. I don't mean to be mean about it but it just is. 4 games is 1/4th the season. That's like saying Miguel Cabrera is ####ty because he hit like #### in August and September. Granted his groin was hurt and its an extreme comparison but I think it gets the point across.
I removed 1 game out of 25...1

 
Removing the big game puts him at an average of 16.2 in PPR--That would have been 5th best in 2012 :shrug:
Ah, see... here's the aggregate totals clouding people's judgment of talent. Same thing happens with QBs with a lot of attempts. Guys like Rivers who never get to throw the ball 600 times are seen as not as good as guys like Stafford who throw the ball 700 times. It's silly. Generally speaking, I expect a guy with the 5th most touches to score the 5th most points. There are other factors, such as goal line back and 3rd down duties, that will help propel a guy above players with similar touches to him. With Martin being the most targeted RB in 2012 (and on a similar pace in 2013), PPR will obviously favor him and still with what was probably an average of the 2nd or 3rd most touches, he would rank as 5th best in PPR. Take out PPR, which heavily favors 3rd down backs, and he probably falls farther down the ranks.

Getting the 2nd or 3rd most touches and putting up the 7th most points is about what we'd expect from a mediocre to good RB getting elite touches. What happens when a new (less stubborn/loyal) coach comes in an Martin is only getting the 14th most touches out of RBs? What happens if he's not seeing 4 targets a game? Did his skill erode or was he never that good to begin with?
He was a rookie in 2012....
Ummm... ok? Was there a point? RB has historically had little to no learning curve. It's not like he plays QB. Edge... Portis... lots of guys have their best seasons in their first two years. Hell, Forte didn't surpass his rookie year until last year (6th season). Martin will almost certainly never top his rookie touch rate. He'll also probably never have another Oakland game to prop up his season totals. I'll be shocked if he ever lands in the top 5 again on a PPG basis.

Usually, the only thing holding rookies back is their touches. They typically get more touches as their coaches trust them more. However, that wasn't the case with Schiano. If you were a buccaneer man, then you'd get all the touches you could handle. In this case, that amounts to 86% of RB carries and 74% of RB receptions. Maybe I'm wrong and Lovie will employ the same loyalty and Martin will stumble upon another Oakland-esque defense. Probability is on my side, though.
I must have missed your side....

Give me #'s for him this coming year...attempts, yards, receptions, recieving yards and total TD's. This should elminate a lot of the back and forth.

 
I've never understood the "remove this, that and the other folks". Fact is football happens. Good matchups, ####ty defenses, superior line play... sure it all factors in. To suggest the removal of 3 or 4 big games over the course of a year is downright stupid. I don't mean to be mean about it but it just is. 4 games is 1/4th the season. That's like saying Miguel Cabrera is ####ty because he hit like #### in August and September. Granted his groin was hurt and its an extreme comparison but I think it gets the point across.
I'm not sure why there are sides on this one. You construct a team based on projected points scored and trying to maximize them. You might be able to conclude a ceiling from that game, but not an expected rate of return. His PPG average including that game is not reflective of what you should expect on a week to week basis.

I mean, does anyone really believe they're going to get another Oakland game from him (assuming he isn't playing Oakland)?

Having said that, the "remove this" folks should also remove his worst game as well: the 2012 game against NO where he went 9 carries for 16 yards probably works, or if you want a higher amount of carries the 2013 ARI game where he went 27 for 45 should do the trick and even it up some.

 
I've never understood the "remove this, that and the other folks". Fact is football happens. Good matchups, ####ty defenses, superior line play... sure it all factors in. To suggest the removal of 3 or 4 big games over the course of a year is downright stupid. I don't mean to be mean about it but it just is. 4 games is 1/4th the season. That's like saying Miguel Cabrera is ####ty because he hit like #### in August and September. Granted his groin was hurt and its an extreme comparison but I think it gets the point across.
I'm not sure why there are sides on this one. You construct a team based on projected points scored and trying to maximize them. You might be able to conclude a ceiling from that game, but not an expected rate of return. His PPG average including that game is not reflective of what you should expect on a week to week basis.

I mean, does anyone really believe they're going to get another Oakland game from him (assuming he isn't playing Oakland)?

Having said that, the "remove this" folks should also remove his worst game as well: the 2012 game against NO where he went 9 carries for 16 yards probably works, or if you want a higher amount of carries the 2013 ARI game where he went 27 for 45 should do the trick and even it up some.
I think that is a fine thing to do as long as you do the same thing for all other players as well.

 
I've never understood the "remove this, that and the other folks". Fact is football happens. Good matchups, ####ty defenses, superior line play... sure it all factors in. To suggest the removal of 3 or 4 big games over the course of a year is downright stupid. I don't mean to be mean about it but it just is. 4 games is 1/4th the season. That's like saying Miguel Cabrera is ####ty because he hit like #### in August and September. Granted his groin was hurt and its an extreme comparison but I think it gets the point across.
I removed 1 game out of 25...1
I was more or less commenting on the progression these conversations always seem to take. The past is a predicator of the future and while players have an animoly and their is a regression to their mean I don't see how removing a performance can translate anything for the future. Like trying to take away homerun plays to prove that the player is lucky rather than good. Anyway I think Martin is pegged for another top 5 performance barring injuries (which can happen to any player).

 
I've never understood the "remove this, that and the other folks". Fact is football happens. Good matchups, ####ty defenses, superior line play... sure it all factors in. To suggest the removal of 3 or 4 big games over the course of a year is downright stupid. I don't mean to be mean about it but it just is. 4 games is 1/4th the season. That's like saying Miguel Cabrera is ####ty because he hit like #### in August and September. Granted his groin was hurt and its an extreme comparison but I think it gets the point across.
I'm not sure why there are sides on this one. You construct a team based on projected points scored and trying to maximize them. You might be able to conclude a ceiling from that game, but not an expected rate of return. His PPG average including that game is not reflective of what you should expect on a week to week basis.

I mean, does anyone really believe they're going to get another Oakland game from him (assuming he isn't playing Oakland)?

Having said that, the "remove this" folks should also remove his worst game as well: the 2012 game against NO where he went 9 carries for 16 yards probably works, or if you want a higher amount of carries the 2013 ARI game where he went 27 for 45 should do the trick and even it up some.
I think that is a fine thing to do as long as you do the same thing for all other players as well.
It's not really looking at the number though. It's literally dismissing two performances. PPG is a mean it has already factored out the good and the bad animoly or not... it happened.

 
If you take out Peyton Manning's 2004 and 2013 he is basically Tony Romo or Matt Stafford. Remember I am only taking out his 2 best years. He still has 14 other years of data.

 
If you take out Peyton Manning's 2004 and 2013 he is basically Tony Romo or Matt Stafford. Remember I am only taking out his 2 best years. He still has 14 other years of data.
Are you drafting him expecting 2004 or 2013? Don't the rest of the seasons actually make more sense to base your predictions on? I understand the stance you're taking but I highly suspect in practice you automatically discount those performances.

 
I've never understood the "remove this, that and the other folks". Fact is football happens. Good matchups, ####ty defenses, superior line play... sure it all factors in. To suggest the removal of 3 or 4 big games over the course of a year is downright stupid. I don't mean to be mean about it but it just is. 4 games is 1/4th the season. That's like saying Miguel Cabrera is ####ty because he hit like #### in August and September. Granted his groin was hurt and its an extreme comparison but I think it gets the point across.
I'm not sure why there are sides on this one. You construct a team based on projected points scored and trying to maximize them. You might be able to conclude a ceiling from that game, but not an expected rate of return. His PPG average including that game is not reflective of what you should expect on a week to week basis.

I mean, does anyone really believe they're going to get another Oakland game from him (assuming he isn't playing Oakland)?

Having said that, the "remove this" folks should also remove his worst game as well: the 2012 game against NO where he went 9 carries for 16 yards probably works, or if you want a higher amount of carries the 2013 ARI game where he went 27 for 45 should do the trick and even it up some.
I think that is a fine thing to do as long as you do the same thing for all other players as well.
It's not really looking at the number though. It's literally dismissing two performances. PPG is a mean it has already factored out the good and the bad animoly or not... it happened.
I know.

Personally I like to know a players upside. Stuff happens.

But taking out the best and worst results for the entire population would at least be comparing them on the same basis. Seems like extra work for little gain to me.

 
I've never understood the "remove this, that and the other folks". Fact is football happens. Good matchups, ####ty defenses, superior line play... sure it all factors in. To suggest the removal of 3 or 4 big games over the course of a year is downright stupid. I don't mean to be mean about it but it just is. 4 games is 1/4th the season. That's like saying Miguel Cabrera is ####ty because he hit like #### in August and September. Granted his groin was hurt and its an extreme comparison but I think it gets the point across.
I removed 1 game out of 25...1
I was more or less commenting on the progression these conversations always seem to take. The past is a predicator of the future and while players have an animoly and their is a regression to their mean I don't see how removing a performance can translate anything for the future. Like trying to take away homerun plays to prove that the player is lucky rather than good. Anyway I think Martin is pegged for another top 5 performance barring injuries (which can happen to any player).
I won't disagree, but it was that game that made his season special instead of in a group of RB's in the 5-10 range.

 
If you take out Peyton Manning's 2004 and 2013 he is basically Tony Romo or Matt Stafford. Remember I am only taking out his 2 best years. He still has 14 other years of data.
Are you drafting him expecting 2004 or 2013? Don't the rest of the seasons actually make more sense to base your predictions on? I understand the stance you're taking but I highly suspect in practice you automatically discount those performances.
That is point. You can't take out parts of someone performance and say oh look he is just ok if you take out this game or season, it just doesn't work that way.

 
msudaisy26 said:
biju said:
msudaisy26 said:
If you take out Peyton Manning's 2004 and 2013 he is basically Tony Romo or Matt Stafford. Remember I am only taking out his 2 best years. He still has 14 other years of data.
Are you drafting him expecting 2004 or 2013? Don't the rest of the seasons actually make more sense to base your predictions on? I understand the stance you're taking but I highly suspect in practice you automatically discount those performances.
That is point. You can't take out parts of someone performance and say oh look he is just ok if you take out this game or season, it just doesn't work that way.
Sure. But I personally wouldn't want to hang my hat on hoping for one blow-up game so I can win that one game. I'd prefer to have consistent results and if I'm picking Martin a round early because of a skewed PPG I won't receive, I'm not sure how that's helping my team.

This is why I'd prefer to take that game out. If it happens, great. But I want to buy on the excpected PPG, not the end of the year final tally. I guess if there's anything I can learn from myself here is that I prefer consistent results over someone with a high ceiling and fails to deliver to their draft status the rest of the season.

 
msudaisy26 said:
biju said:
msudaisy26 said:
If you take out Peyton Manning's 2004 and 2013 he is basically Tony Romo or Matt Stafford. Remember I am only taking out his 2 best years. He still has 14 other years of data.
Are you drafting him expecting 2004 or 2013? Don't the rest of the seasons actually make more sense to base your predictions on? I understand the stance you're taking but I highly suspect in practice you automatically discount those performances.
That is point. You can't take out parts of someone performance and say oh look he is just ok if you take out this game or season, it just doesn't work that way.
Sure. But I personally wouldn't want to hang my hat on hoping for one blow-up game so I can win that one game. I'd prefer to have consistent results and if I'm picking Martin a round early because of a skewed PPG I won't receive, I'm not sure how that's helping my team.

This is why I'd prefer to take that game out. If it happens, great. But I want to buy on the excpected PPG, not the end of the year final tally. I guess if there's anything I can learn from myself here is that I prefer consistent results over someone with a high ceiling and fails to deliver to their draft status the rest of the season.
What you write makes sense. I don’t think it was a matter of taking out a game for purposes of projecting stats going forward. Everyone has a different approach to projections. Some people take prior stats as they are, remove best and worst games, make situation adjustments, etc. All reasonable. Lots of factors go into projections. However, the use of the stats in question above was not an attempt to make adjustments to project a certain PPG going forward.

As I understood it, the assertion that was made was that Martin has not performed like a top back and the evidence provided were the incomplete stats.

 
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msudaisy26 said:
biju said:
msudaisy26 said:
If you take out Peyton Manning's 2004 and 2013 he is basically Tony Romo or Matt Stafford. Remember I am only taking out his 2 best years. He still has 14 other years of data.
Are you drafting him expecting 2004 or 2013? Don't the rest of the seasons actually make more sense to base your predictions on? I understand the stance you're taking but I highly suspect in practice you automatically discount those performances.
That is point. You can't take out parts of someone performance and say oh look he is just ok if you take out this game or season, it just doesn't work that way.
Well, you can, but you have to understand why you're doing it.There are certain types of players who are going to deliver more inconsistent week-to-week performances than others. If I draft a home-run hitter like Marvin Jones or a goal-line back like Blount, I'm not going to look at his PPG average and mentally pencil him in for that many points every week. I'm going to either make him a matchup play (rarely), or pair him with more consistent options at his position so that I can reap the upside without undue worry about the downside (more frequently).

Where people get into trouble is ascribing this sort of "boom or bust" tag to players who don't warrant it. Three-down RBs are very rarely models of inconsistency. If they appear to be inconsistent week-to-week over the course of a season, it's because 16 games is a pretty small sample size. You'll find a lot of statistical oddities in 16-game stretches that get ironed out over longer periods.

Don't believe me? Well, here's a question for you: Of all 55 fantasy RBs last year (2013) who amassed 70 or more points in MFL scoring, which one posted the LOWEST week-to-week standard deviation in scoring?

Give up?

It was Doug Martin (SD of 3.2ppg in his six games).

I know you don't believe me, so go run the numbers yourself.

Point being, if you think Doug Martin is a top-5 back, take him where he'll deliver value for you. If you think he's nothing more than a middling RB2, great, I can understand that too - avoid him. But either way, do it for the right reasons. Don't let the perception of "one big game" color your input either way.

 
Don't believe me? Well, here's a question for you: Of all 55 fantasy RBs last year (2013) who amassed 70 or more points in MFL scoring, which one posted the LOWEST week-to-week standard deviation in scoring?

Give up?

It was Doug Martin (SD of 3.2ppg in his six games).

I know you don't believe me, so go run the numbers yourself.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post but after I read it I went and compared Martin to Trent Richardson and noticed that Martin outscored him in 5 out of his 6 games. So that can't be right.

 
Josh Freeman - Gone. Can Josh McCown do better?

Pathetic OL to start 2013 - 2014 better?

Injury? Care to predict for 2014?

Change of coaching staff - Two back system? What role for RB2 in TBB?

These are to me the key questions (except the injury one) that one must consider if you want to use Doug Martin's 2013 season for anything - and potentially his 2012 season even.

And a lot more interesting than

damn lies and statistics
;)

 
Don't believe me? Well, here's a question for you: Of all 55 fantasy RBs last year (2013) who amassed 70 or more points in MFL scoring, which one posted the LOWEST week-to-week standard deviation in scoring?

Give up?

It was Doug Martin (SD of 3.2ppg in his six games).

I know you don't believe me, so go run the numbers yourself.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post but after I read it I went and compared Martin to Trent Richardson and noticed that Martin outscored him in 5 out of his 6 games. So that can't be right.
He was referring to his consistency (standard deviation).

 
Removing the big game puts him at an average of 16.2 in PPR--That would have been 5th best in 2012 :shrug:
Ah, see... here's the aggregate totals clouding people's judgment of talent. Same thing happens with QBs with a lot of attempts. Guys like Rivers who never get to throw the ball 600 times are seen as not as good as guys like Stafford who throw the ball 700 times. It's silly. Generally speaking, I expect a guy with the 5th most touches to score the 5th most points. There are other factors, such as goal line back and 3rd down duties, that will help propel a guy above players with similar touches to him. With Martin being the most targeted RB in 2012 (and on a similar pace in 2013), PPR will obviously favor him and still with what was probably an average of the 2nd or 3rd most touches, he would rank as 5th best in PPR. Take out PPR, which heavily favors 3rd down backs, and he probably falls farther down the ranks.

Getting the 2nd or 3rd most touches and putting up the 7th most points is about what we'd expect from a mediocre to good RB getting elite touches. What happens when a new (less stubborn/loyal) coach comes in an Martin is only getting the 14th most touches out of RBs? What happens if he's not seeing 4 targets a game? Did his skill erode or was he never that good to begin with?
He was a rookie in 2012....
Ummm... ok? Was there a point? RB has historically had little to no learning curve. It's not like he plays QB. Edge... Portis... lots of guys have their best seasons in their first two years. Hell, Forte didn't surpass his rookie year until last year (6th season). Martin will almost certainly never top his rookie touch rate. He'll also probably never have another Oakland game to prop up his season totals. I'll be shocked if he ever lands in the top 5 again on a PPG basis.

Usually, the only thing holding rookies back is their touches. They typically get more touches as their coaches trust them more. However, that wasn't the case with Schiano. If you were a buccaneer man, then you'd get all the touches you could handle. In this case, that amounts to 86% of RB carries and 74% of RB receptions. Maybe I'm wrong and Lovie will employ the same loyalty and Martin will stumble upon another Oakland-esque defense. Probability is on my side, though.
I must have missed your side....

Give me #'s for him this coming year...attempts, yards, receptions, recieving yards and total TD's. This should elminate a lot of the back and forth.
Bigboy10182000 said:
You first
I'd say:250 carries 1,115 yards 45 catches 420 yards and 10 total TD's. Roughly 258 point in PPR and 16 ppg

I do see them adding a short yardage guy but I feel he will still be the 3rd down RB
Numbers usually aren't necessary when you grade out a guy as a third to fourth round pick and everyone else is taking him in the first or early second, but I'll play along to the best of my ability (atm, I have no idea how things are going to play out with Lovie). But keep in mind that when running numbers in the offseason, we're predicting everyone to be healthy, so you can't compare the outcomes we come up with to the 2013 end of year stats because in 2013 a ton of guys got injured and didn't get their full 16 games in.

The numbers you mentioned were really hard for Forte to reach under Lovie, despite being what I'd consider a far superior talent to Martin. I also think Lovie has hurt his offenses in the past and have no clue how Tedford, who has no NFL experience, I believe, is going to work out. This team could easily be a dumpster fire once again. Either way, I'm going to guess at 220 carries @ 4.1 ypc = 902 yards 5 TDS, 45 rec x 6.5 ypr = 293 yds 0 TD. Just a hair under Forte's carries with a healthy amount of receptions, but using Martin's likely upside ypc of 4.1 rather than his bloated 4.6 from his rookie year (as discussed by others, 4.09 in non-Oakland games that year). Not great numbers. I think his upside is capped at 250/50 on touches, which would be huge, but again I'm talking about his ceiling. And I don't think he'll sniff 4.5 ypc unless he can teleport back to the 2005 Chiefs and even then it's a stretch.

FWIW, if you take out his best game (25/251) and worst game (27/45), you get 4.1 ypc for his career.

 
Don't believe me? Well, here's a question for you: Of all 55 fantasy RBs last year (2013) who amassed 70 or more points in MFL scoring, which one posted the LOWEST week-to-week standard deviation in scoring?

Give up?

It was Doug Martin (SD of 3.2ppg in his six games).

I know you don't believe me, so go run the numbers yourself.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post but after I read it I went and compared Martin to Trent Richardson and noticed that Martin outscored him in 5 out of his 6 games. So that can't be right.
He was referring to his consistency (standard deviation).
Yes, exactly. It was only 6 games, but all the same I found it highly amusing that the guy being labeled in this thread (and even prior to last season) as unreliable because "all his points came from two games" is the same guy who put up the single most consistent week-to-week scores among RBs last season.

What does that factoid mean? Nothing. Its statistical significance is virtually nil.

What does his high week-to-week deviation in 2012 mean? Not nothing, perhaps, but not a whole lot either. 16 games is a bigger sample size than 6, but not enough to draw any real conclusions.

I'm not arguing for or against Doug Martin, per se; I see him going in the RB10-12 range, which is right about where I feel he should be. Those who feel he should outperform that have good reasons why - his rookie performance, his measurables, his pass-catching ability, the Bucs improving on the offensive trainwreck they were last season. But those who feel he will underperform have good reasons of their own - new HC / OC, uncertainty at QB, additional competition for touches, an unimpressive 2013 even when healthy. I'm arguing your decision should be made based on those types of reasons, not on his averaging X points and x.x YPC if you remove this game or that game from his resume.

 
All this statistical back and forth.

Martin is going from being offensively coached by Schiano and QB'd by Freeman and Glennon, to being coached offensively by Tedford and QB'd by McCown. And it might be worth looking at the history of RBs under Lovie in CHI too. No matter what it's a whole other situation he's entering.

 
Don't believe me? Well, here's a question for you: Of all 55 fantasy RBs last year (2013) who amassed 70 or more points in MFL scoring, which one posted the LOWEST week-to-week standard deviation in scoring?

Give up?

It was Doug Martin (SD of 3.2ppg in his six games).

I know you don't believe me, so go run the numbers yourself.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post but after I read it I went and compared Martin to Trent Richardson and noticed that Martin outscored him in 5 out of his 6 games. So that can't be right.
He was referring to his consistency (standard deviation).
Yes, exactly. It was only 6 games, but all the same I found it highly amusing that the guy being labeled in this thread (and even prior to last season) as unreliable because "all his points came from two games" is the same guy who put up the single most consistent week-to-week scores among RBs last season.

What does that factoid mean? Nothing. Its statistical significance is virtually nil.

What does his high week-to-week deviation in 2012 mean? Not nothing, perhaps, but not a whole lot either. 16 games is a bigger sample size than 6, but not enough to draw any real conclusions.

I'm not arguing for or against Doug Martin, per se; I see him going in the RB10-12 range, which is right about where I feel he should be. Those who feel he should outperform that have good reasons why - his rookie performance, his measurables, his pass-catching ability, the Bucs improving on the offensive trainwreck they were last season. But those who feel he will underperform have good reasons of their own - new HC / OC, uncertainty at QB, additional competition for touches, an unimpressive 2013 even when healthy. I'm arguing your decision should be made based on those types of reasons, not on his averaging X points and x.x YPC if you remove this game or that game from his resume.
Good points overall. Regarding the bolded point, I have identified Doug Martin as presenting an unusual buy and sell opportunity because of the widely varying opinions on him. I've been approaching Doug Martin owners all off season taking their temperature on a possible trade. In a number of the leagues, the Doug Martin owner fell on the skeptical side of the argument and his purchase price was lower as a result. On the flip side, I have also been shopping him around in all the leagues in which I own him.

Recently in a PPR league, I bought Doug Martin for the 1.7, 1.12 and 2.04 (plus Donald Brown pre-SD signing), a pretty good price imo. I sold him days later along with the 1.11 for Josh Gordon. I sold him in another league for the 1.2 + a 2015 1st rounder. Last year, I bought Martin (post injury) for Blackmon (pre-suspension) and then weeks later flipped Martin and Tavon Austin for Dez Bryant.

Then again, buying and selling on a player can get a little risky if you yourself are not sold on the player. In one league, I acquired Martin near the trade deadline last year for Andre Ellington, Torrey Smith and a 2nd rounder on the anticipation of a hotter market for him in the offseason. I've had him on the trade block this entire offseason with no real bites, so it looks like I'm stuck with him unless and until he flashes again (not a bad place to be, but it does present its risks).

 
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Yes, exactly. It was only 6 games, but all the same I found it highly amusing that the guy being labeled in this thread (and even prior to last season) as unreliable because "all his points came from two games" is the same guy who put up the single most consistent week-to-week scores among RBs last season.
Martin was certainly reliable last year...for RB2 numbers. 13-14 PPG is nice, but it's not what people are expecting from their #1 RB.

 
New coach Lovie Smith endorsed Doug Martin as the Buccaneers' "bellcow" at the league meetings Wednesday.

Analysis: Smith described new OC Jeff Tedford's offense as "a running attack that can pass the football." Martin will be the lead dog, but "will have backup help." This is clearly going to be a run-first attack, Lovie's preferred approach complemented by a stout defense. Martin should be a shoo-in bounce-back fantasy RB1.
 
I have Zac Stacy ranked higher than Martin. I would feel very uncomfortable having Martin as my RB1 next year and it won't happen.

 
I have Zac Stacy ranked higher than Martin. I would feel very uncomfortable having Martin as my RB1 next year and it won't happen.
Funny, those are the two guys I have under contract (I know, no one cares). 16 team league.

 
The bad part about that is that even though Stacy plays 2XSeattle, 2XSF and 2XAriz I still have him ranked above Martin.

 
The bad part about that is that even though Stacy plays 2XSeattle, 2XSF and 2XAriz I still have him ranked above Martin.
I'd say the bad part about that is actually you ranking Stacy ahead of Martin in the first place. Martin hurt his shoulder -- his leg didn't fall off.

 

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